Other Batteries Charged on Red Charger/Lithium Ion Issue

[HD Hildebrand]

Has anyone tried to Charge an IDX battery on the Red Charger (or Red Batteries on IDX Charger)? The reason I ask is that there may be a solution to the Lithium Ion conundrum(???). According to several people I've talked to, including this post on the Batteries4Broadcast site, you can carry a maximum of 2 batteries of the 150wh batteries (for example) and a larger number of "under 8 gram" Lithium Ion batteries, but all need to be carry on.

As per Batteries4Broadcast site:

Are there travel restrictions for Lithium Ion batteries?

Yes. Passengers are allowed an unlimited number of spare batteries whose equivalent lithium content per battery is less than 8 gr. (Our 90Wh batteries). Each passenger can also carry no more than two lithium-ion batteries that contain more than 8 gr. of equivalent lithium content per battery, this includes our 120Wh and our 150Wh models. For more information, please contact your carrier for more information on changes in policy.

Now - I just talked to Air Canada and they put me on hold for a very long time trying to research this (my conclusion - this obviously isn't a high priority on the front lines). Eventually they they came back with this - 150wh batteries are okay if attached to the camera and spares need to be under 8 grams, but she also told me there was no limit on the number of spare batteries, as long as the spares are under 8 grams. Perhaps if 2x150 batteries are attached to the camera via "The Swap-Pack" from Action Products, it would be okay seeing they are not spares (am I pushing the envelope now?).

So, if I can put 90wh IDX batteries on the Red charger (or vise-versa) there might be something to work with.

Will Red come out with a lower watt hour battery?

Thoughts, feedback and fanatical flaming are most appreciated. Well, perhaps not the flaming - I just want answers and solutions.

Peace,
Dale

[HD Hildebrand]

Has anybody tried charging IDX batteries on a Red Charger, or Red Batteries on a IDX charger?

Sorry to ask again, but need to finalize my order and if there is a way to add 90wh batteries to my package, this would make me feel more secure knowing I can fly with under 8 gram batteries.

Appreciate any info.

[gdv]

Sorry to catch a lift on this thread.
Does anybody knows if powering the Red with a different battery than what Red is offering is OK. I am checking the Dynacore batteries which are aslo Sony V mount 14.8V 160Wh.
I saw a Red working with this kind of batteries.
If you are interested you can find info at:
http://www.dynacore-china.com

[jbeale]

Not to be alarmist, but I would check out the threads about lithium-ion batteries and "rapid thermal events" or whatever the phrase is. For most widgets you buy, the worst thing that happens is it doesn't work. For big lithium batteries from a lesser-known manufacturer, the worst thing that can happen, is a lot worse.

[Wes Printz]

I would not expect your RED to last long with a 90Wh battery at all. The in rush current when turning the camera on could exceed 170Wh, and recording would be around 90Wh alone.

As to charging different manufacturer batteries on different chargers, depends on the system. If it's just a "Smart Charger" that calculates the requirements only by Current sensing, you MAY be OK. If the charger such as intelligent chargers as the IDX VL-4SI, which actually communicate with the battery for optimum performance, (certain IDX not ALL!!) I would not risk it. It may charge, but not to it's full capacity, maybe 80-90%.

There is a reason battery manufacturers build both batteries and chargers which compliment each other. If it's just plain Ole Ni-cad, or Gel-cells, "Dumb" li-Ion or NiMH, smart chargers should work. If you have several thousand dollars invested in a battery system, it's best not to mix and match.

Batteries are one of the most important items in your package, yet, a lot of people try to cut costs there, since they are so expensive.

If one is worried about the Lithium content, choose another battery chemistry. You will gain the confidence knowing you can travel with out too much fear of having batteries pulled from your kit, but will loose the proprietary communication the RED Bricks have with the camera.

See what others are running, contact some of the owner operators who have a rental inventory as well. In the end, the choice is yours.

[HD Hildebrand]

I hear what you're saying Pana-Tech. IDX have a fairly good reputation. My main concern is a balance of light weight batteries and air security (and certainly don't mind proprietary battery communication with Red). But I guess that is why I am posting here - to see what others are running. I would think 90wh still would give an hour of run time??? Oh this battery thing... "the horror..."

[paul dudeck]

Planetearth,

Another thing you need to consider is how long, in lifetime, do you want your batteries to last you? Using a battery that is 90wh or less will definitely shorten the life of the batteries. So, how often do you want to buy new batteries? Once a year? Once every two years? While lightweight is an issue, so is spending money every one or two years to replace your batteries....

[Jaron Berman]

Pana-tech makes a very good point about the "smart" circuitry within li-ion batteries, thought the numbers are a bit off. Li-ion batteries take very complex charging schedules due to the fragile nature of the cells. Lithium batts are especially susceptible to excess heat, and therefore the batteries themselves must contain control circuitry within their housings to prevent them from overheating, or overdrawing current-wise (and also the tightly monitor the charge). This internal circuitry must match the circuitry within the charger, as every battery cell manufacturer uses a slightly different chip to control the cells themselves. Putting an IDX battery on a RED charger will likely not work at all, as the control circuits are incompatible. However, it MAY work. The reason it may work is that the RED charger may be built with a similar enough circuit to line up with the IDX bricks. More commonly, off-brand batteries are compatible with one another because they are almost all using the same chinese cells and chips. The only real way to answer that question is to just try it! Although I know personally, I'd rather try it with a cheaper cell than an IDX.

If the 90wh restriction is a concern, look into the IDX/steadicam powercubes - they are still 90wh batteries but they have cells of drastically different geometry than ALL other li-ion batteries, and can take the deep current draw of cameras like the RED or Genesis. Also, Varizoom used to import stackable li-ion batteries that could break apart into 2-80wh "halves". They are larger and uglier than any competing batteries, but they have that unique feature, making them suitable for RED use.

As for the numbers game - WH is a measure of time x work - a 90WH battery could run a 45-watt load for 2 hours (for example). WH is NOT a measure of current, which is the big concern with the new 12v cameras. A simple estimate is this - camera watts / battery voltage = current draw of camera. Most users who have measured report that the RED draws 55 watts in base configuration in steady-state. Most single 90wh batteries have current limiters that cut-out at less than 5 amps (continuous), meaning that you SHOULD be able to run something like a Dionic 90 down to empty before ever triggering its protection circuits... but that's without any accessories powered off the same battery.

As for the life of the battery - Lithiums are the shortest lifespan of any currently available cell. If you produce them under the strictest controls, best case scenario, they will lose significant charging potential after 200 cycles. Period. Cheaper cells and you're looking in the low 100's. It does not matter if they're 90wh bricks or 160 wh bricks, they will all die after approximately the same number of cycles (unless you shorten their lives by overheating, overdrawing or dropping them). But the point is made that yes, the larger the capacity of the cell, the fewer cycles you will use.

According to early user reports, I would guess that the RED batteries are of the latter camp - expect a noticeable drop in capacity after about 100 cycles. Not necessarily a bad thing, considering how cheap they are, but something to keep in mind. Batteries DO NOT LAST FOREVER. Even battery salesmen will recommend buying the cheapest lithiums you can, because they all die, and the difference between the best and cheapest cells is not very much.

And don't forget recelling - you can get most batteries recelled fairly inexpensively when they die. Batteries are depreciated expendables.

[albert rudnicki]

Dynacore DS-130AI Self Charging Battery 130WH
The fact that you can charge them without the charger is very appealing to me.
It looks like a good addition to the Red's power pack.

[Manuel Wenger]

IDX Endura Elite as well as Endura are running fine on the RED, they also charge on the Red Charger. We use them on 5 cameras all the week during our Red Testing Week here in Munich organized by ludmux.

[Scot Olson]

I know this doesn't answer the question about charging RED batteries, but IDX has this bulletin (http://www.idxtek.com/IDX%20compatibility%20with%20sony%20chargers.pdf) that discuses charging IDX Batteries with Sony chargers and Sony batteries with IDX chargers.

I have been charging 8 IDX batteries on Sony BC-L100 chargers for the last 3 to 4 years and have had zero problems.

The latest Sony and IDX batteries are also compatible in how they report status to the camera. Using an IDX or Sony battery with a Sony XDcam you see the battery status in 10% increments from MAX to 90% ... 20% then LOW with a warning.

[HD Hildebrand]

Great info. Anyone try a Red battery on another charger like an IDX or Swit?

[HD Hildebrand]

Pana-tech makes a very good point about the "smart" circuitry within li-ionAlso, Varizoom used to import stackable li-ion batteries that could break apart into 2-80wh "halves". They are larger and uglier than any competing batteries, but they have that unique feature, making them suitable for RED use.

Reread the info you provided Jaron and the Varizoom battery is very interesting for high capacity, lithium Ion and safe air transport:

http://www.varizoom.com/products/batteries/S8170S.html

I gave them a call and they're going to put together some pricing. Thanks for this tip.

[Wes Printz]

FYI IDX has the ELITE with 142 Wh: http://www.idxtek.com/endura.htm

Capacity: 142Wh/9.6Ah
Mean voltage: 14.8V
Maximum voltage: 16.8V
Typical camera run-time: 5.4 hours (@ 26W)

[HD Hildebrand]

Thanks Pana-Tech. I'll check them out.

Hey, did you get my email - would like to inquire about cables?

[paul dudeck]

Two Dionic 90 batteries with a QR-Hot Swap-GM is not an option for you? You can get 180wh of power from it and be able to switch batteries as you need to without any interruption of power....

[Martin Ludwig]

Thanks Pana-Tech. I'll check them out.

Hey, did you get my email - would like to inquire about cables?

the IDX Elite batteries are the best batteries on the market right now. We have a lot of experiences with batteries from the last years in our rental. We have about 150 v mount batteries in stock. the elites are very strong, have a good weight and after one year we have them enough power. we could compare it to AB dionic - and they are really better.

[dino g]

I strongly suggest sticking to the red batteries. this system as it is configured is still a rather new and often picky system. if this stuff was easy everyone would be making a 4k camera, and they are not.

IMHO adding another level of potential failure is not worth the hassle, first because in this case it can be actually dangerous and second because it is too mission critical to trust something that is not OEM. if you cant afford red batteries, you should not be shooting with the red camera, it is one of the least expensive components and it was purposefully built.

regarding traveling, in my experience, having flown to:

Peru and back
Dubai via frankfurt and back
reno and back (4 times)
orlando and back (via dallas, & somewhere else i can't even remember)
Brisbane Australia and back
Vegas and back (3 times)

I have not had one question about the batteries, either in carry-on or in checked baggage. so not sure what the problem is and the more people to call and ask is the more people that get up and arms about it...

get to the airport early, if they deny you as a carry-on, go check it, bring a spare duffle bag, it is always good to have anyway.

[HD Hildebrand]

I have not had one question about the batteries, either in carry-on or in checked baggage. so not sure what the problem is and the more people to call and ask is the more people that get up and arms about it...

I hear you Kosomos and I think you're right with that. Guess I'm a little sensitive with this subject after a battery grounded out on some film cans in Kathmandu, almost exploded, and the house cleaner mistook it for a bomb - ooooh big mess.

Also, I really don't think it is a cost issue for any one at this point it's more like the 19mm vs 15mm, only with batteries there are so many more choices and once you dive in you want to stick with the journey.

To surmise: I've had great feedback on all the batteries. Though I did find out one rental house that has a number of Red's coming - they tested a bunch of batteries and chargers and it looks like they are sticking with the Red batteries. As for chargers, some are opting not to go with sequential, but one would also needs to consider size, weight and required charge time for that choice.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback - it has been educational and very helpful with my choices.

[vincelucero]

Though I did find out one rental house that has a number of Red's coming - they tested a bunch of batteries and chargers and it looks like they are sticking with the Red batteries.

This is a very important point. Worth being said twice. Not all v mount batteries will work properly with the Red One. I've seen it.

[SF Geek]

So, did anyone answer the question about charging the Red batteries with another charger like the IDX Endura 4bank?

[SF Geek]

Shameless bump back to the top. Making orders and need the info.

[vincelucero]

Jarred said they use the IDX 2 bank.

[SF Geek]

Yeah, Red has their own 2 bank. I need the simultaneous 4 bank Endura. You haven't tried that have you?

[Mitch Deoudes]

get to the airport early, if they deny you as a carry-on, go check it, bring a spare duffle bag, it is always good to have anyway.

Problem is, you aren't allowed to check them, if I'm reading correctly.

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

Looks like it's Fedex, or traveling with an assistant or two. (Or talking other passengers into helping you out. You could tell them it's cocaine, or something.)