Zeiss Superspeeds

[Greg M]

A friend has a set of Super Speeds for sale, they are MKIII's in excellent condition for $29k. PM if you are interested and I'll forward him your info. Set includes 18,25,35,50 and 85mm

MODS- I realize this belongs in a Classified section, I posted here because there is a huge shortage of these lenses and Red owners have been searching high and low for these. These are not my lenses, and I am not making any money, just thought I would pass on some useful info. Please delete if you feel this is inappropriate.

EDIT:
LENSES ARE SOLD

[Stephen Williams]

A friend has a set of Super Speeds for sale, they are MKIII's in excellent condition for $29k. PM if you are interested and I'll forward him your info. Set includes 18,25,35,50 and 85mm

MODS- I realize this belongs in a Classified section, I posted here because there is a huge shortage of these lenses and Red owners have been searching high and low for these. These are not my lenses, and I am not making any money, just thought I would pass on some useful info. Please delete if you feel this is inappropriate.

Hi There,

A little bit expensive IMHO, bearing in mind Arri sold of the last batch at half price to clear them.

Stephen

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

I have personnaly received an interesting offer for a set of Zeiss Standard Speed (T2.1) MK.II... I'm still a little undecided... Could anyone here explain me the differences between those 2 sets: Super-Speed MKIII vs. Standard speed MK.II. Obviously, the "Super Speeds" are faster, but are they sharper? What about the number of blades for the IRIS (this little info is pretty hard to find on the internet)? What about the contrast? What about the flares? What kind of job would you do (or would you rather avoid to do) with either of these 2 kind of Zeiss Lenses?

Any advice, any kind of enlightenment would be quite appreciated :^)

[Tonaci Tran]

There are people out there who would be willing to pay 30,000 for a set because the set is so rare.

With that being said, I have a strong feeling that a RED prime set is inevitable. They have a 300mm already, so nothing would stop them from producing the more popular ranges such as: 18,25,35,50 and 85mm.
Judging from the current price of the 300mm prime, it would be likely that the set will hover around 25,000. So I would be hesitant in throwing down 30 grand with all the upcoming NAB announcements.

The primary drive for people to spend so much for the super speeds is to save that extra stop due to using the 35mm adaptors.

Stephen, would you happen to know any other advantages that super speeds have over standard primes?

[Stephen Williams]

I have personnaly received an interesting offer for a set of Zeiss Standard Speed (T2.1) MK.II... I'm still a little undecided... Could anyone here explain me the differences between those 2 sets: Super-Speed MKIII vs. Standard speed MK.II. Obviously, the "Super Speeds" are faster, but are they sharper? What about the number of blades for the IRIS (this little info is pretty hard to find on the internet)? What about the contrast? What about the flares? What kind of job would you do (or would you rather avoid to do) with either of these 2 kind of Zeiss Lenses?

Any advice, any kind of enlightenment would be quite appreciated :^)

Hi Arkham,

Zeiss Standards are probably sharper, they dont work well on a P+S technic adapter due to vignetting issues so have a lower resale value at the present time. (The exit pupil is too small, on the wider ones)

The Mk III superspeeds have a larger focus scale, that being the main change from the MKII superspeeds. Wide open they are not very sharp or contrasty, vastly better by T2.5

Only the very early SuperSpeeds have the ugly 3 bladed iris look. (Actually they have more than 3 blades)

I don't know why but I personally prefer the Superspeeds. I have rented both sets over the years. I own some early ones that have 16 iris blades with my Ultracam cameras.

How either will perform on a Red is unknown at this time.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, would you happen to know any other advantages that super speeds have over standard primes?

Hi,

At $5,000 a lens I would look for 2nd hand Ultraprimes. I have seen them go for under $6,000 per lens, not quite as fast @T1.9 but far better handling.

The only thing that's wrong with the SuperSpeeds and the reason they are no longer made is the glass contains lead! That is not allowed in the EEC any more, why Sony had to release the 900R.

Stephen

[Tonaci Tran]

in that case.. so the standard speeds contain lead too?


Hi,

At $5,000 a lens I would look for 2nd hand Ultraprimes. I have seen them go for under $6,000 per lens, not quite as fast @T1.9 but far better handling.

The only thing that's wrong with the SuperSpeeds and the reason they are no longer made is the glass contains lead! That is not allowed in the EEC any more, why Sony had to release the 900R.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

in that case.. so the standard speeds contain lead too?

Hi,

Not sure, the standard's were replaced by the Ultraprimes. I guess you could say the SuperSpeeds were replaced by the Master Primes, just a bigger price gap.

Stephen

[Greg M]

my .02-

(First let me say that I dont care if these sell here, my friend will sell these fast. I posted only to help others on this board.)

I had a set of MKII superspeeds that I bought new years ago, I sold them about 2 years ago in mint condition for $16k...I was pleased.

Last year I started looking for another set, and as you all know there were NONE. I finally found a very nice set of MKII for $25k...I told the guy he was CRAZY. The very next day I decided I was crazy and called him back to purchase, needles to say they were gone. I have since bought a new set of Ultra Primes. The bottom line is its a sellers market, there are only so many of these sets in existence and those for sale are very rare. I have since seen several MKII go for $25k. Bottom line $29k for 5 lenses is the market value and will be for some time to come as more people use primes on video gear.

Regarding used Ultra Primes....ha
If you can find used UP's for $5k each you can double your money INSTANTLY. Used UPS go for $8-12k depending on fl and thats IF you can find them.

[Scott Webster]

With the Red and SI camera you would think the Zeiss Super Speed and P+S market is going have what I believe is referred to as a 'correction'.

[Scott Webster]

my .02-

(First let me say that I dont care if these sell here, my friend will sell these fast. I posted only to help others on this board.)

I had a set of MKII superspeeds that I bought new years ago, I sold them about 2 years ago in mint condition for $16k...I was pleased.

Last year I started looking for another set, and as you all know there were NONE. I finally found a very nice set of MKII for $25k...I told the guy he was CRAZY. The very next day I decided I was crazy and called him back to purchase, needles to say they were gone. I have since bought a new set of Ultra Primes. The bottom line is its a sellers market, there are only so many of these sets in existence and those for sale are very rare. I have since seen several MKII go for $25k. Bottom line $29k for 5 lenses is the market value and will be for some time to come as more people use primes on video gear.

Regarding used Ultra Primes....ha
If you can find used UP's for $5k each you can double your money INSTANTLY. Used UPS go for $8-12k depending on fl and thats IF you can find them.

Tell you what, you want to sell your UP's for 5K a pop I'll take them!:)
Stephen if you find a set at that price call me!

[Evin Grant]

I'm unsure how well an older prime set will perform on Red, they are designed for 35mm film stock and that has distinctly different properties than a sensor, they will be sharp, but how well will they control CA, or purple fringing, and what about vignetting. These digital specific issues were all adresed to some extent in the Master primes in the Cooke S4s & newer Nikon lenses. But it's hard to say how a 15-20 year old super/standard speed set will perform on a Mysterium sensor.

[roryhinds]

I too have been shopping around for lenses but have stopped as I feel that when RED release a set of Primes the value of these Zeiss Super Speeds will drop.

As the question would be why by a 15 - 20 year old set of lenses when you can by a brand new set designed by the same company who makes the camera.

I have a used set of S16mm lenses that I'll used with my Nikon Still lenses and 300mm Red while I await a set of RED Primes to hit the market.

Lenses are a major concern and I hope the RED team see the demand is there for a new player offering quality fast cine lenses.

[Greg M]

I personally dont believe this will happen. IMO Super Speeds are still very fine lenses, and I doubt RED will offer a superior piece of glass at lower prices. Once RED and other video cameras that accept PL mounts become available the market will only get worse.

Personally I wouldnt pay $30k for Super Speeds, I would rather invest $60k in Ultra Primes...which is what I did.

Just a side note: I have already made made back nearly my entire purchase price in rental savings on my Ultra Primes in less than one year. So for me they were a no brainer. Even at $30k for the Super Speeds, it doesnt take long to pay for them.

Now, if you dont do enough work to justify this kind of purchase then simply rent your lenses and pass the expense on to your customer. Whenever I use my primes, I bill the client a rental fee. If the client cant afford the rental we have less expensive equipment options. I dont give away the lenses...you get what you pay for.


<<As the question would be why by a 15 - 20 year old set of lenses when you can by a brand new set designed by the same company who makes the camera.<<

Because lens technology does not evolve as fast as electronics.

[Greg M]

Tell you what, you want to sell your UP's for 5K a pop I'll take them!:)
Stephen if you find a set at that price call me!

call me in 3 years and we have a deal.

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

Thank you so much Stephen! I really appreciate your help!

Indeed, the choice of prime lenses for the Red is a tough one. I, for one, believe I should own a "basic set" of primes for standard jobs and rent ultra-primes, master-primes or Cook S4 whenever possible,according to the look I want to achieve. I love the look the Cooke S4 gives, but I recognize the Zeiss sharpness could be interesting in many situations too.

Actually, I do own a set of Lomo Primes (the fastest and sharpest ones, not the anamorphic ones), and I am in love with those too... I bought them two years ago for 200 US$/lens, and nowadays, it seems they are worth more than 450$ a piece. Quite a good investiment apparently. Only problem is they are OCT-19, and I'd have to pay around 600 US$/lens to transform them to PL mount... because I'm not sure there is a plan for an OCT-19 mount for the Red camera! Therefore, I'm also considering another set of primes and selling the Lomos to one of those Mini35 users :-) But if the Zeiss standard speeds suffers from vignetting issues with the mini-35, I guess they won't be such a good choice for Red either...

Tough choice indeed! I either can:
1- Cross my fingers hoping someone will make an OCT-19 mount for the Red.
2- Pay 3000$ to have a set of PL mount LOMO lenses
3- Pay many more thousand US$ to get a set of Zeiss Standard (probably sharper, but much slower too...) which could eventually be not so "good a choice" for the Red...
4- Wait for Red to announce their own set of primes, and pay even more than the second hand Zeiss standard set I've been lurking for a few days...

What would you do if you were in my shoes ?

[Rick Darge]

I'd wait.. It's not like you have a RedOne yet

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

I'd wait.. It's not like you have a RedOne yet

Very true! My only concern is that, with thousands of Red users eventually looking for affordable quality primes, the more we wait, the more the prices will go up :)

But, I think I'll wait anyway! After all, as I said, rental prices are not so high for standard or ultra speeds Zeiss...

[Dominic Jones]

Tough choice indeed! I either can:
1- Cross my fingers hoping someone will make an OCT-19 mount for the Red.
2- Pay 3000$ to have a set of PL mount LOMO lenses
3- Pay many more thousand US$ to get a set of Zeiss Standard (probably sharper, but much slower too...) which could eventually be not so "good a choice" for the Red...
4- Wait for Red to announce their own set of primes, and pay even more than the second hand Zeiss standard set I've been lurking for a few days...

What would you do if you were in my shoes ?
You've got another option, which I'd seriously consider if I was in your shoes - get the Red with a PL mount, and have a camera shop engineer you an OCT-19 mount for it - you should be able to get that done a lot more cheaply than modifying your lenses, assuming it will be possible, which sounds likely given what's been said about interchangeability of lens mounts.

That way you can either rent PL mount lenses and use the PL, or for lower budget stuff swap out the mount for the OCT-19 and use your Lomos...

It's kind of option (1), but without the crossing your fingers bit!!

[Tonaci Tran]

I doubt RED will offer a superior piece of glass at lower prices.

If the Red team can make a superior 4k camera at a fraction of the cost of 1080p cameras, I can't see any reason why that can't do the same with optics. Somewhere close in quality is good enough if it is at a fraction of the cost. The 300mm prime will be the first example of RED lenses that we will have a chance to critique in one month at NAB. I'm confident that Jim and company will impress us with their lenses. Best of all, they can fine tune the glass to be the most optimum for RED. Their 300mm prime has already been set at 5,000. IF they can pull of a whole set for around 25,000-30,000, I think I would choose this over buying a set of used ultra primes. my 2 cents.

[Poi Boy]

If you are shooting digital, new lens design trumps old lens design. Some old lenses are great but new ones are better.
Aloha
-A

[Rick Darge]

Tonaci - I feel the same way as you, and I'm sure a lot more share this sentiment - It's not a matter of whether or not RED will give us a set of S35 primes, it's a question of when.. Until that point, I'm going to be using my 4 Nikkor AIS lenses and renting Cooke & Zeiss when the client pays for it. Red are wise

[Dominic Jones]

Until that point, I'm going to be using my 4 Nikkor AIS lenses and renting Cooke & Zeiss when the client pays for it. Red are wise
Sounds like you're pretty wise, Richard!

The only thing I'd say about this debate is that it seems a little premature to talk about whether Red optics will be as good or better a bet than xxxx optics when no-one's had a chance to test them (and in fact, in this case, before they're even announced!).

No need to make a decision until you can get one in your hands, so I don't plan on it...

That's not to say they're not going to be great, simply that no-one knows yet - so try and take it easy on the flaming! ;-)

[Poi Boy]

Absolutely correct Dominic; one thing that can be said with certainty is that paying $30+K for a set of used 10, 20, 30year old lenses is a bit crazy. We can only hope that the new demand that the 1500+ maybe 5000 potential red users will create some economies of scale that will convince a modern lens manufacturer to respond with some great lenses at a price that is half of the current norm.
Aloha
-A

Aloha
-A

[Rick Darge]

(Snarky accent) Way to bring the entire system to its knees Red!

[Brook Willard]

Now that this thread has gained some steam, I'm moving it to the lens forum.

[Stephen Williams]

. Used UPS go for $8-12k depending on fl and thats IF you can find them.

Hi,

Ever thought of buying new from Arri!

Stephen

[Greg M]

Thats what I did

[b e n t o n]

Wow
I wonder how much should I pay for an Aaton Arri Arriflex Zeiss MK2 T2.1 PL Prime Lens Kit
( only incl. MK2 T2.1, 16mm, 24mm, 32mm, 50mm & 85mm. )
???

[Evin Grant]

$7000-$9000 depending on conndition.

[b e n t o n]

Thanks Evin,
I just watched them go past 10,000$ on eBay

[Nick Wolf]

Hello to one and all here in the realm of Red...

Any one care to chime in with their experience concerning these lenses?

Zeiss T1.3 MKII Super Speed

Zeiss T1.4 Super Speed Lens

Zeiss T2.1 Standard Prime Lens

What are the distinctions of the pros and cons with these lenses?


Thanks,
/ DogDay.

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi dogday,

Hope u have a good afternoon...

One of the main issues of Superspeeds MKII is their actual size, field illumination and external focus drive.

MKIII are still accepted and widely used because:
They illuminate S35, and they don't change their size when focused (internal focus). They still ramp slightly (which newer and more costly lenses don't) and the gear drives aren't alined. (Focus puller needs to reposition FF unit or motors after change of lens.)

MKII are a choise when conditions do but budget doesn't allow anything else that fast. They are as old and go back to the early 1970ies. They will not be a good choise for S35 photography in my mind (certainly not with rental expectations).

Is Zeiss T1.4 something out of the still world? I don't know anything about them.

The Standard Primes were discussed on another thread...

Hope this helps