My first day with Redcine

[Stu Maschwitz]

Hi all,

I helped a friend with a red shoot last week and am brushing up on Redcine so I can take the footage all the way through a 4K grade and to 35mm film.

I downloaded the latest Redcine build (RedCine082_OSX) and found a sample 4K R3D file on redrelay.net. The one I picked was MARTIAL_ARTS_handheld.R3D from Firestone/Bagley.

I've watched all the tutorial videos and I have some experience with Scratch, so I mostly "get" Redcine, but I have had my share of problems trying to create a 4K DPX sequence from this R3D file.

First of all, I am confused as to why Redcine prevents me from switching between applications on my Mac. It makes it hard to work when you're locked into only one application.

I created a project and imported the shot. I set myself up for 4K log DPX files and I left most other settings alone, although I did set NR to Low.

I set up my output and hit the big red button. Redcine started rendering and the images on my screen looked as I would expect. The processing was slow and the estimate was about two hours.

But after processing only 12 frames, the image on the screen went from my 4K log image to a 1/2 res window with some other color settings (looked like maybe linear light or some dark version of Rec709). The processing sped up noticeably and my estimate went down to about 25 minutes.

When it fnished I looked at the resultant DPX sequence. The first 11 files are correct -- big, lovely 4K DPX frames.

Frame 12 is 4K but corrupt. Upside-down, bright, and jumbled pixels top and bottom.

Frame 13 through to the end are 2K and dark -- but not as dark as they appeared in Redcine when it was rendering.

Can anyone suggest what might be borken here? Has anyone else tried to process this particular R3D file? Maybe my download is corrupted?

-Stu

[Bruce Allen]

I'll take a look on my PC with the same .R3D file, Stu. Downloading now.

RedCine Build .082, right?
NR - low
DPX, 4K log

Agreed, it'd be nice if we had "reference samples" - .R3D files shot with the latest firmware build that are officially supposed to work...

Maybe when the mega-builds 14 and 15 hit, we'll have a go. I know a few nice people with X-build cameras.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hi all,

I helped a friend with a red shoot last week and am brushing up on Redcine so I can take the footage all the way through a 4K grade and to 35mm film.

I downloaded the latest Redcine build (RedCine082_OSX) and found a sample 4K R3D file on redrelay.net. The one I picked was MARTIAL_ARTS_handheld.R3D from Firestone/Bagley.

I've watched all the tutorial videos and I have some experience with Scratch, so I mostly "get" Redcine, but I have had my share of problems trying to create a 4K DPX sequence from this R3D file.

First of all, I am confused as to why Redcine prevents me from switching between applications on my Mac. It makes it hard to work when you're locked into only one application.

I created a project and imported the shot. I set myself up for 4K log DPX files and I left most other settings alone, although I did set NR to Low.

I set up my output and hit the big red button. Redcine started rendering and the images on my screen looked as I would expect. The processing was slow and the estimate was about two hours.

But after processing only 12 frames, the image on the screen went from my 4K log image to a 1/2 res window with some other color settings (looked like maybe linear light or some dark version of Rec709). The processing sped up noticeably and my estimate went down to about 25 minutes.

When it fnished I looked at the resultant DPX sequence. The first 11 files are correct -- big, lovely 4K DPX frames.

Frame 12 is 4K but corrupt. Upside-down, bright, and jumbled pixels top and bottom.

Frame 13 through to the end are 2K and dark -- but not as dark as they appeared in Redcine when it was rendering.

Can anyone suggest what might be borken here? Has anyone else tried to process this particular R3D file? Maybe my download is corrupted?

-Stu

Stu -

Welcome to REDCINE BETA !!- most awesome to have you posting here.

There are bugs. But since this has been released - apparently everyone is just supposed to kick and scream on this forum.

I personally have not hit that exact bug because we have been processing QT's - but I will try to recreate Monday.

Again, great to have you hear as I personally value your input.

[Stu Maschwitz]

RedCine Build .082, right?

Yep. Thanks Bruce!

Attached are some visuals to clarify my results.

-Stu

[Stu Maschwitz]

Again, great to have you hear as I personally value your input.

Thanks dude, it's great to finally have a reason to be here—and I plan to have more and more reasons to be here!

-Stu

[donatello b]

Stu
i assume you haven't been given copy of R3D's clips from the shoot ?
i have 75% of them ... i'll see if i can get permission to get some to you for practice ...

[Stu Maschwitz]

Thanks Donatello, that would be ideal.

-Stu

[mikeburton]

If you import the file and it plays just fine in REDCINE I would assume the file is not corrupt. Try this,

I know this sounds like a pain, but try opening up a new REDCINE project, importing the same clip again, make the adjustments you wish to make and export again your 4K DPX files. I have had this same issue and simply attempting the render again in a new project seems to work.
Also, where are you exporting to? Sometimes if you change your export path it helps as well.

Also, I have some shots that Donatello and I shot as well a few weeks ago i would be happy to let you experiment with if you like.

Mike

[Stu Maschwitz]

If you import the file and it plays just fine in REDCINE I would assume the file is not corrupt. Try this,

It does indeed play correctly.


I know this sounds like a pain, but try opening up a new REDCINE project, importing the same clip again, make the adjustments you wish to make and export again your 4K DPX files. I have had this same issue and simply attempting the render again in a new project seems to work.
Also, where are you exporting to? Sometimes if you change your export path it helps as well.

I did try it twice (uninstalled and reinstalled Recine in between), but I can try a third time—maybe with TIFFs.


Also, I have some shots that Donatello and I shot as well a few weeks ago i would be happy to let you experiment with if you like.

That would be terrific, thank you very much!

-Stu

[mikeburton]

You could give Tiff's a try as well. I have had better luck exporting to an external drive than my internals for some reason. I would try both if you can and see if that makes a difference. If not, I would try to re-install the last version before and see if that helps. With Beta software, you never know what will work or why it acts funny sometimes, just like PC's :)

[Bruce Allen]

My $450 Craigslist PC is on Frame 100 so far. It estimates 40 minutes to finish the whole job.

Just to stress things out further, I loaded After Effects while RedCine was converting and loaded up what's been done so far. Frames look good. After Effects responsiveness is less good ;)

RedCine Settings:
4K (4096x2048), linear filter, DPX, RedLog, NR Low

Computer:
Core2 Duo 2.4ghz OC'ed to 2.6
Geforce 7950
2 gb RAM
outputting to a 4-drive onboard RAID-0 scratch partition

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Stu Maschwitz]

I tried TIFFs and it barfed down to the dark half-res image after one frame!

I'm going to hold off until I get some 2:1 footage instead of this 16:9 sample.

Beta indeed.

-Stu

[Stu Maschwitz]

In case it matters I'm using PDlog685, not REDlog.

-Stu

[mikeburton]

I'll give it a try on my Mac and see if i can duplicate the issue. Downloading now.

[Bruce Allen]

Stu,

PDlog685 works fine for me too (the first 50 frames, at least).

Are you outputting to 4096x2048? 16:9 is buggy.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Stu Maschwitz]

Are you outputting to 4096x2048? 16:9 is buggy.

The TIFF render that barfed on frame 2 was 16:9, but all my DPX renders were 2:1.

-Stu

[mikeburton]

I just rendered 100 frames in 16X9 and all other settings you mentioned perfectly without a hitch.

Hmmm. Can you try another machine?

[Bruce Allen]

The TIFF render that barfed on frame 2 was 16:9, but all my DPX renders were 2:1.

-Stu

Stu, maybe try on a PC with semi-recent nVidia card? Anything else we can do to help?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Stu Maschwitz]

The machine I'm on is a 17" macbook pro with a GeForce 8600M GT. I can try in windows on this same machine easily enough.

-Stu

[MosesMa]

Hey gang,

I'm the filmmaker that Stu is helping out. Yeah, I just got buried in day job work and haven't had time to cut the footage for Stu to test color grading. But yes, I'm happy to send the footage over to Stu so he can play with it. (I mean, who wouldn't want Stu helping?) By the way, we're pursuing an "open model" for filmmaking, so everything we learn about how to shoot beautifully with the RED, we'll share with the RED community. The goal of the test shoot is to take some RED footage all the way to 35mm answer print and see how it looks projected on a screen.

Anyway, here's a teaser framegrab, which Paul Nordin shot using Donatello's RED, and Stu did some experiments in color correction to:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1037_1201403687.jpg

Remember, this is just a very early peek, but I think it looks pretty promising...

The goal for our film project (titled: "The Ethical Slut", a edgy romantic comedy about polyamory) is to produce something so beautiful that it - even for a second - actually takes your breath away. On a shoestring budget! If you wanna help out or participate with the test footage or the overall project, just drop me a note.

Moses
Little Taoist Films

[JFirestone]

I just did a test on my mac. I pulled down the file from the internet to see if things got corrupted in the upload. My version of REDCINE does not like my old NVidia 6800, and the overlay is hosed, but it outputs just fine. I processed through frame 50 at 4k 2:1 to DPX files, and they all look fine.

Jon Firestone
#232

[Stu Maschwitz]

Hey Moses, good to see you here.

I just tried a new project and new drives, and got to frame 22 before my DPXs went to half res. I'll get some footage from Moses and see if I experience the same problem, and I always have XP to try as well.

-Stu

[Lucas Wilson]

Hey Moses, good to see you here.

I just tried a new project and new drives, and got to frame 22 before my DPXs went to half res. I'll get some footage from Moses and see if I experience the same problem, and I always have XP to try as well.

-Stu

Hey Stu...

When's a good time to reach you? I'm in Beijing right now, but let me know offlist how to get in touch, and I'll try and help ya' out.

Don't you have a good machine for SCRATCH now too? Might be a good route for you to try as well.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Paul Nordin]

Hey Moses, good to see you here.

I just tried a new project and new drives, and got to frame 22 before my DPXs went to half res. I'll get some footage from Moses and see if I experience the same problem, and I always have XP to try as well.

-Stu

Hi Stu, It was great meeting you last weekend at the shoot. I don't know if Moses has gotten back to you yet, but if not, I've got a back up of the footage and it would be no problem to run it by to you on Sunday or Monday.
Cheers,
Paul

[Stu Maschwitz]

Hey Paul—wow, the whole gang's here! Moses is going to bring a drive by on Monday so I think I'm covered, but thank you nonetheless. Your footage is gorgeous and as you can tell I'm eager to determine the best possible post workflow for it.

-Stu

PS: Emeryville rules!

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Hey gang,

I'm the filmmaker that Stu is helping out. Yeah, I just got buried in day job work and haven't had time to cut the footage for Stu to test color grading. But yes, I'm happy to send the footage over to Stu so he can play with it. (I mean, who wouldn't want Stu helping?) By the way, we're pursuing an "open model" for filmmaking, so everything we learn about how to shoot beautifully with the RED, we'll share with the RED community. The goal of the test shoot is to take some RED footage all the way to 35mm answer print and see how it looks projected on a screen.

Anyway, here's a teaser framegrab, which Paul Nordin shot using Donatello's RED, and Stu did some experiments in color correction to:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1037_1201403687.jpg


Remember, this is just a very early peek, but I think it looks pretty promising...

The goal for our film project (titled: "The Ethical Slut", a edgy romantic comedy about polyamory) is to produce something so beautiful that it - even for a second - actually takes your breath away. On a shoestring budget! If you wanna help out or participate with the test footage or the overall project, just drop me a note.

Moses
Little Taoist Films


Moses that looks REALLY beautiful! Are you planning on posting graded clips on REDRELAY? RED footage that looked like that would persuade some currently sceptical friends of mine that RED can really cut it against Film
Do you know the film Love is the Devil about Francis Bacon? If RED footage could be made to look like that movie.. I might even become a fan boy :love: :)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The machine I'm on is a 17" macbook pro with a GeForce 8600M GT. I can try in windows on this same machine easily enough.

-Stu

its the graphics card, and the 4k@ 16:9 martial arts footage that causes the problem.

this kung fu clip causes problems on a mac ( at least at me).

[Deanan]

The machine I'm on is a 17" macbook pro with a GeForce 8600M GT. I can try in windows on this same machine easily enough.

-Stu

Leopard or Tiger?

[Stu Maschwitz]

Leopard.

-Stu

[Stu Maschwitz]

FWIW, the 4K 2:1 drag racing R3D works fine on my Mac, made a perfectly lovely log DPX sequence.

-Stu

[MosesMa]

Moses that looks REALLY beautiful! Are you planning on posting graded clips on REDRELAY? RED footage that looked like that would persuade some currently sceptical friends of mine that RED can really cut it against Film

Thanks Fergus! And sure, we're planning to post both ungraded and graded clips from the test on RedRelay. It's all about learning curve, and the more we share, the faster we all get up to speed on the camera, right?


Do you know the film Love is the Devil about Francis Bacon? If RED footage could be made to look like that movie.. I might even become a fan boy :love: :)
I'll put that movie on my Netflix list. Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, for this project, the film I was originally trying to look like was "Henry & June"... but I started studying frames from that film and decided that it wasn't a lofty enough goal! So now, "Stealing Beauty" is what I'm pushing everyone go after.

[Stu Maschwitz]

FWIW, the 4K 2:1 drag racing R3D works fine on my Mac, made a perfectly lovely log DPX sequence.

...and here's what it looks like graded through my pipeline-in-progress:

http://rebelsguide.com/dl/drag_01_HD_H264.mov
1920x800 H.264 Quicktime

-Stu

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

the more we share, the faster we all get up to speed on the camera, right?

Hallelujah :)



I'll put that movie on my Netflix list.

I love that movie.. They filmed loads of it with random pieces of glass in front of the lens.. Crazy Stuff. It was the paint pots in your still that reminded me of it, (and the quality of the light..).

[Curran Giddens]

So now, "Stealing Beauty" is what I'm pushing everyone go after.

Now that is a lofty goal indeed! "Stealing Beauty" is one of my favorite films. Makes me want to move to Italy....

[Andrew M.]

I was trying to reproduce your problem since I have seen it happen few times before on my machine.
After removing all I had in the REDCINE library (removed whole directory there “REDCINE”
And reinstalling build 82 it do not happen anymore.
However I still see GL out of memory error in the log.
Check your log file when you have problems, see below.


: REDCODE RAW Started (Build no. 0436 Jan 15 2008)
10:45:10.39 INFO : Session initialize
10:45:10.55 INFO : 3D LUT: Enable FP16 texture format
10:45:10.56 INFO : Initialize player
10:45:10.56 INFO : Initialize Player Session..
10:45:10.56 INFO : AS Render: Enabled pbuffer based render scheme!
10:45:10.65 INFO : Audio: Microsoft Sound Mapper
: Setup: 44100 Hz, 2 Channel(s), 16 bit
10:45:10.66 INFO : Setup Timeline Player, Session 1
10:45:11.35 INFO : Session start
10:46:56.88 INFO : PLAYER: AUTO-SAVE...
10:46:56.88 INFO : Updating project Media/Construct database
: Writing project constructs: 'Application Data\REDCINE\Project\Session_1\Construct.reg'
: Build node list: 0.00002
: Create library : 0.00046
: Create project : 0.00011
: Write registry : 0.01236
10:46:56.90 INFO : Update Project Media registry
: Updated/saved 0 clips (0.0102 Sec.)
10:47:15.00 ERROR: Pre- Fragment Program : OpenGL Program Error - 'Out of memory'
10:47:15.15 WARN : GFX: PBO read setup: OpenGL Error - Out of memory
10:47:19.92 ERROR: GL Display Render Pass (96): 'Out of memory'
: Average time per frame 4.087 (0.24 FPS)
: CG Render - Total: 2.659 Setup: 0.001 Render: 1.718 Read: 0.940
10:50:31.33 WARN : TX Display texture failed(2)
: Image: ' 4096x2048 RGB, 10 bit (Lin) '
10:50:31.33 WARN : TX Display texture failed(1)
: Image: ' 4096x2048 RGB, 10 bit (Lin) '
: Using next texture.

NVIDIA GeForce 8700M GT with 256MB Firmware ver. 156.69
Intel Core 2 Extreme CPU X7900 2.8GHz XP 32

[MosesMa]

Now that is a lofty goal indeed! "Stealing Beauty" is one of my favorite films. Makes me want to move to Italy....
The film makes me want to do something too, but it has more to do with Liv Tyler... ;-)

Anyway, here are a few things that I personally learned from the shoot, which may be pretty obvious to some of you but hey, this is gonna be my first feature and I figure other first timers are reading.

First, to aspire to making something as beautiful as Stealing Beauty or The Dreamers, we need to push the RED to give us rich skin tones. The challenge would be to light the scene so that we don't under-illuminate skin tones and introduce noise, and at the same time, keep from blowing out the whites. A night shoot, where we could completely control lighting, would not be as challenging or provide as much learning potential, so for the test, we selected a scene that showed some skin, and required nice big windows with sunshine pouring in. This is probably the #1 issue with any camera, but mastering the specific balance for the RED was a key challenge.

Second, to achieve film-like imagery, just shooting with the RED by itself will not be enough. The project requires very aggressive and skillful color grading, which HAS to be done by someone who really knows what he's doing. Also, carefully managing diffusion is critical to getting the look right. The tone of the film is still set more by color and sound, than resolution and framerate. Hence, I started bird-dogging Stu months ago, who is worth his weight in gold as a filmmaking resource.

Finally, I noticed that the need to adapt and be mentally agile around the camera, kept our brains functioning at 110% - as well as the adrenaline level up throughout the day. It's interesting... I find that shooting with such a new camera makes you completely rethink what filmmaking is all about, and in the end, it forces you to innovate in every aspect of a shoot and post production. So I think that even if you're successful enough to shoot everything in film, it pays to shoot with a RED just to force yourself to question your filmmaking assumptions and push that envelope.

[Stu Maschwitz]

I have some log files bundled up if anyone wants them. Lucas?

Lots of stuff like this in there:

18:16:59.70 INFO : Media library saved (0.0026 Sec.)
18:17:11.14 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 1
18:17:11.23 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 3
18:17:11.29 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 1
18:17:11.35 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1072693248x4096)
18:17:11.80 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 2
# : Repeated 2 times
18:17:11.92 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1073741824x4096)
18:17:12.70 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 3
# : Repeated 2 times
18:17:12.83 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1074266112x4096)

and

18:10:51.86 INFO : Setup Timeline Player, Session 1
18:10:51.92 ERROR: TIFF: Can not read image with 1-bit samples
18:10:51.92 ERROR: TIFF: /Users/stu/ma2.4096x2048/000128.tif: No "put" routine setupl; probably can not handle image format
18:10:55.69 INFO : Session start
: GFX: Use half (16 bit) floating point 1D LUT's
18:10:56.45 ERROR: TIFF: Can not read image with 1-bit samples
18:10:56.45 ERROR: TIFF: /Users/stu/ma2.4096x2048/000129.tif: No "put" routine setupl; probably can not handle image format

[Lucas Wilson]

I have some log files bundled up if anyone wants them. Lucas?

Lots of stuff like this in there:

18:16:59.70 INFO : Media library saved (0.0026 Sec.)
18:17:11.14 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 1
18:17:11.23 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 3
18:17:11.29 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 1
18:17:11.35 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1072693248x4096)
18:17:11.80 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 2
# : Repeated 2 times
18:17:11.92 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1073741824x4096)
18:17:12.70 WARN : REDCODE RAW: Error decoding frame 3
# : Repeated 2 times
18:17:12.83 WARN : Image processing: Input 0, buffer allocation failed.. (0: 1074266112x4096)

and

18:10:51.86 INFO : Setup Timeline Player, Session 1
18:10:51.92 ERROR: TIFF: Can not read image with 1-bit samples
18:10:51.92 ERROR: TIFF: /Users/stu/ma2.4096x2048/000128.tif: No "put" routine setupl; probably can not handle image format
18:10:55.69 INFO : Session start
: GFX: Use half (16 bit) floating point 1D LUT's
18:10:56.45 ERROR: TIFF: Can not read image with 1-bit samples
18:10:56.45 ERROR: TIFF: /Users/stu/ma2.4096x2048/000129.tif: No "put" routine setupl; probably can not handle image format

Stu,

There is a sticky within the REDCINE section for log files... can you upload them there?

Tx,

Lucas

[Stu Maschwitz]

Done (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=145050#post145050), thanks!

-Stu