RED-ONE audio section opinion from a location sound recordist [Archive]

xdissolve

01-28-2008, 02:52 AM

To start, my name is Jeff Deel and I’ve been working quite a bit with Jon Firestone (JFirestone) and his RED-ONE #232, specifically in testing the audio section of the camera. I’ve been doing location sound work for years and have been quite curious about the audio section of the camera since I first learned about it during NAB 2006. What follows is my personal conclusions on the sound section of the camera.

To help avoid making this sound like a long-winded bitch session, I’ll note the things that I like so far. I love the fact that RED decided to go with 24 bit audio rather than the ancient 16 bit standard. I would have liked to have seen higher sample rate capabilities (96K or even 192K), but for me, 48K is totally acceptable. I like the fact that L and R are independently controllable in the headphone section – especially nice when running two different types of microphones. Finally, timecode sync is a godsend. It’s nice to finally be able to use my 744T to its fullest extent.

Now for the gripes and complaints. I realize that a lot of these issues have already been brought up, but I wanted to be fairly thorough about my feelings on everything.

The decision to go with all mini-XLR’s is just plain goofy IMHO. How many microphones do you know of that use that connection natively? All this means is that we have to use more adaptors, which introduces more places for things to go wrong (adaptors getting lost, cables breaking, etc.) Mini-XLR is naturally a weaker connection that’s more prone to breakage. What happens when I’m in the field and one of my mini to full size adaptors breaks? I’m much more prone to have an extra XLR cable or two sitting around rather than another adaptor. I would have even been happy if they had done what Sound Devices did with their 7 series recorders and build in two full-size XLR’s, then go mini on the other two. Ultimately, I don’t know what the inside of the camera looks like or what sort of space constraints RED engineers were up against, but I do know that it’s a fairly bulky camera and I don’t see any outward reason for the mini jacks.

For me, the monitoring/metering section is somewhat lackluster. Even with the headphone amp cranked all the way up, I only get a comfortable level in a relatively normal environment. More gain on that would have been nice, but I’ve yet to find a camera with a strong enough headphone amp to make me happy, so I guess there’s no surprise there. The meters are nice, but I would like to see an update with the option to make them full screen and more detailed for leveling out with a mixer (similar to the option on a lot of Sony HDV cameras). I’m also noticing a strange echo coming from the dead channel when only using one input. Again, this is most likely firmware fixable, but still very annoying.

The pre-amps on this camera just flat-out sound bad to me. Maybe I’m spoiled because I use all Sound Devices pre-amps in my day to day work, but these sounded worse than the pre-amps built into the Canon XL-2 (and I thought those sucked!) I mean, even at NAB 2006 when RED had nothing more than a tent and some titanium blocks to show, I stressed about the importance of audio, specifically pre-amp quality. My dream was that RED might collaborate with Sound Devices for the audio section of the camera. I even took a RED business card over to the Sound Devices booth, told Jon Tatooles all about the RED cam, then took the Sound Devices card back over to RED in hopes that since they’re both smaller, independent companies, there might be some collaboration here. It’s apparent that didn’t happen.

Fan noise is another major concern for me. I understand that there’s a huge amount of processing going on inside a relatively small space, but still, fan noise in the audio recordings is unacceptable. I’ve worked with film cameras before and have had to blimp them, but in very quiet interior scenes, I still picked up camera noise. With video, up until now, this has rarely been a concern. Honestly, I haven’t had a chance to work with RED in real world situations enough to know how much of a problem this is going to be, but the first time we have a blown take due to fan noise, it’s going to become a very real issue.

I may sound overly cynical, but IMHO, I don’t get why this camera sounds so bad. I mean, I understand that this is really the first time that the public has been able to record 4K images and that the image sensor is entirely new, so there’s going to be some bugs that need to get worked out, but come on – we’ve been recording 24/48 for years. The process has been perfected. RED doesn’t have to re-invent the wheel on this one. As a location sound person, the audio section of the RED cam is totally unacceptable. I mean, even the comment in the manual that states “Due to the significantly higher precision and dynamic range of 24 bit sampling, input stage limiters or AGC’s are not provided by the RED-ONE camera” is, to me, utter rubbish. If that were true, why does my 744T, which is capable of 24/192, have both input limiters and a headphone amp limiter? I don’t care what bit rate you’re recording at, peaking can and will happen in real world scenarios, and once you’re audio has peaked, there’s no fixing it in post. Limiters are in place to help keep that from happening and they’re commonly used with good reason.

In the end, I understand that the RED-ONE is a revolutionary new camera that still has a lot of quirks it needs to work out, however, coming from a location sound background, I’m worried that there are some flaws in the audio section that can’t be overcome by firmware updates. In my experience, measuring the dB level of the fans and getting numbers on the S/N ratio is cool and all, but for me, all that really matters is how it works in real world scenarios. Sure, the camera may be quieter than such and such other camera, but if I get fan noise in my recordings, it’s a problem. If I can hear audible pre-amp hiss in my recordings, it’s a problem. If I’m in a situation where I’m unable to use a mixer and have to run a boom directly into camera and I can’t control my levels without digging through layers of menus, it’s a problem. If my audio peaks because there’s no built-in limiter, once again, that’s a problem - period. I in no way want to come across as bashing the RED cam. I’m just a concerned filmmaker and sound recordist that is rather disappointed in what could have been a much more robust section of the camera. I know that future firmware updates will address some of the issues that have been raised, but I’m afraid for the others we’ll have to wait for RED-TWO…

-Jeff Deel

Kevin Halverson

01-28-2008, 03:08 AM

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for your post. You have made some excellent points. I have sent you a PM (private message) about your post.

Please respond to me when you have a chance. I am very interested in your comments.

Kevin Halverson

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-28-2008, 03:41 AM

Pm'ing is for wimps :biggrin: it would be good to have this argument in the cold light of day..

By which I mean that I'm sure we'd all like to hear your thoughts too Kevin.

Mark Pugh

01-28-2008, 05:13 AM

I know that future firmware updates will address some of the issues that have been raised, but I’m afraid for the others we’ll have to wait for RED-TWO…

-Jeff Deel

Thanks for your informed opinion.
Would anyone at Red like to defend the preamps as being of a professional quality.
And if not, (I know it's been asked before) is there any chance that the USB port could be used for audio in from a mixer?

It'd be nice to know so that people could start thinking of alternative sound recording options.
It seems to me that the Red audio will only be good as a guide track for offline editing. :(

Stuart English

01-28-2008, 06:12 AM

Thanks for your informed opinion.
Would anyone at Red like to defend the preamps as being of a professional quality.
And if not, (I know it's been asked before) is there any chance that the USB port could be used for audio in from a mixer?

It'd be nice to know so that people could start thinking of alternative sound recording options.
It seems to me that the Red audio will only be good as a guide track for offline editing. :(

Mark, to use USB the audio would already have to be pre-digitized. (Note to audio mixer manufacturer's - we could accept the data if you can generate it )

Instead the signal from an external mixer will be analog at Line Level, and that has been reported as clean... as has self-powered Mic by some end users.

Mark Pugh

01-28-2008, 06:16 AM

Mark, to use USB the audio would already have to be pre-digitized. (Note to audio mixer manufacturer's - we could accept the data if you can generate it )

Instead the signal from an external mixer will be analog at Line Level, and that has been reported as clean... as has self-powered Mic by some end users.

Thanks, Stuart.

Anders Holck

01-28-2008, 08:12 AM

Mark, to use USB the audio would already have to be pre-digitized. (Note to audio mixer manufacturer's - we could accept the data if you can generate it )

He he....I thought it already existed:
http://sounddevices.com/products/usbpremaster.htm

Not that I believe it would make any difference compared to a fine tuned analog line preamp/AD stage.

Kevin Halverson

01-28-2008, 08:12 AM

Pm'ing is for wimps :biggrin: it would be good to have this argument in the cold light of day..

By which I mean that I'm sure we'd all like to hear your thoughts too Kevin.

Thanks for the comment fergus, but I do have my reasons for asking for the PM. I will explain why as soon as I can. I would encourage anyone with audio comments to PM me if they would.

Kevin

zak forrest

01-28-2008, 08:16 AM

Maybe there could be some tiny USB device you plug into the RED ONE with some audio pots on it?

Kevin Halverson

01-28-2008, 08:18 AM

Mark Pugh

01-28-2008, 08:25 AM

He he....I thought it already existed:
http://sounddevices.com/products/usbpremaster.htm

Not that I believe it would make any difference compared to a fine tuned analog line preamp/AD stage.

Thanks, Anders. It's got the pots. Looks great. Any reason this won't work, anyone???

philper

01-28-2008, 09:39 AM

I understand that most experienced users are well aware of the PM feature, but given that this person's post count was only "2" at the time of his posting, I felt that pointing out that he had been sent a PM would expedite the process. Didn't intend to offend anyone, just need to get in contact with this poster. As I wrote, I will explain why when I can. The USB device idea is one that is being looked at right now.

I don't see how a USB device will help filmmakers working alone. It is true that SD makes a USB input device, but that is not a mixer in common use, and those that are (from small bag-mixers to large consoles) do not provide USB connections. I don't understand the resistance on Red's part to making a camera whose audio section will function at least as well (and similarly) to existing cameras at all price levels. The picture aspect of the camera may be revolutionary, but the audio implementation is substandard so far, although I don't think it would take a lot of work to get it closer to our expectations. Red should consider looking at the audio sections of the cameras it wishes to compete with (other than Dalsa/Genesis types) and consider doing what they do (at least).

Philip Perkins CAS

Elizabeth Lowrey

01-28-2008, 09:53 AM

jbeale

01-28-2008, 10:05 AM

Elizabeth Lowrey

01-28-2008, 10:23 AM

Like everyone else, I think Red should have excellent audio, and to the extent it doesn't, it should be remedied. Sounds like the issues are missing limiter feature, the mic preamp sound quality, and hiss/noise level in some but not all cameras. I haven't heard any complaints yet about quality using line-level inputs (?)

The comparisons I've heard people make so far are to dedicated stand-alone audio recorders. Which is fine, but I'm just curious- is there any video camera or "digital cinema" camera that people have found to have better audio quality?

I would say the audio from both my Sony DSR-300 and Panasonic DVX-100 are superior to all samples of audio I've heard thus far except for the ones that used an outboard mixer. But, of course, microphones have a lot to do with it, and I'm comparing sound obtained from AKG wired condensers to, for example, the audio sample in tonaci's pageant video clips, where he was using a wireless mic system. Not a fair comparison, really.

I think it would be very helpful if someone with the ubiquitous DVX-100 would do a side by side comparison using the same mic and source material. Record three samples, one on the RED using its preamps, one on the RED using an external mixer and line level input, and one recorded on the DVX using its native preamps.

Mark Pugh

01-28-2008, 10:23 AM

jbeale

01-28-2008, 10:52 AM

Red should consider looking at the audio sections of the cameras it wishes to compete with (other than Dalsa/Genesis types) and consider doing what they do (at least). Philip Perkins CAS

I take your point, but my impression is Red's design goal and comparison point is cinema and 35mm film cameras. Every other field of use being "if you can make it fit". Pretty much every design feature seems aimed squarely at cinema and not run-n-gun ENG type shooting: PL mount lens, S35 sensor, relatively large system weight, RAW files, no auto-focus, no auto-exposure, no audio limiters, etc.

Jim Logan

01-28-2008, 10:58 AM

The problem with using the Sound Devices USB Pre is that we would have to have a way to get the drivers into the camera. The USB Pre is a great device and there are other USB audio devices that also offer great preamps but they all require drivers. Can the RED team comment if there is a way to make this work? Will the camera recognise ASIO devices? It would be a great fix.

Bruce Allen

01-28-2008, 11:19 AM

Jeff Deel, congrats on the business-card passing... sounds like you did good thing.

I agree that the timecode out is awesome and of course with the money saved on Red versus comparable cameras, everyone could buy a whole fleet of Sound Devices mixers to solve the problem...

USBPre Looks good to me. I've been whining for a long time that Red either just do the audio inputs properly (cut them down to two if needs be), or forgo DACs, preamps, etc and just have digital inputs. I think it was in this long thread...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3283

We even coaxed Ty Ford to weigh in in another thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=60523&postcount=65

Either way, the Red folks are wonderfully responsive - I'm sure you'll be hearing from them soon.

Eclaire, what you suggested sounds very good too. Maybe wait for firmware build 15 though?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

philper

01-28-2008, 12:19 PM

I have to say that the problems with the audio so far are giving me serious pause about completing my camera purchase in May. I can't justify spending upwards of $25K on a camera package with unusable native audio. I really wish someone from RED would comment on the true hardware aspects of the audio subsystem -- the quality of the preamps, the level of testing and comparison that went into their selection, how they are shielded in camera, etc. -- so that we can get a handle on how much of the noisy, poor sound we've heard in clip samples so far (when utilizing the camera mic pres) might actually be addressable without a redesign of the RED hardware. What I fear is that we are stuck with noisy, ugly audio unless utilizing an outboard mixer, adding drastically to the weight and cumbersomeness of setups for single operator, mobile shooting situations.

These are really good questions, but I wonder if you'll really get them answered unless you rent a current Red and try it out yourself. I think I'm going to do this later this week re: my location sound work, since so many of my clients have ordered the camera. I'd be very interested to hear your opinions of the camera's sound section esp. as it relates to one-person doco work (which is what a lot of my audio post work is on).

Philip Perkins CAS

Joel Kaye

01-28-2008, 12:40 PM

Fact is the hardware is done and dusted.

If it's a firmware thing that would be awesome and we'll probably see a fix soon.

But if it's hardware then it's never too late for a recall. They should fix the audio NOW before they have 2500 cameras to recall. The preamps are a part... they need to get great ones in there.

In the end, sound is probably 65% of a movie. Visuals can be all over the map but sound HAS to be great. This issue is never going to go away. I think everyone IS happy with 24bit uncompressed, but bad preamps pretty much makes that irrelevant.

10s

01-28-2008, 12:47 PM

I figured out how to solve all these audio problems. I'll gaff tape my DVX100 to the RED camera and record the audio into the DVX then transfer the audio over in the NLE.

Do you think this will work? :waaa:

I dream of a simple functioning camera that is easy to use, delivers superior image & sound in a robust form that will hold up under physically demanding conditions at a reasonable price.

jbeale

01-28-2008, 12:53 PM

I don't mean to excuse Red if their design is flawed, but is it typical to shoot for cinema release while having no soundman, no mixer, no external preamp and rely only on in-camera mic preamps? Does that usually work well?

One person mentioned the Panasonic DVX100 as a sound reference. I owned a DVX100 for a while. For what it's worth, here is a test I did on its built-in sound: http://beale.best.vwh.net/measure/audio/DVX100.htm

I brought that camera to an accredited Panasonic service place, paid $100 to have them check it out, and they pronounced it A-OK and meets manufacturing specs. It has since been sold so I cannot do further tests.

10s

01-28-2008, 01:22 PM

... is it typical to shoot for cinema release while having no soundman, no mixer, no external preamp and rely only on in-camera mic preamps? Does that usually work well?

Last time I checked 99% of cinema is shot on film, and those cameras don't record sound, therefor they need all the extras. These legacy systems work well but it's not the only viable method. Shooting 4k video is a new beginning, I believe the audio section should also strive to break new ground.

RED has the opportunity to design a system that goes beyond the norm.

I'm hoping they'll get there eventually.

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-28-2008, 04:17 PM

Thanks for the comment fergus, but I do have my reasons for asking for the PM. I will explain why as soon as I can. I would encourage anyone with audio comments to PM me if they would.

Kevin

Hey no worries Kevin,

I was joking really.. :clown2:

Which I shouldn't be doing in such a serious thread!

I wonder about this usb solution. I think the thing is that decent preamps are kind of large and heavyish and need a bit of power, so it's never going to be light enough to be the kind of kit you'd want to attach to the camera. Especially as this onboard sound solution is really of interest to EFP people, who want everything to be small and light, like an iphone :usd: (I include myself in that category).
We could sling a mixer round our necks and feed line level to the camera. But my experience is that we'll get hopelessly tangled in the cables.

Stuart wrote on Saturday that he was testing the Silent fan mode at 75 degree ambient for one hour: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=145173&postcount=15

And he also suggested, and some other users agreed, that the hiss was perhaps still a firmware issue.

The RED user manual states that the 24bit no audio pots idea is a revolutionary approach to recording audio: just set the level real low and fix it in post. I get the impression that they are imagining this is like changing the ISO metadata on the picture side. Of course we can still adjust the exposure manually though eh...
I think it could be made to work, but it is still a bit half arsed. Which is a phrase that I believe may sum up RED's approach to the audio. And I mean as a company here, I'm not talking about individuals. They are all working flat out at RED HQ!
But if this had been a picture quality thread of this importance, Jim would have posted already..

Still I'm excited! And I'm ready to believe that it's all going to be ok in the end.. (just like in the movies).

Stephen Pruitt

01-28-2008, 04:46 PM

I have begged and begged for a digital input for the audio. I don't care what type (Firewire, USB, etc.). A digital-straight-to-flash input would bypass the RED's preamps, it's line-level amp, it's converters, etc. And it would allow me to take a digital signal straight from an SD744T and then not worry about having to synch up the audio with the video.

That, my friends, is what I have wanted from the beginning. I sure hope someone can make this happen.

RED????? Can you PLEASE give us a four-track audio digital input????

PRETTY PLEASE?

Stephen

xdissolve

01-28-2008, 05:01 PM

To me, the idea of setting the level low and bringing it up in post is ridiculous. 24 bit or no 24 bit, there’s still a signal to noise ratio, and recording low and normalizing in post will bring the noise floor up. Having that extra bit depth helps, but it certainly isn’t an excuse to just set your levels once and never worry about it again. For me, the entire lack of so many physical manual controls is a bit disturbing (for both picture and sound).

Stephen, I whole heartedly agree. Being able to run two BNC’s from the 744 back to two AES/EBU inputs on the camera would have been genius. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, unless something comes along that goes through USB, I don’t really see it happening with the current hardware.

Elizabeth Lowrey

01-28-2008, 05:38 PM

These are really good questions, but I wonder if you'll really get them answered unless you rent a current Red and try it out yourself. I think I'm going to do this later this week re: my location sound work, since so many of my clients have ordered the camera. I'd be very interested to hear your opinions of the camera's sound section esp. as it relates to one-person doco work (which is what a lot of my audio post work is on).

Philip Perkins CAS

Unfortunately, my neck of the woods (northwest Florida) is not the kind of place where you could rent a RED. But I do know that a company in Pensacola has theirs now. One of the guys posts on this board, and I made a casual phone call when I realized that someone else near me would be getting one. (If you're reading this, Craig, hello!:biggrin:) I don't really know Craig but might give him a call to see if he'd be interested in doing some audio comparison tests that we could then post.

In the mean time, if you do get to test the camera soon, I'm sure we all would love to hear some samples and get your feedback and opinions. I'm hoping that if enough folks like yourself with really good credentials can make enough noise, the problems that exist with the audio can be addressed before mass production really gets underway and fixing them becomes a whole new financial and practical kettle of fish.

jbeale

01-28-2008, 05:40 PM

If Red does enable a USB audio input, maybe this would help. It appears to be the size of an in-line XLR attenuator, provides +48P, gives you a USB output.
http://www.mxlmics.com/condenser_mic/micMate/micMate.htm

I've never seen one, and given it only costs $80, I wouldn't expect too much.

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-28-2008, 08:18 PM

Stephen and xdissolve: I agree with you both. I'm mean who the hell is ever going to use four mic level inputs (meaning four separate mics on location) without having a sound person there to supply the extra mics/rig them on the talent/deal with the many issues that mics throw up.. (especially radios)? And if you've got a sound person then you've most likely got a mixer and, these days, a field recorder (744T etc) so again you don't need 4 mic level inputs on RED..
What would be useful is: two full size mic/line level inputs with top class pre-amps and limiters, and little audio pots. And then two digital in's which would give us 4 digital line level inputs (that would be bit of a revolution.. or at least fairly cutting edge..). But as Bruce and Finner (and many others) will tell you, this is an argument that some people on REDuser have been making for a LONG time..

Like I said: "half arsed".

And it's a real shame because the camera part seems to be awesome!

Stephen Pruitt

01-28-2008, 09:07 PM

How I would love to avoid to have to synch in post. . . how beautiful it would be if we could just take digital audio straight in to the RED from our digital recorders. . .

. . . but it's all just fiction at the moment.

:-(

Maybe someone at RED is listening. . . MAN, it would have been so easy to give us a digital input. Sooooo easy.

BTW, are there any boxes that can convert Firewire output to USB in realtime??? That way I could take a Firewire cable out of the 744T and then to the converter box and then straight into the RED's USB port. . . IF they will only audio-enable the USB port.

Stephen

xdissolve

01-28-2008, 09:12 PM

Hmm, good idea Stephen, but I’m pretty sure the 744T doesn’t output it’s audio over firewire in realtime unless you use the optional DVD-RAM drive… not that Sound Devices couldn’t change that with a firmware update, but for instance, right now you can’t connect your 744T to your laptop and record in real time, only transfer files from the internal hard disk.

Stuart English

01-28-2008, 09:20 PM

How I would love to avoid to have to synch in post. . . how beautiful it would be if we could just take digital audio straight in to the RED from our digital recorders. . . Maybe someone at RED is listening. . . MAN, it would have been so easy to give us a digital input. Sooooo easy.

If you want to send multi-channel digital audio to RED then the first step is to find the right USB device. Meanwhile if you are willing to use an external mixer at all, the line input option is already available to you, and I know from personal experience works well. And I have been told clients are commenting that the sound quality on RED is better than other on-camera recordings that they have used before. So as always test, test and test again.. we will keep on doing that to wring maximum performance out of every aspect of this system.

Jeff Coatney

01-28-2008, 09:28 PM

xdissolve

01-28-2008, 09:54 PM

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-28-2008, 09:58 PM

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

It depends on the scenario. If I am filming an observational long form documentary, (say about a violinist, to keep the audio challenging), then yes I am going to want to have a sound recordist there and/or be recording to a separate device. However just say we are using a 744T here. We'll I'm going to be using my stereo mic to record the music which means that all the mic level audio inputs are used up on the 744. So even in this scenario I'd want to have two mics going into the camera at mic level: a lav on the performer, and then either another lav on another subject in the scene or a shotgun mounted on the camera so I can go and get whatever sync sound I might want from the multiple subjects on camera. Also these camera mics will help me to easily sync the sound from the 744T in post.

It's just one example and of course there are other ways of solving this problem; but the point is that this sort of real EFP solution works great right now with any number of video cameras.

Now in many EFP situations I won't have a sound recordist. It's just me and the Director. Or if it's one of my crazy movies, it might just be me following a subject for ages.. So I would need easy, high quality mic level camera sound. Punto as they say in Italy

10s

01-28-2008, 10:05 PM

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

Jeff, you're probably correct but I think RED has the opportunity to go beyond the normal systems of today and create something new, something better, and why not? With the advent of digital wireless technologies there's room for quantum improvements. A system that can carry all the eggs in one basket might be a very nice tool to have available. That to me seems in alignment with the RED Revolution.

As for on-board specs ... the old DAT recorder is much worse on all sorts of specs than some current cameras. The new Sound Devices gear, etc. is another story, but just a few years back DAT was considered acceptable.

It's curious that there is a crowd keenly interested in seeing the RED camera as a dual system dependent tool, why? I can't see any advantage with a dual system limitation.

Mark Allen

01-28-2008, 10:12 PM

Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

This could be my personal bias as someone who has worked a tremendous amount in post production - but I absolutely feel that some day film students will look back at the days when sound was recorded to a separate device much as today's students look at a moviola - much the same as imagining a barber as a surgeon. Hard to imagine the logic.

I think as we move into the future of productioin - the speed demands will only increase.

I will never forget back in my post days being on tech support with ProTools many years ago for a movie mix we were doing when we encountered and undocumented limitation of the program and the programmer on the other line of the phone said - "You're using ProTools to mix a movie?"

Kenn Michael

01-28-2008, 10:21 PM

I will never forget back in my post days being on tech support with ProTools many years ago for a movie mix we were doing when we encountered and undocumented limitation of the program and the programmer on the other line of the phone said - "You're using ProTools to mix a movie?"

That's a great quote!

I remember having a hard time convincing producer colleagues of mine to produce entire records in ProTools!

Times are a changin!

planet e

01-29-2008, 08:29 AM

I think as we move into the future of productioin - the speed demands will only increase.

Mark Allen has completely, absolutely, positively nailed this, and I don't know why RED isn't being as attendant to revolutionizing the future of sound production as they have been with image.

Travel docs are taking us to places where we've never been, and we can't always squeeze in there with a crew. I have a big hard drive full of never-before-seen images of Bhutan, and I have a long-term plan to go back and finish the documentary project with a RED. I will be lucky to get *myself* with a camera into some of these places, let alone a sound recordist....

There are many situations where on-camera sound will be essential. I don't see these as "few" at all...I also plan to use this as the ultimate wildlife recording device...imagine the impact if Jim had been able to record good sound on the "lunch with your buddies footage"

There are MANY, not few, applications where on-camera sound could be used.

Stephen Pruitt

01-29-2008, 08:48 AM

Stuart English

01-29-2008, 09:23 AM

I certainly DO plan to record the audio for my feature with a dual system. But I'd like to be doing so as a BACK-UP ONLY. . . not as the primary recording method. The time costs of having to synch up all of the audio files with the video files on a 1000 shot feature are just mind-blowing. Sure, I want the audio files there on a disk IF something untoward happened inside the camera, but I sure don't want to have to use 'em. I want my audio files, all nice and neat, inside my RED, beautifully synched with my pretty video pictures.

Lets keep this real guys, there are lots of assumptions being made here.

a) If you are prepared to do backup audio recording, then you have an external mixer / recorder and you could therefore feed the RED-ONE with Line Level inputs.

b) No-one from RED has said that the camera has only been designed for dual system sound, but we do agree that it is a very flexible and high quality approach.

c) Mic and +48V are where we heard hiss. We are working through that. With Build 13, using self powered microphones seems to be O.K - at least for most people.

The audio system IS a 24 bit system not 16, and it could in theory accept pre-digitized signals via USB, so there are differences of approach in the system design. We do want your operational feedback, we are here to serve our customers requirements.

planet e

01-29-2008, 09:55 AM

b) No-one from RED has said that the camera has only been designed for dual system sound

that's true, but the absence of pots makes this substantially more difficult...I'm sure with practice, I'll get speedier at making audio adjustments in the menu, but it is definitely inefficient. And currently, you can't read the meters while you're in the gain menu, which is exponentially inefficient. That definitely needs to be re-worked!

I imagine that I can plug in my MixPre and voila instant external controls, but then I'm busted back down to 2-channel control, more weight, more mounting, more cables, more batteries/energy supply to worry about. Et cetera. It's sloppy, if you're working alone, and a less-than-ideal work-around.

I simply didn't expect this feature set to be so clunky, and I had to get my hands on the camera before the issues on the type of work that I do, mostly, became obvious. I have 2 cameras ordered, and the second one was specifically ordered with an eye towards being able to travel alone with it. Its efficacy for that application, with the current audio situation, as I understand it, is giving me pause.

I have kept very calm about most issues, trusting RED to work every possible issue out over time, but poor audio controls is something that can make my shoots in tight places and fast conditions a misery.

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.

Thanks to Jeff Deel for chiming in on the matter, finally seems to be getting a little traction.

Dave Dessel

01-29-2008, 11:10 AM

When I'm shooting as a one man band, I'm considering this device to solve level control issues, and line input requirements. I plan to mount this on one of the Red Side handles for direct control. It certainly beats dragging along a larger mixer, and can easily be switched out from a camera mount or lav mic when needed. There is also a limiter and low cut filter, which is a big plus when you're doing everything yourself. While not a perfect fix, it doesn't seem too cumbersome, for those of us who shoot as a one-man-band. Any thoughts?

Click Here

http://http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html)

Dave Dessel, #: 522

www.daviddessel.com

Stephen Pruitt

01-29-2008, 11:11 AM

Stuart. . . you're completely missing my point here. Even using the RED's line in, you are STILL running through a less-than-superb line-level gain stage (surely there is some sort of a level adjustment on the line-in, right? I can't imagine that to not run through "the best" components available :-) AND a less-than-superb AD converter (probably the ones that sell for $2.99 in Singapore). I'd much rather be able to use much better dedicated audio components for those crucial procedures.

My point is that, if we can go direct digital in, we can use great audio compenents AND have our signals fully synched and not have to mess around with all that huge mess in post. Two birds get killed with one stone! I want the RED to allow us to be "An Army of One". . . or, at least. . . as much of "one" as we can possibly be.

Stephen

Elizabeth Lowrey

01-29-2008, 11:23 AM

that's true, but the absence of pots makes this substantially more difficult...I'm sure with practice, I'll get speedier at making audio adjustments in the menu, but it is definitely inefficient. And currently, you can't read the meters while you're in the gain menu, which is exponentially inefficient. That definitely needs to be re-worked!

I imagine that I can plug in my MixPre and voila instant external controls, but then I'm busted back down to 2-channel control, more weight, more mounting, more cables, more batteries/energy supply to worry about. Et cetera. It's sloppy, if you're working alone, and a less-than-ideal work-around.

I simply didn't expect this feature set to be so clunky, and I had to get my hands on the camera before the issues on the type of work that I do, mostly, became obvious. I have 2 cameras ordered, and the second one was specifically ordered with an eye towards being able to travel alone with it. Its efficacy for that application, with the current audio situation, as I understand it, is giving me pause.

. . .

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.

Great post. I concur 100%.

Joel Kaye

01-29-2008, 11:37 AM

I want the RED to allow us to be "An Army of One". . . or, at least. . . as much of "one" as we can possibly be.

Ditto. If you have to bring 4 guys with you every time you want to shoot and get audio then you may as well RENT RED. The reason to OWN a camera is because you want to use it ANY friggin' time you want to and you're going to shoot it a lot.

Stuart English

01-29-2008, 12:25 PM

planet e

01-29-2008, 12:31 PM

Don't worry, we are not done with this yet...

that's exactly what i wanted to hear...you RED folks rock my world, thanks!

true believer here...

10s

01-29-2008, 12:53 PM

I think I've finally seen the light! I was wrong wanting a camera that is simple, complete and easy to control, but now "I get it."

C'mon people, really, who wants a camera that allows us to be an army of one? Wouldn't it be much better to have a camera that requires a large number of people and gear, after all, isn't this about looking good?

Let's say, you've been shooting a feature and you happen to look outside and the sky looks just right for a few shots. Wouldn't you rather lug around loads of audio gear and go through numerous availability scheduling conversations, pay issues, rental issues with a number of people? Or would you rather simply jump in the car and go get the shots?

Of course if you're a pro you'd want to do it the hard way because it looks like a big production, and what your doing isn't really about making a film, it's about looking big and professional. Afterall, who really wants, "a camera that can record great audio with easily accessible contols."

This is a cinema camera. This camera should require at least 6 to 8 extra people before it can even be turned on. Professional film makers demand huge crews, tons of money with investors telling us what to do and complicated systems that constantly breakdown.

Just kidding!

Stephen Pruitt

01-29-2008, 01:43 PM

Good post, 10s. . . as for me. . . I'm just a po' boy. Err. . . at least I'm becoming that way since I foolishly started down this merry lane.

THAT'S IT! This whole RED adventure is like a drug addiction! It started out innocently enough. . . a true, cinema-quality video camera at the hitherto unheard-of price of $17,500! But then there came the lens. The batteries. The storage. The handles. Etc. Before long, my $17,500 dream had started to bloat so badly I confused it with the Medicaid budget! And THAT'S ONLY IF I WANT TO MAKE SILENT FILMS!!!! :-)

Throw in a great outboard mixer, a couple of great mics, an outboard recorder, etc., and my cinema budget is starting to look like Madonna's sparkling water bill!

Seriously, I love what this camera is going to allow me to do, but I REALLY don't want to have to deal with substandard audio connections on a $17,500 camera. A digital input would just rock my world about now. Then, and only then, will I be able to truly make audio clips every bit the equal of my pretty eye-candy visuals.

Stephen

Brent J. Craig

01-29-2008, 02:07 PM

Hold on, you're saying this Red Camera can be used on so-called 'talking pictures' as well?!?

Never mind about that, the "talkies" are a passing fad. Who wants to go to the picture shows and hear some yammering idiot drown out the piano player?

number6

01-29-2008, 03:43 PM

Maybeeeee.... maybeeee.... maybe that Scarlet thing is like a piggy back add-on to the RED one and it will link with RED one to act as a viewfinder while collecting perfect sound!

Just musing aloud. Probably not.:calm:

Stephen Pruitt

01-29-2008, 04:55 PM

And it will only cost. . . ANOTHER $17,500!

:-)

Walter R

01-29-2008, 06:31 PM

Hi Dave,

Instead of the MP-1 we will be using a Sound Devices MixPre, most likely mounted on the top rails behind the top handle. I don't really like the idea of having something sticking out on a side handle, but maybe that will work for you.

We considered the MP-1 first, but it is basically the same size (though slightly lighter) as the MixPre. With the MixPre we get two channels and the nice LED meters. Mounted flat on top (on the top rails), when my partner is shooting and I'm running sound I should be able to see the meters from the side and tweak the gain if necessary... A solo shooter should also be able to see levels in the Red LCD/EVF and reach up to ride levels after they've gotten a sense of where the knobs are. When we want four channels, we'll use the MixPre onboard, then a Sound Devices 302 mixer to feed the other two channels.

We haven't done much testing of audio on our Red camera yet, but I must say I have only expected line level to give us the quality we need - I never expected mic preamps inside the Red could give us the same quality as external preamps.

Now if someone comes up with a compact device that provides great mic preamps, a great DA converter, etc. and feeds digital audio to the Red through USB, that will be even better.

When I'm shooting as a one man band, I'm considering this device to solve level control issues, and line input requirements. I plan to mount this on one of the Red Side handles for direct control. It certainly beats dragging along a larger mixer, and can easily be switched out from a camera mount or lav mic when needed. There is also a limiter and low cut filter, which is a big plus when you're doing everything yourself. While not a perfect fix, it doesn't seem too cumbersome, for those of us who shoot as a one-man-band. Any thoughts?

Click Here

http://http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html)

Dave Dessel, #: 522

www.daviddessel.com

Brian Ferguson

01-29-2008, 08:09 PM

I have kept very calm about most issues, trusting RED to work every possible issue out over time, but poor audio controls is something that can make my shoots in tight places and fast conditions a misery.

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.

Thanks to Jeff Deel for chiming in on the matter, finally seems to be getting a little traction.

Mr. Planet E,

Thanks for acknowledging that we are on the second build of audio. In fact we at Red are getting exposed to the audio being enabled almost at the same time as the users. I too feel confident that we will be able to address issues and make users as proud of the audio as they are of the image.

I have been associated with Red since before NAB 2006 and one thing I have noticed is that there are a lot of really smart people here. We are aware of issues regarding audio and are steadfastly working to make things better. Sometimes we don't reply fast enough because we have to read the boards after hours on our own time to see what topics are brewing.

I am a DoP/Director/Editor who shot interviews and other topics for years for Oakley. I have a pretty wide assortment of Sound Devices equipment and various pro mics, and use this equipment everyday at Red to test our gear and give feedback to the development team. These message boards are moving at a pace that makes it hard to always chime in in a timely manner. All I can say is I am really optimistic about our team and that we (I) want the audio to be as good an experience as the visuals. But as you mentioned it was only enabled on build 12.

That being said I recently shot a corporate promotion piece for a friend that was totally dialog driven. They had a short production schedule and I was really impressed with the quality of the audio I was hearing in the edit bay. There were a few issues on the set, there always are. But rest assured there are people here who are also in your shoes and sharing real world production experiences with the Red development team. All of your input is very useful.

I have probably heard more Red cameras through headphones than anyone alive and Build 13 really helped, and I know it is only going to get better from here. I just know that we always strive to make the camera better and with our dedication to customer service - the best way to make the user happy is by pleasing the ears and the eyes. Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg

Elizabeth Lowrey

01-29-2008, 08:12 PM

Brian, thanks for that post. Nice to see the "squeaky wheel" getting some grease in the audio forum.:biggrin:

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-29-2008, 08:20 PM

I have probably heard more Red cameras through headphones than anyone alive and Build 13 really helped, and I know it is only going to get better from here. I just know that we always strive to make the camera better and with our dedication to customer service - the best way to make the user happy is by pleasing the ears and the eyes. Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg

Brian: That's what we were crying out to hear!

In Tarantino's words (Pulp Fiction):

"Jules: I don't wanna hear about no motherfxxxin' ifs. All I wanna hear from your ass is, "You ain't got no problem, Jules. I'm on the motherfxxxer. Go back in there, chill them niggers out and wait for the cavalry, which should be coming directly."
Marsellus: You ain't got no problem, Jules. I'm on the motherfxxxer. Go back in there, chill them niggers out and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly.
Jules: You sending the Wolf??
Marsellus: Oh, you feel better, motherfxxxer?
Jules: Sxxt yeah Negro! that's all you had to say"

Brian Ferguson

01-29-2008, 08:24 PM

Ah well Fergus! That is almost half my name!

number6

01-29-2008, 08:32 PM

Brian, post 56 was reassuring.

Thanks.

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-29-2008, 08:33 PM

Ah well Fergus! That is almost half my name!

You need to get Jim to give you a cool car like The Wolf's too.. something very fast... :)

Maybe we should start a "Give The Wolf a cool car" thread..?

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-29-2008, 08:37 PM

Brian, post 56 was reassuring.

Thanks.

I liked your Scarlet idea though, Number 6.. that was genius as ever :gun:

Are you still planning on burning down your house when you film your first RED feature?

number6

01-29-2008, 08:41 PM

I liked your Scarlet idea though, Number 6.. that was genius as ever :gun:

Are you still planning on burning down your house when you film your first RED feature?

Hah! No! It's too late! the house burned on schedule but my RED did not arrive on schedule.

(The previous was a complete drama tie zation... but you get me point.):usd:

edit: I'm not really British... I just fancy little green geckos who speak with a British accent.

second edit: And I also like commercials that use Scottish accents as well, although I can't think of a particular one offhand.

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-29-2008, 11:10 PM

Hah! No! It's too late! the house burned on schedule but my RED did not arrive on schedule.

(The previous was a complete drama tie zation... but you get me point.):usd:

edit: I'm not really British... I just fancy little green geckos who speak with a British accent.

second edit: And I also like commercials that use Scottish accents as well, although I can't think of a particular one offhand.

Oh No! You'll have to burn someone else's house down then. In the name of ART.

Commercials.. probably for Whiskey.. or the delights of deep fried Mars Bars :love:

planet e

01-30-2008, 12:08 AM

Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg

Hi Brian: In the future, please address me as Ms. Planet E. However, Dr. Planet E, straight up, works fine as well... heh...

I'm very reassured that you and Stuart both heard my plaintive cry into the audio wilderness.

I've been following JFirestone's efforts at testing audio and posting his results over the past several weeks and was growing increasingly concerned at the team's seemingly lackluster response...it seemed like "use a dual-recording system, you cheap stupid bastard" was about as far as the conversation ever developed. That repeated sentiment is a real conversation-killer and does nothing to address how RED will be deployed in the types of field work and international travel for which I plan to use my 2nd camera...

As Mark Allan succinctly stated, the future of production is characterized by speed, and the pairing of a forward-thinking image-maker with the current audio structure seemed awkward and antithetical to speed, efficiency, and quality. My second camera was booked with the belief that all systems, audio, image and post, would be looking forward into exactly this future.

I feel confident that when RED isolates an issue, it gets addressed in a timely fashion, but this one seemed to be falling by the wayside.

But I'm glad that it seems that the audio issues are finally being heard and that y'all aspire to putting world-class audio to a world-class image.

It is great to know that you and Stuart and the rest are jumping on the case. Thank you for listening. I look forward to seeing what sorts of audio enhancements you have in store for us over the next few builds.

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-30-2008, 01:01 AM

Good Luck in Bhutan Dr Planet E

That's a crazy interesting place..

I share your concern about using RED in such scenarios. It'll take a little ingenuity I think to rig the camera for single person use (especially in that sort of environment). The audio is one very important factor, but then we have the weight and size, and workflow (although that will surely improve faster than anything else). I'm sitting here trying to imagine what I can get away with not putting on the camera, and I'm hopeful that over the next month we'll see some innovative solutions posted here.

number6

01-30-2008, 08:21 AM

Hi Brian: In the future, please address me as Ms. Planet E. However, Dr. Planet E, straight up, works fine as well... heh...

Oh good, a doctor.

Doc! I've got this phantom itch... you know, like when your foot itches but your leg has been cut off? Well anyway, I have this itch between my two palms when they are spread apart about this much. It's like there's this 10 lb. weight there, but when I open my eyes and look, there's nothing.

Someone who only plays a doctor on the internet said it was probably the RED itch. Still, I would like a second opinion.

How 'bout it Doc? Any ideas?:help:

planet e

01-30-2008, 08:37 AM

number6

01-30-2008, 08:59 AM

you people are nuts...but you knew that already...

i'm a RED itch sufferer myself, number6, and the only known cure is a to drink the RED kool-aid...

also available in our easy to swallow RED pill form...

take the RED pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

our blue pill, on the other hands, cures constipation and may go a-ways towards easing the RED itch, but it costs $250K...i highly recommend the kool-aid, sweet with no bad after-taste...

I had doubt about your bonafides as a doctor, but your prescription seems dead on. I was further convinced of your authenticity when you stated a blue pill costs 250k. (I can get them over the internet for about $2 a pill.)

You doctors and your fancy cars and fancy cameras.:) What a racket. OBTW, i don't have insurance :bleh:

planet e

01-30-2008, 02:10 PM

to move this back on-topic, I want to thank Jeff again for his contribution to this discussion and add that I hope you continue to post your findings as new Builds are released.

I visited 2 sets of RED cameras (3 cams total) in the past two weeks, and one of the sets of owners did not care at all about what RED offered with audio, because they only intended to use the audio as part of a dual recording system and the other one, a smaller shop, was just as concerned as I was. It occurred to me that the first batch of initial testers likely resembled the larger outfit, and it is only recently that these smaller operators are beginning to get cameras in their hands, and their/my/our needs are only beginning to get a real voice, just as the audio is in initial release. So the audio conversation is quite a bit behind. We need to pump up the volume on this, so to speak....

Taking delivery on my first RED camera is a no-brainer, because it is for my business, and it has already paid for its keep in both tangible and intangible ways. And I'm grateful to RED for launching me on this adventure. It will almost always be used with a dual recording system. But the second RED I ordered to use more on my pet projects, with an eye towards using it as a 2nd camera for the studio when necessary.

So I have a foot in two camps, we'll be double recording for studio work and for the feature we're shooting this summer. But I also need this to be a one-man band type of camera. I need to be able to take it back to Bhutan, to a few UNESCO World Heritage sites, etc. etc. If it's not that camera, I will be bummed out.

I believe that it will be. I believe RED listens more closely than any other camera company on earth. They have the will to make this the best camera on the planet, period. With audio quality that matches image quality. Bring it, I'm ready for my world tour!

Steve Sherrick

01-30-2008, 04:45 PM

I probably should have been a louder voice at the very beginning in regards to audio. I did put in my wishlist, but I'm sure a lot of factors went into Red's decisions about audio.

It breaks down like this. If the hiss issues are worked out and the mic pres are good enough to get through some down and dirty one man band style shoots, then Red is halfway there on this issue. Ideally, the mic pres would have been provided by Sound Devices or similar build quality but let's face it the cost goes up at that point. How much, I don't know. I agree that the quality should at the very least be as good as any high end HD camera on the market today. Anything less doesn't make sense because as much as this is a digital cinema camera it's also able to be used in many other configurations. I haven't done my own tests, so I'm going based on the feedback so far. I'm hoping that Red at least meets the expectations I've outlined above. Not being able to use the onboard mic pres, although not a dealbreaker for me would be disappointing. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. The SD Mix Pre is a great option, and very manageable for a one man band situation.

Dual system sound. For those who want to see it go by the wayside, keep in mind that having a sound person who is as focused on sound as the cameraman is on visuals is extremely important. So many good independent films killed by bad location sound. Often inexperienced filmmakers think they can do it all, and the really good ones can sometimes because they understand the process enough, but others shoot themselves in the foot and want to stick the mic on the camera and call it a day. Doesn't work that way. Having the sound person mixing and recording gives them complete control over the sound of the film. The can send a good reference track to the camera which can be used in editing and then conformed with the hi-res audio later. When budget is a concern or you need to just get it on tape, then sure you do what you can with the on-board audio and that is why Red needs to make it solid, both mic and line input signals. But for those who want to see double system completely eliminated, I wonder about the approach. You are relying on others to not change audio settings, accidently change your levels, etc. There are times when double system sound makes so much sense.

So, as for external pots(which I wanted very badly) Red has mentioned the Supergrip as a solution. We'll see how that is implemented. Could work. Connectors should have been full-size xlrs but we'll deal with what we got. That was a decision that probably has some reasoning but not sure it has ever been officially mentioned. Signals will need to be tested for waveform accuracy, frequency charting, etc, etc. In the months to come we will know more about the Red's audio capabilities. If we have learned anything from these couple of years of development, Red s listening and they want to improve on their designs when they can.

I have not heard fan noise yet. Will be very soon and I will determine how much of an issue this is for me. I will post my thoughts when I have heard them in action. Looking forward to seeing these new builds that are going to be released soon. We may very well see improvements across the board.

Steve

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-30-2008, 08:47 PM

Good Post Steve. I think you put it quite succinctly :-)

For me: IF the micpre's prove to be unusable that would be a deal breaker; and many other people I believe. But I don't that will happen.
The Supergrip! Ahh yeah, I remember when we all arguing about the RED audio back last June, Jarred posted to say that the Supergrip would be the solution to having no audio pots. But we have no price, no mock-up, no weight, no size, no idea how it could be connected to the camera.. which could be a good thing, as RED have the opportunity to really think about how EFP single operators would use such an item and make it to suit them too. Specifically: if The Supergrip weighs 2kg, and has to be mounted on the rods instead of the camera, then that will not be very useful for a single EFP person IMO.

I agree that RED is listening, and are also working hard to make the camera as good as possible. And it's great to hear from Stuart and Brian "The Wolf" Ferguson in the audio section. But I think it speaks volumes about the priority given to Audio that Jim has never (to my knowledge) posted about it. Not that the man has too for RED to be working on it, but as Planet E pointed out, other threads and concerns do seem to get much more attention.

It would be supremely ironic if RED Build 15 gets bad reviews, or people choose not to buy it because the audio is not up to scratch!

Steve Sherrick

01-30-2008, 08:59 PM

The more components we have to add to the camera and support gear, the bulkier the camera becomes (not that it's unusual in the high end world to have bulky rigs) but for the folks who want lean, mean camera rigs the more audio interfaces, breakout boxes, etc you need to add to the camera the less mobile you become. Just something to keep in mind as we keep talking about additional things to improve/fix issues.

Steve

Tail Ends

01-30-2008, 09:39 PM

Jeff did us all a service by reminding us that all image and no sound does not a good film make. From a producer's POV, this is a critical issue and one Red needs to address immediately--and it seems they are taking these thoughtful comments seriously.

Jeff Coatney

01-31-2008, 02:35 AM

Fergus Meiklejohn

01-31-2008, 05:56 AM

I don't think so jeff..

planet e

01-31-2008, 07:49 AM

As someone who's tried to get good audio and great picture at the same time, I've always found that dividing my attention between the two is a bad idea. The camera operator should focus (no pun intended) on the image and sound should gets the same level of attention from a dedicated professional.

Let's clarify something--no one disputes that it is preferable to run sound and image separately. This is not a point of disagreement. So stop trying to make it one.

The "debate" over whether to run single or dual system recording is not a debate, it is a distraction from the point of this thread: How does the current on-board audio system measure up to the standards of the other RED systems? And also against other existing camera systems which set the minimal expectations for this one?

And is RED willing to listen and make adjustments based on their existing base of users' needs? (We've established that they are...)

Pontificating about whether someone should shoot single or double system does nothing to advance the conversation about whether RED's existing audio system is up to the standards of its other systems. In fact, those pontifications have been shutting down this discussion, implying (or stating out right...) that it somehow lacks professionalism to desire a decent single system. Let's open this up, not shut it down.

Why apply that sort of limited, backwards thinking to a forward-thinking tool? RED is in the business of breaking paradigms, not replicating the status quo--why should the standards for their audio system be any different?

What we are advocating for here is maximum flexibility for all users, period.

I want my second RED camera to be able to be used in any situation and environment.

I will use both single and double recording set-ups. I want the maximum flexibility of having both options, not a sloppy work-around for getting decent onboard sound that adds weight and cabling to my camera, in a situation where those things are *least* desirable.

Even adding a MixPre doesn't just add the MixPre itself, it adds the unit, the cabling, the cable adapters, and extra rods and handles and mounts for mounting the darn thing. One extra pound of gear quickly becomes five extra pounds of gear. You will feel every inch of those five pounds if you are taking this rig to altitude, as I plan to.

Plus, it adds additional set-up time when it may not be practical.

I shouldn't even have to re-state the obvious, but here's a few specific situations that I've encountered:

- shooting in monasteries

- shooting at 13,000 feet or higher

- shooting wildlife

- quick interview set-ups, where the opportunity is unanticipated and the subject is suddenly available

- shooting climbers

There are many situations where a light, fast set-up is optimal.

Some people shoot fast and light for budgetary reasons. They should be entitled to make that call for themselves. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with that choice. You say you don't do a good job of running sound and image simultaneously. Of course it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. Double system audio is an advantage, not a religion.

ericyoung

01-31-2008, 08:19 AM

Let's clarify something--no one disputes that it is preferable to run sound and image separately. This is not a point of disagreement. So stop trying to make it one...

There are many situations where a light, fast set-up is optimal.

Some people shoot fast and light for budgetary reasons. They should be entitled to make that call for themselves. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with that choice...

Of course it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. Double system audio is an advantage, not a religion.

Absolutely agree - wish audio pots had been included. :sad:

Finner

01-31-2008, 09:33 AM

Absolutely agree - wish audio pots had been included. :sad:

I really see it as a "To late now!" situation. A small handful of others and I were fighting hard for pots, full size XLR's and better audio solutions many months ago and very very few backed us up. Hell im a cine guy that will rarely not have a sound guy with me when shooting sound and I felt it was important. Now we have mini XLR's no pots and a multitude of other sound problems with the camera. Surprise Surprise, the writing was on the wall a long time ago that the audio of this camera would be sub-par when they anounced and showed the specs of the camera. Now the camera is built and shipping so there are no longer changes to be made to the cameras audio hardwear but instead work arounds to be found to try and make the camera fit for peoples uses.

I conceeded to myself about 2 months ago that the camera would unfortunately need an outside source of equipment to properly record sound. The war is over on this one and we see what we get now and I see it as a cine camera. So hire a sound guy with a mixer if you need to record good sound.

Hans von Sonntag

01-31-2008, 10:20 AM

ericyoung

01-31-2008, 11:00 AM

Interesting thread but Daren is spot on (as usual).

Hans

PS: Sorry not backing you in this regard but I never considered RED as an ENG compliant camera. The soundmen I know hate beeing tethered and wireless to the camera is not an option when safe recording is important (not to open this discussion again...).

Daren - who he?

Don't understand that second paragraph. Having the option to be a one person crew doesn't stop anyone recording separate sound, but why shouldn't I or others be able to choose to do it all ourselves in certain situations?

Why include sound at all, if we can't control it as effectively as the image?

planet e

01-31-2008, 11:20 AM

Finner may be right. I may be taking the $30K for #1248 that is sitting in the bank waiting for the proper e-mail blast and putting it towards something else. I really hate that idea. I want to see RED sprinkle more magic fairy dust across the camera and see what happens to the audio. I want to see signs that they are just as committed to audio improvements as they have been to image (gaining a little traction in this regard, so far...)

Two months is an eternity in RED time. We have seen them work miracles in days. Even then, it may not be perfect, but I would certainly settle for vastly improved....

Actually, I'd settle for continuous audio metering throughout the menu (seems firmware-fixable...), improvements in noise issues (more firmware), maybe better pre-amps and some sort of small, light audio pots add-on that is specifically designed to fit RED's modular design and doesn't add a bunch of weight and loose connections, maybe something with a direct mini-XLR to mini-XLR connector even, that is RED-specific. Something that hasn't been invented yet. Like Element Technica's break-out box for BNCs, but with pots, that can punch straight into the mini-XLRs, with a bomb-proof connection. Okay, those are hardware right there, but impossible? I hope not! Something like a MixPre but smaller, lighter, less weight, and ergonomically designed to fit nice n tight with the RED modular structure.

I'm just not convinced that this game is entirely over...c'mon RED magicians, prove me right!

1248 is a lovely, perfect fibonacci sequence. In my other life as a stock trader, I'd be holding on with both hands....

Joel Kaye

01-31-2008, 11:41 AM

some sort of small, light audio pots add-on that is specifically designed to fit RED's modular design and doesn't add a bunch of weight and loose connections

Face it, if they redesigned the right side of the camera and sold them for $1000 each everyone would buy it. The HDMI and USB ports are the keepers IMHO. Everything else is a do over.

It almost looks like they initially chose the outputs to be small to keep the camera small, but then the camera got much bigger in design but they didn't rethink the connectors at that point. I mean, the camera's pretty damn big now. There are a lot smaller cameras with normal BNC and XLR connectors out there.

The right side shoulda been 2 XLR's, 3 video connections, maybe a power tap and everything else on breakout cable via one connection. That would have been small and standard. The first big RED upgrade will have a right side REDO I bet.

Hans von Sonntag

01-31-2008, 11:45 AM

Why include sound at all, if we can't control it as effectively as the image?

That's a good point. I was wondering why... Seriously the soundabilities of the RED are poor at least. I wished it had bee better sorted out. But there is a lot of hardware involved which cannot be implemented anymore, that's why I recon Finner is spot on. Fortunately the RED one has the abilities for TC sync.
That will be sufficient for me.

Hans

number6

01-31-2008, 12:43 PM

See Jim?

This is what you get when you set the price of a product and then try building it to fit that price. And afterwards you open up the process and let everyone tell you what THEY want individually. No one really cares if you are able to bring the product in close to budget... they only care about what THEY want. Some have even said "Raise the price and put what THEY want on the camera" irrespective of what it does to those of US that will accept it for what it is as long as you deliver what you've promised (plus a whole lot more, in my estimation) for the price you set.

Be firm Jim. Don't cave to these Senators who want to tack on more expenditures to the previously negotiated budget! Be firm.

Or if you can't be firm, at least be FIRMWARE!!!:holloween:

Mark Allen

01-31-2008, 01:39 PM

Dual system sound. For those who want to see it go by the wayside, keep in mind that having a sound person who is as focused on sound as the cameraman is on visuals is extremely important.

Just a note that my post was about eliminating post synching and not eliminating the location sound mixer.

A definite side benefit is the ability to run and gun without a location sound mixer when necessary.

Scott Brown

01-31-2008, 02:10 PM

Just adding my thoughts on Red's audio situation....

I'm very concerned about reports the sound quality offered by the Red camera. I simply cannot understand why corners appear to have been cut in an area that should have been a given. I for one will happily pay more for decent high end on board audio and don't see what Red have to gain by scrimping in this area.

As has already been suggested this is one area where some form of collaboration with a company specializing in audio would have made complete sense and my big worry is that Red have no real scope to improve what they have now that the camera appears to be finished and shipping.

Perhaps someone from Red can comment on the cameras interior and let us know if they can at this stage replace the mic pre amps and add audio pots to the exterior of the camera.

We will be using our camera in some situations where we will NOT have the luxury of a dedicated sound recordist and this therefore very high quality on board sound is going to be vitally important for us.

Red you have achieved the impossible in terms of the picture quality, PLEASE don't compromise now with the audio!

Best wishes

Scott Brown

LEON

01-31-2008, 02:17 PM

Limiter, Hiss and DC issue might find a software solution,
for the fan noise i have heavy doubts,
so the RED ONE might be good for car races
and not intimate cinematography with sync sound,
what a pity to have 4 24 bit sound tracks and a noisy fan !

Stephen Pruitt

01-31-2008, 03:13 PM

Mark Allen and I are on the same page. . . I want the ability to AVOID having to SYNCH with a double-system. If RED or someone else can find a way to allow us to send in four tracks of digital audio (AES, USB, whatever), I think we'd all be pretty happy pups. Maybe someone will come up with a RED-hack that does exactly that. I definitely don't want to have to manually synch all that audio.

Stephen

Steve Sherrick

01-31-2008, 08:39 PM

This could be my personal bias as someone who has worked a tremendous amount in post production - but I absolutely feel that some day film students will look back at the days when sound was recorded to a separate device much as today's students look at a moviola - much the same as imagining a barber as a surgeon. Hard to imagine the logic.

I may have interpreted your point incorrectly, apologies if that's the case.

I of course am advocating that the camera should have solid sound recording. Doesn't have to be award-winning because let's face it, the price clearly goes up. I don't expect them to put a 744 inside the camera.

In the end, we're all asking for the same thing here (pretty much, although some may have higher expectations). The camera needs to at the very least be able to record audio quality that has been implemented on other high end cameras. The choice to go single or double system then becomes a choice you make based on the situation. You aren't forced to go one way or the other.

But before we all get really crazy about some of these audio issues, can we please conduct some scientific tests so that we can start to confirm or deny with actual factual data. Not everyone is having the same experiences with their cameras. Is fan noise truly a problem when settings are correct? Does this hiss exist in specific firmware? What is the actual measured dynamic range?

I hope the forum begins to move in the direction of more information and less speculation, a true information sharing space based on actual shooting experience. Not to say that isn't already happening in some capacity, but I think more time is needed in the field shooting and recording sound by people who have cameras and have gotten to know them well. Otherwise, misinformation starts floating about. And I'm going to be the first one to take my own advice. So I'm shutting up and want a camera to start playing with.

By the way, what I saw today confirmed all of my expectation about what this camera can deliver. It's truly brilliant guys. There may be a lot of issues being worked on but when you see it in all its glory, man, it's gorgeous. Sorry for the tease, but that's all you're getting out of me.

Steve

planet e

02-01-2008, 06:53 AM

But before we all get really crazy about some of these audio issues, can we please conduct some scientific tests so that we can start to confirm or deny with actual factual data. Not everyone is having the same experiences with their cameras. Is fan noise truly a problem when settings are correct? Does this hiss exist in specific firmware? What is the actual measured dynamic range?

Once these forum threads start to grow longer, they lose their grounding...the thread was started by a location sound tech who *was* reporting the results of his testing. I think Jeff climbed aboard because JFirestone's original audio test postings didn't seem to be garnering any response or attention from the RED team. Not that I want to speak for those guys, but that's what I observed, as an invested bystander....

Having visited 3 REDs in a few weeks, I was able to see a few things for myself about the audio, and I've listed those. It boils down to 2 basic issues-- poor in-menu metering structure and some untreated noise issues. All of which I believe can be re-worked, but it didn't seem that the RED team was actively responding to the audio testing and feedback that was being posted....

I'm with you, though, Steve, it's now been said, RED's response to the audio issues seems to have perked up, the rest is waiting to see what actual modifications result. And to encourage other testers to post findings, as you suggested....given all of the other mind-blowingly amazing things about the camera, the onboard audio doesn't have to be perfect, but it does need to be functional and useable--I don't think that's too much to ask for, nor do I think it is out of reach for the RED wizards....

Bryan Golder

02-02-2008, 01:07 PM

Re the option of digital audio input via USB, there is an additional complication in that you are going to have to distribute a video clock reference to both the camera and digital mixer device, or send video referenced word clock to the audio device. If the video camera and audio source are digital, they have to be locked to the same master clock.

I can't imagine anybody would want to reference the Red camera to the clock on a digital audio mixer via USB, if that was even possible, which I doubt it is.

I guess if the Red has a wordclock output that could be plugged into the digital mixer wordclock input, and the digital mixer has the capability to reference external wordclock, then the Red could be the clock master and that would be problem solved. Does the Red have a wordclock output?

Anyway, the point is, digital audio input adds a bit of clock/sync complexity to an ENG setup that I'm not so sure you would to deal with if you're not an audio guru.

Food for thought...

puntociego

03-03-2009, 08:59 AM

Does ane body know how to interpretate the 3 lines of the audio leds of the redone where is the 0 db?

Mike Burke

03-03-2009, 09:44 AM

dAVID aRNOLD

03-26-2009, 06:27 AM

Thanks for this guys.
I am doing my first location sound job on a Red next week and had heard these concerns from people locally. I will post my findings here.

Justin McAleece

03-27-2009, 02:44 AM

I have 4 different mini XLR to XLR converters and for some reason 3 of them are 10 dB louder than the other one I got from RED. I was having a helluva time getting repeatable levels before I figured that one out.

Dominic Jones

03-27-2009, 12:06 PM

One of your audio cables is the older version, with pre-upgraded audio board 10dB pad. Assuming you're working on a current audio board camera, you should get Red to swap it out for you.

You could also make up your own mini-XLR -> XLR cables, straight pass through, that will match the higher-level cables.

Cheers,
Dom.

Stuart English

04-14-2009, 07:00 AM

Andrew M.

04-14-2009, 10:20 AM

Jeff, did you have a chance to test/work with the new audio board?
Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Andrew

Peter Savage

04-26-2009, 03:45 AM

Does ane body know how to interpretate the 3 lines of the audio leds of the redone where is the 0 db?

Well? Does anyone?

There have been several posts about audio levels not being what was expected. Its now about a month later and I still cannot find any answers. My test of audio produced the same kind of results as many other posts. We were using two different SQN mixers for channel one and a direct Sennheiser 416 mic for the second channel. We spent an unbelievably long time trying match the level from the mixer(s) with what I assume the 3 lines of Red's audio meters are meant to mean (I agree with several other posts - the documentation is fairly pointless - as do a couple of sound recordists who were involved with the tests)

The tone from both mixers at line level resulted the Red's meter showing completely red (ironic but not desirable :) )

When we tried to record a simple interview, we could not get a cleanly monitored signal back from the Red and actually have anything registering on the mixers meter, although the Red's meter was peaking between the outer lines (I am assuming that's what's supposed to happen).

Eventually we tried sending mic level from the mixer. Since we had some control over the input level we could get a reading more or less across the mixer's scale and apparently a similar range on the Red meter.

The mic seemed to be ok peaking somewhere between the outer two lines (again I am assuming that's what's supposed to happen) and the Red meter went from green to yellow with the changes in level.

At last! THEN I took the resulting recordings into FCP. Again as with other posts I discovered another problem. The level was about 8 - 10db low on the LINE LEVEL and the MIXERS MIC LEVEL recordings. The SAME was true for the DIRECT MIC recordings on channel 2.

We were using build 17. The line input level was set to 0db. The mic input level was set to about 36db (close to the default as it happens).

All the equipment being used is broadcast standard. This should not be so complicated but so far I cannot find anything from Red to even point us in a useful direction.

Right now I am lost. Surely as has been requested several times in various threads SOMEONE from RED can provide useful answers or at least tell us you don't know what's happening, whatever but SILENCE is not good.

Just so this doesn't seem like one long gripe - again like many other posts (and people at Red know this from me) the camera is fantastic, the company approach is remarkable, the response to customers is brilliant - so please keep up all this good approach and help us all solve the audio issue so that recording directly to the camera is not hit and miss but actually what it should be and what I think RED wants it to be.

Peter Savage

04-26-2009, 04:17 AM

If you have not done so already, check out the new beta Build 18 v3.6.4.

Some questions about Reference Level marks and the mysterious +10dB gain offset are addressed in this firmware release.

I would also recommend downloading the Build 17 v3.4.6 Operations Guide.

stuart,

I am reluctant to use build 18 until it becomes an official firmware release.

What questions are actually addressed and how please?

I assume you mean Build 17 v 3.4.1 Operations guide (not 6 - as I cannot find a 3.4.6) which is the version of the Ops guide I am using. It is still fairly light on the audio aspects and there is no direct mention in this nor Build 18 Op guide (that I can see) of the reference marks on the audio meters.

Surely someone at Red could provide some definitive answers the the questions raised in this and other threads about the audio issues... it's obviously affecting many people.

I am not aiming this at you particularly (sorry if it seems that way) but some answers would be helpful from someone at Red.

Stuart English

04-26-2009, 07:59 AM

I assume you mean Build 17 v 3.4.1 Operations guide (not 6 - as I cannot find a 3.4.6) which is the version of the Ops guide I am using.

Actually I mean Build 18 v3.4.6 Operations Guide. My typo - apologies for that.

Peter Savage

04-26-2009, 08:07 AM

aha ok well that's clear, thanks.

Any news on the audio issues: just what the reference marks are actually referencing and any idea why the audio level which appears to be peaking in the right places on the Red meters is so low in FCP by any chance?

I should also add that when playing back in the camera the audio sounded ok and of a reasonable level (as far as it's possible to tell) but was very low in FCP.

Stuart English

04-26-2009, 08:16 AM

Any news on the audio issues: just what the reference marks are actually referencing and any idea why the audio level which appears to be peaking in the right places on the Red meters is so low in FCP by any chance?

I should also add that when playing back in the camera the audio sounded ok and of a reasonable level (as far as it's possible to tell) but was very low in FCP.

The Build 18 Operations Guide explains the audio levels question. As for how FCP represents audio levels - is it using VU or PPM for example - I can't tell you that, all I do know is that 0dBu reference tone into to a RED ONE with Rev B audio hardware delivers 0dBu out again on the 5 pin mini-XLR on playback.

David Didato

04-26-2009, 08:43 AM

Stuart, the b18 ops guide doesn't explain what the 3 lines on the Peak Level Meter represent. If there were one line it would be clear that its 0dB, but since I got my rev B upgraded camera back I now have multiple lines.

Is it from right to left, 0dB, -6, -12?
Is the PLM different for Line input, as displayed in the manual?

Peter Savage

04-26-2009, 08:51 AM

David beat me to it... but here's the rest of my post anyway....
stuart, thanks for the quick reply but I'm sorry and I may be being both blind and stupid. I have the build 18 Ops guide in front of me I can find no reference to what the three lines on the audio meters are actually referencing. Please specify which page of the manual mentions these three marks and explains what they are referencing. I am not the only one this was asked about earlier in this thread (3rd of March). I am also not the only person having audio level problems. There are a few threads reporting similar/the same issues.

It seems simple enough. Reference tone from a mixer (a fixed level) completely overloaded the input at line level on my camera. The 416 I plugged directly into ch 2 (and of course set to mic level) appeared to respond relatively appropriately on the meters and on playback in the camera but was about -8db low in FCP. This does not make sense to me. If it is clear where 'unity' is in terms of the level and the marks perhaps the problem would not be there. I'm not a sound expert so I know I might be doing something silly but I have been dealing with this stuff for quite a long time and the people I work with who are sound recordists also can't work out what's not working correctly - they also read build 18 Ops guide to try to figure this out without success.

FYI I have Rev B audio hardware and I am using the correct cables and connectors.

FCP captures digital audio as "an exact copy" (that's what their manual states and what I would expect - without changing any levels)
so the problem is that what appears to be within Red's three reference marks is captured by FCP at a very low level.

hmm