3rd party Batts

[Nick Gardner]

Dear Jim, Jarred, and all of red team,

I am sorry to be the turd in the punch bowl, but this is a real issue. You need to have the camera monitor voltage, warn you, and shutdown by it's self if it gets too low. The only time in 17 years of production that I have had to shoot an insurance day, was after a d-20 crashed due to low power, and the venom flash mag went to crazy town. The camera screamed and hollered that there was low voltage, the AC was just not very attentive.

I refucking-fuse to carry around an extra battery on steadicam just because a very simple software voltage monitoring system is not employed.

I would ask every one else that is a motion picture professional to please pipe up about this issue. It should be an easy fix, which would make the camera interface with professional systems much better. Cranes, steadicam, helicopter mounts, dolly for christ sake. An on board battery is not the norm for 35mm production for a reason. I know it's Red, it's different whatever. But for fucks sake lets not re invent the wheel.

I beg the red community to back me up here.

Still love the red, I just want it to be as smart as my clock radio,

Nick Gardner

[Brent J. Craig]

I agree 100%.

A professional camera that crashes when an industry-standard battery goes low is not a professional camera. We are NOT all going to use Red Blocks all the time. That's not how it works.

But if the camera was smart enough to monitor its voltage, they wouldn't make as much money on batteries, would they?

[Adrian Correia]

I agree with Nick...this should absolutely be implemented in a future build.

[reality]

I would ask every one else that is a motion picture professional to please pipe up about this issue. It should be an easy fix, which would make the camera interface with professional systems much better. Cranes, steadicam, helicopter mounts, dolly for christ sake. An on board battery is not the norm for 35mm production for a reason. I know it's Red, it's different whatever. But for fucks sake lets not re invent the wheel.r

I want to use my 3rd party batteries as much as you but hatever happened to asking politely? This site has turned into a lets all act like spoiled brats and demand what we want until RED does it. How much longer before this tactic backfires on you and REST of us all want things but have some professional to engage RED with some courtesy and respect.

[vincelucero]

I have a feeling RED is more focused on enabling other options fully and improving image/audio quality at the moment. The RED batts work fine so this may be low on the priority meter. Although I do agree it's a necessity.

In the meantime check out Rich's solution here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8397

[Joel Smith]

I agree 100%.

A professional camera that crashes when an industry-standard battery goes low is not a professional camera. We are NOT all going to use Red Blocks all the time. That's not how it works.

But if the camera was smart enough to monitor its voltage, they wouldn't make as much money on batteries, would they?

Crewpix, you sure know how to be an ass.

[Leo Ticheli]

As great as the Red is, there are some problems that really shouldn't exist.

I can't believe that most Red purchasers do not already own a complete system of batteries and chargers; the camera should be designed to operate with the industry standard.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[Harry Clark]

I wish that politeness would factor in more on this...
but I do agree that it's a very odd oversight that this camera cannot simply and accurately monitor incoming voltage and warn when it's getting too low. That's something my $400 DV home movie camera can do, and it's not dependent on having the same brand of battery as the camera. It's certainly a "must have" on any professional gear.
I think that we could make use of a third party solution here, but boy it would be great if Red would find a way...
Still enjoying the camera though! ;)
Cheers,
Harry

[NateWeaver]

I would assume the Red folks are aware and it's on a long list of things to be worked on.

But, I suppose there's a chance that nobody realized big rentals/established owners would need it so badly...

Sounds like this should be in Build 15 if it isn't already.

[Ariana]

As great as the Red is, there are some problems that really shouldn't exist.

I can't believe that most Red purchasers do not already own a complete system of batteries and chargers; the camera should be designed to operate with the industry standard.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

Which industry standard would that be?

Everyone uses different methods to communicate battery status to the camera. If you're only reading voltage then you're not communicating battery status but the voltage dependent on the cable. This can give you incorrect battery status which is cable dependent.

[Ariana]

I wish that politeness would factor in more on this...
but I do agree that it's a very odd oversight that this camera cannot simply and accurately monitor incoming voltage and warn when it's getting too low.

How does one tell what kind of battery is being used from the voltage?
Each battery type (lithium, nicad, etc) have different profiles as they approach low. Without knowing what type of battery you have, there's no way to set an appropriate cutoff voltage.

[Jarred Land]

Our number one priority as mentioned, is to make sure the RED ONE camera works with RED Stuff 100% first, then 3rd party support after that. This happens with everything, software, hardware etc. and is probably the most "normal" practice we do as a company, so im not sure why there is all this kickback.

I agree with the politeness comment Harry and Reality... wish people would ask a little nicer.. it would avoid all the personal attacks back and forth that seem to always happen.

[NateWeaver]

How does one tell what kind of battery is being used from the voltage?
Each battery type (lithium, nicad, etc) have different profiles as they approach low. Without knowing what type of battery you have, there's no way to set an appropriate cutoff voltage.

It's true the camera can't know what the discharge curve of a 3rd party battery will be, and therefore can't guess how much time is left.

What it can do though, is know how much voltage the camera needs to run, and then trip a warning at a close but slightly higher voltage.

My XDCAM HD camera dies at 11.6 volts. Therefore, at 11.8 volts the camera throws a warning. I can change what this voltage is in a menu. Only I from experience know how long I have after that warning trips (about 2 minutes), but it doesn't matter. I have time to turn the camera off before something bad happens to file closing.

While I understand (and think it makes sense for almost all situations) Jarred's statement about "Red products first, 3rd party later", I think the sooner it's fixed, the sooner the camera gains mass adoption.

[reality]

Some of us here really appreciate that the RED guys are listening to our requests. I hope the whiners and drama queens here force you guys away from this forum.

[Jarred Land]

its important as well to clear up this misconception that this is a design flaw... The RED ONE is comprised of mostly new technology, and this includes the power system. With the advanced monitoring system ( of both camera and RED battery) we can monitor not only temperature of the cells in the batteries, but how many times each cell has been charged etc and we can correct for irregularities. It truly is a better method for monitoring, and will gurantee the most run duration and lifespan out of each battery. Some of you might now of the info-lithium Sony consumer batteries.. take that idea and bump it up a few hundred notches. We really aren't trying to screw you all.

I guess you can look at it either way... you can complain that we dont have a standard power port or that the camera doesn't do certain things ( take your pick of the day) ... or you can say "thank you" that we used a standard V-lock plate as well as mounting holes for Anton plates so you could use your existing investments (to whatever degree of functionality) . We very well could of made proprietary batteries that im sure you all would of hated way more.

[Steve Freebairn]

Like others have said, let's up the politeness, and not take this great feedback venue for granted. One other thing, please don't use language like that. It's very offensive, to me and other users and I'm sure the Red team doesn't like reading hostile posts. I'm not saying it's not a valid concern, I hope it's something that can be worked on, but it's a little presumptious to think that Red should use whatever batteries you own as their standard.

[Brian Ferguson]

Dear Jim, Jarred, and all of red team,

I am sorry to be the turd in the punch bowl, but this is a real issue...
The only time in 17 years of production that I have had to shoot an insurance day, was after a d-20 crashed due to low power, and the venom flash mag went to crazy town. The camera screamed and hollered that there was low voltage, the AC was just not very attentive.

I refucking-fuse to carry around an extra battery on steadicam just because a very simple software voltage monitoring system is not employed.

Nick Gardner

So this whole thread is started about an experience with another camera? I know the RED does monitor the battery level in the status display, and the monitor. One reason to use the RED batteries is that they do talk to the camera. As to an inattentive A.C. that is the human factor that exists on film or any other camera. You need to be reminded how much time is left on the magazine etc. I really don't get the whole idea behind this thread, if the power goes off so does my clock radio.

I know the RED batteries are well made, and they are bigger than the Li-Ion batteries I used (and owned) previously. Can they be better sure - but I don't see how they are any better or worse than any other on the market. Or how running out of juice on another camera transfers to the RED ONE.

I was an A.C. for years and running out of power or media in the middle of a take is a very serious infraction of that job responsibility. I can't see how that would be any manufacturers responsibility. I am stumped as to how this is a camera problem.

[Leo Ticheli]

its important as well to clear up this misconception that this is a design flaw... The RED ONE is comprised of mostly new technology, and this includes the power system. With the advanced monitoring system ( of both camera and RED battery) we can monitor not only temperature of the cells in the batteries, but how many times each cell has been charged etc and we can correct for irregularities. It truly is a better method for monitoring, and will gurantee the most run duration and lifespan out of each battery. Some of you might now of the info-lithium Sony consumer batteries.. take that idea and bump it up a few hundred notches. We really aren't trying to screw you all.

I guess you can look at it either way... you can complain that we dont have a standard power port or that the camera doesn't do certain things ( take your pick of the day) ... or you can say "thank you" that we used a standard V-lock plate as well as mounting holes for Anton plates so you could use your existing investments (to whatever degree of functionality) . We very well could of made proprietary batteries that im sure you all would of hated way more.

Thank you, Jarred, for explaining the rationale behind the Red battery. While I'm sure it's a good system, I personally don't know if it's worth the trade-off of using standard Anton Bauer batteries.

I mention Anton Bauer because I believe they are the major player in the field and their chargers are excellent at maintaining their batteries.

I've been shooting with video cameras for over twenty five years and every one of them operated perfectly with third-party batteries. Of course I work mostly in my little corner of the Southeast, so maybe things are quite different elsewhere.

Additionally, there are restrictions on flying with Lithium batteries that do not affect the more common NiCads.

We've already had a post with a home-made battery level monitoring device and I'm pretty sure someone will offer a commercial unit; perhaps built in to an Anton Bauer plate. I think it's needed.

One final thought; I hope it's not the attitude of Red that, "you're either with me or against me." Everyone has their own needs and ways of working.

Thanks again for the explanation.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Leo.. as i said earlier, we are working with Anton directly to assist you guys with AB kits.



One final thought; I hope it's not the attitude of Red that, "you're either with me or against me." Everyone has their own needs and ways of working.

Leo

The problem I think that is happening is actually your statement backwards.. that a few CUSTOMERS are saying " your either with me or against me ", i.e " Give me what I want or your camera sucks "

Never have WE said, for example,

" 3rd-company-x doesn't work with our cameras so 3rd-company-x sucks, dont use them"

but we are getting from some customers :

" Your camera doesn't work with 3rd-company-x so the RED camera sucks and we wont use it ( or is not professional, etc. etc.)

We are trying to give people as much legacy support as possible ( our nikon mount, PL mount, 19mm/15mm, standard compact flash, Metric lenses, etc. etc. etc. ) but sometimes something new doesn't always work with something old.. at least right out of the gate.

Difference between evolutionary and revolutionary I guess....

[Chris Burket]

If you are concerned with monitoring battery voltage on your steadicam sled, look into an XCS sled. It has incredible electronics that draw equally from each battery and has a clear display of battery voltage.

[Rich Schaefer]

Guys, let's be civil & professional here. Red has seen the problem, they know it is a problem, they will address it in due time.

Here is my proactive (my beer glass is half full!) solution. Check it out maybe it will help you:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8397

Cheers,
Rich

[NateWeaver]

One final thought; I hope it's not the attitude of Red that, "you're either with me or against me." Everyone has their own needs and ways of working.


I'll go one step further and say that I know that's not the intention of Red, but the guys there are working so hard that I'm sure it's hard to respond to requests with a smile and a "yes, sir" everytime.

I think it's safe to say that everybody here wants to see the Red reach it's potential, even the guys that curse and moan.

I know I do. Especially now that I've shot my first job with one.

[Finner]

I also feel this should have been asked in a nicer way but is a definate need. Camera displaying battery voltage really seems like a simple standard feature I find on all high level cameras. Especially when runing a battery below required voltage results in such a big problem.

Jarred I understand you and the rest of red stating "just use our batteries" and from working with red battery bricks I am actually quite impressed with both the quality and price of them. I have 2 major issues with the red battery system though #1 poor quality red v mounts (not the battery), from what I have found these are very cheap and many that I know of have failed. #2 No quad charger, this is really needed (please dont say just buy 2 duals). #2 is frustrating but I can live with it. #1 is a deal breaker and the reason I am leaning towards an AB system.

[Jarred Land]

Finner, RED batteries and some other 3rd party batteries display the voltage on camera (depending if they are intelligent or not), just not all, "dumb" connections to the camera that is purely voltage wont at this point.

You can use a IDX quad V-lock charger if you want to charge our batteries, it works pretty well ( we use them at RED sometimes ).

The original cradle battery plate did suck bigtime;. but we have improved them along the way. If your using one of the old janky ones, send it back and we will take care of you.

[Finner]

Thanks for the info Jarred, good to hear the mount has been improved.

[Wes Printz]

RED batteries and some other 3rd party batteries display the voltage on camera (depending if they are intelligent or not), just not all, "dumb" connections to the camera that is purely voltage wont at this point.

Jarred, may I ask the question without sounding harsh: Which 3rd party batteries will display the voltage on the camera display? IDX Endura / Elite series is deemed "Intelligent", as I'm sure the A/B's are, since they communicate with the charger. Are you referring to the RED specifically, or other makes/models of cameras? This may help clear up a lot. I recently saw #23X, Build 13, with a RED Brick, the display was showing 85%, that is not a voltage, but a percentage of remaining capacity as I understand the concept. Is there a menu setting to toggle % to V?

This brings another question to mind. We already know the camera shuts down at 11.5V and is not user selectable, fact of life. Since the display shows %, what does RED recommend would be an appropriate percentage point to swap the RED Brick battery?

Respectfully submitted.

[Harry Clark]

I said it in his original post and I'll say it here too:
I think Rich's "ghetto" voltmeter is a great interim solution. An alarm at 12v would give some wiggle room, time-wise, before you hit the magical 11.5v shutdown.
Is it really accurate since it's not in-line on the power cable? Or does it work because the 12v out is unregulated?
I'll be interested to see what A/B comes up with in collaboration with Red.
Cheers,
Harry

[Rich Schaefer]

Good Question Harry, I think it should be accurate. From what I understand from the Red ops manuel, the outputs are unregulated.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r224/richcam1/Remoppsman1.jpg

[Mike Prevette]

Would it be that hard to build a 4pin XLR to LEMO (RED) converter box that also encoded the line voltage into RED's lingo and then sent that to the camera?

[Nick Gardner]

Great googley moogley.....

I typed that yesterday, my computer crashed, and I assumed it didn't post. I was glad because I thought I was a little bit of an asshole. I was going to rephrase the issue a little nicer today and saw this......

Anyway, I didn't mean to an ungrateful pain in the ass, but I do think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

Thanks for the info, Red Team.

Cheers,
Nick