Leopard & Apple SAN: no joy

[Leo Ticheli]

It's bad enough that Apple's new 8-core machines, which are only available with Leopard, cripple Shake, but what's much worse is that you can't use the new machines at all if you are running an Apple SAN!

We, like many much larger operations, run all our audio and edit suites to a common Apple SAN. We're in the middle of a facility expansion and we CANNOT add more rooms with current Macs!

Apple says that connecting a single Leopard suite will break the SAN and endanger all our audio and video resources. Yikes!

Apple will not sell the new machines with Tiger and they tell us that trying to load Tiger on the new machines can be problematical.

We spent six figures on our Apple SAN system and now we can't add rooms? What really hurts is that we went with Apple's SAN because we felt sure that whatever OS modifications Apple made, they were sure to work with the SAN.

What are we supposed to do? Buy used Macs until they get it sorted? Then spend thousands more to upgrade to the new Macs? Create stand-alone rooms and slowly push resources via Ethernet?

I've been an Apple evangelist since the SE30 (you kids just insert a long, long time) and it really pains me to have to post that Apple has really dropped the ball in a big way with this one.

Ever since OSX, Apple has been bullet-proof. Everything worked and it worked every time, all the time.

I've been urgently requesting resolution of this issue with Apple for a while now without success.

I promise to post here when/if Apple is able to fix this severe problem.

Best regards to all,

Leo

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Somebody needs to be fired at Apple. There are just too many screw ups.

Imagine how we (MAC users) would all be laughing if this was a Vista problem..

[Mark Pedersen]

Leo,

That's interesting information. I share your Apple bigotry. I've been working with the company since the (ahem) Apple II days. You're right, this is not typical behavior. My guess is the will resolve it soon, at least by NAB, which is now the show that they target for all pro app updates and announcements.

Of course, that's a hundred years away in your situation. We have 4 rooms tied to a central machine room with pro towers and raids, but have stayed away from XSAN for now. We'll definitely wait until this gets sorted out.

Thanks for the post, best of luck. Don't loose the faith. You're still light years ahead of any Windows alternative.

M

[Leo Ticheli]

Hi Mark,

On balance, the Apple XSAN has performed flawlessly, it's a joy for everyone, audio & video suites, to work with the same resources at the same time. No fall-overs, no hitches. We have terrific tech support, but have really not needed it. On the monthly call from Apple, we just report that all is well. Except for this, of course.

I am a both "belt and suspenders" kind of fellow, so we have redundancy on absolutely everything and spares on the shelf. I can't overemphasize the importance of this.

We have Apple Enterprise working with us on this problem and are getting very conflicting information. Left hand unaware of the right. I've decided to take the gloves off and demand a solution.

Mark, you're welcome to contact me and I'll give you my contacts and full details of our experience. When you do go XSAN from Apple Enterprise, you can expect a 15% discount on the large purchase and then 10% on everything else you buy from Apple. It's really outstanding.

Just ring me up; area code 205, 930 0500.

Best regards,

Leo

[Gunleik Groven]

I am in semi-deep shit over all thesee subjects as well...

It's really too f***ing silly to believe!

Gunleik

[Lexicon]

I think Apple has screwed the pooch when they shacked up with Intel and decided to start shoving out new products without a proper development cycle and third-party input. It seems like the latest batch of the OS is fine for regular users but digital content professionals are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to application compatibility and functionality. I can only hope their next upgrade that is coming in the next MacPro with the revamped Intel CPUs will be a better product.

[Simon Blackledge]

have one macpro with 10.5 on in our studio and files are even then starting to do funny things :-/. Lucky its not an 8core. Back to 10.4 for now.

s

[J.D. Frey]

so what's the difference between the new 8 cores and a previous 8 core that prevents running tiger? I guess I didn't realize that the new 8-core macs were that different.

[Gunleik Groven]

New processors and motherboards
New RAM
New GPU's
Needing new drivers?
Sorta?

Gunleik

[Leo Ticheli]

OK, here's an incomplete update:

Apple is stepping up to the plate with offers of loaner equipment while this thing is sorted out. I don't have full details yet, perhaps tomorrow.

According to Apple, my tiny little facility would be the very first to try to connect a Leopard seat with XSAN! Stunning. And terrifying.

I'm not that bold.

I'll post more details as soon as I get them.

Best regards to all,

Leo

[Gunleik Groven]

According to Apple, my tiny little facility would be the very first to try to connect a Leopard seat with XSAN! Stunning. And terrifying.

Leo

And simply not the case... LOL

Gunleik

[Leo Ticheli]

If you know someone who's successfully connected an 8-core, Leopard Mac to Apple Xsan, please give me the contact information!

It's my understanding that the Xsan must always be OS equal or above the client.

Thanks for any information you can share!

Leo

[Sean Michael Johnston]

we're in the same boat. I think we are gonna take the plunge in the next week or so and move our Xsan up to leopard server. We've heard good things and bad things, so ....

[Leo Ticheli]

Hi Sean,

Do you have enough extra storage to hold your resources in case the upgrade breaks your SAN?

Apple has offered to lend us a couple of fully populated XRAIDS to serve as a backup.

We've not yet decided if we'll give it a try. May wait until NAB when all expect this to be sorted.

Please give me a ring and I'll put you on with our guys to discuss this.

205 930 0500

Best regards,

Leo

[Sean Michael Johnston]

we have been backing up on hot swap hard discs and as soon as our current projects are backed up we'll be ready.

[Rune Hansen]

If you know someone who's successfully connected an 8-core, Leopard Mac to Apple Xsan, please give me the contact information! It's my understanding that the Xsan must always be OS equal or above the client.

I've seen entire Xsans crash and burn because a client had a higher XSan version than the metadata controllers. So yes, that's correct -- hopefully we'll see a change soon. I am not 100% sure if Apple plans on actually updating XSan 1.4 or if we will need to skip to version 2 (which is definitely Leopard safe). 2 is currently in relatively public beta, and you can get it for your facility by being an ADC member. I don't suggest it for production.

What we've successfully done for several clients is install Tiger on the new generation "Leopard Only" Mac Pros. It's possible, but not the most straight-forward. The biggest SAN we manage is almost 300 TB and has 99 clients at this moment.

Also be aware that we're seeing permissions problems with Xsan 1.4.2 and Final Cut Pro 6 project files, and are actually planning the daunting task of downgrading to 1.4.1 unless Apple comes up with something quite soon.

-Rune

[Videoteque73]

Somebody needs to be fired at Apple. There are just too many screw ups.

Imagine how we (MAC users) would all be laughing if this was a Vista problem..

Agree 100%

Apple makes too much money, they can't let this things happen...

[Cail Young]

Also be aware that we're seeing permissions problems with Xsan 1.4.2 and Final Cut Pro 6 project files, and are actually planning the daunting task of downgrading to 1.4.1 unless Apple comes up with something quite soon.

I'm getting permissions problems on a multiuser Leopard standalone station. Something is deeply, deeply borked. Has to do with (in our case) the Tiger-Leopard transition and specifically Apple changing the default group for users to 'staff' not 'wheel' without compensating for this in the upgrade/archive&install scripts. Even so, external storage seems to be treated differently to internal by FCP and I still have problems opening FCP projects created by different users on the same machine depending on whether they were first created pre-6.0.1 and where they're saved.

OY.

[Rune Hansen]

I'm getting permissions problems on a multiuser Leopard standalone station. Something is deeply, deeply borked. Has to do with (in our case) the Tiger-Leopard transition and specifically Apple changing the default group for users to 'staff' not 'wheel' without compensating for this in the upgrade/archive&install scripts. Even so, external storage seems to be treated differently to internal by FCP and I still have problems opening FCP projects created by different users on the same machine depending on whether they were first created pre-6.0.1 and where they're saved.

This reflects perfectly what we're seeing also, with the added bonus that we're seeing it on Tiger as well... Also, we're using an OpenDirectory and our default groups are respected in every application everything except Final Cut Pro (6.0.2).

It's amusing because at first it wasn't obvious, and then the more advanced user groups started complaining about not being able to work on each others' project files. In our case FCP project files are written with the group of the first level directory on the drive, which makes no sense once you start drilling down a bit into workgroups.


-Rune

[Cail Young]

In our case FCP project files are written with the group of the first level directory on the drive, which makes no sense once you start drilling down a bit into workgroups.


Indeed. Does an XML roundtrip help for you?

[Leo Ticheli]

I've got a conference call in a few minutes with Apple Enterprise; I'm asking them the following:

1. Has anyone, including Apple, tried upgrading the XSan metadata controllers so that they can have Leopard clients?

2. Is there a fix so Shake can be used with all 8 cores on the new Leopard machines.

3. What's the status of working with Red Cine and Red Alert on the new 8-core Macs with Leopard?

I imagine we'll exchange a few pleasantries about Apple and NAB as well. The rumor is that there will be some invitation only presentations in LV during NAB. Fingers crossed that we'll actually have some exciting things to receive.

If I survive the conference, I'll report.

As I said earlier, Apple is seeding us some loaner Xsans to back up our entire Xsan to give it a try if we decide to do so.

Good shooting (and editing!) and best regards to all,

Leo

[Leo Ticheli]

OK, boys and girls, here's the scoop...

1. They can find no one who has installed 10.5.1 on metadata controllers and used Leopard clients, except on brand new installations. We're going to give it a shot, migrating our existing Xsan to 10.5.1.

Apple said that large facilities buy quantities of Macs with current OS software to protect themselves from future compatibility problems. It was mentioned that one group bought 150 Tiger Macs, just to keep on the shelf.

2. No information could be released about Shake and 8-core Leopard Macs, but I got the feeling that it's the end of the road. Naturally, Apple would not disclose any future plans.

3. We were advised to query Red on compatibility of various Mac hardware/software, pretty much a, "not my department," sort of thing.

If this information already exists, can someone point to a list of compatible configurations? Mac, OS, capture cards, display cards, etc.

On the NAB front; our Apple Rep had not received his talking points from the Mother Ship. Guesses all around were that selected customers would be invited to private showings at LV, but not physically at NAB. Note that I said "guesses;" I have NO hard information on this from Apple.

I asked some other pointed questions and receive only the stonewall response.

On the upside, Apple is seeding us a lot of hardware and providing on-site engineers to oversee the operation.

If Apple does have something special for us in LV, we'll probably make the trek again.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[jon erwin]

Leo,

This is Jon over @ EB. We've got 3 suites strapped together in an XSan. About to add a 4th 8-core suite but now I'm scared to death. We already had a HUGE problem with the SAN when we did a routine software upgrade a couple of months ago (We were down for 2 weeks!)

From reading all this is the best solution to buy a new machine and down-grade the OS?

[Gunleik Groven]

If that was only doable, I'd have downgraded long ago...

Gunleik

[Leo Ticheli]

Put on the brakes, Jon; I have heard downgrading the new Leopard Macs to Tiger is either impossible or opens many problems. Please don't try it.

Here's the rule: Never, never, never, I mean NEVER, upgrade anything that's even close to an Xsan!

My favorite horror story is what happened when someone simply upgraded iTunes on an Xsan client machine and it sent the whole system down.

We keep MacBooks in the suites so none of our edit stations do anything else; no internet browsing, no email, no nothing. By keeping it totally clean and isolated and never upgrading anything without our Xsan guru's approval, we have had zero problems.

We will be upgrading our metadata controllers to 10.5.1 in the very near future with Apple's support personnel on-site and then firing up a new 8-core Leopard Mac client.

I'll report the results.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo