Image difference betw. #<100-nonX and #414? [Archive]

Michael Morlan

01-24-2008, 02:23 PM

I am heading into a shoot with two RED Ones; a non-X early camera and; my own #414 (if it arrives in time.)

What, if any, differences are there in image quality. There have been several firmware updates that have addressed image quality. Are these equal between the two cameras or are there hardware differences that would produce differing images?

Thanks,

Michael

Brook Willard

01-24-2008, 02:29 PM

Check in the footage section - people have shot tests between the cameras.

Jannard

01-24-2008, 04:41 PM

Primary image difference is unlocked in Build 15.

Several major features in Build 14.

Jim

Greg M

01-24-2008, 05:01 PM

I just received my "X" camera, and the difference between my previous non-X is noticeable.

LighthouseMEdia

01-24-2008, 05:34 PM

Greg,
I believe you were one who brought up the noise issues, and blue channel compression, have you seen increased performance in those areas?

Greg M

01-24-2008, 05:46 PM

I went from FW12 non X model to FW13 X model, so there was a firmware update in there as well + a REDCINE Update.

The noise levels has been improving and look noticeably better today, not sure if this is due to hardware, firmware, Red Cine or all three.

Overall the difference between my non X model that I shipped back to Red a few weeks ago and the new X-Red + the software improvements are dramatic. A good bit of the difference is due to the PL mount which resulted in a slightly soft image on my original camera. The new one is noticeably sharper.

LighthouseMEdia

01-24-2008, 05:49 PM

Dramatic is good Greg,
I for one wasn''t particularly happy with what I was seeing noise wise when we shot Red for a week. Here is hoping for even more improvement with S/N etc...in upcoming builds.

jbeale

01-24-2008, 05:51 PM

Primary image difference is unlocked in Build 15.
Several major features in Build 14.
Jim

Good to know. It sounds like my earlier tests on a Build 12 camera (which I'm a long way from finished with understanding) are going to be "old news" very quickly. I'm guessing it's too early to know if the image from Build 15 will be the standard going forward, or if Build 16, [...] will continue to make significant changes in the image.

Brook Willard

01-24-2008, 06:51 PM

Primary image difference is unlocked in Build 15.

Several major features in Build 14.

Jim

Knowing that the image updates happen in 15... I have to assume that the major features are simultaneous outputs.

Yes?

Yes!?

Rich Schaefer

01-24-2008, 09:43 PM

Edit - I just saw the schedule for Builds 14 & 15.

P.S. Awesome Camera, I am loving the images!

Jannard

01-24-2008, 10:45 PM

Build 15 will be the "last of the great builds"... everything after will be tweaks and bug spray.

Jim

sander kamp

01-24-2008, 11:16 PM

Will RGB recording be in built 15?

Michael Morlan

01-24-2008, 11:32 PM

Thanks for the detailed responses everyone.

Michael

vincelucero

01-25-2008, 12:07 AM

Build 15 will be the "last of the great builds"... everything after will be tweaks and bug spray.

Jim

LOL. We keep bug spray in our AKS box mandatory here in HI. I love that you have a sense of humor. Aloha.

Jannard

01-25-2008, 01:21 AM

Will RGB recording be in built 15?

RGB recording is in a future build. We consider this a minor build. One that is truly worthless.

Jim

Gunleik Groven

01-25-2008, 01:37 AM

RGB recording as in SDI outputs @ 1080?

I thought that had dived into oblivion, but if it hasn't - it's not minor

Gunleik

SF Geek

01-25-2008, 01:39 AM

If there were to be an Apple Pro Res format option, it would be truly priceless. No transcoding.

Gunleik Groven

01-25-2008, 01:44 AM

If there was single hd-sdi out @ 1080, you would have an option to record directly to ProRes or uncompressed @ 4:2:2.
Heck, you could even record HDV if you insist :)

& you could put the cam into a studio configuration (@ least if the diferent outputs are not only hot, but can be alternately with or without camera info overlays)

All in glorious HDV or downconverted live SD - if you so feel inclined.

Gunleik

SF Geek

01-25-2008, 01:48 AM

I heard that the SDI outs from the RED did not provide a quality downres, at least not good enough to record.

Jannard

01-25-2008, 01:48 AM

Jannard

01-25-2008, 01:52 AM

I heard that the SDI outs from the RED did not provide a quality downres, at least not good enough to record.

SF... did you also hear that it is a $17,500 camera shooting features?

Jim

SF Geek

01-25-2008, 02:01 AM

I know that this topic presses your buttons, but the truth is, there are still a lot of Red customers who have clients that would like a 1080 master that they can leave with at the end of the day. Until either the transcode times are at a rate that this is possible or we can record in a 1080 Pro Res, DVCPRO HD, or HD Cam format, it will be something that's asked for. If I own the Red I would rather get my rental for that than go with a different camera system.

Gunleik Groven

01-25-2008, 02:03 AM

Your coughing is fully understandable! -:)

And I've stated many times: The cam comes as it comes and we all bought into that!

BUT, this forum is in all practicallity to express our different wishes, and this is mine :)

You don't have to tell me I can get a refund, I won't take it. And that's far besides the point.

The good thing is actually the concentration of features and slightly giving up the "End to all for all purposes" initially envisioned. A slightly slimmer feature set ( even though by no means "no fat" :) ) might be easier perfected.

BUT: It wasn't us that announced the 1080 4:4:4 spec :)

Speculation mode on:
My bet would be on the "Red playout box" so far not really announced, but quite heavily implied in some of the future product-developments (4k projectors, screens, deliverysystems). My guess is that there's where we will get this opportunity, if there is some way to play out the signal from the Red to it. Could be through the same tap that delivers signal to the Red-drive. You'd get a way with a couple of seconds delay...

Or using the dual HD-SDI's for data delivery instead of RGB.

Either way, I guess this might happen or it might not - like anything Red.

Cheers and endorsement and respect and all that

Gunleik

Dylan Reeve

01-25-2008, 02:03 AM

Hrvoje Simic

01-25-2008, 02:04 AM

We hope that the RED ONE will be appreciated for what it is, what it does and the the price that it does it...

It already is. By the vast majority.
Enjoy the ride, Jim. :-)

Jannard

01-25-2008, 02:06 AM

Jim... I would like you to record DNxHD, on the SD card (the big cheap cards too). Can you please expand Avid's DNxHD format to support 4k? You'll need to reengineer Avid's NLEs to support that too. Next week please? I have a job booked!

Also, can you send me a few hundred dollar? My wedding anniversary is coming up, I'd like to spoil my wife a little.

We will have a discussion with Avid soon. Until we have a solution for you... just don't place an order. We are easy to understand. As soon as we have a solution, we'll certainly post.

Jim

Dylan Reeve

01-25-2008, 02:09 AM

We will have a discussion with Avid soon. Until we have a solution for you... just don't place an order. We are easy to understand. As soon as we have a solution, we'll certainly post.

Jim

My post was heavily laced with sarcasm, sorry about that...

What about my few hundred dollars?

I like what's there now. I can't wait to see more - definitely looking forward to better Avid support.

Gunleik Groven

01-25-2008, 03:26 AM

LOL

Gunleik

Greg M

01-25-2008, 06:00 AM

mezmo

01-25-2008, 07:18 AM

From discussions I remember, the camera has to record 1080p so it can
fall out the back via SDI ports.
This build would have to switch from RAW to 1080 or be a dedicated
1080 build for 1080 shooters only.
Probably not big on the list at the moment inside RED HQ.
Mezmo

Zach Hilton

01-25-2008, 07:40 AM

Please excuse us if we cough at some of these requests... we have given 4K recorded to CF. We have given way more than we ever promised. We have moved the market in quality, convenience and price point. Certainly there is more we can do. But whatever we do the list of requests will continue.

We hope that the RED ONE will be appreciated for what it is, what it does and the the price that it does it...

Jim

No complaints here. Excited and anxiously awaiting delivery...oh, and the loan :)

SF Geek

01-25-2008, 11:04 AM

at the "end of the day"? Why would the client need or expect a 1080 master at the end of the day? A master of what? raw footage?

No. Not Raw footage. 1080 RGB in a format that they're used to (DVC Pro HD, HD Cam, Pro Res. And the reason they want the stuff at the end of the day is that they're going back home, wherever that is, and doing the post production. They don't want to deal with Raw.

Dave Weber

01-25-2008, 11:16 AM

No. Not Raw footage. 1080 RGB in a format that they're used to (DVC Pro HD, HD Cam, Pro Res. And the reason they want the stuff at the end of the day is that they're going back home, wherever that is, and doing the post production. They don't want to deal with Raw.

Might I suggest an HVX-200 or an F-900 etc ... if your clients need to walk with footage ready to use. I think RED should be treated as a Film camera hence the name Digital Cinema Camera.

Chris Parker

01-25-2008, 11:17 AM

Wait till next year this time when we can all work natively with .r3d files in Final Cut, Adobe, and yes....AVID.

Then the 1080 output at day's end will be a moot point.

I'm with you Jim. Keep working on improving the 4K REDCODE to the CF Cards. And don't forget, when those cards are up to 32, 64.....128GB each, go for less compression, higher quality. All at 4K.

And in time....give us higher framerates at 4K...with a juicy NEW sensor that slips in to the old camera body.

Oh yeah, and give us 4K monitors too.

Render obsolescence obsolete. Don't worry about the 1080 output. That's worrying too much about the NOW, and not enough about the future.

I like how you think. I like the camera you have offered. I fucking LOVE the price point. You have allowed many manny many many people (like say...90% of this forum) to offer quality high enough to make a big budget feature film, for a price that we can afford. You have changed the game. I see that. I appreciate that. I still want more...always will. It's your fault though, for giving us so much in the first place.

See ya at NAB.

Greg M

01-25-2008, 11:29 AM

No. Not Raw footage. 1080 RGB in a format that they're used to (DVC Pro HD, HD Cam, Pro Res. And the reason they want the stuff at the end of the day is that they're going back home, wherever that is, and doing the post production. They don't want to deal with Raw.

Then you are shooting with the wrong camera...or better yet, its time to educate your clients. Explain the benefit of shooting RAW and why bringing home a 1080 tape of the raw footage from this camera is a waste of a resource.

SF Geek

01-25-2008, 03:11 PM

Sure another camera might be better in that case as of right now, but since the Red will be the camera I invest in I would always try to get a rental rate on it.

Don't get me wrong Greg. I will be selling both the camera and the workflow, but from my experience producers don't always listen to me, regardless of whether it's in their best interest or not.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

01-25-2008, 03:25 PM

Then you are shooting with the wrong camera...or better yet, its time to educate your clients. Explain the benefit of shooting RAW and why bringing home a 1080 tape of the raw footage from this camera is a waste of a resource.

The RAW rendering process and workflow is too slow at present day.
Commercials need to be finished within 1-2 days. Not a week.

Chris Parker

01-25-2008, 03:28 PM

The RAW rendering process and workflow is too slow at present day.
Commercials need to be finished within 1-2 days. Not a week.

Correct me if I am wrong Mark, but I bet offhollywood could turn around RED footage overnight....if needed.

as could any good processing facility with the proper workstations. no need to wait 2 days, is there?

and people please, can we just wait until NAB where there are going to be countless workflow revelations....

Joe D'Arcy

01-25-2008, 03:43 PM

SF... did you also hear that it is a $17,500 camera shooting features?

Jim

And for that I am eternally grateful.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

01-25-2008, 03:57 PM

Correct me if I am wrong Mark, but I bet offhollywood could turn around RED footage overnight....if needed.

as could any good processing facility with the proper workstations. no need to wait 2 days, is there?

and people please, can we just wait until NAB where there are going to be countless workflow revelations....

Clients don´t want overnight, they want NOW.
HDCAM is "now".
DVCPRO HD is "now".
Film is overnight, and that´s the reason producers are moving to digital.

In our facilities exporting DPXs at full quality render at 90x times.

Kenn Michael

01-25-2008, 04:51 PM

90x times!!!!

I'm getting at most 11x with a new MacPro 2.8 8 Core (with the really slow video card)

Not to say that 11x is acceptable, but 90x is really really really slow.

Gunleik Groven

01-25-2008, 05:26 PM

Is that to DPX full-raster?

Gunleik

Kenn Michael

01-25-2008, 06:27 PM

11x is for ProRes HQ.

15x for 2K 2:1 DPX with full processing quality.
22x for 4K 2:1 DPX with full processing quality.

More than 11x but way less than 90x.

If I use standard processing quality, it's 5x for ProRes HQ 2048x1024...

When converting the 2K QT proxy from 4K footage to ProRes HQ at 2048x1024, it's about 3.84x

I've used these 2K proxy ProRes conversions to great result. Detail level is great (actually sharper than outputing full res from RedCine due to the quicker demosaic and halved res) and latitude is great. No color banding, and the footage holds up fantastically in color correct if you're not doing super craziness.

Ethan Cooper

01-25-2008, 07:38 PM

Please excuse us if we cough at some of these requests... we have given 4K recorded to CF. We have given way more than we ever promised. We have moved the market in quality, convenience and price point. Certainly there is more we can do. But whatever we do the list of requests will continue.

We hope that the RED ONE will be appreciated for what it is, what it does and the the price that it does it...

Jim

I was wondering when that was coming. I'm surprised it took this long. You're a more patient man than I, Mr. Jannard.
________
FORD CLASSIC SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Classic)

Ed Watkins

01-25-2008, 07:46 PM

Clients don´t want overnight, they want NOW.
HDCAM is "now".
DVCPRO HD is "now".
Film is overnight, and that´s the reason producers are moving to digital.

In our facilities exporting DPXs at full quality render at 90x times.

HDCAM and DVCPRO HD are not "now" if you count the time it takes to capture the tapes. The only "now" format is P2 or XDCAM, and both still need to be logged and transferred. Clients feel happy with the HDCAM and DVCPRO because they get to have the tapes in their hand "now" and it feels safe. But, they still have to post it later.

RED footage is just as "now" for QT proxies, and I'd say that's pretty darn good. It's only 2 1/2 years ago that I remember off-lining all our HD because the FCP work flow wasn't there yet.

That said, I understand where you are coming from. I think it will be a challenge to persuade some clients of the benefits over the perceived costs. But it will get easier. I for one am really excited about what RED has achieved.

Dylan Reeve

01-25-2008, 11:34 PM

The fact is this is a different workflow. Clients will need to understand that.

As far as they are concerned it fits somewhere between film and video really. It requires some processing before it can be used for final post really. However you have things like the proxy files that make it more video than film.

At present I believe it should be possible to make SD/HD dubs from the proxy files in fairly short order from a good FCP suite (although I haven't tried it so far - and I find things I think should be easy in FCP rarely are).

People are going to have to be willing to work a little different. But they'll get used to it, and tools and workflow will get better. We're right on the leading edge of this technology.

mezmo

01-26-2008, 05:40 AM

It's very hard to shove R3d P2 and XDcam files down the throat of
clients that don't want them. In the TVC area this can be even more of a problem.
Many TVC clients will go straight from a tape shoot to an all night edit and
grade to get a job ready for approval/broadcast all in a matter of days
or even hours. Agencies tend to leave it to the last minute to
produce an Ad.
A 1080p friendly Red with tape deck for record would be handy for some
Red owners when you think about it in the TVC world. The main attraction
for TVC would be 35mm FOV/DOF at a cost less than Super 16, providing
Red 1080p had a quick turnaround post wise.
I'm not so convinced about OB , Red may be a little too fussy in the
focus area for this kind of work with the operator pulling sharps.
Mezmo

Michele Gavazzeni

01-28-2008, 12:03 AM

Commercials need to be finished within 1-2 days. Not a week.
Project differs one to another there are no rules.
Red like Dalsa or Genesis workflow are close to film workflow and are time consuming.
But can give also far better results compared to HDCAM or DVCPRO products.

Different clients different needs and expectations.

Michele Gavazzeni

01-28-2008, 12:06 AM

Film is overnight
In my dreams I'm ready to deliver film overnight

Greg M

01-28-2008, 07:14 AM

The RAW rendering process and workflow is too slow at present day.
Commercials need to be finished within 1-2 days. Not a week.

damn, I usually have 1-2 weeks to finish mine.

Of course we all want it NOW!! But Red should be considered more like a film workflow. Yes you can get it overnight (film), but thats ONLY the processing. We actually have the processing instantly (on Red) with the QT proxies.

With film you still typically do your offline, then final color grading which usually doesnt happen till at least 2-3 days after you finish shooting (or processing your film).

We will have faster solutions soon, this thing is still a baby.

For the few commercials we have shot so far, I was able to turn them around quicker than a typical 35mm project. We started offlining proxies the same day of the shoot. Processed selects overnight, and started on-line the next day. But of course this was a learning process.

Øystein Mamen, FNF

01-28-2008, 07:58 AM

Hi Kenn,
which of the slow-working graphic cards DID you use? BTW, thank you very much for posting the times!

Mark Crabtree

01-28-2008, 09:56 AM

Sure, if you think you are going to shoot a one hour show redcode raw and output a master the next day you are wrong. But if you want to shoot a TV spot and dub out the next day, that's easy. You just edit with the proxy quicktimes then render using redcine the 30 seconds you need for the final product. A couple of hours render at most. I have a spot running right now that the client is thrilled about. We wrapped the shoot at 10pm and had dubs to the stations by 3pm the next day. For features and spots this camera is cream. For shows, you'll need more computers and people, or more time. But even this will change as things progress.

Columbus

01-28-2008, 10:11 AM

I don't see why shooting on red should be slower than shooting on hdcam.
Red camera process.
Shoot
Edit with offline proxies straight away
Edl goes to scratch, conform and grade, output to tape.
no waiting to digitize tapes for offline and no waiting again to digitize tapes for online conform. pretty simple really when compared to tape.