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View Full Version : Dragon will actually be higher res than Sony's "8k" F65



Justin O'Neill
07-19-2012, 04:48 PM
It turns out RED's 6k Dragon sensor will actually be HIGHER resolution than Sony's F65 "8k" sensor. How is this possible?? I detailed here (http://camerarentalz.com/sony-f65-6k-sensor/) how Sony uses a whacky method of counting pixels to claim their F65 has an 8k sensor. If you calculate the F65 sensor's resolution like you would with any other camera, it comes out to 5782 x 3060. Remember that number.

When RED announced their 6k Dragon sensor they didn't give the exact resolution but a couple posts in the reduser forums (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77169-Dragon&p=986881&highlight=#post986881) give us enough info to figure it out. The sensor will be 30mm x 15.8mm with a pixel size of 5 microns. Do the math and we can deduce that Dragon will be 6,000 x 3,160. That is 1.3 million photosites MORE than the F65's supposed 8k sensor! RED has always advertised the active sensor area of their cameras and there is no reason to assume it will be any different this time.

It's no wonder RED has so many fans when for $6k we can upgrade our cameras and have the highest res motion camera in the world again.

Michael Ou
07-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Wow, very interesting read, thanks for posting!!!

BRANDON JAMESON
07-19-2012, 05:00 PM
Bravo, Justin!!!!

Nick Morrison
07-19-2012, 05:01 PM
Nice! Somehow it doesn't feel right if RED isn't the highest rez camera out there!

Good to know the universe is re-aligning itself --> at a price mortals can afford.

luigivaltulini
07-19-2012, 05:09 PM
Thanks Justin :)

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
07-19-2012, 06:01 PM
I thought I saw a F65 floating around in the sale market on this forum LOL

I've talked to a prep-tech at Pananvision, apparently the workflow is hideous and you need a separate device to dump media and playback?

He really didn't spell out the workflow but he said it's a headache, I should probably hit him up again since its been a minute. Please fill us in if you have experience with one I'm curious for inputs from a shooter.

Anyways glad to hear that. I kinda wish Red had a non-official rumors site LOL we really have no clue what they're up to.

Been watching all the Batmans getting ready for tmrws release. I really hope I get to see Red IMAX in my lifetime, s35mm is cool and all but the way the lens shapes an image on a 70mm film negative just looks so much sharper and natural; especially on the wide shots. Only problem is there isn't much 65mm glass which is a huge drag, I couldn't imagine pulling focus with a Mamiya lens but we said the same for DSLR ha. Maybe I should start collecting medium format lenses before Red IMAX raises the price much like the crappy Arri Zeiss baby primes lens, you could get a set for $9k before R1...after 2010 I saw them going for $22k +

with so much content being produced on 5D it seems like S35 has become the new 2/3. Its funny to hear older DP complain about MkII sensor sizes with lens and young up and comers complaining about S35. Its just weird the days we live in. I mean look at the Fuji PL lens with ENG grip/motor (http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/optical_devices/digital-film-cinema/pl-mount/19-90/index.html) at NAB 2012.

up to what point is S35 gonna have enough resolution I'd imagine 8k is the most you'd need for minute, certain scenes from the Dark Knight IMAX was scanned at 8K & 6K (http://www.theasc.com/ac_magazine/July2008/TheDarkKnight/page5.php) , keep in mind that was 2008, four years ago.

After awhile you can start to see the difference from 4K to 5K I wonder how it's gonna be for 6K

Honestly I still think no Digital Format can surpass IMAX, once that's done I can officially stick a tombstone on Films grave.

Dragon I'd like to see you take a shot

Pawel Achtel
07-19-2012, 06:02 PM
Always fascinated with reasearch on the elusive bullshit particle and you certainly managed to uncover it pretty well.

Timur Civan
07-19-2012, 06:05 PM
Math. For the Win.

Justin O'Neill
07-19-2012, 06:12 PM
Please fill us in if you have experience with one I'm curious for inputs from a shooter.

I really hope I get to see Red IMAX in my lifetime, s35mm is cool and all but the way the lens shapes an image on a 70mm film negative just looks so much sharper and natural; especially on the wide shots.


Hi Cid, I haven't used the F65 yet but I would certainly rather shoot with it than the Alexa!

RED still has the 9k medium format 645 epic and the 28k large format 617 Epic in the pipeline as far as we know. http://camerarentalz.com/epic-645/

Blair S. Paulsen
07-19-2012, 06:20 PM
(snip) Maybe I should start collecting medium format lenses before Red IMAX raises the price much like the crappy Arri Zeiss baby primes lens, you could get a set for $9k before R1...after 2010 I saw them going for $22k +


If you are talking about the Arri standards I'm going to have to take issue with your "crappy" characterization. They are not personal favorites of mine, but I respect their IQ. They may be notch below the newest designs/coatings but they are still genuine cinema lenses that have been used on some very striking films.

Cheers - #19

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
07-19-2012, 06:25 PM
Hi Cid, I haven't used the F65 yet but I would certainly rather shoot with it than the Alexa!

RED still has the 9k medium format 645 epic and the 28k large format 617 Epic in the pipeline as far as we know. http://camerarentalz.com/epic-645/

OMG 65MP

sorry for the techie hard-on LOL

Red showed us their check list years ago and never brought it out again.

They seem to be on track....somewhat

I was really expecting a FF35 Dragon announcement in order to slam dunk in front of Canon especially since they have a toy 8-Bit 4K DSLR.

But then again I was expecting a 2/3 & S35 Scarlet Nov. 3

I love my Scarlet but the only thing it lags is FrameRates pleazzeeee!

Justin O'Neill
07-19-2012, 06:29 PM
Monstro refers to all of the RED sensors above S35mm...somebody asked Jim at NAB 2012 if they were still working on Monstro and he said yes. :-)

PatrickFaith
07-19-2012, 06:33 PM
To me ... the beyond super cool thing is RED is posed to be the best Photography Camera when they get the pixels up a bit, and all ready is the best Cinema camera. It's a whole new way of thinking about things, since for the last 100 years photography and cinematography required separate camera's ... trying to remember RED's word for that.

Blair S. Paulsen
07-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Whatever the photo site count, my benchmark is what the system can actually resolve in the finished image - both luma and chroma. Moreover, I believe in the advantages of oversampling and greater MTF in middle frequency detail - the values for which can be predicted to some degree by physical photo site quantity, but ultimately it comes down to what makes it into the image.

Cheers - #19

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
07-19-2012, 06:35 PM
If you are talking about the Arri standards I'm going to have to take issue with your "crappy" characterization. They are not personal favorites of mine, but I respect their IQ. They may be notch below the newest designs/coatings but they are still genuine cinema lenses that have been used on some very striking films.

Cheers - #19

Sorry for being a lens snobb, I don't mean to insult anyone who has those lenses.

It's great glass compared to DSLR lens or CP2, it's just all the indi features I've worked on got those lens and they've never been kept up to date maintenance wise and they've been nothing but trouble for my 1stAC, but that was mainly my experience in Austin. Maybe in the '80s when they came out it was different world, I mean they still say "Made In West Germany"

Out here in LA I've yet to work with them, it's been Panavision or Optimos for the most part.

Again I don't want to insult its just you get use to a standard and thats how I see it.

You work with what you have and so be it at the end of the day a good film comes down to story but as DP's we try our best to control the little details to enhance the audience reaction through our tools and style. I have my personal preference and opinions through experience, yours maybe different it's all good.

Justin O'Neill
07-19-2012, 06:36 PM
To me ... the beyond super cool thing is RED is posed to be the best Photography Camera when they get the pixels up a bit, and all ready is the best Cinema camera.

Exactly! Those of us using it as a true motion/stills camera definitely need more than 4K or 5K resolution.

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
07-19-2012, 06:38 PM
Monstro refers to all of the RED sensors above S35mm...somebody asked Jim at NAB 2012 if they were still working on Monstro and he said yes. :-)

Totally Made My Day

That guy Jim always has something up his sleeve

Nick Morrison
07-19-2012, 06:57 PM
Better start buying your Hasselblad lenses now.....(I already own 2).

Blair S. Paulsen
07-19-2012, 07:14 PM
Sorry for being a lens snobb, I don't mean to insult anyone who has those lenses.
It's great glass compared to DSLR lens or CP2, it's just all the indi features I've worked on got those lens and they've never been kept up to date maintenance wise and they've been nothing but trouble for my 1stAC (snip) I have my personal preference and opinions through experience, yours maybe different it's all good.

I am not a Arri standards fan personally, nor am I insulted. That said, Evin Grant who is most certainly a lens snob, makes a compelling case for the standards and has proved it to me with actual images taken with well maintained samples. In any case, if you actually care about my taste in lenses, the new Leica "C"s are spectacular. If you disagree with that, then we can throw down ;-).

Good shooting.

Cheers - #19

Nick Morrison
07-19-2012, 07:51 PM
Maybe I should start collecting medium format lenses before Red IMAX raises the price much like the crappy Arri Zeiss baby primes lens, you could get a set for $9k before R1...after 2010 I saw them going for $22k +

Hey Cid, what are "Arri Zeiss Baby Primes"? Are those MK1 Super Speeds? MK2 or MK3s? Or Standard Speeds? Or something else? Just curious. Thx

Kevin Marshall
07-19-2012, 07:56 PM
I work with Zeiss Standards a lot - I don't mind them much at all...though the DP that I work for that has them keeps them pretty nice. They porthole a bit on the Epic on the wide end till about T4 or so, and they're not as fast as modern glass, but they certainly hold up. Definitely more a fan of his Super Baltars and Leica-Rs, though...

Back on topic...it's funny how some of the same people that would get on my case about Red's pixel counting were the first to boast to me about Sony's "8K." I'd like to see it on Graeme's zone plates of death...

Justin O'Neill
07-19-2012, 08:19 PM
Back on topic...it's funny how some of the same people that would get on my case about Red's pixel counting were the first to boast to me about Sony's "8K." I'd like to see it on Graeme's zone plates of death...

5.8k should be plenty for a nice 4k debayer so I expect it will hold up pretty well. Being that it only records 4k anyways it is mind boggeling why Sony thought it would be beneficial to claim the sensor is 8k. There have been rumors they will enable higher res record modes...definitely won't be 8k though, that up-rezing would look ghastly!

Jacek Zakowicz
07-19-2012, 09:11 PM
yep, uprezzing to 8K would definitely look ghastly:laugh:

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
07-19-2012, 10:54 PM
I am not a Arri standards fan personally, nor am I insulted. That said, Evin Grant who is most certainly a lens snob, makes a compelling case for the standards and has proved it to me with actual images taken with well maintained samples. In any case, if you actually care about my taste in lenses, the new Leica "C"s are spectacular. If you disagree with that, then we can throw down ;-).

Good shooting.

Cheers - #19

the zeiss is great glass it's just by this point in time when I started to get my hands on them you can tell it was damaged goods. Standard Primes and MkI &MkII it depended on the shoot sometimes we got mixs with even different labeling some had Metric some had Imperial LOL

who can argue with the leica summilux c

doesn't Tom Lowe shoot with them?

:drool5:

skin tones, contrast and sharpness are on point

it's a solid look

but i have to bow down to the the Pani 11:1 and the PCZ of course they are zooms but I would live on those all day if I could.

I'm curious to see Pani's new Digi line of Cameras and Lens, from what I've heard they have a new 2/3, S35, and IMAX Digi cams with specific lens and follow focus which is Primo. But you'll never be able to own it LOL. Since the follow focus is in the back with the weight of the camera you're never working against the operator on pans and mad focus wracks. The pull momentum is with the core of the body. It's by far a great design beats any Arri FF or 3rd Party unit.

Optimo has def made a come back I see allot of their glass on shoots. Have you seen the two new zooms!! They can go between PL and PV mount. they are beastly babies though.
the 17-80 is gonna be the next best thing and its a 2.2 wooop wooop

William Kamp
07-25-2012, 02:46 AM
You should take a look at this article as well. Its a great counter point to the 6k 5 micron dragon sensor. Its a great read.

http://info.adimec.com/blogposts/bid/68684/Can-small-pixel-CMOS-image-sensors-be-useful-in-Machine-Vision

Also, to counter some points about F65 workflow, lets remember when RED was (and still can be) quite tedious in post. Its no P2, DVCPRO, SRMASTER or XDCAM.

Will