Low end Steadicam models + Red?

[Jason Ing]

I was wondering if the lower end steadicams (one of them costs $4000 and can carry 10lbs, etc.) could go with a Red (maybe switching out the mattebox with screw on nd would help with the weight issue?) I don't know the complete line of steadicams and what the lower end models are capable of.

Anyone know?

Thanks!

[Jason Ing]

Or maybe my original thought of handholding it with the shoulder mount and removing the shake in Shake/Fusion would be just as good (although it's extra work in post versus extra cost in production equipment)? Pros and cons anyone?

[Joe Vinson]

Not a chance.

Even if you had only the RED body and lens — without mattebox or follow focus, and with everything else tethered from a backpack (keeping in mind that those long cables are expensive) — you're looking at around a 20-pound rig.

Removing shake can be done pretty easily in post if the camera is basically in the same spot. However, since the whole point of a Steadicam rig is to move around, you get into 3D motion tracking, which is waaaay harder. It will not look natural.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You will need a steadicam rig that is rated to at least 20lbs to be seriously usable with RED.

Removing camera shake in post can also be problematic with motion blur. Even if you stabilize your focal objects, you can't do anything about how they've been blurred from the motion.

[Jason Ing]

That's the kind of experienced know-how I needed.

Thank you Akabaka and Jeff!!!

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i like Bumblebee800 FROM
http://www.bassonsteady.com.ar/shop/categorias.asp?id=1
IT LOOS GOOD FOR ME and no so expensive :gun:

[Matt Uhry]

The "Action Cam" that Brian Goff had at LART was really well thought out...

http://www.actionproducts.ch/

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Omar Saad]

i like Bumblebee800 FROM
http://www.bassonsteady.com.ar/shop/categorias.asp?id=1
IT LOOS GOOD FOR ME and no so expensive :gun:

Your link brings up an interesting question Bassem. Has anyone here either used or heard any feedback about "steadycams" from this company? I believe that they are made in South America. I recall a brief discussion about it last year but at that time no one had any first hand knowledge of them.

[red1225]

I've used the RED on my Glidecam V-25 system and it worked very well. My system is rated for 27lbs. I had the body a Zeiss Mk II lens, RED battery, and Bartech remote focus system and M-One motor on top. No matte box although I could have had one on (weight wise) but the config of the rig would not allow because we had no clip on. Glidecam V-25 rig + batteries is about $12,000 when it's all said and done.

[Tonaci Tran]

Check this out:
http://redmodz.com/stabilizers/49-Action%20Products%20Actioncam%20/

Alot of exciting improvements to the "Red" edition Actioncam coming. Also part II of my review will be coming soon.

[vincelucero]

i like Bumblebee800 FROM
http://www.bassonsteady.com.ar/shop/categorias.asp?id=1
IT LOOS GOOD FOR ME and no so expensive :gun:

Wow, that price seems TGTBT. Wonder if they'll be at NAB. I'm in the market to fly my RED. Right now the Actioncam looks like the best bet. Is the group buy still available?

[Tonaci Tran]

Action Products will be at NAB this year. Unfortunately the groupbuy is over. But at 11,900 it is still a great deal. If you are interested in purchasing one please contact me here: http://redmodz.com/contact

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That bumblebee one is attractively priced. Looks interesting... The 15.5lb limit will probably mean it's not strong enough for RED. OTOH, the SilverArro925 unit on the same page is only about $230 more and it's rated to 28lbs -- that seems like a good unit to look into.

[Priyesh P.]

I'm really sceptic about this Basson stuff. I didn't hear positive things but feedback like: badly made=low precision etc.

[Jason Ing]

2k more because of a $#%@#$@ bad economy?!! :(

I want to try it before buying... I'll be at NAB... under 10k was a possibility... but 2k more... that cuts into my light/sound budget.

Maybe another group buy or a NAB deal?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm really sceptic about this Basson stuff. I didn't hear positive things but feedback like: badly made=low precision etc.

You get what you pay for, eh?

[Dustin Cross]

I tried a Basson at NAB a couple years ago and thought it was okay, but I am no expert. Something about the placement of the arm was weird for me. It was a little high and kept banging my right elbow. I have read a lot of bad reviews though.

The Actioncam sounds great. Wish I could have justified getting in on the group buy.

The best low cost system I have tried is the one Sachtler sells:
http://www.artemis-hd.com/no_cache/produkte/artemis_dv_pro_md/uebersicht.html
It is about $10k and can hold up to 28lbs. I liked that the arm attached to the back like the high end systems and not in the front like most low end systems. It felt much more comfortable. Much less stress on my low back.

But I am an amateur in the stabilizer field.

Mahalo,
Dusty

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

what about glidcame ? 16, 20, 25 ?:weight_lift:

[chuck colburn]

Steadicam forum

[siniarch]

Hey Jing,
(finally I can contribute to one of the post in Reduser Other than my monitor)
I bought this one.
http://www.fsprostab.com/english/components/components.htm
and for the price there is nothing else that can handle 20lb on top and 8lb on the bottom of the sled. Might still be pushing it with the RED, but its probably the lowest price one that is decent.

[Priyesh P.]

You get what you pay for, eh?

Yes, Jeff, thats the point :-)

[vincelucero]

Hey Jing,
(finally I can contribute to one of the post in Reduser Other than my monitor)
I bought this one.
http://www.fsprostab.com/english/components/components.htm
and for the price there is nothing else that can handle 20lb on top and 8lb on the bottom of the sled. Might still be pushing it with the RED, but its probably the lowest price one that is decent.

20 lbs. at the high end may be pushing it. I can't see getting all I need down to under 20. Too bad. What camera do you use it with?

[Jason Ing]

I remember watching a very cool "steadicam" rig posted somewhere on the forum that allowed a lot more movement, it could boom up, down, and the camera moved inside it's own "compartment" at the end of the post. Anyone know the name so I can search for it? I know it cost an arm and a leg, but I started thinking that it would be great to get something that I could do dolly, boom, and steadicam movements. Thanks.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

http://www.mk-v-ar.com/ expensive, but very cool.

[Jason Ing]

Thanks Jeff. yeah, that's the one. i know it's out of my range, but how much? and does anyone know how much a day rental is in LA for it? Thanks!

[Jaron Berman]

As for rental, I've personally never heard of any place that's trusting enough to do it around here. Usually a rental is from an owner/operator to production. The AR is a very complex system, and even for seasoned ops with 10+ years, it can be daunting to use and even to set up. Try making friends with someone who owns it, and see if they'll let you play. Otherwise, wait for one of the gear expo's.

There is a lot of discussion of the system at steadicamforum.com, if you're interested in technical details or politics, the threads concerning this system are perhaps the only more heated camera forum online aside from those referring to RED.

The current AR is constructed as a system that is fully supported only for MK-V stabilizer systems. While it can be made to work with XCS or PRO to an extent, it's pretty proprietary. And because it adds a LOT of weight, you're forced to use one of the larger arms on the market - a re-sprung 3A style arm, Master/ultra, PRO, or G-70. It slowly creeps out of alignment during shots. Also, the sled must be kept fairly long in order to keep the overall weight low enough to not kill the operator, therefore to achieve any mid-level boom moves, the rig must be sideways, which is not only a new skill set, it also requires a lot of horizontal space.

Basically what it comes down to is this - it's the only system for the 1 time in 1200 where the shot cannot be done any other way. For the other 1199 times, the traditional style steadicam is a much quicker, easier and more versatile tool. When unfamiliar people think of steadicam, they often picture the broad strokes roundy-rounds, running shots, or crazy flashy moves. But the real reason why Steadicam has become so widespread is because of its accuracy. The very direct relationship between the camera and the operator means that with a good setup and skills, you can make repeatable subtle moves. AR takes out a lot of that connection, meaning that you can make broad-strokes, booms from floor to ceiling, but not necessarily the delicate nuanced moves that are the hallmarks of top-level operating, if for no other reason than space constraints. They exist, they are used on actual productions, but the initial hype of "this is the new wave of steadicam" has largely passed, and it's been calmed down to "another tool in the arsenal" for those who have pockets deep enough to own it.

I believe Howard is on this forum, and can answer any specific questions from a manufacturers perspective. Also, there's currently a few for sale used - here's one
http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7289

[Jason Ing]

Thanks, Jaron. That was really, really helpful. I would want to preserve nuance.

[JFirestone]

You get what you pay for, eh?

Generally I agree with you Jeff, but then again the RED ONE is definitely an acception to this rule.

[Brian Broz]

You will be able to get a RED on a Steadicam Flyer easily...
Having said that, you will need to have a lightweight configuration...camera, 18-50 Lens, Clip On Mattebox (LMB5). No rods, side handles, LCD, EVF, RED Drive or Battery. But do you really need those pieces on a Steadicam?
Run the Power through the Flyer's V-Lock or AB Mount to the camera, record to CF and away you go. The only issue I can think of is the Flyer's LCD Monitor which is low res (barely SD) and would need a downconverter or some type of modification to re-locate the RED LCD (or a secondary one).
We've rented cameras like the SDX900/HDX900 and Sony F730 HDCAM with a 11x4.7 Canon HD lens on the Flyer which pushes 18 lbs. (running the camera off an AntonBauer Dionic90) on shows for Discovery and no complaints from the client.
Sure an Archer or more expensive system would be better, but a stripped down RED is perfectly do-able IMHO.
Hope that helps,

BB

[Stephen Pruitt]

I am one of the lucky folks who got in on the Actioncam group buy. I am REALLY looking forward to that unit arriving later this month.

:-)

It is actually possible that my RED, the Birger/Canon mount, the Actioncam, and my new head/tripod will all arrive within a week or two of each other.

And, trust me, I'll then be completely broke.

:-(

Stephen

[Jaron Berman]

Well the flyer is not really possible if you want to do the full frame size with anything except the birger mount. You do need some kind of rod, only 1 though, to mount your focus motor. As demonstrated in the LART footage, wireless focus isn't really optional. This means you also need at least 1 of the RED rod adapters. Also, whatever focus system you have will include some kind of receiver/amplifier, which should be mounted up near the motor to keep that cable nice and short. Plus, you'll need a downconverter, or you'd otherwise need to recable the BNC jack to carry a full HD-SDI signal, and then you'd need the HD monitor. In this configuration, you'll be slightly above 15lbs payload. Also, it'll be silent, as you won't have the ability to fly any kind of sound gear. Not a problem if you're used to film, big problem if you're used to video.

Over the course of the RED's development, it grew significantly from the originally proposed DVX replacement. I know a lot of people have not realized, but it's now a real camera, more akin to an F900 in terms of weight. Stripped, you may be able to get it to about 20lbs for steadicam, but not a whole lot lighter. It's too bad, because that Flyer arm is amazing, and side-by-side with any other small stabilizer, the flyer will absolutely outclass anything. But careful - if you buy a flyer, and expect to fly the RED in all situations, you'll be in for a shock (and possible loss of job) when you're asked to fly an accessory that puts you over the weight limit. If the dp shows up with S4's, you'll have a hard time convincing him/her that you should fly the RED lens instead. Great stabilizer, a bit too small for the RED. The last thing you want to do is book a job under the presumption that you're a steadicam operator, only to have to turn down a significant number of shots due to equipment limitations. Ruining your reputation is VERY bad business...

[Scott Mason]

Well said Jason. Very informative post.

[Priyesh P.]

The AR adds some other problems, too. It's technically much more complex than a "normal" rig which for itself is a highest precision device. That's one of the shortcomings of the Basson stuff - I mean, it doesn't need more than a quick look to see it's cheapish nature (yellow? and what's this overblown lower sled for?).
The AR, btw, needs a heap of electronics, sensors and motors to work, so lots of things that may fail under certain conditions or just wear out.

[siniarch]

Vincelucero,
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. this thing is supposed to e-mail me, but not e-mail so far.

I use it with my HVX. I've flow in with HVX, RedRock M2 & Follow focus. Can't wait for Redrock to come up with their Remote FF. this was just so I could set up the focus fast between shots.

I put my monitor on the bottom of the sled. (the Carrion)

One thing I hate is the bottom of the sled that it came with sucks so it was very had to achieve dynamic balance. I've modified it to have a rail system instead, and now I'm able to slide the monitor and batteries & Hard Drive (fs-100) I just did this mod, so I haven't had the time to test the setup yet.

For the price there is nothing out there that handles this kind of weight. But of course, you get what you pay for. Its a good starter rig IMHO.
I had a pro review it for me and let me know the drawbacks. For the price he was surprised that the gimble was pretty good. (still had some drag) He also pointed some drawbacks like the sled, and some other mods that will make it a better unit.

He also mentioned that in no way did it compare to his 20k rig, but then again I only spend $2200 at the time I bought it.

But if you are getting a red, why not add to the debt by getting an action cam, or a real steadicam.

Hope that helps.

[vincelucero]

Thanks Siniarch. We have that same HVX setup but with RED here it's been happily shelved. I fall in love with our footage each time we review the dailies. Especially the dynamic range.

And I know what you mean by just "add to the debt." haha. The spending never stops does it??? Just wait till NAB. My wife's gonna kill me.

[siniarch]

Hey Vince,
I think I'm going to NAB also maybe we should meet up.

[Ben Goldenberg]

I agree about the raised price of the actioncams. I am probably one of the poorest people buying RED, and it seems that by waiting to spend my money carefully I missed out on the group buy and the 2500 incentive from RED. It would really be nice if these companies realized that these deals only help the people who can afford the normal price. I cannot warrant paying ten grand for a steadicam rig that I have nor tried. And after nab, once I have tried it I will feel extremely silly paying 2 grand more due to the exchange rate.

[Jason Ing]

I was told there may be a demo of the red actioncam version late February or March. I am assuming it will in Los Angeles. $11k might be a tad too much... too bad. It matters when you're on this kind of budget. I thought that if I could forego the production pack, maybe that would help but you need it for the actioncam too. I might have squeezed by with 9k as that was about my tripod budget. If push comes to shove, I would rather have an actioncam/steadicam then a tripod. Crazy? :)

[Nicholas Warren]

In the UK there is a company called Float Cam that do a rig for a reasonable price (about £3500) that should be okay for a reasonable RED rig (takes up to 12kg (26.46Ib's). I saw them at broadcast live video forum and it looked like a well built piece of kit.
http://www.floatcam.co.uk/floatcam-fc12.htm
What do people think?

[Jason Ing]

i wonder if they'll be at NAB.

[michael zaletel]

Curious if anyone has seen any new steadicam solutions tailored for the Red at NAB 2008?

-shooter

[Jason Ing]

Not tailored specifically for Red, but I tried out a "new" (to me) Sachtler steady system. Very nice. 30k+

[Stephen Pruitt]

For what it is worth, guys, the RED edition Actioncam (which I proudly own) is, hands down, the most beautiful machine I've ever seen. The attention to detail is extraordinary. Everyone who has seen it has just been blown away.

Stephen

[Chosei Funahara]

I am modifying my flyer and archer for RED ONE's electric circuits and new monitor.
It takes a month to complete and waiting a part.
Flyer works with striped version (no matt box, no heavy zoom, no battery, no railing and just CF card) feed from bottom.
Archer is pretty comfortable to fly RED ONE.

[Floatcam UK]

Hi

Adam here from Floatcam in the UK (www.floatcam.co.uk). Someone mentioned the FC12 on this forum as a possible contender for flying a RED camera. I have not had the opportunity to fly the red yet, as they are a little thin on the ground in the UK so far.

But that said, the FC12 will fly a fully laden DigiBeta, HDcam, Varicam etc without issue, so it stands to reason that a modestly spec'd RED should fly on it....

The FC12 is a 12v system, so the RED brick batteries can be used on the sled, or alternatively V-lock or AB mount batteries. One battery would be required to power the sled and camera, and ideally any accessories such as an LCS or transmitter would be daisychained from the camera power out as the FC12 does not currently have additional 12v ports on the top stage.

It will fly up to 12kg, so a RED with a Zeiss super speed, clip on MB, lightweight LCS (viewfactor?) and transmitter, ideally recording to CF cards, would come in under that weight. The only concern i would have is the FC12 is an SD composite system, so requires an SD comp or VBS signal out of the camera...

Sadly we are not going to be at NAB this year, as we are still developing our core business in the UK and Europe.

If anyone has any questions, or needs any more info, or fancies arranging a demo (in the UK...), let me know!

Cheers

Adam

Since i wrote this post i have had a RED with 18-55 zoom up on the FC12 with no problems. Need to get some custom power cables made up though...