Gamma 2.2

[Jarred Land]

Hey all, Just a reminder (in the mac world) to set your monitors to 2.2 gamma.

I just got a new system over the weekend and for a brief moment was wondering why everything looked like crap.. then remembered and changed it.

Just a reminder, since new macs ( at least the new mac pro towers) still come with 1.8 gamma as default, hopefully some day that will change.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Just curious Jarred, what new system did you get? Specs?

[A. Bastaki]

how do you configure that on windows? ive got the 256mb standard video card. im running winx64 on mac pro. nvidia standard card. are there any gamma 2.2 icc profiles i could load?

googling at the moment.. ill upload as soon as i could find one.

so far it seems like windows already are gamma 2.2 calibrated
________
Alaska Dispensary (http://alaska.dispensaries.org/)

[Chris Kenny]

The catch is that Final Cut Pro assumes your monitor is set to 1.8 and displays video supposedly corrected for that. See here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794).

[jbeale]

Most PC displays are somewhat close to 2.2 gamma to start with, it's just the Mac world that has traditionally been (and apparently still is) 1.8.

Here's a test chart you can use to tell what gamma your monitor is:
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachart

Note that quite often, a different application may do its own gamma correction! An image displayed in Photoshop often looks different than the same image displayed in my Firefox web browser. Download the test image from the link above, try it and see.

Note also, sometimes people say the gamma is off when actually it's the black level that is set wrong- both of those affect how contrasty or washed-out the image looks. The chart above lets you check both.

[Jarred Land]

Just curious Jarred, what new system did you get? Specs?

I bought one of the new 2008 Mac Pro towers for home. 3.0ghz x8-cores with 8gb memory. I put a 160gb 10,000rpm Raptor as boot drive and it sure makes a difference over the stock drive apple gives you.

I also ordered 3 500gb drives from newegg to put in the internal drive caddy in a raid0 config to handle day to day render large video files.

Im experimenting using Idisk to sync my desktop and AAsync to make my little lacie sync via the internet on my work system so i dont need to haul around little drives anymore.. so far it works pretty good...

[Jarred Land]

The catch is that Final Cut Pro assumes your monitor is set to 1.8 and displays video supposedly corrected for that. See here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794).

yeah.. wouldn't it be great if that actually worked :)

Quicktime has a gamma box that is supposed to overide the 1.8 gamma overide, but that as well, doesnt always work, and only works for people that have studio 2 installed.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Thanks Chris & jbeale for the references. The Apple article looks like something I will be printing out and keeping right by my Mac.

I have often been critical of using computer monitors for judging video, perhaps with better set up I can close that gap for those times when a proper video monitor is not available. I still think the toe will be represented very differently but its a step in the right direction. Sorry about the pun.

[Jarred Land]

Blair before you get too excited and make that document your bible, remember that that article was written almost 4 years ago.

still some good info in it, but alot has changed since then.

[Anders Holck]

Wouldn't the only correct handeling of this be that all software would either render through colorsync or check the gamma setting of the current screen profile.

Just assuming something always seems to be a bad thing :-)

[Corrado Silveri]

Hey all, Just a reminder (in the mac world) to set your monitors to 2.2 gamma.

I just got a new system over the weekend and for a brief moment was wondering why everything looked like crap.. then remembered and changed it.

Just a reminder, since new macs ( at least the new mac pro towers) still come with 1.8 gamma as default, hopefully some day that will change.

Jarred, do you think that the Adobe RGB (1998) profile will be good for this purpose?

It's a 2.2 Gamma profile, I'm using this with the Cinema Displays.

Or I have to change only the gamma value on the standard Apple RGB profile?

:wacko:

[Anders Holck]

Adobe RGB is a working space not a viewing profile.

For best results you need a screen calibrator like the EyeOne or Spyder and make a viewing profile for your display.
Then when making the profile you set the target gamma to 2.2

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Blair before you get too excited and make that document your bible, remember that that article was written almost 4 years ago.

still some good info in it, but alot has changed since then.

Thanks for that note on that Apple article Jarred. Does anyone have a current reference quick guide on the gamma shifting that is done in the background and when to do it manually? Its great that Apple and FCP are trying to make our lives easier but as so often happens the law of unintended consequences is never far away.

[Stu Maschwitz]

The catch is that Final Cut Pro assumes your monitor is set to 1.8 and displays video supposedly corrected for that. See here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794).

This drives me crazy about FCP. Most video professionals set their displays to gamma 2.2. The Mac has a very clear and easy option for this. Apple has been involved in pushing color management forward. Safari is one of the few ICC color-managed browsers in existence. And yet FCP completely ignores your system settings and assumes you have a gamma 1.8 display—when in fact FCP users are the most likely candidates to prefer a 2.2 gamma.

This causes no end of problems and is the root of most of the gamma incompatibility issues surrounding Final Cut (why do my shots look darker in AE? Or Shake? Or Color?).

FCP really needs to fix this (by respecting the Colorsync settings on the host machine). And both FCP and Quicktime need to learn the difference between a display color management system and baking a gamma transform into the pixels they write out.

-Stu

[Deanan]

It drives everyone nuts. That and the need for a PRO quicktime that isn't tied to the consumer releases and is simpler and rewritten.

Apple is finally aware that the gamma problem is serious and needs a solution.

[Stu Maschwitz]

It drives everyone nuts. That and the need for a PRO quicktime that isn't tied to the consumer releases and is simpler and rewritten.

That would rool. There's a lotta baby in that stanky bathwater.


Apple is finally aware that the gamma problem is serious and needs a solution.

That, my friend, is the best possible news.

-Stu

[Brook Willard]

Apple is finally aware that the gamma problem is serious and needs a solution.

How much did you guys have to do with that?

[Anders Holck]

Both Safari and Preview.app seems to read the colorsync viewing profile when the apps are started and then renders the image view thru that.
Subsequent change of the system profile doesn't seem to update the app view profile until I restart it. I'm on my laptop right now but I wonder how they handle moving the view across dual monitors.

Only Photoshop seems to update the image view's viewing profile on the fly At least the gamma is consistent when I change my systems color sync view profile between 1.8, 2,2 and linear.

Would be great if an app could just present the working space to the system which would then do the correct color space conversion on the fly.

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, do you think that the Adobe RGB (1998) profile will be good for this purpose?

It's a 2.2 Gamma profile, I'm using this with the Cinema Displays.

Or I have to change only the gamma value on the standard Apple RGB profile?

:wacko:

I always work in Adobe 1998 ( as does Jim ), and calibrate the monitor with a 2.2 viewing gamma. Even the pantone huey does a great job calibrating, and its less than a hundred bucks.

[Anders Holck]

I always work in Adobe 1998 ( as does Jim ), and calibrate the monitor with a 2.2 viewing gamma. Even the pantone huey does a great job calibrating, and its less than a hundred bucks.

I think Elcurado was talking about using Abobe RGB as the viewing profile in the Colorsync dialog.

I believe what you suggest is using a custom calibrated profile in the Colorsync dialog and then using Abobe RGB (1998) as the working space inside Photoshop, right?

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I bought one of the new 2008 Mac Pro towers for home. 3.0ghz x8-cores with 8gb memory. I put a 160gb 10,000rpm Raptor as boot drive and it sure makes a difference over the stock drive apple gives you.

I also ordered 3 500gb drives from newegg to put in the internal drive caddy in a raid0 config to handle day to day render large video files.

Im experimenting using Idisk to sync my desktop and AAsync to make my little lacie sync via the internet on my work system so i dont need to haul around little drives anymore.. so far it works pretty good...


Sounds like a great setup. Shortly I'll be adding some G-Drive raid's into my arsenal. Anything more than what I have right now. I have 3 tbs in my mac pro right now and two 500 gig g-drive externals, but I need more space. Since it's getting a lot cheaper I think I'll drop more down for something that will be safe.

You can never have too much space!

[Stu Maschwitz]

I think Elcurado was talking about using Abobe RGB as the viewing profile in the Colorsync dialog.

Which is a big no-no. The only profiles that should be selected in that dialog are ones that resulted from a calibration procedure.

-Stu

[Lucas Wilson]

Which is a big no-no. The only profiles that should be selected in that dialog are ones that resulted from a calibration procedure.

-Stu

Ok everybody... don't get Stu started about Linear Light and viewing spaces... I can tell he's right on the edge and getting twitchy. :)

With love,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
(currently in Beijing)

[Anders Holck]

Which is a big no-no. The only profiles that should be selected in that dialog are ones that resulted from a calibration procedure.

-Stu

Exactly (like I said in my first reply). I just think Jarreds post was a little confusing.

By the way Stu, have you tested how Redcine bridges to the windowmanager/Colorsync.

From my understanding if an app is not color managed Mac OS X assumes the color space is sRGB.
The problem with Redcine is of cause that it does not output directly to a REC709 display thru HDSDI.
So would the correct way be to set the ouput space/gamma to sRGB while adjusting and change to Rec709 for final output?

Setting it to adobe RGB 1998 would allow for a large gamut but the onscreen image would seem washed out because the working space is never converted to the viewing space.

[Anders Holck]

Or Luki of cause :-)

[Thom Steinhoff]

Okay, your words came at a great time as I just got a macbook pro and am getting my workflow together in anticipation of my camera that is in the next batch.

I'm working on a Macbook pro with latest final cut, set the display to 2.2, Set Quicktime 7.3 to use the same as final cut, then go into Red Alert. I'm opening up Jim's R3D footage. Play around with it a bit until it has a distinctive look, then "Make Quicktimes"

When I run the quicktimes or load them into Final Cut--they show radical changes (so I know I am having an affect) but they are dark as if they are doing a funky gamma dance.

I've been combing the threads for hours now hoping not ask questions that would be answered with "do a little searching" but I can't seem to find it.

Heeeeelp!!!!

[Anders Holck]

What I mean is that ultimately you sould have a source colorspace (Red camera space), a working space (Wide gamut), and the output space and the viewing space (Color sync profile). the output space should be able to be soft proofed on the fly, And both should always be converted for monitoring to the viewing space.

I know Lightroom uses the ProPhoto wide gamut space as the working space, and on screen disply is colormanaged to your viewing profile.

Right now it seems that Redcine and redalert just knows of the source space and the output space, and using the output space as the working space and no color mangegement to the monitor.
This only seems to make sense if you are hardwired to an external monitor calibrated to the output space or if you only need to convert to a flat in gamut file for later color correction.

Is this correct?

[Stu Maschwitz]

Right now it seems that Redcine and redalert just knows of the source space and the output space, and using the output space as the working space and no color mangegement to the monitor.
This only seems to make sense if you are hardwired to an external monitor calibrated to the output space or if you only need to convert to a flat in gamut file for later color correction.

This is certainly how it appears to work. Redcine is not a color managed application.

-Stu

[Jarred Land]

Exactly (like I said in my first reply). I just think Jarreds post was a little confusing.


Im confused by your confusion.. but as long as your not confused, it doesnt really matter.

[Mark L. Pederson]

This only seems to make sense if you are hardwired to an external monitor calibrated to the output space or if you only need to convert to a flat in gamut file for later color correction.


yes. and this is why REDCINE IMHO will have to add the ability to output to a monitor via Kona or Blackmagic - even if it is another version that costs money - or basically, it will be extinct in less than a year.

It does not need to output in realtime - just needs to get it to a monitor - EXACTLY LIKE ... after effects, color, motion, etc.

[Jarred Land]

mark your such a trouble maker :)

[Anders Holck]

Have anyone tried Cinespace with the RED apps.

Either EqualEyes set to emulate Rec709 and use that as the target space inside RedCine or build a cinecube file to RedCine. I know Scratch supports LUT's from cinecube but it might be missing from RedCine.

[Poi Boy]

I bought one of the new 2008 Mac Pro towers for home. 3.0ghz x8-cores with 8gb memory. I put a 160gb 10,000rpm Raptor as boot drive and it sure makes a difference over the stock drive apple gives you.

I also ordered 3 500gb drives from newegg to put in the internal drive caddy in a raid0 config to handle day to day render large video files.

Im experimenting using Idisk to sync my desktop and AAsync to make my little lacie sync via the internet on my work system so i dont need to haul around little drives anymore.. so far it works pretty good...

Hey Jarred, what graphics card did you go with ?
Aloha
-A

[Stu Maschwitz]

yes. and this is why REDCINE IMHO will have to add the ability to output to a monitor via Kona or Blackmagic - even if it is another version that costs money - or basically, it will be extinct in less than a year.

Well sure—if people want to use Redcine as an actual grading solution, which I would recommend against. Those other applications you list would be far better suited for the task.

-Stu

[Mark L. Pederson]

Well sure—if people want to use Redcine as an actual grading solution, which I would recommend against. Those other applications you list would be far better suited for the task.

-Stu

I would recommend against that as well -

but come on Stu - you can't tell me that this app doesn't CRY out for monitor output -

We use Scratch to grade - I want to use REDCINE for best light dailies and exchanging "looks" with camera, and through the pipeline - and it is night and day with a calibrated monitor -

[Mark L. Pederson]

mark your such a trouble maker :)

one or two times a year I make a little trouble - right now, I am just banging my spoon on my high-chair for features I think are important:usd:

[Stu Maschwitz]

...I want to use REDCINE for best light dailies and exchanging "looks" with camera, and through the pipeline - and you it is night and day with a calibrated monitor -

Can't argue with that, especially the last one.

Although I might start a thread about how the whole camera look exchange thing is incomplete without 3D LUT capability in both Redcine and either the camera itself or some kind of outboard device.

-Stu

[Mark L. Pederson]

Although I might start a thread about how the whole camera look exchange thing is incomplete without 3D LUT capability in both Redcine and either the camera itself or some kind of outboard device.

-Stu

Well ... let's get THAT party started!

I have been grinding this in my head a lot lately -

[Mark Pedersen]

yes. and this is why REDCINE IMHO will have to add the ability to output to a monitor via Kona or Blackmagic - even if it is another version that costs money - or basically, it will be extinct in less than a year.

It does not need to output in realtime - just needs to get it to a monitor - EXACTLY LIKE ... after effects, color, motion, etc.

Couldn't agree more...

M

[Kip Hewitt]

Well ... let's get THAT party started!

I have been grinding this in my head a lot lately -

But wait, before you all go... could you please explain how exactly to keep the color looking good under the CURRENT working conditions?

My workflow is: REdAlert to DPX to AfterEffects (for grading) to Prorez/FCP for edit [Yeah, I know... it's the best I could do on a unsupported MacBook].

Should I set After Effects to Adobe 1998 working space? Does that effect the output or just the monitor I'm looking at?

Why do the RedAlert quicktime exports look nothing like they did in RedAlert?

Why does the "Enable Final Cut Studio color compatibility" have no effect on the gamma anymore?

And on and on and on...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Nintey Nine you include the word "Quicktime" anywhere in your question about Gamma consitancy and you're on your own. :D

The worst part of Quicktime is that if it didn't manage Gamma at all we would all be better off. But if feels this insatiable need to screw with your footage. It must be stopped! It's a menace!

[Jarred Land]

Nintey Nine you include the word "Quicktime" anywhere in your question about Gamma consitancy and you're on your own. :D

that, my friend, is probably the best and most accurate post of this entire thread.

[Poi Boy]

Graphics card ?
-A

[Gavin Greenwalt]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n134/im_thatoneguy/QuicktimeSeal.jpg

If you don't know what this means ask gaxelander. ;)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've got a club, stand aside.

[Poi Boy]

really not that cute..go for it.
-A

[Kip Hewitt]

Nintey Nine you include the word "Quicktime" anywhere in your question about Gamma consitancy and you're on your own. :D

The worst part of Quicktime is that if it didn't manage Gamma at all we would all be better off. But if feels this insatiable need to screw with your footage. It must be stopped! It's a menace!

hahahaha got it, thanks. I will go back to my state of blissful unawareness. Could someone please shout from the roof tops when this is all over with?

Poi Boy - My graphics cards is the stock Intel GMA 950 that comes with the black MacBook (non-pro model). Yeah, I know it's not supported, but... one expensive step at a time, right?

[Deanan]

Mark Pederson agreeing with Mark Pedersen...
Must be the twilight zone..

When we release the SDK, Mark is going to write an application
which will support direct out to AJA, Blackmagic, Bluefish and DVS boards.
He promised.

[Anders Holck]

Oh...I just remembered the fun bug in DVDSP 2 where motion content in the menus would be rendered thru the active color sync viewing profile. Pretty bad.
Even worse was that still content was rendered correctly regardless of the color sync setting.

[Cail Young]

Oh...I just remembered the fun bug in DVDSP 2 where motion content in the menus would be rendered thru the active color sync viewing profile. Pretty bad.
Even worse was that still content was rendered correctly regardless of the color sync setting.

Holy crap, really? That makes some headaches from months ago make a lot more sense. Arrrrrgh.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark Pederson agreeing with Mark Pedersen...
Must be the twilight zone..

When we release the SDK, Mark is going to write an application
which will support direct out to AJA, Blackmagic, Bluefish and DVS boards.
He promised.

Many a truth is told in jest. :matrix:

[Deanan]

That's a yes?

[Mark L. Pederson]

That's a yes?

To Kona & ioHD I can do it.

Not sure about the rest. Not sure I care about the rest.

[D Falco]

Hi,

is someone on this forum had test or work with the MATRO MXO which is suppose to make our LCD work as a broacast CRT monitor.
I work whith a EIZO LCD screen for many years now and clibrate it each week (depend how long I work on it).
The thing is to get some black on this kind of screen I calibrate the gamma at 2.3 does somone know how it work whith the MATRO MXO.
on another way if I understand there no way to calibrate you're screen as far as you work with FCP pro or QT because none of those software use colorsync.

About colorsync I would like to know where we can found the color profile use by Red Alert and Red Cine, there are suppose to be (Mac) Librairy/ColorSync/Proriles, but I don't find them there. I would like to find and compare them, know the k° of withe point, compare gammut and match them with some epso print profile...
If someone as any idea, please post it.

David

[Corrado Silveri]

To Kona & ioHD I can do it.

Not sure about the rest. Not sure I care about the rest.

Please, Mark.... Please...

[Steen Dongo]

Yup, we have. The way it works in the simplest form, is that Cinespace EqualEyes takes control over your graphics card and upon launching you load your preferred target space and load your calibrated monitor profile and away you fly. We've been using it for more than a year on featurework and couldn't live without it :)



Have anyone tried Cinespace with the RED apps.

Either EqualEyes set to emulate Rec709 and use that as the target space inside RedCine or build a cinecube file to RedCine. I know Scratch supports LUT's from cinecube but it might be missing from RedCine.

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey Jarred, bit off topic but how do you like the performance of the 160gb 10k raptor for boot drive? Are the performance boot noticeable, any cons besides less drive space?

[Jarred Land]

noticeable difference.. I have the 10gb of Ram installed now as well and things are noticeable. The disk space has never really been an issue because I always use an external raid for storage paired with a 2 or 3 drive internal scratch raid 0... so the 160gb is just for applications.