Final Cut Studio... and 4k..?

[Marco Iannaccone]

I know Final Cut Pro 6 and Color can't deal with 4k files, because QuickTime can deal wth files with max 2k resolutions.

So... without using softwares like Scratch, etc... how can I color correct and finish the video at 4k, using Final Cut Studio?

I know I can edit in Final Cut Pro with lover resolution proxie files, but how can I then conform the edited material to the final 4k video?

Thanx

[Cüneyt Kaya]

not with final cut studio, but with after effects, its slow, you will have no playback, pain in the ass, but it will work.

[Patrick Tresch]

If you need 4k is to make a film transfert (today there is not much other screening solutions). If so, I think, you have to do a Scratch/Lustre/eQ/Davinci/Speedgrade type of color correction to get the most of your footage. 4k to 35mm with Arrilaser is 1000$/minute so the colormatching in 4k is woth to do it well.

2k transfert to 35mm is also very beautyfull and still is standard for DI.

See you.

Pat

[laguun]

For 4K editing - its Adobe Premiere Pro.

Enhanced with cineform, you don´t even need a massive diskarray, an today usual PC from Apple or others will do. It also conform nicely at >=10bit RGB.

If you want to do multitrack realtime 4K, with realtime colorcorrection (in 4k), realtime blurs (in 4K) etc, then there is DVS Clipster.

Final Cut pro sadly is limited to 2k in 8bit rgb.
Apple really should improve their core software technology in FCP, not only the wicked QT 7.4.

Btw, i didn´t check motion with 4k footage yet. Is it also limited to 2k?

[laguun]

4k to 35mm with Arrilaser is 1000$/minute so the colormatching in 4k is woth to do it well.

It seems the prices are much lower here in Berlin - we rarely see more than 30-45K prices for a 90min fullfeature with the 4K Arrilaser.

[Marco Iannaccone]

If you need 4k is to make a film transfert (today there is not much other screening solutions). If so, I think, you have to do a Scratch/Lustre/eQ/Davinci/Speedgrade type of color correction to get the most of your footage. 4k to 35mm with Arrilaser is 1000$/minute so the colormatching in 4k is woth to do it well.

2k transfert to 35mm is also very beautyfull and still is standard for DI.

See you.

Pat

This is probsbly the solution I' going to use: shoot 4k, FCP for editing (proxies), Color for color correction and conform (at 2k), 2k film trasfer for distribuition.

[Marco Iannaccone]

not with final cut studio, but with after effects, its slow, you will have no playback, pain in the ass, but it will work.

I can't, anyway, batch import my final edit to After Effects (using, for example, EDLs), right?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I can't, anyway, batch import my final edit to After Effects (using, for example, EDLs), right?

you can export everything to Aftereffects with automatic duck AE import.
http://www.automaticduck.com/products/piae/

but dont render anything in fcp, render all your effects/transitions and CC in AE

[Nick Wolf]

Can someone go into more detail about what the difference would be in terms of final results comparing fcp color with ae for cc? And maybe include in the mix the speedgrade...

The process is one aspect, time saving, hassles etc but as far as the eye is concerned can the same end results be achieved using these different routes or whats the deal?

Thanks Amigos!

Dog Day.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

For 4K editing

If you want to do multitrack realtime 4K, with realtime colorcorrection (in 4k), realtime blurs (in 4K) etc, then there is DVS Clipster.



DO YOU HAVE enough experience with it ..?:innocent:

[Alex Carr]

What about having a 4k 10 bit AJA or BlackMagic YUV or RGB 4096x2048 uncompressed to Online from your offline 1K or 2K Pro res? Then use FCP to color correct, export to 4k DPX. FCP isn't the best CC tool though... I havn't seen if I can import the file into color yet, but other than playback everything seems ok with FCP. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Color just crashes.

Is there something wrong with using custom frame sizes from FCP or QT pro? Any reason its being avoided? 4096x2048 is easily achievable in any codec.

For After Effects I have been playing with Magic Bullet Colorista, it has a little more control and is about the same layout as FCP 3-way.

[Dj Joofa]

For After Effects I have been playing with Magic Bullet Colorista, it has a little more control and is about the same layout as FCP 3-way.

After Effects has a hidden 3-way color corrector that does not show up in the plugins list, but its there and you can use it if you export something from premiere to AE. Then you can copy paste and use for AE only projects. The standard CC for AE is 2-way.

[Marco Iannaccone]

you can export everything to Aftereffects with automatic duck AE import.
http://www.automaticduck.com/products/piae/

but dont render anything in fcp, render all your effects/transitions and CC in AE

Thanx.
It looks very interesting.

Did you experience this workflow, also at 4k?Would you advise it for movie projects?

[Dj Joofa]

Thanx.
It looks very interesting.

Did you experience this workflow, also at 4k?Would you advise it for movie projects?

Automatic Duck workflow is useful for small projects. However, I have faced inconvenience because of the way AE stacks up all clips even if they were on a single track in FCP. Your typical movie project would have hundreds of edits and unless you break them and pass through Automatic Duck partially, it may be cumbersome.

[Marco Iannaccone]

Automatic Duck workflow is useful for small projects. However, I have faced inconvenience because of the way AE stacks up all clips even if they were on a single track in FCP. Your typical movie project would have hundreds of edits and unless you break them and pass through Automatic Duck partially, it may be cumbersome.

Right... I forgot that After Effects needs a different layer for each clip in the project...

So... it seems, in my situation, that the best workflow is:
- shooting 2k (so I can also shoot 48 fps and 72 fps, for later slow motion)
- import to redcine and esport to a format for editing in FCP (ProRes Full HD...)
- send the project to Color for conforming and color correction, with final esport at 2k, for Arrilaser (or similar...)

[Chris Kenny]

It's not strictly true that FCP doesn't support 4K. With the new Red Alert, try this:

1. Open 4K clip.
2. Go to render.
3. Select QuickTime as the output format.
4. Select RAW as the codec.
5. Select a full debayer.
6. Don't tell Red Alert to scale.
7. Output.

You will end up with a 4K uncompressed RGB QuickTime movie. Drop this into a Final Cut Project, and then into an empty sequence. FCP will ask you if you want to set the sequence to match the settings of the footage. Say yes.

If you look at the properties of this sequence, FCP will report it as 4000x2048 (for a 2:1 clip)... not quite 4K. However, if you export the sequence as XML, it shows up as being 4096x2048, and if you export it to a QuickTime movie, that movie is 4096x2048; the 4000 pixel limit in FCP seems to just be a GUI limitation, not an actual limitation.

Caveats:

- FCP is 8-bit only in RGB mode.
- Color doesn't support anything over 2K, so it can't be part of this workflow.
- File sizes are massive. Real-time playback or anything close to it is either impossible, or would require a very large RAID.
- I haven't done any sort of performance testing. Or much testing at all, really.
- After you've rendered out your sequence, what do you do with a 4K uncompressed QuickTime file anyway?

I also tried the above sequence of actions using ProRes instead of RAW. This results in a file that's only 65 MB for a second of footage (rather than upwards of 500 MB). Everything seemed to work in FCP, but opening a 4K ProRes file in QuickTime Player crashed the entire computer (Repeatably.) And, of course, the catch here is that ProRes is 4:2:2.

Anyway... this probably isn't useful for much at this point, but it's interesting, and it suggests that with a few more components added to the equation (like full-quality 4K QuickTime proxies that show up as 10-bit YCbCr in Final Cut), one could have 4K conforming from Final Cut Pro (with final output to, say, DPX through GlueTools) directly from compressed source footage.

(Note that I maintain my stance that there's essentially no market case for ultra-low-budget 4K at the moment. If your movie is going to be showing somewhere where 4K matters, you probably have the budget for SCRATCH.)

[Marco Iannaccone]

It's not strictly true that FCP doesn't support 4K. With the new Red Alert, try this:

1. Open 4K clip.
2. Go to render.
3. Select QuickTime as the output format.
4. Select RAW as the codec.
5. Select a full debayer.
6. Don't tell Red Alert to scale.
7. Output.

...

(Note that I maintain my stance that there's essentially no market case for ultra-low-budget 4K at the moment. If your movie is going to be showing somewhere where 4K matters, you probably have the budget for SCRATCH.)

Thanx for your post, it's extremely interesting. I'm deciding to use 2k for all teh pipeline, so I can use 48 and even 72 fps when shooting (if needed), can, for esample, use 1080p ProRes or 2k ProRes for editing in FCP, and export to Color for conforma and color granding, than export to DPX for a film writer (I don't know the price for 2k film writing in Italy, anyway), since movies in Italy are 99% times projected from film.

Anyway, what's the price for a software-only Scratch? And what about the hardware one?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

scratch is a turnkey system....you will get the software and the recommanded hardware....its in the $$$$$ Range, and if i had the money i would definitly buy it for myself....

and check chris homepage, really informative....
@chris : nice discovery with the 4k quicktimes

[Marco Iannaccone]

scratch is a turnkey system....you will get the software and the recommanded hardware....its in the $$$$$ Range, and if i had the money i would definitly buy it for myself....

Well... something nearer to... 30000$, or... 99999$?

[QUOTE
and check chris homepage, really informative....
@chris : nice discovery with the 4k quicktimes[/QUOTE]

Thanx.

Can you post the URL?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Well... something nearer to... 30000$, or... 99999$?

[QUOTE
and check chris homepage, really informative....
@chris : nice discovery with the 4k quicktimes

Thanx.

Can you post the URL?[/QUOTE]

indie4k.com

more in the 50 000 - 70 000 area...
if you really want some further informations contact lucas wilson....he is one of the mods (luki) or look here :http://www.assimilateinc.com/

[Marco Iannaccone]

Thanx.

Can you post the URL?

indie4k.com

more in the 50 000 - 70 000 area...
if you really want some further informations contact lucas wilson....he is one of the mods (luki) or look here :http://www.assimilateinc.com/[/QUOTE]

Thanx a lot!

One question: how to move the Red material from Mac to PC, for using it with Scratch?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

There are several ways of doing it, but honestly i dont know that much about it to give an advice. you could do it with an external raid system.
but the guys from assimilate will support you.

[Marco Iannaccone]

There are several ways of doing it, but honestly i dont know that much about it to give an advice. you could do it with an external raid system.
but the guys from assimilate will support you.

Thanx!

[Alex Carr]

So saying Quicktime cannot handle frame sizes above 2k is not true at all... I believe the real FCP workflow lies in 4k uncompressed to online from 2k Pro res or whatever you choose to edit with etc... Editing with proxies is slow and using referenced media... You can do your CC inside Color and then Online the 4k... I need to test it to see if the color changes hold or not. But your still CC with 4:2:2 and 8 bit... so Color is not ready yet... But its not impossible.

[Alexander Christ]

scratch is a turnkey system....you will get the software and the recommanded hardware....its in the $$$$$ Range, and if i had the money i would definitly buy it for myself....


It is also software only, run it on a Mac Pro with Bootcamp. As Scratch prefers Nvidia cards there's a good chance for a reasonable performance with 8800GT and upcoming Nvidia drivers from Apple (hopefully soon).

[Cüneyt Kaya]

but i dont know a price for a software only licence.

[laguun]

It is also software only, run it on a Mac Pro with Bootcamp. As Scratch prefers Nvidia cards there's a good chance for a reasonable performance with 8800GT and upcoming Nvidia drivers from Apple (hopefully soon).

The Scratch software is running on windows.
It can process redcode native.
However, it can´t playback and display 4K redcode in 4K, only cropped or scaled down, as a) as the utilised hardware (Nvidia Graphic cards) don´t do 4K i/o, and b) as the fullquality debayer of redcode isn´t realtime - so you need to render/transcode also with that system.

Therefore, the decision for -any- workflow for delivery to 2K & 4K filmout, D5-HD, hdcam (sr) & dvcpro, DCI or bluray is at what stage you leave the redcode and go into another codec (as cineform) or uncompressed (as dpx).

For fullfeature work, or series, or any longform format using many hours in general, it makes more sense to decompress at -the beginning- of the pipeline.

The 3D deptartment typically uses 3ds max, xsi, maya, etc, all can´t access or write redcode.
The vfx/graphics deptartment typically use flame/inferno, nuke/fusion, monet ect, and with few expceptions all can´t access or write redcode.
The sound dept (nuendo, protools etc), subtitles (babel), filmrecorders (arrilaser, celco), dci packaging systems etc - the list goes on, all the industry usual products are locked out of redcode for 4K, unless you transcode at the beginning.

furthermore, the debayering takes lot of computing power - and for many creative systems a fast system reaction is cruicial and debayering every time takes more time than reading the frame from one of the many 4K multichannel able SANs & diskarrays (sledgehammer, dvs etc).

So, if you decide to transcode not at the end of the pipeline, but in the beginning, there are many options as well.

If you have a solid $$.$$$ budget and want to have full access, with any application, playback and colorcorrect and conform in realtime in 4K with monitoring, there are systems like DVS clipster in same pircerange as scratch, which use not regular graphics card but dedicated hardware for 4K and are able to deliver realtime, multichannel 4K uncompressed performance and i/o. DVS isn´t alone in that market range, there are other extremly powerful offers from northlight, quantel etc.

If you rather prefer lower investments in the $.$$$ range, cineform offers a 4K capable solution for osx and windows, which additionally is compatible with many appications redcode doesn´t support - yet.

As Red hasn´t allowed 3hrd parties so far to support their redcode fileformat, nobody supports for native redcode 4K editing yet (or you start to hack FCP by the described methods above, but you are still only 8 bit rgb precision then).

However, Jim Jannard stated in another thread (in the "other workflows" section of this forum) that red will finally allow the software & hardware industry to support redcode by ~april, when they will document their fileformat - and surprise us with, as it seems, a lineup of new products at NAB.

Also, keep in mind that red is a new company, a small company and they are really breaking many barriers, price and performance wise. The postproduction compatibility and flow right now is certainly problematic and incompatible with the rest of the industry, but they announced that this will change soon, with open fileformats, redline cli crossplatform and finally crossplatform support for redcode wrappers.

And if you want to create broadcast/HD - FCP in 1080P YUV is an interesting choice already today, be it using prores, aja or decklink.

[Marco Iannaccone]

The Scratch software is running on windows.
It can process redcode native.

...

And if you want to create broadcast/HD - FCP in 1080P YUV is an interesting choice already today, be it using prores, aja or decklink.

Very interesting.

Thanx a lot! :-)

[M Most]

For fullfeature work, or series, or any longform format using many hours in general, it makes more sense to decompress at -the beginning- of the pipeline.

That's one view. Here's another.

In order to yield the best and most flexible color correction possibilities, ensure that everything captured by the camera is available, and keep the amount of storage required for finishing manageable, and only render what is actually in the final cut (without having to jump through hoops to locate and consolidate the frames needed), it makes more sense to decompress at the end of the pipeline - provided you're using Scratch as the conform and color correction tool. Clearly, each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. If you happen to be working on a feature that has 600 VFX shots, there is something to be said for converting earlier, at least for the VFX, and integrating those results into the final conform, which in Scratch can contain R3d files and DPX or other uncompressed image files in any combination. Having done it both ways, my opinion is that the color correction flexibility and accuracy is so superior when done directly from the R3d files that unless turnarounds absolutely dictate another approach, it is almost counterproductive to do it any other way, at least if your tools permit the use of the R3d files directly, as Scratch does. Of course, this also presumes a tightly managed color path to ensure that any and all deliverables are matched to what is seen in the screening room at the time of the original correction.

Opinions are usually based on two things: the work mix you happen to have, and the tools you happen to use to perform that work. The combination of those two things lead to your technical conclusions. Those conclusions are often different in different facilities, different segments of the business, and different parts of the world. As a result, none of those conclusions are universally correct or incorrect.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Therefore, the decision for -any- workflow for delivery to 2K & 4K filmout, D5-HD, hdcam (sr) & dvcpro, DCI or bluray is at what stage you leave the redcode and go into another codec (as cineform) or uncompressed (as dpx).

You don't have to leave the redcode to go to tape (playing 2K full quality debayer in RT from 4K redcode files).

Details will soon emerge - that's all I can say at the moment.

[Marco Iannaccone]

That's one view. Here's another.

Opinions are usually based on two things: the work mix you happen to have, and the tools you happen to use to perform that work. The combination of those two things lead to your technical conclusions. Those conclusions are often different in different facilities, different segments of the business, and different parts of the world. As a result, none of those conclusions are universally correct or incorrect.

Agree.

For a movie without VFX at all, I think the simplest (and fastest) workflow is converting the original material to a format I can fastly edit (in FCP, etc...), like ProRes FullHD, then, when the finan cut is ready, send it to Sratch (or Color, for 2k), conform with the original files, color correct, and the output for the final print.

If I'd need VFX, I'd probably give the VFX department uncompressed version of the original files at full resolutions of only the material actually present in the edit needing VFX work, then substituting the processed segments to the original ones during the last process.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

(playing 2K full quality debayer in RT from 4K redcode files).

.
Thanks Mark RED(CIA)..
I THINK IT IS BUILDE 15 ?:ohmy:

[laguun]

That's one view. Here's another.
In order to yield the best and most flexible color correction possibilities,

For the best and most flexible 4K colorcorrection, you usually would look at a 4K source on a 4K DCI projector, not at only 25% of the resolution.

No redraw basing system, neither FCP, redcine nor scratch can feed a 4K display yet.

Noise and many other aspects which arent´t visible in 2K displays can be pretty problematic on a 4k.

Therefore its recommendable for the "best" colorcorrection to decompress first IMHO. And any 4K SRX equipped colorcorrection facility i know of here in europe is feeding them with dvs clipsters/northlights/quantels etc, none with redcine/fcp/scratch.



ensure that everything captured by the camera is available,

same with decompressed starting or decompressed finishing pipelines.



and keep the amount of storage required for finishing manageable,

For the debayer starting pipeline, there are many easy options for this:
In the $$$-$.$$$ range, cineform.
In the $.$$$ range for 4K uncompressed, > 32 Terrabyte Raids with excellent controllers. (we use striped areca raid 60s in the workstations). SATA Harddisks here in Germany are now at ~200€ per Terrabyte.
In the $$.$$$$ range, systems like DVS SAN or Sledgehammer offer networked multistream realtime 4K to larger workgroups.

The benefits are
- everyone on the network can access the files, redcode raw is sadly locked in or only 2k.
- you can generate new files. As of yet, almost none of the cgi-system can write redcode, making it impossible to implement graphics/vfx&cgi etc into a redcode basing workflow - one would go uncompressed/cineform for this.
- once out of the redcode raw, you can use all the industry standard systems (edls, aafs/omfi etc), while redcode itself wonßt feed into >90% of the existing infrastructure.



and only render what is actually in the final cut (without having to jump through hoops to locate and consolidate the frames needed),

A debayer starting pipeline aims at avoiding render, and there are several debayer starting pipelines which offer render free start to end 4k.



it makes more sense to decompress at the end of the pipeline - provided you're using Scratch as the conform and color correction tool.

If you -only- work alone on a project, on could say so.
If i look at a typical workforce for a small-mid budgeted feature, i usually have 10-30 people in post (editor, their 2-3 assistants, 2-15 roto/vfx/cgi/animation, 2-4 sound, 2-4 music and mixdown, 1-2 general purpose, 1-2 IT specialists).
These people all want sources, want to write master files and to losslessly exchange images, metadata & audio. And for this redcode isnßt suitable, at least right now.

Reorganising their work in offline would be, at least for us, a giant step backwards.



Clearly, each approach has its advantages and disadvantages.

Here i fully agree. I see the advantages of debayer at the end mainly where no 4K monitoring is wished or required, for shortforms, smaller teams and for offline and proxys. The larger the project, the team, if there is need for 4K monitoring and if there is an online workflow planned - the more the debayer first workflows shows its strenghts, imho.



If you happen to be working on a feature that has 600 VFX shots, there is something to be said for converting earlier, at least for the VFX, and integrating those results into the final conform, which in Scratch can contain R3d files and DPX or other uncompressed image files in any combination.

The average A-budget today has 300-500 VFX, visualFX extravaganzas ala pirates have >3000. Even the 6 mid & low-budgets we had here in the last 24 months had at least 100-200 VFX each. In such scenarios it is cruicial to not have -a single system- to be able to playback in the native results, but many.



Having done it both ways, my opinion is that the color correction flexibility and accuracy is so superior when done directly from the R3d files that unless turnarounds absolutely dictate another approach, it is almost counterproductive to do it any other way, at least if your tools permit the use of the R3d files directly, as Scratch does.

Here, I strongly disagree.
a) for 4K colorcorrection and DI, you want realtime. scratch native 4K r3d isn´t realtime and has no 4K display. it -always- has to render and you can´t attach a SRX like to a dvs. that costs time, and then there are many spoiled directors who prefer playback over renderbars.
b) the accuracy of redcine and scratch is identical.
c) There are no "tools" who allow R3d files directly, there is one tool - scratch. All the other tools for DI (dvs clipsters, discreet lustre, quantel iq, iridas speedgrade, chrome matrix, sgo mystika, nucoda filmmaster etc etc etc) don´t support R3d yet - but are the -huge- majority of the market.
d) "its the indian, not the arrow, who makes the difference" - many highly sought after top-notch colorists are married to "their" box and certainly won´t be as cool, experienced and fast if they have to work on a system or the first time, only to support a debayer-last workflow.



Opinions are usually based on two things: the work mix you happen to have, and the tools you happen to use to perform that work. The combination of those two things lead to your technical conclusions. Those conclusions are often different in different facilities, different segments of the business, and different parts of the world. As a result, none of those conclusions are universally correct or incorrect.
I agree, and also a lot of the judgement depends on the workforce and production office.

I will hardly be able to convince the >98% of berlins top-artists to use a special system instead of their flame/infernos, ds nitris, lustres, clipsters, speedgrade, xpris, quantels, mystikas etc - even if i would have the opinion that final cut pro should replace their avids and scratch their clipsters.

also, as we are mainly in full feature and doc, i might be spoiled. if we would do commercials & clips instead, i suppose i would be not leaning so strongly towards the advantages of debayer-first pipelines.

I think, however, we can agree on one thing:
The -ideal- approach for reds workflow would be a virtual filesystem, ala decklink/dvs (or the old dps) etc products.
This would allow -any- combination of -any- advantages you and i listed for the different approaches.

For the ones not familar with the virtual file system approach:
there are products which wrap files on the fly, also over the network. imagine that below any R3d file there would be different subdirectories (as dpx, quicktime, avi, exr etc). These files however aren´t stored but transparently decoded in the background when an networked systems accesses the virtual file.

[Lucas Wilson]

For the best and most flexible 4K colorcorrection, you usually would look at a 4K source on a 4K DCI projector, not at only 25% of the resolution.

(sigh) not again...

This is your *opinion*. It is not fact. The fact is that there are several different approaches that different facilities take for good reasons.

I would be more than happy to have you talk to Josh Pines at Technicolor or Bill Feightner at EFilm and have you explain to them why they are so misguided and wrong.

A lot of world-class facilities with *plenty* of money to go out and buy 4K projectors and realtime 4K DI systems choose not to... for good reasons. Technicolor, EFilm, R!OT, Co3, Postworks - all grade 2K on a 2K projector. Not because they can't afford the 4K pipeline. Not because they think it's too much trouble. Because they have decided that for currently available delivery methodology, a 2K pipeline is the most efficient, and the best suited for accurate reproduction of what the vast majority of consumers will see.


Therefore its recommendable for the "best" colorcorrection to decompress first IMHO.

"Opinion" being the key word.


And any 4K SRX equipped colorcorrection facility i know of here in europe is feeding them with dvs clipsters/northlights/quantels etc, none with redcine/fcp/scratch.

[EDIT - My bad... I did not read this correctly, and did not see the "i know of here..."]

Laguun - there are actually a few facilities that are using SCRATCH tied to an SXRD - just not in 4k!


a) for 4K colorcorrection and DI, you want realtime. scratch native 4K r3d isn´t realtime and has no 4K display. it -always- has to render and you can´t attach a SRX like to a dvs. that costs time, and then there are many spoiled directors who prefer playback over renderbars.

You are correct that SCRATCH cannot decompress the 4K at Full Rez High in realtime and feed an SXRD in 4K. For that workflow, you have to decompress and feed a Clipster, Baselight 8, or 4K DDR like the Keisoku Giken.

But you can feed an NEC-iS8 2K, a Christie2K, or a Barco DP90 in dual-link 4:4:4 DCI 2048x1080 in realtime at 1/2 Rez High (2K) from 4K R3D files. And that is the workflow that an overwhelming majority of the world's DI market chooses to use. Perhaps in Berlin, this is not the case. But Berlin represents a very small piece of the worldwide DI delivery market. And even in Berlin, we now have 4 customers using SCRATCH for RED workflow... and they are so far very happy.


c) There are no "tools" who allow R3d files directly, there is one tool - scratch.

There are 5 tools - FCP, RED ALERT, REDCINE, REDLINE, and SCRATCH.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[LEON]

(sigh)
No, there are 5 tools - FCP, RED ALERT, REDCINE, REDLINE, and SCRATCH.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Sorry to bother you, What is REDLINE ?

[laguun]

(sigh) not again...

This is your *opinion*. It is not fact. The fact is that there are several different approaches that different facilities take for good reasons.

I would be more than happy to have you talk to Josh Pines at Technicolor or Bill Feightner at EFilm and have you explain to them why they are so misguided and wrong.


luki, don´t put words in my mouth. i called no one misguided. thats just you.

If scratch would offer 4k for 4k mastering on a 4k projector, you probably would be the first to recommend it. correct?




A lot of world-class facilities with *plenty* of money to go out and buy 4K projectors and realtime 4K DI systems choose not to... for good reasons. Technicolor, EFilm, R!OT, Co3, Postworks - all grade 2K on a 2K projector. Not because they can't afford the 4K pipeline.

And there are plenty of houses who buy more expensive 1080p or 2K cameras who could afford a red, and even those like us, who buy both, 1080p cinealtas and 4k reds.

so whats the point? the topic here is "FCS and 4k".



Not because they think it's too much trouble. Because they have decided that for currently available delivery methodology, a 2K pipeline is the most efficient, and the best suited for accurate reproduction of what the vast majority of consumers will see.

good for them, we also have 2k d.i. seats in house and also expect still ~75% of the work here in 2K/1080p mastering this year here. however we (and 3 other studios in berlin i know of) have added 4k online pipelines.



Laguun - there are actually a few facilities that are using SCRATCH tied to an SXRD - just not in 4k!

the srx is a nice device - however i would recommend to look at a 4k source on a 4k DI on a 4k projector in 4k - as you won´t see 75% of the image in 2K. do you agree or would you recommend 2k monitoring for 4k?



You are correct that SCRATCH cannot decompress the 4K at Full Rez High in realtime and feed an SXRD in 4K. For that workflow, you have to decompress and feed a Clipster, Baselight 8, or 4K DDR like the Keisoku Giken.
But you can feed an NEC-iS8 2K, a Christie2K, or a Barco DP90 in dual-link 4:4:4 DCI 2048x1080 in realtime at 1/2 Rez High (2K) from 4K R3D files. And that is the workflow that an overwhelming majority of the world's DI market chooses to use. Perhaps in Berlin, this is not the case.

red is a 4k camera, and is changing a lot in our industry. 5 years ago there were plenty of pal and ntsc grading suites, now there are plenty of 2K D.I. seats same repeats now with 4k. no big news imho.



But Berlin represents a very small piece of the worldwide DI delivery market. And even in Berlin, we now have 4 customers using SCRATCH for RED workflow... and they are so far very happy.

Now i am getting curious - which 4 companies bought a scratch in berlin?

i know of 3 houses who tried scratch here in berlin - but then didn´t buy.
Are you referring to them or do you have 4 scratchs -sold- in berlin?

in the last 4 months i only learned of the 2 new clipsters at fxf & mf, the speedgrade at mm and the new lustres at geyer.




There are 5 tools - FCP, RED ALERT, REDCINE, REDLINE, and SCRATCH.

we were talking about online editing systems - with all due respect to redline, cine and alert - they hardly are a replacement for a premiere, fcp or avid, or a clipster, pablo, smoke or a nitris.

[laguun]

Sorry to bother you, What is REDLINE ?

its a command line tool to decode redcode files into other format, recently introduced. available for osx now, soon for windows. it was a wish made come true by red for many folks here.

[M Most]

For the best and most flexible 4K colorcorrection, you usually would look at a 4K source on a 4K DCI projector, not at only 25% of the resolution.... I see the advantages of debayer at the end mainly where no 4K monitoring is wished or required, for shortforms, smaller teams and for offline and proxys. The larger the project, the team, if there is need for 4K monitoring and if there is an online workflow planned - the more the debayer first workflows shows its strenghts, imho....for 4K colorcorrection and DI, you want realtime. scratch native 4K...

It seems that most of your reasoning is based on your assumption that 4K monitoring is necessary for color correction - an assumption I, and essentially every major DI company I know of in the US (including the 4 largest ones in the world) disagree with. My opinion is that color correction is not dependent upon projection resolution in the least. And in any case, I really don't see any need for anything greater than 2K projection in a DI theater for two simple reasons: First, the color does not change at all when resolution is changed, and second, 90%+ of DI's are delivered in 2K, at least in this country, and regardless of whether you're talking about independent or studio pictures.



I will hardly be able to convince the >98% of berlins top-artists to use a special system instead of their flame/infernos, ds nitris, lustres, clipsters, speedgrade, xpris, quantels, mystikas etc - even if i would have the opinion that final cut pro should replace their avids and scratch their clipsters.

This conversation wasn't about artist recruitment, it was about working methods. Besides, I have had the opposite experience - most of our colorists, all of whom are DaVinci based, are quite interested in learning nonlinear, software based systems, be it Scratch, Lustre, Baselight, or anything else. And I really don't know why you would call Scratch a "special system" but not use the same description for everything else you mentioned. Scratch is no more "special" than Lustre, Baselight, Nucoda, Pablo, or Speedgrade, and probably has at least as many seats out there as as all of them.



also, as we are mainly in full feature and doc, i might be spoiled. if we would do commercials & clips instead, i suppose i would be not leaning so strongly towards the advantages of debayer-first pipelines.

We don't do commercials or clips in our DI theater. It is used almost exclusively for independent features and some shorts, although I will admit that most of them don't have particularly heavy VFX requirements.



I think, however, we can agree on one thing:
The -ideal- approach for reds workflow would be a virtual filesystem, ala decklink/dvs (or the old dps) etc products.
This would allow -any- combination of -any- advantages you and i listed for the different approaches.

I don't necessarily agree with that. A virtual filesystem requires a lot of overhead and to my knowledge has never really worked for real time use. In the case of Red, there is more than simply decompression taking place, so unless Red or someone else can deliver real time, full quality debayering as part of the virtual file system conversion, it's not going to accomplish what you want it to. Even Quantel's current approach to a virtual file system proposes it primarily for clients that are working with image sequences in non-real time, such as CG animators and desktop compositors.

However, having said that, a hardware assisted system that would incorporate such a feature might be interesting. Even more so if it were also serving up shared storage. Hmmm...

[Patrick Tresch]

(But you can feed an NEC-iS8 2K, a Christie2K, or a Barco DP90 in dual-link 4:4:4 DCI 2048x1080 in realtime at 1/2 Rez High (2K) from 4K R3D files.


Are we far from getting 2k (debayer from 4k r3d) RT at 24/25/30fps with Full res High?

IMHO there is a great diffence between Full H and 1/2 H, and in redcine it "sometimes" also changes overall color look.

Thanks.

Patrick

[laguun]

It seems that most of your reasoning is based on your assumption that 4K monitoring is necessary for color correction

For 4K work, 4 K monitoring is not necessary, but highly recommendable.
Sure, one can also grade 1080p or 35mm film at PAL or NTSC.

But busting noise or judging grain for a 4K master in a 2K only monitoring isn´t trivial, and ramping/banding artefacts which disappear in 2K viewing can be quite visible in 4K projection.

Its simply a question of money.
Once 4K monitoring is in the same pricerange as 2K, almost anyone will prefer 4K monitoring.



an assumption I, and essentially every major DI company I know of in the US (including the 4 largest ones in the world) disagree with.

interesting rhetorics :)
a) I i didn´t say that 4k for 4k is must, i said its much better. And none of the "4 largest ones in the world" would disagree with that i suppose. Also, last time i checked, technicolor was french, but thats another discussion.
b) its -was- a chicken/egg situation. No 4K cameras, no 4k scan, no 4k DI, no 4k distribution - so everyone was doing 1080p/2k. But now, finally, every single part of the chain has been upped, imax new 100 digital screens, landmarks 40 screen, finally begin to make 4k exhibition possible, same with red for cameras, and hey, even 65mm cameras are finding new use again here in germany (tom twyker has shoot his recent wides in 65).



My opinion is that color correction is not dependent upon projection resolution in the least. And in any case, I really don't see any need for anything greater than 2K projection in a DI theater for two simple reasons: First, the color does not change at all when resolution is changed, and second, 90%+ of DI's are delivered in 2K, at least in this country, and regardless of whether you're talking about independent or studio pictures.

I have had pretty much the same opinion, until in 2006 i had my first 2K DI switched to 4K via 4K SRX.

Suddenly, we found lots of mistakes which escaped DP, director and myself on the JVC D-ILA and the Sony BVM - especially noise.
It was not terrible, but it sure was in the "Oh! We should redo that!"-category.

An interesting sideaspect in this, which is rather in favor of your opinion - the 35mm film out (on Fuji) didn´t resolve the differences between the 2k and 4k di master version.

Back to topic. If you have 2 blue and 2 red elements in 4k, almost any 2K display gives you one magenta pixel. While unproblematic in most scenarios, this can be pretty problematic.

I do fully agree that we will mainly live in a 1080p/2K world for the decade to come, and 1080p/2k is good enough. I however am a quite fanatic when it comes to quality (hey, i am german, have to fullfil the cliche, right?) and fighting like a lion to finally get a decent -permanent- 4K projection to berlin.

Why? Most DP / director / producer who sees a large 4k for the first time is convinced to use it - you should have seen the crowds at IBC 2007 when red shwoed Jacksons CTL...



This conversation wasn't about artist recruitment, it was about working methods. Besides, I have had the opposite experience - most of our colorists, all of whom are DaVinci based, are quite interested in learning nonlinear, software based systems, be it Scratch, Lustre, Baselight, or anything else.

Davinci/poogle seasoned colorist feel the presure and want to use "other systems" frequently, but once they are in "their" new system they get pretty unflexible, at least my experience here.



And I really don't know why you would call Scratch a "special system" but not use the same description for everything else you mentioned. Scratch is no more "special" than Lustre, Baselight, Nucoda, Pablo, or Speedgrade, and probably has at least as many seats out there as as all of them.

With "special system" i was referring to fcs and scratch due to their r3d decode. When it comes to marketshare, i can only speak for what i see in germany, and scratch is really rare here. I know of Acht frankfurt, one in Munich, and have heard of a berlin basing installation.

However cineplus alone here in berlin operates >10 discreet/quantels and among the 15 DI suites i know first hand in Berlin there is no scratch suite yet.




I don't necessarily agree with that. A virtual filesystem requires a lot of overhead and to my knowledge has never really worked for real time use.

Have a look at DVS clipster.
They have multichannel realtime 4k, with multichannel realtime 4K colorcorrection, blurs etc -and- a virtual file system.

Their metadatasoftware, spryce, is free and also an nice enhancement for any speedgrade/scratch etc.



In the case of Red, there is more than simply decompression taking place, so unless Red or someone else can deliver real time, full quality debayering as part of the virtual file system conversion, it's not going to accomplish what you want it to. Even Quantel's current approach to a virtual file system proposes it primarily for clients that are working with image sequences in non-real time, such as CG animators and desktop compositors.

For the CG/VFX/Anim/Sound/Graphics etc, realtime isn´t that crucial - they can cache the files locally and then monitor via iridas framecycler etc.



However, having said that, a hardware assisted system that would incorporate such a feature might be interesting. Even more so if it were also serving up shared storage. Hmmm...
I have to admit that i was really awed when i saw in december playing the little $$$ pc (quadcore, striped 500er raid, gf 8800gt) playing back 4k files in RT in Premiere with cineform.
Our methods will be as silly as the era of single frame recording to decks and laserdiscs instead of having an uncompressed file and our mighty imageboxes (64 Megabytes! 120.000 USD! 4 seconds of uncompressed playback!) instead of a flame/lustre/smoke/combustion is today.

Calibrated workflows via XYZ, defined desktop to screen via DCI, highspeed SANS for any computer, 3D and HDR fileformats and more layers of embedded metadata are some of the main missing features for us.

But lets focus to the points we foundwe can agree on, shall we?
FCS would benefit extremly from higher bitdeptht in RGB and should allow 4k resolution.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

cine-chromatix have a scratch suite in berlin...but what you are talking is really
interesting, especially how do you want to set up a fast enough storage system for 4 k uncompressed.----how do you set up a fast enough storage system for 200 € per TB? i think this a point where i misunderstood you.

[Kevin Lang]

[QUOTE=laguun;153449]For the best and most flexible 4K colorcorrection, you usually would look at a 4K source on a 4K DCI projector, not at only 25% of the resolution.

The main reason you do not use a 4k projector is there is only really only one 4k projector and it is made by Sony and it uses 3 chips for each color and does not give a exact color rep. this is why everyone works in 2k and scales to 4k the math is pretty close. Now at NAB this year I am sure it is a different story.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Studios will color grade using 2K projectors in the next 5 years till 4K projectors improve a quality and would drop the prices.

So we (REDusers) don't need 4K CC till a moment when the projectors would reach our's price/performance value/level.

All discussion about 4K CC is still irrelevant.

Have a look at the picture below.

http://parkroad.co.nz/images/uploads/telecine-digital.jpg
Park Road’s Digital Intermediate Quantel infrastructure, the largest of its kind in Australasia.
THIS IS A PLACE WHERE "CTL" CC WAS DONE A YEAR AGO.

One of the Pablo suites has a purpose-built grading theatre with a six metre screen
and the latest Barco 2K projection technology and TrueLight colour management system.
The theatre can also display a split screen with a 35mm Kinotron projector which assures
perfect matching of film and digital outputs.

ONLINE
Our online options include not only the Quantel Pablo and IQ, but also Final Cut and Avid systems.
With 12 terabytes of online storage and 40 terabytes of nearline storage, projects of any size,
standard and format are easily supported and accommodated.

VISUAL EFFECTS
2D visual effects are easily accommodated in our online suites.
More advanced shots can be completed on our stand-alone workstations using
shake, maya, combustion and after effects tools. Park Road has a talented pool
of visual effects artists who are experienced in creating visual effects.


LINK>>> (http://www.parkroadpost.co.nz/services/digital_intermediate)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

this is a GUESS (nothing more)
wait for NAB, red will announce :
a 4k monitor for under 20 K

[M Most]

this is a GUESS (nothing more)
wait for NAB, red will announce :
a 4k monitor for under 20 K

A monitor and a projector are two very different things with very different purposes.

Besides, announcing and shipping are two very, very different things. I would think Red would be one of the first to tell you that now, with hindsight.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i know...

[Lucas Wilson]

For 4K work, 4 K monitoring is not necessary, but highly recommendable. Sure, one can also grade 1080p or 35mm film at PAL or NTSC. ...

b) its -was- a chicken/egg situation. No 4K cameras, no 4k scan, no 4k DI, no 4k distribution - so everyone was doing 1080p/2k. But now, finally, every single part of the chain has been upped, imax new 100 digital screens, landmarks 40 screen, finally begin to make 4k exhibition possible, same with red for cameras, and hey, even 65mm cameras are finding new use again here in germany (tom twyker has shoot his recent wides in 65).

I totally agree that when 4K distribution is widespread, then 4K post and 4K projection will be the obvious choice and the obvious way to do things. I guess what a lot of us are saying is that it is bleeding edge and difficult/expensive to do. Which is why so much DI is done at 2K. Pure economics. Also... even though you seem to be pretty happy with the SXRD, and I'm sure your facility keeps it well calibrated, the general consensus in the post industry is that the SXRD is not a good choice for post production. This is not because it can't be calibrated and accurate, but because it is much more difficult than it should be to calibrate it, keep it calibrated, and keep it accurate.

Plus, the only way to feed the darn thing 4K (outside of the Sony Server) is 8x HD-SDI cables. I think we can all agree that four quadrants, each fed by dual-link HD-RGB, tied together via a tiling scheme is a setup that is very easy to screw up, and very easy to fall out of alignment.


Also, last time i checked, technicolor was french, but thats another discussion.

Thomson is French. Technicolor is American. Yes, Thomson owns Technicolor, but the cultures of the two companies are a bit... ummm... different. :)


b) its -was- a chicken/egg situation. No 4K cameras, no 4k scan, no 4k DI, no 4k distribution - so everyone was doing 1080p/2k. But now, finally, every single part of the chain has been upped, imax new 100 digital screens, landmarks 40 screen, finally begin to make 4k exhibition possible, same with red for cameras, and hey, even 65mm cameras are finding new use again here in germany (tom twyker has shoot his recent wides in 65).

Agreed. 4K distribution is coming... and when it is really and truly here, then true 4K post will be a necessity. The first time a major facility is busted because an error not seen in 2K is visible at a consumer theatre in 4K is the day before they start pricing 4K post production.


I however am a quite fanatic when it comes to quality (hey, i am german, have to fullfil the cliche, right?)

LOL!



But lets focus to the points we foundwe can agree on, shall we? FCS would benefit extremly from higher bitdeptht in RGB and should allow 4k resolution.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I thought that FCS did allow higher bit-depths. But the problem is the effects and transitions. A clip can be loaded and played back at higher bit-depths, but as soon as you add a dissolve or a DVE, colors are clamped.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[laguun]

cine-chromatix have a scratch suite in berlin...

Ah, cine-impuls is it then (chromatix is a daughter of them). Good to know, i know several guys there - and meet one of their former presidents, heinz, later on today.




but what you are talking is really interesting, especially how do you want to set up a fast enough storage system for 4 k uncompressed.----how do you set up a fast enough storage system for 200 € per TB? i think this a point where i misunderstood you.
No, no misunderstanding.
200€ per Tbyte is good for 4K raid configuration.

Striped SATAII pci-e or pci-x controllers, we are using areca.
http://www.areca.com.tw/products/pcie.htm
then add SATAII disk as you need, 24 minimum, better 32 disks or 48.

Fast drives (as samsung F1) are sustaining >100 Mbytes -per- drive, slower ones (as WD Caviar II, which we use atm) are giving us >80 Mbytes a disk.

If you use "only" 24 disk make sure to not fully use the raid - the drives are getting slower towards the end of their capacity and datarates will be to low for 4K uncompressed.

Price per Gigabyte is at ~0.15 eurocent (excl. VAT) in SATA, sweetspot is 500-750 GB per drive. I just wrote 200€ per TB as i counted in the controllers costs with ~30-60€ per diskport.

We also checked the more expensive and even faster SATA drives like the WD raptors in 16drive configurations, but 32 slower drives and less expensive drives performed better here.

Whats also nice about these systems : applications as combustion are ~realtime in 2K colorcorrection then, even with several blurs, given a decent video card (we used the 7800, in its overpriced "4500 quadro" mutation).

Testbed was mainly XP Pro 64 bit btw.
If you want the full system specs just give me a call.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

check your pm

[laguun]

Thomson is French. Technicolor is American. Yes, Thomson owns Technicolor, but the cultures of the two companies are a bit... ummm... different. :)

They really don´t have 120++ minutes lunchbreaks and wine in the afternoon at technicolo? scnr...



Agreed. 4K distribution is coming... and when it is really and truly here, then true 4K post will be a necessity. The first time a major facility is busted because an error not seen in 2K is visible at a consumer theatre in 4K is the day before they start pricing 4K post production.

I am not "mayor"; and i haven´t been busted, but i have had -exactly- that situation in 2007 for the first time in a 4k pre-screening, and believe me, that is reason enough for me to become pretty careful there...

neither i (with over 100 master under the belt), nor dp, nor director spotted it in top-class 2K and 1080P monitoring (jvc d-ila and sony bvm class 1) and on the 4k projection we suddenly had the noise which we removed in certain shots in 2K well visible again.

We didn´t buy an SRX yet, only rental so far - i am holding my wallet tight to my body at least until nab 07 before deciding on 4k projektion... and hope that red will kickstart that market as well.



Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but...
I thought that FCS did allow higher bit-depths. But the problem is the effects and transitions. A clip can be loaded and played back at higher bit-depths, but as soon as you add a dissolve or a DVE, colors are clamped.

And RGB export - there you also can get the nasty fcp "will posterise for free" feature.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I thought that FCS did allow higher bit-depths. But the problem is the effects and transitions. A clip can be loaded and played back at higher bit-depths, but as soon as you add a dissolve or a DVE, colors are clamped.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Luki - I WISH that was the only issue. Glue Tools may have the total FCS fix - TBD at NAB.