Four RED One Cameras For Sale on eBay

[James Mathers]

We knew it was coming, a flood of RED cameras for sale on eBay. I currently count four for sale this Saturday morning, January 26, 2008; (Item #190193875645 for Camera #258, Item#330206303117 for Camera #281, Item #130193295017 for Camera #944, and Item #160202355569 for Camera #1050). Note that the second two sellers don't actually have their cameras yet, so essentially they are selling their reservations, and they each have zero eBay feedback, which should also send up some "RED flags". I cannot say if they are Speculators looking for a fast return, or earnest Filmmakers who misjudged their finances and need for the camera. It will be interesting to see where the free market takes us...."Let the buyer beware".

James Mathers
Cinematographer
RED Owner #30X
President, Digital Cinema Society

[A. Bastaki]

i think they're making good money. i wish i had reserved 10 reds... and sold em for 4-10k more.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

It's only interesting now in the beginning when the camera is still rare and "the new thing". Just wait and see the used equip prices when there's 4000 of them out there.

I think most of the sellers are Video shooters who are realizing that the camera will cost more like 35K and upwards for a full package. If you look at most RED's that has been sold they're all more or less body only.

fred

[donatello b]

or maybe it's just plain good ole capitalism ...
you put out 23k ( at risk) and you get 29-38k (reward)for it within 7-15 days ...
or even better would be the last 2 persons that only had to put up $1000 - now if they can get a guarantee sale - then i would have to say - $1000 at risk and they could get a 8-10k return !!! persons over at wall street would be shaking their hands ....

or you can rent out your camera to make $$ ...

bottom line for anybody putting out their $$$ is profit ...

i don't see much difference between the persons selling their camera on ebay or person renting it at high price because there are not that many in rental market ... i tip my hat to all

i do know those high prices in the selling & rental markets are going to come back to ground level very soon ....

[Shawn Nelson]

Selling Red's they haven't even taken delivery of is quite the shenanagins.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i am really sorry for that :wacko: .it is not good way to make money ??and where ?
Ebay :sick:

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Selling Red's they haven't even taken delivery of is quite the shenanagins.

Yeah it's dodgy dave innit.. If the reservation number is over 1000 then what are you buying? A couple of months? And you don't get any of the support from RED etc. I wouldn't buy one. Certainly not for more than it would cost me to buy it directly from RED anyway.

Caveat Emptor :wacko:

[Michael Schrengohst]

I think I will wait and see what Scarlett is all about and pick up a used RED this summer.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

used RED .

please i don't want hear :watsup:

[Raul Gonzo]

i can,t imagine having a Red without their support, not at this early stage...

[Philip Powell]

While I still think the future of Red is bright. I do think there are going to be a lot of folks who can't handle the Red workflow. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just to complex for your average DVRebel. Start talking about RAW, gamma corrected, PDlog..and their eyes start to roll back in their heads. (that is not meant as a slam at anyone.)

The Red is not really their camera...the Scarlet however might be.

[Dominic Cochran]

please i don't want hear :watsup:

Well you're going to hear a lot of it, so you might as well used to it.

[Stephen Pruitt]

The Ebay auction number for #944 is invalid.

Stephen

[Finner]

Selling Red's they haven't even taken delivery of is quite the shenanagins.

If you would have sold right off the bat Shawn there were people offering 100K for numbers as early as yours.

[Warren Kommers]

I'm sorry but why would you start a thread talking shit about other peoples business and credibility? That's Ebay on a whole. Not just people selling Red ones. Not to mention all of them mention the warranty issue. I'm thinking of selling my second Red and sure wouldn't appreciate people undercutting my credibility when I know I'm good for it. If I had the financing for both I wouldn't think twice about it selling it. There will be more on ebay and in the for sale section on this forum so be ready for it.

Oh and I'm not a "video" shooter and I can handle the workflow.

[albert rudnicki]

This thread is depressing:(

[Alexis Hanawalt]

I'm sorry but why would you start a thread talking shit about other peoples business and credibility? That's Ebay on a whole. Not just people selling Red ones. Not to mention all of them mention the warranty issue. I'm thinking of selling my second Red and sure wouldn't appreciate people undercutting my credibility when I know I'm good for it. If I had the financing for both I wouldn't think twice about it selling it. There will be more on ebay and in the for sale section on this forum so be ready for it.

Oh and I'm not a "video" shooter and I can handle the workflow.

I'm in the same boat - and I just DID sell my 2nd camera, and I really don't appreciate people presuming I've done something "dodgy." Seems like early adopters are starting to get a little protective of their baby.

[Rick Darge]

Seriously.. What the hell does it matter really?

People can do whatever they want. This isn't life & death.. this is a camera..

...a c-a-m-e-r-a...

[lcw]

so what's the problem? It's still a hot product. I bet if a lot of production companies or just rich filmmakers, wannabe filmakers know about these sale the auction price will go up.

[A. Bastaki]

While I still think the future of Red is bright. I do think there are going to be a lot of folks who can't handle the Red workflow. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just to complex for your average DVRebel. Start talking about RAW, gamma corrected, PDlog..and their eyes start to roll back in their heads. (that is not meant as a slam at anyone.)

The Red is not really their camera...the Scarlet however might be.

i am one of them average hdv rebels... and it aint slam to me. but the whole red workflow is a challenge. the odd thing about this forum, is that when no0bs like me ask questions.. they don't really always get answered, a couple of your questions are answered then you get ignored. so we are entirely dependent on redone faqs .. info threads.. be it apps.. workflows. like now.. when im running windows and dl footage.. i see the footage fairly light and not so contrasty.. i dont have that 2.2 and 1.8 gamma setting availble. so i dont know what im doing. so i'd rather do it all on the apple side of the world on my machine.

i know pdlogs are like preview standards.. just like using a specific icc profile to use with a certain printer.

i still have many q's and doubts. like for example.. the other i dl a dpx file from red relay with the original bit depth intact... it was 32.1 mb for 7 seconds. it was really one image that ae played for 7 secs. how's that possible? can dpx files have the same file size ratio of redcode raw files? or was that 32mb file just for a single image? and how is converting and editing dpx files feasible on a pc if a 4k second is 323mb's... i understand a final dpx render for a filmout from redcode... but to edit dpx and color correct using an app other than fcp.. then re-make dpx for filmout, i feel is still not feasible? (not a fan of cineform..don't bring it up.) even if i were on a mac i wanted to edit some redcode raw footage to cc secondaries in fcp's color finesse.. will i be able to do that?

we small guys are trying to save hard disk space, even though some, like I, have 2teras ready for red.

many pro's here disagreed with me telling me the whole world does it that way.

but then these are the questions.. no one to date has given me a solid yes or no yet.

[Dan Hudgins]

i am one of them average hdv rebels... and it aint slam to me. but the whole red workflow is a challenge. the odd thing about this forum, is that when no0bs like me ask questions.. they don't really always get answered, a couple of your questions are answered then you get ignored. so we are entirely dependent on redone faqs .. info threads.. be it apps.. workflows. like now.. when im running windows and dl footage.. i see the footage fairly light and not so contrasty.. i dont have that 2.2 and 1.8 gamma setting availble. so i dont know what im doing. so i'd rather do it all on the apple side of the world on my machine.

Moniitor/TV/Projector gamma issues are a mess, I have been trying to work these out with the system I am working on, for now I export files at gamma 2.4 which is the "natural" gamma of many CRT TV sets and un-corrected monitors. You read the monitor gamma wrong if the black and white lines or dots on the gray background are vertical since the monitor peaking or cable bandwith make the small high frequency patches too light or two dark, I use horazontal lines in my grading gamma reference, they are larger than the uneven part of the monitor bandwidth. Apple seems to pick gamma settings that are not on the natural CRT/TV curve, so you need to shiift the tones on each import/export. If you are using 8 bits for each color, 24bpp, changing the gamma on each import/export may produce gaps in the tonal range giving the image a slight posterazation. You may want to pick a reference image such as the LAD, and load that before you grade you footage to be sure that the monitor and import/export gamma settings are giving you the same look. Also I would use a CRT monitor rather than a LCD for grading since if you move your head around the LCD can change the look. Also the windows should be blacked out, and the room light constant since the color and brightness of the light in the room can change the way the monitor image looks, black level and gamma change a little with lights on or off. If you save an load from uncompressed 48bpp file types the constant gamma changes going from PC to MAC programs is less of a issue, but the files are twice as big...



i still have many q's and doubts. like for example.. the other i dl a dpx file from red relay with the original bit depth intact... it was 32.1 mb for 7 seconds. it was really one image that ae played for 7 secs. how's that possible? can dpx files have the same file size ratio of redcode raw files? or was that 32mb file just for a single image? and how is converting and editing dpx files feasible on a pc if a 4k second is 323mb's... i understand a final dpx render for a filmout from redcode... but to edit dpx and color correct using an app other than fcp.. then re-make dpx for filmout, i feel is still not feasible? (not a fan of cineform..don't bring it up.) even if i were on a mac i wanted to edit some redcode raw footage to cc secondaries in fcp's color finesse.. will i be able to do that?

we small guys are trying to save hard disk space, even though some, like I, have 2teras ready for red.

To work on your project on a PC you may be able to down size the frames to 320x240 resolution. The color correction and editing will be the same, and you will be able to store a feature in less than 100GB. You can then later edit the full 2K, or 4K footage a few minutes at a time by matching the "proxy" frames. Doing color correction on uncompressed 4k 48bit frames will take quite a while even with fast software, with 126720 frames in an 88 minute feature, and each uncompressed 4096x2048x6 frame being 51MB, you get about 6.5TB of files, to process that at one minute per frame would take about 88 days on a single PC.

To edit on film, conform the negative, cut the mag film, and such yourself would probably take longer than a year, so if you have several computers going 24/7 using a uncompressed Digital Intermediate will give you a much better result with probably less work and cost. From my experience the last few years working with film scanning, if you can shoot digital you are far ahead for someone who would have to do the bulk of the negative cutting both in cost and quality.


many pro's here disagreed with me telling me the whole world does it that way.

but then these are the questions.. no one to date has given me a solid yes or no yet.

People who have sponsors have a different view of things since they can use the sponsors money to have work done in labs and such. If you are going to do the work at home, and want a quality result you will have to put some time into getting the results you want.

While there is a strong temptation to compress the image frames on import and export to save disk space, use fewer backup tapes, and speed loading and saving of the frames, I would hope that everyone understands that if you uncompress JPG2000 type images with their artifacts then recompress them after changes the artifacts develop more artifacts.

If the RED ONE (tm) footage is compressed in the camera at 4k then downsized to 2k for export as 48bpp uncompressed then the losses are not to large if you use enough fill light on the subject and crush the dark areas later. But if you do not keep the frames uncompressed through all further processing the compression artifacts will accumulate, and making gamma changes or sharpening will make the artifacts more noticable, as will resizing the images.

With TV going digital in compressed formats, and distribution to the TV stations and DLP cinema being compressed, the end image gets compressed two or three times at a minimum. If the image is reduced in size each time it gets compressed the loss may not look a bad, but with HD TVs being 1920x1080 the reduction is not as large as when going to a 720x480 DVD, so having less compression used in the image generations during editing can only help.

As for people selling their RED ONE (tm) because they cannot tolerate the workflow, that seems silly, if you want a quality result the RED ONE (tm) camera is a good if not the best choice now.

There should be a easy way, or maybe the RED (tm) team should work on an easy way, to edit a DV proxy on any editing system and match the editing later with the high resolution stream. You could use OCR to read the SMPTE time code off the edited frames, or something, to do the match editing. (with my system I just suggest that people inch through and type the start and end SMPTE into the edit list manually to conform to an edit done on some other system) Could someone speak more about the current situation with regard to the use of "proxy" frames at lower resolution for editing and grading in the RED (tm) workflow to save disk space?

In my system I am just doing the grading with single key frames from each shot, and low rez proxy frames for the editing of the reels...

Bottom line, if you like DV for its ease of use, maybe you can shoot DV side by side to the red, and do your edit on DV, then get a sponsor to have someone else wrestle with the 4k, but if I had a RED ONE (tm) I would not sell it on ebay if I ever thought I was going to try to do a quality project just because of the workflow...

Anyone know how long it takes to go from footage ingest start to film out (if you had a celco) using the RED ONE (tm) for a single user on a single PC to make an 88 minute feature at 4k? i.e. 90days...2years...

[mezmo]

Hi Akube & Dancad,
Try Kevin Stanley in the 4K Workflow thread, he's the new Red
Post/Workflow expert. Ask questions they get tested and answered.
PC or Mac.
Mezmo

[Brent J. Craig]

Selling Red's they haven't even taken delivery of is quite the shenanagins.

It is actually against Ebay rules to sell something that you cannot deliver within 7 days of the auction ending. Theses sellers should be reported and shut down (as the Red community has done in the past).

[Alexis Hanawalt]

It is actually against Ebay rules to sell something that you cannot deliver within 7 days of the auction ending. Theses sellers should be reported and shut down (as the Red community has done in the past).

You have no idea what you're talking about.

When people sell real estate on eBay, do you think the deed is fully transfered within 7 days?

You can absolutely sell non-tangible assets on eBay, which is what people including myself have done. Why on earth do you feel the need to "report and shut down" people who are engaged in activity that doesn't involve you?

[A. Bastaki]

thanks alot dancad.. i'm still studying what you've posted. good post.

Thanks a lot.

regards;

A.Bastaki

[Mark Allen]

You can absolutely sell non-tangible assets on eBay,

Interesting side note is that if you use paypal and you sell somethng non-tangible the buyer can have the transaction reversed at any time for pretty much any reason. If you're a software seller for example, paypal will tell you that you need to send them a disk of your software so that there is at least a trace that something was sent. However, paypal still will favor the buyer and has no problem taking your money back and giving it back to the buyer.

Read their "seller protection policy" (a misnomer) very carefully if you want to find out more about this and if you find yourself thining "you've got to be kidding." Call them up and you'll find out, they're not. There are other paysystems which will not reverse payments on you. kagi might be one of them, but I've not done the research to find out.

Just a heads up since I know several people in different realms who got bit by this. In fact, it's a pretty widespread scam people run based on this loophole. Imagine if someone realized you could buy anything non-tangible you wanted and be fully protected and able to get your money back in an instant.

[Rick Darge]

Yea, beware of the dreaded paypal..... I was burned out of $2,500 a few years ago & haven't used their services since.

[Brent J. Craig]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I had the timeframe slightly wrong but I was correct in saying that Ebay does limit the sale of items that are not in the sellers possession. Ebay allows pre-sale listings only when the item can be delivered within 30 days:

"Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the control or possession of the seller at the time of the listing. These listings generally consist of items that are sold in advance of a delivery date to the public.

eBay permits Pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must guarantee that the item will be available for shipping within 30 days from the date of purchase (i.e., the day the listing ends or the date the item is purchased from a store front listing). The seller must also clearly indicate within the listing the fact that the item is a pre-sale item with a delivery date that indicates the item will be shipped by the 30th day from the end date of the listing."

[Warren Kommers]

I had the timeframe slightly wrong but I was correct in saying that Ebay does limit the sale of items that are not in the sellers possession. Ebay allows pre-sale listings only when the item can be delivered within 30 days:

"Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the control or possession of the seller at the time of the listing. These listings generally consist of items that are sold in advance of a delivery date to the public.

eBay permits Pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must guarantee that the item will be available for shipping within 30 days from the date of purchase (i.e., the day the listing ends or the date the item is purchased from a store front listing). The seller must also clearly indicate within the listing the fact that the item is a pre-sale item with a delivery date that indicates the item will be shipped by the 30th day from the end date of the listing."

Don't you have something better to do? I'm sorry. I'm tired of the Reduser police sticking their noses in other peoples business. Let the purchaser worry/research about these conditions.

[Anthony Gratl]

I had the timeframe slightly wrong but I was correct in saying that Ebay does limit the sale of items that are not in the sellers possession. Ebay allows pre-sale listings only when the item can be delivered within 30 days:

"Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the control or possession of the seller at the time of the listing. These listings generally consist of items that are sold in advance of a delivery date to the public.

eBay permits Pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must guarantee that the item will be available for shipping within 30 days from the date of purchase (i.e., the day the listing ends or the date the item is purchased from a store front listing). The seller must also clearly indicate within the listing the fact that the item is a pre-sale item with a delivery date that indicates the item will be shipped by the 30th day from the end date of the listing."

Nice work Crewpix. You're also not supposed to jaywalk or speed. From my perspective the real deal is in the actions between buyer and seller, not what was drawn up in an management meeting with the legal department.
So why are you getting involved?

[Alexis Hanawalt]

I had the timeframe slightly wrong but I was correct in saying that Ebay does limit the sale of items that are not in the sellers possession. Ebay allows pre-sale listings only when the item can be delivered within 30 days[/i]"

Oh, I see.

eBay actually doesn't give a shit. Their legal team will enforce policies if there's a complaint. But, they don't give a shit. Neither does anyone else. I doubt you give a shit. They got a ton of my money, so I'm sure they're happy with the transaction.

Speaking of being happy with the transaction, I met with the buyer yesterday to go over details of our contract and talk though accessories, etc. He couldn't be more excited to be getting the camera. It's a win-win.

And then there's you. Just stop.

[Brent J. Craig]

... they don't give a shit. Neither does anyone else. I doubt you give a shit.

I'm so happy that your transaction went well.

The point I was trying to make was that people who think the rules do not apply to them are often people who you may not want to do business with, in my experience.

In our business full of scumbags and shysters it is important for people to have the tools they need to separate good risks from bad. That was the purpose of my 'ebay rules' post. To me, people selling stuff they don't own and don't even know when they will receive it are bad risks.

I am not getting involved. This is a discussion board. People discuss things here. That's why they call it a discussion board. I could give 2 shits about what you are doing. Good for you for making $10000 on a $1000 investment.

Chill a bit, OK?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This thread is headed the wrong direction.

People will always be people and do what they want to do, whether it's on eBay or any other venue that allows them to do what they want. Let ebay worry about their own policies and how to enforce them. If anyone feels the need to play auction-police, please do so through the proper channels instead of bitching about it here. We all know the restrictions and implications that come with selling a RED One and from the auction listings, it looks like these sellers do as well.

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Chill a bit, OK?

You said "these sellers should be reported and shut down." Not chill.

I take this entire thread as a personal attack on my character. I have to say I anticipated it when I made the decision to sell, but that doesn't mean I won't defend my actions.

Jeff, what "right" direction was this thread ever headed in?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, what "right" direction was this thread ever headed in?

Good point. On that note I think I'm just going to lock the thread down. There really isn't anything to discuss here, other than personal feelings on the matter.