Question re: $$ Processing Footage and Clients

[Brian Broz]

Ok,
So those shooting with Red on bigger budget shoots will most likely hand over backed up files for post production to manipulate/color/edit/lay back to film. Pretty simple.
My question is...how do Red owner/operators who are (or plan to be) working the camera on "traditional" video shoots (ie DVW700/HDX900/XDCAMHD) docs and interviews plan to handle footage with the client?
I realize in the "video world" everyone expects a tape or disc at the end of the day. More producers are reluctant but are starting to accept drives at the end of the day.
Basically I'm wondering if owner operators plan to handle this?After a 10-12hr shoot day will you render out the files to their own "look" in addition to giving the client the raw and qt filtes the camera generates (the day after)? Or hand over the files the camera generates at the end of the day (along with an invoice)?
It seems there is a lot of margin for error with Redcine and Redalert for inexperienced users, but will clients resist charging extra to "preserve your look".
Just wondering if anyone has worked in these (i think common) situations and has any experiences to share.
It would be much appreciated.
Cheers,


BB

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I plan to off-load while shooting to redundant hard drives (RAID-1). If the client wants a drive containing the footage at the end of the shoot, I will also have the offload system copy to one more external HDD, which I will hand over and include the latest versions of RED Alart! and REDCINE on the drive.

Or I can process the footage into whatever format they want and deliver within the next 1 to 3 days or so. Once RED becomes a bit more established and people wrap their brains around the benefits of a RAW workflow, these producers are going to want the R3D files handed to them to turn over to their editors or post people.

Other options, if they really want to get down and dirty and fast is shoot to CF cards without offloading and hand over the cards at the end of the shoot. Or shoot to RED drive and hand that over. The client just gets billed for the cards or drives. Or have them pay a "media deposit" that is refundable when they return the media to you. Make it easy, give them a box and pre-paid shipping label.

Shooting RED isn't a whole lot different (in therms of delivery footage) than shooting with the HVX200 or other P2 based camera system. You have to offload cards or have a system to hand over cards and retrieve them. The only real difference is the current situation with editing and R3D support on the back-end. For now, it's an opportunity to charge a bit extra if they want you to process the footage rather than simply handing it over.

You have to sell them on the quality of using 4K, 3K, RAW, etc.. If they don't want to pay a little extra for that and potentially have a longer wait time, that's fine too. The 2K proxies (not even the new _F quality ones that I haven't seen), make better HD footage than anything you're going to shoot with an HVX or similar range camera.

[Brian Broz]

Appreciate the comments Jeff. I have worked a fair bit with P2 (on the sales and production side :-) and totally agree with your comments.
If the quality of the quicktime movies the camera generates is as good or better than most sub-$10,000 cameras (with 35mm DOF and excellent latitude) then that may fit the bill for some shoots and/or those productions that aren't as post intensive. And I'm sure the quality of these QT files will improve.
I don't know if it's the same in the US, but higher end video shoots/docs here are still tape-based. Especially multi-camera productions. Most of the higher end freelancers don't have a laptop or bring one to shoots.
Commercials, dramas, series ar of course a different story, as someone is usually on set to handle this .

[Rich Schaefer]

I have 8 Red-drives, I plan to give them to many of my clients at the end of the day. They can have them for free for 48 hours to off-load & back-up in the sanity of the edit bay. After 48 hours $100 each /day. I have 8 so I will need them back in 3-4 days-ish.

I also have 8 CF cards. If we need to shoot on these (high vibration) we need to do on-set off-loads and back ups.

Good thread, I am curious to see what others will do?

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have 8 Red-drives, I plan to give them to many of my clients at the end of the day. They can have them for free for 48 hours to off-load & back-up in the sanity of the edit bay. After 48 hours $100 each /day. I have 8 so I will need them back in 3-4 days-ish.

I also have 8 CF cards. If we need to shoot on these (high vibration) we need to do on-set off-loads and back ups.

Good thread, I am curious to see what others will do?

My 2 cents.

Don't give clients RED DRIVES. Offload to FW drives. Much cheaper. And do you really want clients handling a recording drive? I sure as hell do not. They are rugged. But they are still a raid - and can be damaged if mis-handled - and you can not supervise your clients habits ... CUT TO: can of coke on top of REDDRIVE ....

Just sayin ... I think that is nuts.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It seems there is a lot of margin for error with Redcine and Redalert for inexperienced users

you need to provide the service and support to do it correctly or refer your client to someone, or some company that can.

[johannperry]

With the ease of copying files I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on retaining copyright on their images in the way that many photographers do. Are current users keeping copies of their work for their own personal archives or just assuming that at the end of a shoot you hand over your rushes to the producer and that is the last you see of them. There will obviously be huge differences here between Drama, Commercial or Documentary projects but having some ultimate ownership over your images would be worth working towards.

[Laco Zamba]

Hi Jeff,

are you sure that we can copy RED Alart! and REDCINE to our customers?


... and include the latest versions of RED Alart! and REDCINE on the drive.

[Brent J. Craig]

...do you really want clients handling a recording drive? I sure as hell do not. They are rugged. But they are still a raid - and can be damaged if mis-handled...

I have been thinking of putting those stick-on 'rough handling sensors' on drives. You can get them so they change color after being subjected to a certain number of G's. The idea would be that if a drive is returned with the shock sensor activated, the clients have just bought themselves a drive.

[Brent J. Craig]

With the ease of copying files I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on retaining copyright on their images in the way that many photographers do.

...having some ultimate ownership over your images would be worth working towards.

Ownership of copyright has NOTHING to do with who is in posession of the files or media. Copyright is a legal issue that needs to be addressed in the contract you have with your production.

Typically most film/video production is done on a 'work for hire' basis where the production/producers completely own the rights to the work you do for them. You can usually negotiate rights to use the material on your reel but that's about it.

If you expect to retain any rights over what you shoot you have to spell out the terms very clearly in advance.

[Jim McKinney]

With the ease of copying files I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on retaining copyright on their images in the way that many photographers do. Are current users keeping copies of their work for their own personal archives or just assuming that at the end of a shoot you hand over your rushes to the producer and that is the last you see of them. There will obviously be huge differences here between Drama, Commercial or Documentary projects but having some ultimate ownership over your images would be worth working towards.

Johann, you might want to start this on its own thread.

[Jim McKinney]

I have been thinking of putting those stick-on 'rough handling sensors' on drives. You can get them so they change color after being subjected to a certain number of G's. The idea would be that if a drive is returned with the shock sensor activated, the clients have just bought themselves a drive.

I will not give my clients the Red Drive. They get it on a 3rd party external hard drive.

[Brent J. Craig]

I will not give my clients the Red Drive. They get it on a 3rd party external hard drive.

But still, if they have dropped it down the stairs of their production office, you're gonna want to know that before you use it for your next client.

[Keith Neff]

We have also been tossing around the backup problems since P2. We have been dropping the P2 to video tape for our/the clients protection. Not so easy with 4K files.
If they don't want to pay for backup, we have considered having them sign a release stating that they understand that the only place that the materials exist is the drive they are taking and drives do fail etc. Otherwise I can see completing a multi-day shoot and having the client come back an say after he threw the drive in his trunk and drove around for a couple of weeks, he can't get the data off it and it's our fault.
Things just get more complex don't they?

[Brian Broz]

Glad this thread has continued with some good points.
External drives in Pelican cases is a must IMHO. I think most producers want to take some type of backup at the end of the day.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hi Jeff,

are you sure that we can copy RED Alart! and REDCINE to our customers?

Well, they could go to red.com and download it themselves... They're freely available.

But like Brian Broz and offhollywood mentioned above, there's a lot of room for error when using these softwares. So processing footage should be a service you provide your client or you direct them to someone that can provide this service. If you let the footage out of your hands without handling or having a say in how it's processed, how can you guaranty any level of quality?

I think that until REDCODE becomes a much more established and familiar standard in the industry, it's best that R3D files are not just haphazardly handed over. But once again, business doesn't always flow that way... Some jobs will still work out where the producer has to have that footage at the end of the shoot so he can give it to whoever... Never mind that whoever still has to process it and may or may not know what they're doing.

[Rich Schaefer]

My 2 cents.

Don't give clients RED DRIVES. Offload to FW drives. Much cheaper. And do you really want clients handling a recording drive? I sure as hell do not. They are rugged. But they are still a raid - and can be damaged if mis-handled - and you can not supervise your clients habits ... CUT TO: can of coke on top of REDDRIVE ....

Just sayin ... I think that is nuts.

I can see your point! ...but, I shoot usually 4-6 days a week on 1-3 jobs. I bairly have any time to sleep. I am not going to spend hours offloading or converting footage without lots of $$$$$$$$ for that precious time.

My drives will all have individual hard cases. These drives are rentals, if they break it they have to repair/ buy it. But, seeing as how my clients only copy of the footage is on those drives, I feel confident they will be treated with respect - and no Coke cans. They have a lot more money invested in that drive than I do!

I go back to origional point, that I do not want someone who is not freaking out on a shoot to off load footage. I prefer an experienced edit person to do it in the sanity of the edit bay!

The most nerve racking part of shooting RED for me is "OK to REFORMAT?"

[Mark L. Pederson]

I go back to origional point, that I do not want someone who is not freaking out on a shoot to off load footage. I prefer an experienced edit person to do it in the sanity of the edit bay!

The most nerve racking part of shooting RED for me is "OK to REFORMAT?"

Well ... one day ... one of your REDDRIVEs will fail. It is a fact.
All drives fail.
Raid 1 sets fail more often.
So ... if you were NOT offloading (cloning) in the field - you will be very sorry - as Murphy's Law dictates it will happen in the last hour of the day.

There are many ways to do it painlessly. Please clone your media in the field. If you clone while you shoot - hot swapping REDDRIVES through-out the day - you will not even feel it.

[Rich Schaefer]

Mark, I respectfully disagree an agree. You are right, I will be replacing drives. It's a cost of doing business.

I don't agree you have to down load media in the field. When the hard drive are ejected, powered down, put in cases and transported with out power, they will survive the average drive home. I would clone before travel!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, I respectfully disagree an agree. You are right, I will be replacing drives. It's a cost of doing business.

I don't agree you have to down load media in the field. When the hard drive are ejected, powered down, put in cases and transported with out power, they will survive the average drive home. I would clone before travel!

Fair enough richcam1 -

My point is a $900 REDDRIVE vs. a $149 FW800 drive. You are cloning and verifying your media anyway, right???

But, my biggest issue is that I am just NOT comfortable with RECORDING DRIVES for our cameras out of our hands. When we shoot film, we put the neg in a can and send it to the lab and put the mag back in the case. We don't send the mag off to the lab. I understand when shooting tape - you rarely clone in the field - so, I understand your desire to "treat it like tape" - but it is just so simple to clone digital media I can't understand not doing it.

My 2 cents.

[David Birdy]

Great Points Mark,

Anyone Not cloning in the field is playing with fire. Firewire or LTO seem to be the way to go. The Solid state memory is another option, but would also need to be cloned as this type of memory's cost is still very high.

It's always a good idea to have a "safety master" ! Also get bonded by an insurance agent....just in case!

Dave

[Rich Schaefer]

I have heard of shows that send the CF cards all the way to post.

I still think if you are shooting locally, you are safe to send home the RedDrives. I will send mine in foam pelican cases. And they are not powered up so the heads are parked (after all they are laptop hard-drives). They will be treated as the masters, I see no problem with it.

I do agree, it you have someone who is rock-solid who can do it on set then do it! (cloning to 2 different brands....)

[Mark Mannschreck]

It sure is nice to eject the RedDrive at the end of an 18 hour day and hand it over to the director though! I think it makes them feel better too having the Red branded drive right off the camera. I guess I could see swapping the drive out Midday and start offloading... but then you still have to do the second drive at the end of the day - nobody wants to stick around for that wait (ME!)

[David Wyatt]

Richcam 1, you've gone to town on the ol' Red Drives...I hope they gave you a healthy discount :wink:. That's a great solution if you can trust 3rd parties with your drives (I'll never forget on a film shoot watching a runner slam his hatchback's boot shut and splitting the rushes in a non-traditional way :wacko:)
It goes without saying that anyone simply giving a client a separate, non-RedDrive hard-drive should run some kind of a file-verification/check sum before they go wiping their RedDrive for the next job :biggrin:

[Rich Schaefer]

Great thoughts everyone, but:

Back to the original question in the thread: What would you charge to convert footage? Let's say 2 hours of running time and it took your machine with RedCine 10 hours to render it out to HD of some sort?

How much $$ ya thinking????

[Finner]

Rich I have thought about this one over the last little while and think a person would be best charging a running time footage cost and not a render hour charge. Some owners will have cheaper slower computers and some will have invested in faster machines with render farms so I see a per minute footage charge. I had thought around $1.50-$2.00 a minute would be a number producers would handle fairly well. Start to get above that and producers may start talking film on ya.

[Brent J. Craig]

People around here are talking much higher rates, at least for now while it is a manual, slow process.

[Rich Schaefer]

Hey Finner, So about $90 to $120 per hour. That seems good to me. I think your right any more and producers will have issues.

PS what's up with bringing out the old avatar? Has Jim said anything?

Others what are u thinking about charging?

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

nice request Finner .REALLY :greedy: