Grading Monitors - any recommendations?

[Fabian Weber]

I'm looking for a new grading monitor - any recommendations?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What is your budget? What size of monitor are you looking for? How do you plan on feeding it / what type of signal?

[Matt Gottshalk]

FSI.

/Thread.

[Tom.Wong]

for a 5k ish panel, my money is always on the sony pvm-2541


once you go oled...

[Johnny Friday]

i went through a few low budget monitors....from Dell 2407 to 2410 and then HP dreamcolor and finally settled on FSI 3g 10bit monitor and very happy. BUT, there are better if you have more $$$...i go with a setup of: desktop monitoring: 2410 and Dreamclolor; then 50" Panasonic Plsma VT25 series (great monitor by the way--BUT PIECE of crap panasonic and warranty--many problems with these VIERRA series monitors)---then FSI 2461W on SDI....HP is set to B&W and others to color...to get a good represntation of different views....which you will need if going tv, web etc.....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If you're looking for a desktop monitor, the FSI 2461W is a good one. Personally, I like the image a bit better on the EIZO CG232W and it has good calibration tools built in. The FSI has the nicest internal scopes, IMO, if you use the monitor scopes to double-check your output.

As we get into larger monitors, the Panasonic VT25 series is very good for a plasma, but they're getting hard to find now as they're 2 years old. The VT30 replaced them and it is now being replaced by the next generation model. VT30 displays seem to have a brighter image and therefore better contrast, however it tends to auto-dim in really bright scenes as the panel can only output so much power, it steps down the brightness. There are the "pro" series panels in the form of the BT300 models. They're actually VT25 (PDP13) generation panels. You pay a bit more for them and they don't support 3D and have a few other features removed that cripple them somewhat. Essentially the same calibration and adjustment controls between the BT300 and VT25. The only "advantage" to the BT300 models is that you can add the HD-SDI interface module, but it costs $2500 -- as much as the 50" display on it's own. Kinda stupid, IMO. The AJA Hi5-3G [or 3D] model will take HD-SDI, even 3G or dual-link and output 10bit HDMI. Works wonderfully and totally seamless and less than $500.

I do agree with Tom about the OLED displays. But I'm going to hold out for another generation or two down the road. To my eyes, even on the much more expensive model, Sony has still not completely fixed the flicker issue and a few other little glitches. But the image is excellent.

If you want to go bigger than the plasmas at 65" or so -- actually Panasonic's 85" is not too bad price-wise for something that big and you can still wall-mount it in most situations. Anyway, going bigger than that, you'll want to look into a good projector. Several good options out there for 1080p/2K systems, but it looks like RED is going to have a winner if they can get that 4K laser projector in our hands later this year or early next year.

[keith morton]

Personally, I like the image a bit better on the EIZO CG232W and it has good calibration tools built in.




What do you think about the EIZO CG275W?

[Tom.Wong]

If you're looking for a desktop monitor, the FSI 2461W is a good one. Personally, I like the image a bit better on the EIZO CG232W and it has good calibration tools built in. The FSI has the nicest internal scopes, IMO, if you use the monitor scopes to double-check your output.

As we get into larger monitors, the Panasonic VT25 series is very good for a plasma, but they're getting hard to find now as they're 2 years old. The VT30 replaced them and it is now being replaced by the next generation model. VT30 displays seem to have a brighter image and therefore better contrast, however it tends to auto-dim in really bright scenes as the panel can only output so much power, it steps down the brightness. There are the "pro" series panels in the form of the BT300 models. They're actually VT25 (PDP13) generation panels. You pay a bit more for them and they don't support 3D and have a few other features removed that cripple them somewhat. Essentially the same calibration and adjustment controls between the BT300 and VT25. The only "advantage" to the BT300 models is that you can add the HD-SDI interface module, but it costs $2500 -- as much as the 50" display on it's own. Kinda stupid, IMO. The AJA Hi5-3G [or 3D] model will take HD-SDI, even 3G or dual-link and output 10bit HDMI. Works wonderfully and totally seamless and less than $500.

I do agree with Tom about the OLED displays. But I'm going to hold out for another generation or two down the road. To my eyes, even on the much more expensive model, Sony has still not completely fixed the flicker issue and a few other little glitches. But the image is excellent.

If you want to go bigger than the plasmas at 65" or so -- actually Panasonic's 85" is not too bad price-wise for something that big and you can still wall-mount it in most situations. Anyway, going bigger than that, you'll want to look into a good projector. Several good options out there for 1080p/2K systems, but it looks like RED is going to have a winner if they can get that 4K laser projector in our hands later this year or early next year.

New firmware out for the oleds. Totally flicker free. Hard for me to look at any other monitor these days....

[Matt Ryan]

just out of curiosity what does everyone think about Vizio LED tv's? Are they able to be calibrated correctly? They were using Vizio's http://store.vizio.com/led-lcd-hdtvs/m3d470kd.html240hz (http://store.vizio.com/led-lcd-hdtvs/m3d470kd.html) passive 3d LED's.

The reason I ask is because I shot something at THE top video game company (well for SONY) and every one of their workstations uses a Vizio tv as their reference monitor. Everyone... Some doing color work, some textures, some character design, all dependent on accurate color right... I know they are cheap and not used in the film industry often especially for color critical work but this made me wonder...

[Paul Russell]

Love my Panasonic 65" Plasma. Unfortunately so do the family, so I have to only use it as a final test in the lounge.

[Johnathan Guest]

I'm currently using a 2x Dell 24" monitors (a 2407 and a 2410) for normal displays then have a Sony 17" PVM-1741 for grading and a Panasonic 50" TH-P50VT30 for client review.

The Sony OLED is awesome. But I need to get the 25" variant so I have a monitor for when the 17" is on set.

[Tom.Wong]

Fsi just came out with a stellar 10 bit 17 inch panel as well. If budget is over 3k but not in the 5's i say go for that. At 5k oled all the way. If under 3k dreamcolor or eizo with converter box. I dont really like grading over dvi as a gui monitor. I like the piece of mind of getting a qualified pure broadcast signal out of an i/o card. Dell ultrasharps for the money make amazing gui monitors. Right now my dreamcolor is my gui, and oled as my critical color panel. Other than the black levels it keeps things looking pretty consistant from ur interface to ur output.

I wanna trade up fornthe eizo though cause as jeff said it has a great self calibrate tool built in. Busting out a separate probe all the time gets old fast....

[Fabian Weber]

What is your budget? What size of monitor are you looking for? How do you plan on feeding it / what type of signal?

Thanks for all your informations guys!
I'm looking for a 10bit HD-SDI (dual) - 20" to 27"! My budget is arround 5K.

I never worked with the Sony OLED's and had the same feeling like you... with the new firmwire update i'm not so sure any more!
Friends in Berlin work with the low-priced Dreamcolor and are happy.

The EIZO CG232W is also an option for me! I never worked with FSI...

[Norbert Jalitsch]

for a 5k ish panel, my money is always on the sony pvm-2541


once you go oled...

+1

i have seen that display and i am in love since then...
such a quality for such a low price !!!

it will not be easy to find an equivalent option for this device...

[Tom.Wong]

+1

i have seen that display and i am in love since then...
such a quality for such a low price !!!

it will not be easy to find an equivalent option for this device...

it gets you in trouble sometimes though, sadly it won't look that good again except on another oled. human eyes haven't seen such black levels in a display since the CRT days, and barely anybody remembers what a CRT looks like. so sometimes i get clients who think something is wrong with their footage looking at the footage that looked great to them on my panel but just became so underwhelming in comparison... If you don't wanna deal with those issues I say if you got 5k, go for FSI all the way. a billion and one features, EXCELLENT panel. performs very similar to the dreamcolor, black levels are a touch better, and you have full raster hdsdi input and outputs with all display color spaces built in, and exposure tools.

[Marc Wielage]

I'm looking for a new grading monitor - any recommendations?
I would visit the post facilities in your part of the world and see what they're using in London, Germany, France, Spain, and Italy. Ideally, I think a color-correction room should be purpose-built, designed specifically for optimum viewing by clients and the colorist. The ambient lighting has to be controlled, and I'd prefer to have lighting sources at 6500K when possible, with the room at dimly-lit (but not necessarily pitch-black) levels. I think for TV shows, a 50" Panasonic 30-series or 300-series plasma can do very well, provided it's been precisely calibrated to Rec709. These have quickly become the standard for network TV delivery all over LA. The viewing angle for LCD isn't as flexible as it is for plasma, but there are exceptions; the Dolby PRM-4200 is absolutely dynamite and looks very, very good. (For $35K, it should.)

For theatrical, there are tons of great DLP projectors out there. In this case, so much depends on the specific screen being used, the viewing angle, the seating positions, the room lighting, the size of the room, and so on... it's hard to get into generalities. Choice of monitor LUTs is also a huge subject, particularly for D-cinema and D.I. film-outs.

To me, the key is making the clients comfortable with what they see, and make the room as efficient as possible in terms of getting to the controls, giving everyone a good look at the monitor, and making sure that the picture will translate reasonably well to other kinds of monitors. Understanding and implementing monitor calibration is a large part of that.

[Fabian Weber]

I would visit the post facilities in your part of the world and see what they're using in London, Germany, France, Spain, and Italy. Ideally, I think a color-correction room should be purpose-built, designed specifically for optimum viewing by clients and the colorist. The ambient lighting has to be controlled, and I'd prefer to have lighting sources at 6500K when possible, with the room at dimly-lit (but not necessarily pitch-black) levels. I think for TV shows, a 50" Panasonic 30-series or 300-series plasma can do very well, provided it's been precisely calibrated to Rec709. These have quickly become the standard for network TV delivery all over LA. The viewing angle for LCD isn't as flexible as it is for plasma, but there are exceptions; the Dolby PRM-4200 is absolutely dynamite and looks very, very good. (For $35K, it should.)

For theatrical, there are tons of great DLP projectors out there. In this case, so much depends on the specific screen being used, the viewing angle, the seating positions, the room lighting, the size of the room, and so on... it's hard to get into generalities. Choice of monitor LUTs is also a huge subject, particularly for D-cinema and D.I. film-outs.

To me, the key is making the clients comfortable with what they see, and make the room as efficient as possible in terms of getting to the controls, giving everyone a good look at the monitor, and making sure that the picture will translate reasonably well to other kinds of monitors. Understanding and implementing monitor calibration is a large part of that.

Perfect - thanks a lot Marc!

[Mark Toia]

I'm looking for a new grading monitor - any recommendations?

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/product-PVM2541/

These rock! but! the only problem with them is no other TV in the world has blacks like it... So what ever you grade on this you will not see the same on any other monitor you view it on.

The only monitor close to these are the new LED MAC screens.

[Marc Wielage]

The Sony BVM's (shown at NAB) are "allegedly" better than the PVM series. Again, not cheap -- I think they were $17K, last time I checked.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/channels-monitors_displays/

[Gunleik Groven]

After ditching a lot of OLED, Plasmas, LCDs and different panels when building 4 new grading suites, the TVLogic 325W ended up as our choice. Also because the price is such that it is replaceable.

I wasn't involved in the process, but we tried pretty much everything and ended up with this and a dolby panel. Price made that decission kind of rational...

[Fabian Weber]

After ditching a lot of OLED, Plasmas, LCDs and different panels when building 4 new grading suites, the TVLogic 325W ended up as our choice. Also because the price is such that it is replaceable.

I wasn't involved in the process, but we tried pretty much everything and ended up with this and a dolby panel. Price made that decission kind of rational...

Interesting - how much is the TVLogic 325W?

[Fabian Weber]

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/product-PVM2541/

These rock! but! the only problem with them is no other TV in the world has blacks like it... So what ever you grade on this you will not see the same on any other monitor you view it on.

The only monitor close to these are the new LED MAC screens.


Thanks for the input Mark - i vary between the "Sony PVM2541" and "EIZO CG232W" ...

[Gunleik Groven]

Interesting - how much is the TVLogic 325W?


Not sure, really...

here's the productsheet:
http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/product.php?idx=68

But I think in the ballpark of 12k Euro...

which would be about right when comparing to this:
http://www.preco.net/tvlogic/tvlogic_prices.html

[Jerrod Cordell]

So I'm looking for a monitor on the low end of the price spectrum. ~$500 or so.

Which do you believe is a better option? The Dell u2410, or a 24" Apple LED Cinema Display from Amazon?

EDIT: Or the older 23" Apple Cinema Display?

[Lauri Kettunen]

I wonder how many will end up using Red projector as a grading "monitor".

[Maz Mawlawi]

I would also seriously consider the hp 24inch dreamcolor if you are on a tight budget...

[Gunleik Groven]

I would also seriously consider the hp 24inch dreamcolor if you are on a tight budget...

Having a couple of those, not for the main rooms, but - personally I think they can be very nice.
Not comparable to the TVLogic, of course...

[Jerrod Cordell]

Yaaaa the Dreamcolor sounds nice but the $2500 is a bit steep right now.

Anyone have an opinion on NEC monitors? It looks like they have a nice 23" for around $700 and it says it comes with calibration software.

[Hrvoje Simic]

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/product-PVM2541/

These rock! but! the only problem with them is no other TV in the world has blacks like it... So what ever you grade on this you will not see the same on any other monitor you view it on.

The only monitor close to these are the new LED MAC screens.

The principle of reference monitoring, whether it's audio or video, is getting the most accurate representation of the material worked on, not to match the platform of every consumer, which is practically impossible.

What you mention as an issue is a factor which lies in the hands of a colorist.

[Marcus Struzina]

Just wondering if anyone knows if 10 bit monitoring is possible on an EIZO CG275W via thunderbolt ( ie without Blackmagic box etc ) from a macbook pro.
I'm thinking of using this for a Resolve pregrading DCI workflow. ie to grade as close to DCI P3 as possible, do all the secondaries etc , then do a
a final correction pass in a calibrated projection suite.
Does this sound workable?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The monitor can display 10bit from the DisplayPort interface. However you're not going to get that at this time from a Mac and a Thunderbolt port as the Mac GDI does not support 10bit output, regardless of what type of interface or connection is used. If you want 10bit displayed on this monitor, you need to feed it with a true 10bit source -- which means something from BlackMagic, AJA, Matrox, etc.. that has a displayport output.

[Marcus Struzina]

Thanks Jeff, your wisdom is appreciated.

[Marcus Struzina]

Jeff, so maybe the new AJA T tap feeding via SDI a Blackmagic HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort would theoretically pass a 10 bit 2k signal from the thunderbolt port to the mini display port on the Eizo. Any likely hood this would actually work with rival brand format variations ?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I want to say the AJA T-Tap sends out 10bit, but don't know for sure. With it being new and shipping soon, we don't know just what software will support it and all that. But assuming you can use it to send a monitor feed from your software at 10bit, then you should be able to run it through something like the HDLink for LUT management and to get the signal into a displayport connector. Seems like there should be a better solution, even a different monitor, IMO.

[Michael Vera]

Some of the "higher end" NEC stuff is fairly good too.

[Jose Lomeña]

Jeff what do you think about hdlink lut problems?

http://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=13&topic=34

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Interesting... Although I can't comment directly as I'm not using an HDLink box. It seems BMD is aware and they are doing quite well lately with their software and support, so I think they'll get it sorted. Not sure how severe the problem is or how wide-spread. Lots of people using those boxes and few complaints that I've seen.