NLE choices

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Here are some NLE and compositing software choice for the RED one :

1) With 2 and 4 K : The best is to use NLE that can handle uncompressed 4:4:4 RGB , YUV or both without external codecs. The autodesk inferno , smoke and flame (on linux and irix) are the best for their real time power but the prices are high . IFX Piranha (linux) is cheaper and very effecient . Avid DS nitris is the top level solution for windows but is tightly linked with it's hardware (no way to use a footage without redigitizing it using it's specific hardware) . Autodesk lustre is another windows solution for color correction and grading but has few tools for editing . All these solutions cost from 50 to 400 K . Cineform should come with a new raw codec wich can be used for resolutions exceeding the 2K (patent pending) . Adobe premiere pro or Sony vegas with cineform codec are among the low cost editing solutions for 2K , however care must be taken in the editing steps to avoid detail loss after a certain number of generation effects (about 15) . Other solution may exists but these are the most known . Among all the expensive solutions the linux piranha is the most hardware independant .

2) With HD : The list is big but Canopus edius with it's HQ codec (a variable interactive codec) is one of the fastest and affordable . The software can import easily many footage formats and flavours . While Avid solutions are more expensive and hardware dependant . The avid codecs are not interactive and variable .

3) compositing : After effects with the dynamic link (production studio only) allow many compositing effects from the premiere pro timeline without rendering , wich is the affordable solution for both editing and compositing with cineform codec . Otherwise the expensive 2K/4K can do the job with uncompressed 4:4:4:4 data . If the red codec can be used with the midrange compositing softwares -combustion , shake , digital fusion , nuke, and others- that will be a real revolution .

Regards .

[Gavin Greenwalt]

... or you can edit in any NLE. Avid, FCP, Premiere, Windows Movie Maker etc.. and conform in any resolution independent render engine later...such as Fusion, Combustion, Shake, Nuke, AE etc..

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi ,

Here are some NLE and compositing software choice for the RED one :

1) With 2 and 4 K : The best is to use NLE that can handle uncompressed 4:4:4 RGB , YUV or both without external codecs. The autodesk inferno , smoke and flame (on linux and irix) are the best for their real time power but the prices are high . IFX Piranha (linux) is cheaper and very effecient . Avid DS nitris is the top level solution for windows but is tightly linked with it's hardware (no way to use a footage without redigitizing it using it's specific hardware) . Autodesk lustre is another windows solution for color correction and grading but has few tools for editing . All these solutions cost from 50 to 400 K . Cineform should come with a new raw codec wich can be used for resolutions exceeding the 2K (patent pending) . Adobe premiere pro or Sony vegas with cineform codec are among the low cost editing solutions for 2K , however care must be taken in the editing steps to avoid detail loss after a certain number of generation effects (about 15) . Other solution may exists but these are the most known . Among all the expensive solutions the linux piranha is the most hardware independant .

2) With HD : The list is big but Canopus edius with it's HQ codec (a variable interactive codec) is one of the fastest and affordable . The software can import easily many footage formats and flavours . While Avid solutions are more expensive and hardware dependant . The avid codecs are not interactive and variable .

3) compositing : After effects with the dynamic link (production studio only) allow many compositing effects from the premiere pro timeline without rendering , wich is the affordable solution for both editing and compositing with cineform codec . Otherwise the expensive 2K/4K can do the job with uncompressed 4:4:4:4 data . If the red codec can be used with the midrange compositing softwares -combustion , shake , digital fusion , nuke, and others- that will be a real revolution .

Regards .


Sorry about a joke but it looks like a talk of PC guy in the new Apple adds>>LINK (http://www.apple.com/getamac/). And of course another solution for all yours NLE confusions is Final Cut Studio 6. It is coming up and will be presented together with the RED 4k>2K>HD workflow at the RED BOOT+APPLE BOOT at NAB 2007.

[starman]

There is another less known nle that can handle 4k plus a lot of other goodies i use it for dv but its capable of hd 4k

its called extreme and it costs less than $2k

http://www.cinegy.com/CMS/index.php?products_extreme

starman

[Bruce Allen]

Wlaroussi, are you talking about onlining / finishing or creative editing? What is your project?

Realistically, most creative editing is done in an Avid or sometimes Final Cut Pro. Maybe you could swing it with Premiere too. But if you're going to be doing something big (eg with multiple editors working on your project at the same time, etc,) Avid should be your #1 choice. Final Cut Pro is viable for smaller projects or if you have patient and tech-savvy assistants. But then you might have to pay them more ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

Addendum: you mention that Avid DS cannot import media unless it is digitized. This is incorrect. I have supervised about 4-5 onlines on DS where we import graphics as stacks of frames. Avid would treat Red that way if you wanted - eg tell RedCine output a stack of frames. If you wanted to do an uncompressed HD online, that is one way to go. Just check with the online house that you output in the format that they are most comfortable importing ;)

There are lots of great alternatives of course - Quantel and Discreet Fire... or Final Cut Pro plus After Effects or Shake or Fusion or Combustion could do it in a pinch if you are patient and have time to burn (but no money). Similarly Premiere could work, and maybe even Vegas (with similar dollops of patience).

But when you're talking about creative editing, use the editing package that helps you work and collaborate best creatively. The important thing is how well the trim tool works, not whether it can do 4k.

Bruce

[Geoff Bailey]

Sorry, but the post above (not Bruce's, but the post that started the thread) is more confusing than helpful. The appopriate workflow depends on the project, project size and release format. Software is often the least important part of the equation.

For instance, for docs, the sheer volume of footage becomes a huge factor. Editing at even uncompressed HD rez is lunacy. Let's say 8-bit 720p and you're talking 320GB per hour. Storage cost, studio infrastructure and monitoring all become exponentially more expensive as you move from SD to HD to 2K (4k finishing is currently, I believe, not a reality).

Ironically, the workflow for 4k digital capture destined for HD or filmout, will probably (for some time) look very similar to film.

Capture (4k)
Transfer (via RedCine) to offline format
Offline Edit (SD or compressed HD)
Perform any effects work (2k)
Conform (2k)
Final Color Correct (HD or 2k)
Deliver (HD or filmout)

[Petr Dvorak]

or Quantel Pablo :biggrin:

[Lucas Wilson]

Addendum: you mention that Avid DS cannot import media unless it is digitized. This is incorrect. I have supervised about 4-5 onlines on DS where we import graphics as stacks of frames. ...

Hi Bruce...

Even though I didn't write the original post, I'll offer... perhaps "digitize" is the wrong word. How about "import?"

DS can "link" to files without importing them, but that workflow is painfully slow, especially with high resolutions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Bruce Allen]

Hi Bruce...

Even though I didn't write the original post, I'll offer... perhaps "digitize" is the wrong word. How about "import?"

DS can "link" to files without importing them, but that workflow is painfully slow, especially with high resolutions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

I totally agree! The original post just made it sound that you had to go in through HD-SDI or something...

I agree about the painful slowness of the import, too. Having done a ton of effects, titles, etc at full HD, 16 bit or so, I would always experiment... SGIs seemed to load quickly on the Fire systems, while the people whom I was working with on the DS seemed to want uncompressed TGAs... 8 bit only of course.

I just figured that slowness was partly because they didn't know what the hell they were doing. I've seen several operators of expensive onlining machines screw up when importing files and instead of just clicking on the first image in a sequence, they would select all 400 images in the folder and clicking "import sequences" which would have resulted in the Avid trying to import the same sequence 400 times...

Anyway, our online people never charged us for import times, I assumed that was always because they kinda knew they didn't know what they were doing.

What do you guys like best there over at Assimilate? DPX / Cineon?

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

[Lucas Wilson]

What do you guys like best there over at Assimilate? DPX / Cineon?

Oh, we're pretty fond of any well-defined and fast file format. DPX, CIN, TIFF (properly formatted,) that sort of thing... :)

Lucas

[Bruce Allen]

Gotcha, sounds good... As for TIFF... LZW? PC or Mac byte order?

Just getting ready so that when someone tells me we're finishing on Scratch and they want TIFFs I can say, "aah cool" instead of "oh damn, what flavor of TIFF is their favorite"...

Took a look at the Assimilate site - seems good. When are you guys going to get GenArts to port Sapphire plugins to your system? I know they're stupid, but trailer editors are addicted to them... I imagine that you guys might get more trailer finishing houses on board once you are able to replicate those much-overused "Sapphire Glow" flash cuts in an automated way... or can you do that already? Sorry, I am hijacking the thread... I guess this is still about NLEs and going from NLE to finishing system, though...

Bruce

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Sorry guys , i left this thread (and forgot it also) when only 2 posts replies were there for a while .

Here's a new modified list :

1 - SGI Irix (big budget) : Smoke 6 , 7 , 2007 for 2K and 4 K . 12 bits and 64 bits internal processing (the fastest) . A lot better than Avid DS . Flame and flint are for compositing (flint is just 8 bits) . Jaleo is used for compositing . Fire and Inferno are for high 4K Fx processing . Piranha is another competitor of smoke mostly used in the U.K and Germany and cost less than autodesk Smoke .The new version of piranha cinema 5 is supposed to process 4k footages. All these gears do uncompressed 4K real time (except for flint) , but prices are high (a good solution for rental) . For NLE tasks smoke and Piranha are real NLE softwares .

2 - Linux : Alll the softs above works now for linux , except Jaleo . Linux and Windows are not the bests OS for fast video editing . Autodesk had to change it's internal discreet kernel to run these monters on linux .

3 - Windows : *)Avid (DS , symphony and media composer) is the most popular but like i said it's always linked to it's hardware (nitris , DNA , Mojo , Meridien ...) . If you do the job in a studio with a qualified technicien who will take care of any problem . But if you want to assemble a station at home get a bunch of documentations . *) Thomson grassvalley edius , is one of the bests with no hassles , it's very fast and it's HQ codec is better than avid DNxHD , but i guess it's limited to HD 8 bits for the retail version (must see for it's turnkeys) . *) Premiere Pro with cineform prospect 2K is a cheap and good solution for 2K only , if you add videof finesse , you have a 32 bits grading package 10 bits cineon NLE for less than 10 K (it's probably the best 2K bargain you can get on windows) . Must be other solutions out there like nucoda master , lustre but i left those beside .

4 - Mac : FCP . Frankely i don't know much things abaout macs . But the 4 processors futur G mac (correct me if i'm wrong) will have to drop a big bandwith to handle 4K data streams . Intel and AMD have now quad core processors per processor this means 8 processors by dual processor station .
That's what push SGI to the limit of it's end .

Now for SD , HD and for some 2K projects , playing around with nuke , digital fusion , FCP , media composer .... will be OK (less money and few more time). But for real 4K projects there's only 2 solutions .

The first one : To do it on any 4K capable software as far as we get the results of the redcode behavior (how small are the transcoded files from redcode to any other codec) and how it's will be intgrated in any NLE and compositing softs . Remember this is the first solution of capturing compressed 4K data at 70 Mb/sec . In my opinion i'll be happy to do NLE , compositing and grading using scratch and digital fusion if i can or may be premiere and video finesse .

The second one : Go back to dinausore systems listed above at the begining to finish the job and starting it on any affordable NLE .

Regards .

[Bruce Allen]

I agree, also prefer Fire to Avid DS. But if you find the right facility you can finish an indie trailer on it cheaply (HD res). So not just for 4k.

I don't think Smoke does uncompressed 4k in real time.

You should also include Avid Media Composer Adrenaline - yes, its HD is compressed lightly (wavelet DNxHD) but again, it is fine for indie trailers and dare I say it, character-based indie features.

Also, you left out Quantel.

Finallym I think you left out the 3rd option for "real 4K projects"
#3: wait 2-3 years until desktop systems REALLY get fast enough. Whatever hype about "4K realtime effects" or whatever you will be flung by Apple at NAB, do not buy it at face value if it's just a 8-core Mac without serious outboard hardware / GPU power and software to take advantage of that power. Take a look at the Intel processor roadmap for the next few years, look at the way GPUs are going and ask yourself if you won't be able to buy twice as good a system for half the price in two years' time. Until then, I advocate 2K or HD finishing if you REALLY want to do it at home on today's systems (see my "4K finishing folly" post), which is, again good enough for most big studios nowadays.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Hrvoje Simic]

Finallym I think you left out the 3rd option for "real 4K projects"
#3: wait 2-3 years until desktop systems REALLY get fast enough. Whatever hype about "4K realtime effects" or whatever you will be flung by Apple at NAB, do not buy it at face value if it's just a 8-core Mac without serious outboard hardware / GPU power and software to take advantage of that power. Take a look at the Intel processor roadmap for the next few years, look at the way GPUs are going and ask yourself if you won't be able to buy twice as good a system for half the price in two years' time. Until then, I advocate 2K or HD finishing if you REALLY want to do it at home on today's systems (see my "4K finishing folly" post), which is, again good enough for most big studios nowadays.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com


I think that's a realistic approach.
The fact that RED went so far in creating an 4k capturing device doesn't mean that other software/hardware companies are fully prepared.
The downside of RED's being ahead of time means that we have to wait for other manufacturers to evolve to the same level (performance AND cost in mind).
The positive thing is that if you use only 2K you"ll have a p-r-e-t-t-y good results and the platforms are allready here. With 8 cores this shouldn't be a problem.

Oh well, I'll just have to be satisfied with mere crisp 2k at a 6-7 MB/s for now...

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,


Originally Posted by Bruce Allen : its HD is compressed lightly (wavelet DNxHD)

As far as i know the DNxHD is not a wavelet codec nor is the FCP one . But cineform , canopus HQ and of course redcode are real interactive wavelets . This does not mean in any case that DNxHD is worst than the 2 others .


Originally Posted by Bruce Allen :I don't think Smoke does uncompressed 4k in real time.

Yes it does with a stone mount , 4GB fiber channel on SGI Irix Tezro . For Linux many configurations exists so you have to check for the IBM and HP suites .


Originally Posted by Bruce Allen :Also, you left out Quantel.

Is one of the top stations for color special effects and finishing for fiilm . Thats all i know about it but like lustre both can do NLE tasks however are not suitable for NLE , unless you want to do the job from A to Z on the same station .


Originally Posted by Bruce Allen :Finallym I think you left out the 3rd option for "real 4K projects"

I think that everybody is waiting but since then , users are working on what's available . The quad core processors just demonstrates that Wintel/Mac/Linuw can deal with SGI stations having more than 64 processors . So fiber channel networks , quad core processors and other stuff was the competitive response . Beside SGI no one can make a motherboard harboring 4 processors for video . The data rate is so huge to be ingested by the actual north/south bridge on motherboards . The last element to make the things eazier is the compression codec . Here where the battle is hot . If i have to search for something new , it would be probably a software codec , not a new hardware configuration .

Regards

[Bruce Allen]

Wlaroussi, Quantel makes online editing systems too. I have taken edits from Final Cut Pro to Quantel (with some help from Automatic Duck). It didn't seem much different to a Fire or Avid DS. It supposedly has res-and-framerate independent timelines. I didn't really use those features, though. Pretty sweet, if you have the cash for it.

Otherwise, cool! I didn't know Smoke could do 4K. I only knew about Smoke HD and Smoke 2K. Can it actually output to a 4K display device?

I agree about the data-rate advantage of SGI. But with the rate of bandwidth improvements made to PCs, new PCI express standards, etc coming out, it's only a (very short) matter of time, right?

Bruce

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes it does with a stone mount , 4GB fiber channel on SGI Irix Tezro . For Linux many configurations exists so you have to check for the IBM and HP suites .

Laroussi - I don't mean to be combative, but I have no idea where you're getting your facts. This is just crazy talk.

Smoke is a great system, and there is a reason there are a lot of them out there.

But Smoke does not support uncompressed realtime 4K. Heck, you can even go the Autodesk website and it will tell you.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7118116

If there was even a glimmer of Smoke being able to do realtime 4K, Autodesk would say so in their configurations.

Smoke can't even support that resolution in their timelines. Max. resolution is 4000x3000. 4K Full Aperture is 4096x3112.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7245633

Please check your statements before you present them as fact.

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Lucas Wilson]

Gotcha, sounds good... As for TIFF... LZW? PC or Mac byte order?

Just getting ready so that when someone tells me we're finishing on Scratch and they want TIFFs I can say, "aah cool" instead of "oh damn, what flavor of TIFF is their favorite"...

Took a look at the Assimilate site - seems good. When are you guys going to get GenArts to port Sapphire plugins to your system? I know they're stupid, but trailer editors are addicted to them... I imagine that you guys might get more trailer finishing houses on board once you are able to replicate those much-overused "Sapphire Glow" flash cuts in an automated way... or can you do that already? Sorry, I am hijacking the thread... I guess this is still about NLEs and going from NLE to finishing system, though...

Bruce

Hi Bruce... e-mail me offlist at lucas@assimilateinc.com. tx.. :)

[wlaroussi]

Originally Posted by Luki : But Smoke does not support uncompressed realtime 4K

Here is what's written on page 57 on "the smoke70_user_guide.pdf" :
Although Smoke supports mixed resolutions in each project , very large resolutions (such as 4K 12 bits images) can only be manipulated on systems configured with at least 3.5 GB Ram .

Here is what's written on page 2 on "the smoke_overview_brochure.pdf" :
On the subtitle : finish complex online projects "easily handle complex projects with the resolution-independent smoke editing and finishing system for 2K/4K digital intermediate ,....."

Now as i told before if i remeber there are 3 smoke versions : SGI-irix ; IBM-linux and HP- linux . I don't know their specific performances . The informations you got from autodek are for the Irix/HP station on their web site. And let me tell you that autodesk have prices ranging from 50 to 100 k$ and more , so get in contact with an autodesk dealer you may get more informations .


Originally Posted by Luki : Please check your statements before you present them as fact

I'm not having any statement but only informations . I'm not presenting any fact but only informations .

Regards