APPLE - no love for it's "RED" headed step child!

[Finner]

So NAB 2007 Apple announces at their Sunday kick off how they are the go to option for a RED workflow. Throughout the show apple continues to push how on board and friendly they will be offering huge support for red projects. Lets now look a today almost a year later, I have seen nothing new out of apple since NAB 2007 in way of red support. Instead what I see is red owners begging red to help them with their 64hr render issues and running into post hours that are 5-10 times longer then any other film/HD option. A small outside company write a few command lines to allow PC use and render and work times with PC systems turn out to be 3 times or more faster then the apple option that has a huge staff and full cooperation with red. Then red squashes that option, why? It's not like apple is doing a whole lot to improve the red workflow so why not open the doors for PC options?

I have been an apple supporter for a long time now but all this is making start to question that decision. Apple should be way further along then they are right now as far as FCP/RED workflow goes. Maybe red made a mistake and should have teamed with AVID because apple really does not seem to care.

Jim has shown that he listens to our concerns when as a collective us redusers let him know we are dissatisfied with something. I believe if we all show red how concerned we are with this problem it may spur red on to look at getting apple to step it up or at least open up doors wider to avid or some other company that will start to address some of the red owners needs.

Speak loud and back this up guys. Even if you are a camera guy that just passes the footage on to the post house/clients they will need good post options or they will not choose you and your red camera.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Slow down!

You are jumping to INCORRECT assumptions.

Take a deep breath.

It's gonna be just fine.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have some similar questions / concerns too. In the ordeal with the Cineform conversion tool, some exclusive agreements were mentioned. So I understand there has been something in place between Apple and RED, but who knows what that is. Jim said that we will eventually have a final version of the R3D REDCODE format that will be documented with hooks and there has been other mention of an SDK. Eventual multi-platform support is on the horizon -- I'm going to reserve judgement on the issue of other platforms until NAB. I can make do with the current situation and my MacBook Pro as R3D workstation until then <ouch>.

My primary questions now are that of current Apple workflow... RED has released their R3D components for QT and FCP. OK. But we haven't seen anything from Apple in the public eye... No expansion of support for higher resolutions within FCS2. No outwardly visible effort to address QT gamma issues (this is a long-standing problem though), new QT 7.4.x releases break the RED workflow, Apple is apparently not supplying test hardware for RED... Rob said he will do tests on the new 8800GT video card this week as he should get his new Mac Pro that he bought then.

So is there any real substance to the RED <-> Apple relationship or was it just a "we'll rub yours if you rub ours" arrangement so they could kick ass at NAB '07?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's gonna be just fine.

I hope the Offhollywood spy network is working overtime and you're right! :)

Seriously though, RED has said the Apple workflow is coming first and I have no reason to doubt that. I'm just confused as to what Apple is actually doing to help them along? QT 7.4 <cough>

[rod bradley]

Mark, I agree with the take a deep breath -- and keeping it all in perspective and appreciating the miraculously fast development of the Red, both camera and post.

But do you have some insight you can share into when it's going to be just fine for people who don't have unlimited resources to throw in post, etc. And when do you think it might become just fine for those who can't afford Scratch? I know you've been in the Red mix for longer than most and have a lot of experience and insight into the whole process. I have had several potential Red shoots that are wavering because of what are perceived and/or perhaps actual workflow issues. I'm not versed and hear a lot of conflicting reports.

Any insights from you most helpful. Thanks.

[Finner]

Hi Mark

I'm slow, I'm calm. It's just when my clients have to do 4 days of work just to get red footage in place to edit I start to get concerned. I completely know it will be just fine. It's just starting to look like it will be better with some other player then apple.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I hope the Offhollywood spy network is working overtime and you're right! :)

Seriously though, RED has said the Apple workflow is coming first and I have no reason to doubt that. I'm just confused as to what Apple is actually doing to help them along? QT 7.4 <cough>

We are in this DEEP. We are testing lots of stuff for several companies outside of Red. Apple is just one.

I can tell you this - I have ZERO concerns about efficient workflows on PC or MAC for RED.

I have HUGE issues with Quicktime. But Quicktime is not the solution for everything.

[Michael Schrengohst]

This is why we have not shot any projects with RED yet. The post
is just too much. We usually do longer form docs and industrials.
My clients and I have experimented with RED footage and determined
it was not cost effective from a time standpoint yet.

[C.H.Haskell]

I feel this apple storm is simply rumors. I think the RED team and apple took on a little more then they could bite into and are playing catch up...jim has been pretty upfront about that. So having said that...cheers! (raising goblet)..to playing catch up!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hi Mark

I'm slow, I'm calm. It's just when my clients have to do 4 days of work just to get red footage in place to edit I start to get concerned. I completely know it will be just fine. It's just starting to look like it will be better with some other player then apple.

Finner -

This is bleeding edge stuff. You need to use THE BEST TOOLS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME to do what your clients need.

I can tell you this - a single platform post environment is almost NEVER the right answer. Red or no Red.

[Finner]

Whoever gets the first real red friendly post option that works well and is not exclusively expensive will be the big winner here. All I am saying is I use to think that would be apple but the way apple has handled things it is starting to look like an option other then apple may be the better choice.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Finner -

This is bleeding edge stuff. You need to use THE BEST TOOLS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME to do what your clients need.

I can tell you this - a single platform post environment is almost NEVER the right answer. Red or no Red.

Well said,

Offhollywood.

[Finner]

Finner -

This is bleeding edge stuff. You need to use THE BEST TOOLS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME to do what your clients need.

I can tell you this - a single platform post environment is almost NEVER the right answer. Red or no Red.

I understand all this. Important point to make here though is to many production companies red is already a tough sell and an uphill battle. Producers don't like uncertainty or change. So throw in the mix that a bunch of new expensive post tools and applications will have to be purchased by them to test the red with one of their :30 commercials and they will just decide to shoot it on HD or film instead.

This is getting off the topic though. The main point here is apple has been given a huge opportunity to be the #1 red post system and it really looks like they are just pissing that away. So it would be nice if red would open the flood gates to avid and other companies to take up the challenge and do what apple is not. I have seen an avid representitive post here a few times. I have never seen anyone from apple on reduser, it just does not seem like apple really cares that much.

[Brent J. Craig]

Producers don't like uncertainty or change.

But the "You mean I don't have to pay for film and processing?" is resonating with some of them.

If you are lucky enough to live in a town where someone has set up a 'Red film lab" and can take your Red 'negatives' and turn them into good 'ol videotapes overnight at a cost less than half that of film, the situation might be changing.

[Warren Kommers]

I'm with Finner on this one. They have a flippin RED video on the FCP6 webpage with everyone being pals. And then they release QT 7.4? No testing for Rob? WTF APPLE! It will work itself out but they could do better. It is embarrassing to explain to clients as most of us don't have SCRATCH solutions in house for the smaller or personal projects. The bigger ones no problem.

It's the bleeding edge but the bleeding could be better controlled.

You would expect apple to have rolled into NAB this year being like. Yo! we can do 4k now! And we would be like YEEEAAHHHH! And a small dork riot would ensue at the convention similar to what the streets looked like in Boston of October 2004.

Instead we got movie rentals at iTunes. wahh waaaa.

[laguun]

Hi Mark

I'm slow, I'm calm. It's just when my clients have to do 4 days of work just to get red footage in place to edit I start to get concerned.

Same here.
The redline CLI is a good step in the functional direction.
Right now the longform online workflow is really suboptimal.




I completely know it will be just fine. It's just starting to look like it will be better with some other player then apple.
I like competition, and i we have licneses from both, FCS and CS. Many seats in fact.

Apple FCS is 2K, red is 4K. Adobe CS is 4K.
Apple FCS is 8bit RGB (or YUV), red is 10-12RGB. Adobe CS is 10-16RGB.
Apple FCS is OSX only, red is win & osx, Adobe CS is win & osx.

Therefore its still puzzling me why red selected the technically not sufficient system.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I heard that Adobe CS pretty sucks.

Actually every system is a bit sucking and nobody's perfect.

How much?

It's up to you and also how much you are able to tolerate.

[C.H.Haskell]

If they remove this RED WORKFLOW MOVIE CLIP HERE (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/)...from the apple site, then I will start to be very concerned but until then I am crossing my fingers and hope apple is listening...many believers and investors.

It is worrisome for a smaller indie-producer like myself who was always under the assumption that IF I had a new intel mac station I could avoid going to a "RED FILM lab" for a mojority of my day to day work, I am NOT talking about feature length work or other complex higher budgets projects that I know could benefit from a RED oriented post lab.

RED hooked me in, Peter Jackson short blew me away...Apple and FCP support ultimately made pull the trigger.

[Brent J. Craig]

...And then they release QT 7.4? No testing for Rob? WTF APPLE!

There are around 300 Red cameras in the wild How many Quicktime users do you think there are?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

you forget the after effects users, they are f****ed too

[Hans von Sonntag]

I understand all this. Important point to make here though is to many production companies red is already a tough sell and an uphill battle. Producers don't like uncertainty or change. So throw in the mix that a bunch of new expensive post tools and applications will have to be purchased by them to test the red with one of their :30 commercials and they will just decide to shoot it on HD or film instead.
.

In the part of the world where I live commercial postproduction is DigiBeta, Avid, FFF or Quantel. Shooting RED in this evironment means developing RAW dumping the footage on DigiBeta and off you go. No Apple. Never was, and probably never will.

The key to a working RED workflow is fast debayering and creating formates/files/tapes that posthouses can use for an existing workflow. No one will build an entirely new postworkflow just because there is a new camera.

Rentalhouses in my area that are going to embrace RED are currently sorting out how to deliver their clients the neede tapes wether it is DigiBeta, HDCAM, HDCAM SR.

For poeple like me who also work as an indie filmmaker this is a complete different thing. But then again it comes down of bringing down debayering times and of course in budget. I'm sure RED is aware of this matter. With Apple or without.

Hans

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Therefore its still puzzling me why red selected the technically not sufficient system.

No puzzle there. RED shopped around in the beginning, looking for support partners. Apple and Assimilate were the ones who answered the call.

[Finner]

No puzzle there. RED shopped around in the beginning, looking for support partners. Apple and Assimilate were the ones who answered the call.

It's unfortunate that it looks like apple has had that call on hold for the last 10 months.

[laguun]

No puzzle there. RED shopped around in the beginning, looking for support partners. Apple and Assimilate were the ones who answered the call.

Yeah, many were not realizing the potential of red, or, even worse, simply said it can´t be done. I spoke with highranking AVID guys at IBC 2006, who basicly didn´t believe that red was real.

But there are many companies who even called -us- when they found out that we have ordered reds, dvs already in late 2006.

However, why red settled -only- for a 2K 8bit NLE system for a 4K 10/12 bit camera - that seems not logical to me.

Anyhow, it is cruicial now that red gets the industries support - and not prevents the support.

Avid, Adobe, discreet, dvs, iriday, quantel, etc are by -far- the mayority of the existing infrastructure for top-end film & broadcast and using red with these workflow is much to complicated and slow still.

however, with the announced redline/cli for windows and (finally!) a documented fileformat that hopefully can be changed now.

[David Birdy]

We are in this DEEP. We are testing lots of stuff for several companies outside of Red. Apple is just one.

I can tell you this - I have ZERO concerns about efficient workflows on PC or MAC for RED.

I have HUGE issues with Quicktime. But Quicktime is not the solution for everything.

Mark

It seems QuickTime will be a tool for dalies and "proxy" viewing???

[laguun]

It's unfortunate that it looks like apple has had that call on hold for the last 10 months.

Yeah, i really don´t understand what apple is doing.

The patchworked FCP/color, the lack of colorspaces depths in FCP, the resolution limitation to 2K (and lets not speak about the wicked Quicktime 7.4) are all things which are limitating and frustrating. If they at least would announce some patches....

[tillHavis]

The key to a working RED workflow is fast debayering and creating formates/files/tapes that posthouses can use for an existing workflow. No one will build an entirely new postworkflow just because there is a new camera.



This is probably on of the best assessments of the real world implications of using Red to date.
Integration with existing formats is essential.

I know the world will eventually catch up but companies with a huge existing investment in equipment such as Sony SR Decks, D5 and Digibeata are not going to stop using these overnight.

I have been asking Cineform to include these output and monitoring feature in their Mac workflow and I'm sure they will. We need to work with the old format until the new ones are fully supported.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark

It seems QuickTime will be a tool for dalies and "proxy" viewing???

exactly. for that, it is great.

for everything else - we are leaning away from QT more and more - there are some really great things you can do in DPX workflows that you can't touch in QT -

Expect the Glue Tools guys to rock hard at NAB. They just might raise the FCP bar.

[David Birdy]

Mark,

As you seem to be on the forefront of NLE development with RAW..

Can you possibly release a "NAB Guide" for RED Ushers?

Thanks
Dave

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark,

As you seem to be on the forefront of NLE development with RAW..

Can you possibly release a "NAB Guide" for RED Ushers?

Thanks
Dave

I'll post a MUST SEE AT NAB one week before the show -

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks Mark. I need a guide for the NAB.
Btw, just realized that you are a moderator, now!

All my appreciation, Corrado.

[Casey Green]

It seems to me that the best potential path for Apple to go is to release a "Final Cut Studio: RED Edition" plugin or separate release and have a small dedicated team working constantly with RED on it.

That way it can advance much more quickly than the rest of FCS. RED specific workflows such as 4K and 10-12 bit, etc. would be designed and released in this version much sooner.

[M Most]

It seems to me that the best potential path for Apple to go is to release a "Final Cut Studio: RED Edition" plugin or separate release and have a small dedicated team working constantly with RED on it.

That way it can advance much more quickly than the rest of FCS. RED specific workflows such as 4K and 10-12 bit, etc. would be designed and released in this version much sooner.

I think a dose of business reality is now called for in this thread.

Apple is a consumer electronics company. They deal in mass market, not in small niches. Red represents, at the moment, a universe of less than 1000 owners, and not that many more who need to provide support for it. The fact that Apple agreed to provide their support and assistance to Red doesn't change the fact that it is a miniscule market for them, both now and in the foreseeable future unless a whole lot more Red or Red licensed devices start showing up. The Red community - and this is going to sound pretty cold, but I believe it to be true - has a somewhat inflated sense of self importance at this stage of the game. There simply aren't any large numbers involved here. I know that. Most of you, deep down, know that. And Apple knows it, too.

Now, the fact is that they are providing support for Red's products, both directly and indirectly. But to expect specific products for such a small customer base is to be very presumptuous and somewhat naive.

[mradeck]

exactly. for that, it is great.



what should be great, viewing clips with wrong colors?

May be i skipped something in our workflow tests, but i was not able to view & edit that "proxies" with a correct colormatrix. All "proxies" on the cf-cards/raid have only camera-rgb-matrix which are very low saturated and colorshifted, no real colors. So for me and many others in my region, those proxies are not useable for offline editing. We tried to change that with RedAlert, but the new "Proxies" stay with camera-rgb-matrix. So we had to render Quicktimes and dpx-files with redcine, to have real colors.

we also worked then mostly with the dpx-files.

www.michael-radeck.de postproduction supervisor

[David Birdy]

I think a dose of business reality is now called for in this thread.

Apple is a consumer electronics company. They deal in mass market, not in small niches. Red represents, at the moment, a universe of less than 1000 owners, and not that many more who need to provide support for it. The fact that Apple agreed to provide their support and assistance to Red doesn't change the fact that it is a miniscule market for them, both now and in the foreseeable future unless a whole lot more Red or Red licensed devices start showing up. The Red community - and this is going to sound pretty cold, but I believe it to be true - has a somewhat inflated sense of self importance at this stage of the game. There simply aren't any large numbers involved here. I know that. Most of you, deep down, know that. And Apple knows it, too.

Now, the fact is that they are providing support for Red's products, both directly and indirectly. But to expect specific products for such a small customer base is to be very presumptuous and somewhat naive.

Mike,

RED currently has more than 3500 orders....from a camera standpoint that is a STAGGERING number of units in the 1st year....Smart industry savvy veterans would do well to support this "Revolution".

I was in LA a few months ago and the "Buzz" about this little camera is everywhere! That IS reallity.

Dave

[Laco Zamba]

Hi Michael,

did you try in RedAlert to change menu Settings->Color Space?


what should be great, viewing clips with wrong colors?

May be i skipped something in our workflow tests, but i was not able to view & edit that "proxies" with a correct colormatrix. All "proxies" on the cf-cards/raid have only camera-rgb-matrix which are very low saturated and colorshifted, no real colors. So for me and many others in my region, those proxies are not useable for offline editing. We tried to change that with RedAlert, but the new "Proxies" stay with camera-rgb-matrix. So we had to render Quicktimes and dpx-files with redcine, to have real colors.

we also worked then mostly with the dpx-files.

www.michael-radeck.de postproduction supervisor

[David Birdy]

I'll post a MUST SEE AT NAB one week before the show -


Thanks Mark.. Next Time I'm in NY I will stop by OffHollywood.. you guys seem to be smart indusrty savvy people!

Dave

[David Birdy]

This camera seems to be good enough for a guy that can shoot in 35MM if he chooses...but selects the Red One....

The following quote is from Jim on this forum...

Dave


I love Steven Soderbergh's style. He shoots "Guerrilla" with two RED beta prototypes, "Mars" and "Bombay", in the steaming hot jungles of Spain. He wraps and tells film "he has met someone". Then... he decides to be brave (once again) and shoot "The Argentine" in SoderScope. He is now using "Paris" and "Beijing", two of our 25 pre-production cameras, and shooting anamorphic. Who would have thunk it?

It turns out that Steven has so much confidence in RED resolution that he is using only about 2.4K's worth of RED... with a completely different look for each movie.

There aren't many Academy Award winning Directors with as big o' balls as Steven. Gotta love it. You heard it 1st on reduser.net.

Jim

[Finner]

I think a dose of business reality is now called for in this thread.

Apple is a consumer electronics company. They deal in mass market, not in small niches. Red represents, at the moment, a universe of less than 1000 owners, and not that many more who need to provide support for it. The fact that Apple agreed to provide their support and assistance to Red doesn't change the fact that it is a miniscule market for them, both now and in the foreseeable future.


The way I see the proffesional industry 1,000 pro cameras is a ton. There are not 1,000 of either genesis, dalsa's, vipers, d20's on on the market right now. So 1,000 cameras is a huge amount for any of the newer digital cinema camera's. Red will probably have finished shipping their current 3,500+ orders by fall. These are big, big #'s. Most high end digital cameras are working a lot which puts a lot of edit suites to work. If apple does not care because red users are far to "miniscule" of a market for them fine then apple should step aside and let some NLE company that wants to take it seriously take that position . There are a lot of other NLE companies salivating to get into the red game. If apple does not have the foresight to see what is going on in this market right now they will be left behind. Maybe AVID and other NLE companies did not take RED seriously to begin with. Who is really to blame them too hard for that though. There are a lot of vapour ware products that come and go every year so established companies tend to be hessitant and careful when the "next best thing" comes out. Last I saw the AVID representitive here had 109 posts, I have seen not 1 post from a FCP representitive. That kind of sums up the story right there. So it is clear to see AVID is very interested at providing the support needed for a red workflow. I just wish apple was as attentive as AVID has been.

Frankly I think you could use the dose of bussiness reality. Calling red a "miniscule" sector of the digital market is not just an insult it is plain wrong. The numbers other high end cinema cameras on the market pale in comparison to the 3,500 orders red is currently filling.

MichaelP from AVID. If you read this it would be great to hear what options AVID is looking at for red users and if there is possibly an avid option that would compare in quality and price to FCP? I don't know your price structure. I would also like to hear from a FCP representitive on this but they don't seem to interested in being here to support red camera owners. I guess we are to "miniscule" for them.

[David Birdy]

Finner I agree... But you really need to do something about that PIC!!:usd:

Can you change it to PAM for a while?

Dave

[Finner]

Finner I agree... But you really need to do something about that PIC!!:usd:

Dave

Ya Christmas is long gone. Changed!

[I Bloom]

Hi Mark

I'm slow, I'm calm. It's just when my clients have to do 4 days of work just to get red footage in place to edit I start to get concerned. I completely know it will be just fine. It's just starting to look like it will be better with some other player then apple.

Finner, 4 days of work are not neccessary to do this workflow, truly. In these parts, we start cutting as soon as we walk off the set, because we use Prores proxies and begin rendering full takes through Redcine after a rough cut is in place. It works and its reasonable.

The good news is, we just got _F.mov proxie quicktimes generated in camera, a good sign that we are two steps away from a completely self contained 2K workflow in FCP.

IBloom

[C.H.Haskell]

Good to here bloom, thanks for clearing that up for me!

[Brent J. Craig]

It's unfortunate that it looks like apple has had that call on hold for the last 10 months.


... Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold and a representative will be with you as soon as possible...



... Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold and a representative will be with you as soon as possible...



... Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold and a representative will be with you as soon as possible...



... Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold and a representative will be with you as soon as possible...

[mezmo]

Mike,

RED currently has more than 3500 orders....from a camera standpoint that is a STAGGERING number of units in the 1st year....Smart industry savvy veterans would do well to support this "Revolution".

I was in LA a few months ago and the "Buzz" about this little camera is everywhere! That IS reallity.

Dave
Not to mention people who don't actuallly own a Red camera but will need
to set up a post system to process R3d,P2,SaS files on Mac laptops or towers.
Mac gear sales account for almost half of Apple revenue and a very large
amount of that gear is used in the AV/TV and MP industry.
I agree David, Red users and other solid state acquisition users are
intimatly connected with Apple who have it seems 'dropped the ball' in a big way over the past few months
Apple, get your Quicktime s**t together, your gamma s**t,your 8 bit RGB
s**t together or get out of the game.
For the guys at Red, there are alternatives. Adobe, Cineform and Iradas are all standing by, just in case.
Mezmo

[laguun]

Apple, get your Quicktime s**t together, your gamma s**t,your 8 bit RGB
s**t together or get out of the game.


can we add 4K resolution to your list?
Ah, and while at it, it would be nice if the broken SAN support in leopard could be fixed as well.

[Lucas Wilson]

Apple FCS is 2K, red is 4K. Adobe CS is 4K.
Apple FCS is 8bit RGB (or YUV), red is 10-12RGB. Adobe CS is 10-16RGB.
Apple FCS is OSX only, red is win & osx, Adobe CS is win & osx.

Therefore its still puzzling me why red selected the technically not sufficient system.

Right now, the FCP -> SCRATCH workflow is really pretty cool, and it works very well for people who have the tools and are putting it through the process every day - day in and day out - and serving clients.

Laguun, if you'd like to talk to some world-class facilities that are using these workflows, contact me offlist and I'll be glad to put you in touch with some our customers like Technicolor, Ascent Media, Plaster City, Cineworks, Off Hollywood, EFilm, and FOX who think that FCP and SCRATCH are "technically sufficient" systems for RED workflow.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

(70 degrees today... went swimming... I love LA...)

[Edgar Pitts]

Right now, the FCP -> SCRATCH workflow is really pretty cool, and it works very well for people who have the tools and are putting it through the process every day - day in and day out - and serving clients.

Laguun, if you'd like to talk to some world-class facilities that are using these workflows, contact me offlist and I'll be glad to put you in touch with some our customers like Technicolor, Ascent Media, Plaster City, Cineworks, Off Hollywood, EFilm, and FOX who think that FCP and SCRATCH are "technically sufficient" systems for RED workflow.

This is great for the big post houses, but what about the "little guys"? Most indies do not have unlimited resources to throw at the problem.

[John Tissavary]

This is great for the big post houses, but what about the "little guys"? Most indies do not have unlimited resources to throw at the problem.

I think you'll be surprised at how inexpensive a straight up conform in Scratch can be. Obviously depends on the length of the project, but if you supply the edl & original footage, Scratch can assemble it and convert it to a different format rather quickly. If you would like more info, please PM me.

regards,

John T.

[Mark L. Pederson]

This is great for the big post houses, but what about the "little guys"? Most indies do not have unlimited resources to throw at the problem.

Offhollywood is not a "big" post house. We just have big ideas. We don't have unlimited resources to throw at any problem. Scratch was a huge investment for us at the time - but it changed our workflow and business almost overnight.

While Scratch might seem expensive to some people - a RED ONE camera package costs a bit more than a Final Cut Pro Studio 2 license ...

[Kevin Lang]

We are in this DEEP. We are testing lots of stuff for several companies outside of Red. Apple is just one.

I can tell you this - I have ZERO concerns about efficient workflows on PC or MAC for RED.

I have HUGE issues with Quicktime. But Quicktime is not the solution for everything.

Is this not what Final Cut is based on! Are you saying that Scratch is the way and Final Cut is not?

[Casey Green]

I think a dose of business reality is now called for in this thread.

Apple is a consumer electronics company. They deal in mass market, not in small niches. Red represents, at the moment, a universe of less than 1000 owners, and not that many more who need to provide support for it. The fact that Apple agreed to provide their support and assistance to Red doesn't change the fact that it is a miniscule market for them, both now and in the foreseeable future unless a whole lot more Red or Red licensed devices start showing up. The Red community - and this is going to sound pretty cold, but I believe it to be true - has a somewhat inflated sense of self importance at this stage of the game. There simply aren't any large numbers involved here. I know that. Most of you, deep down, know that. And Apple knows it, too.

Now, the fact is that they are providing support for Red's products, both directly and indirectly. But to expect specific products for such a small customer base is to be very presumptuous and somewhat naive.




The way I see the proffesional industry 1,000 pro cameras is a ton. There are not 1,000 of either genesis, dalsa's, vipers, d20's on on the market right now. So 1,000 cameras is a huge amount for any of the newer digital cinema camera's. Red will probably have finished shipping their current 3,500+ orders by fall. These are big, big #'s. Most high end digital cameras are working a lot which puts a lot of edit suites to work. If apple does not care because red users are far to "miniscule" of a market for them fine then apple should step aside and let some NLE company that wants to take it seriously take that position . There are a lot of other NLE companies salivating to get into the red game. If apple does not have the foresight to see what is going on in this market right now they will be left behind. Maybe AVID and other NLE companies did not take RED seriously to begin with. Who is really to blame them too hard for that though. There are a lot of vapour ware products that come and go every year so established companies tend to be hessitant and careful when the "next best thing" comes out. Last I saw the AVID representitive here had 109 posts, I have seen not 1 post from a FCP representitive. That kind of sums up the story right there. So it is clear to see AVID is very interested at providing the support needed for a red workflow. I just wish apple was as attentive as AVID has been.

Frankly I think you could use the dose of bussiness reality. Calling red a "miniscule" sector of the digital market is not just an insult it is plain wrong. The numbers other high end cinema cameras on the market pale in comparison to the 3,500 orders red is currently filling.

MichaelP from AVID. If you read this it would be great to hear what options AVID is looking at for red users and if there is possibly an avid option that would compare in quality and price to FCP? I don't know your price structure. I would also like to hear from a FCP representitive on this but they don't seem to interested in being here to support red camera owners. I guess we are to "miniscule" for them.

Well put, Finner.

And mmost, while I don't take what you wrote personally, I strongly disagree with the idea that anyone who feels this way about the potential RED market share is "presumptuous" and "naive". Of course Apple has a huge business in consumer electronics. But they also sell some pretty damned high-end products as well. I don't think that argument applies here. Also, there are many many companies that offer targeted versions of their flagship products for use with specific partner companies. Whether this is done as a separate release or perhaps even a downloadable plugin, it is done all of the time in the industry.

The thing to keep in mind here is that we are still just in the beginnings of radical change in Digital Cinema and Motion Media. Many things are at stake, and RED is not the only player in the game. With the emergence of Final Cut as a professional standard within the past few years, along with the consumer, prosumer, and professional reach that Apple has with it's product line, there is huge potential for Apple to grow by staking a bigger claim in the Motion Picture industry.

By teaming with RED, Apple further solidifies it's future with it's FCS and Computer lineup. More and more, the younger generation will be already familiar with Apple products and will be more comfortable using MACs than PCs. This has always been the Apple strategy. Thats why they give away so many computers to schools. Now those kids are all grown up and making decisions for their companies.

But not to get too side-tracked... If RED does become the future choice of modern film-makers, and Apple is partnered with them, this means much more than just selling a few extra copies of Final Cut to RED owners. It's all of the facilities that will want to have RED workflows in place, it's all of the schools who want to have RED classes offered, it's all of the people who will never even Edit RED footage, but are inspired by what others are using. All needing top of the line MACs and FCP licenses. (I think RED will make the workflow available for PC Users eventually, but I still think it will never be as easy. That remains to be seen.)

I really believe RED and Apple have a golden opportunity here if they play their cards right. Even though Apple has dropped out of NAB, that does not mean they can't have a space in the RED Booth with Reps answering questions and demoing workflow.

It is gonna take a lot of hard work (and already has), but I prefer to keep an open mind to the potential here.

[David Birdy]

Great Post Casey, I'm not sure how Mike gets his information as it seems scewed

[Paul Hazlett]

I'll post a MUST SEE AT NAB one week before the show -

I would appreciate this since I will be like a plane without a rudder at NAB this year, no apple both to start from and branch out.

[laguun]

Offhollywood is not a "big" post house. We just have big ideas. We don't have unlimited resources to throw at any problem. Scratch was a huge investment for us at the time - but it changed our workflow and business almost overnight.

Have you been offering D.I. services on other systems as discreet, quantel, nucoda, iridas, dvs, filmlight etc before you bought scratch?




While Scratch might seem expensive to some people - a RED ONE camera package costs a bit more than a Final Cut Pro Studio 2 license ...
I think scratch has, in the legacy business model where you basicly negotiate the price on a per customer basis, an ok price and is a good product.

I however think assimilate is missing the opportunity to sell thousands of seats right now.

[laguun]

Right now, the FCP -> SCRATCH workflow is really pretty cool, and it works very well for people who have the tools and are putting it through the process every day - day in and day out - and serving clients.

The workflow with editing offline in FCP on OSX and then booting to Windows to render the R3D in Scratch is certainly highly disk space saving - but it isn´t as elegant, and more important, flexible as we want. We want integrated editing and online, an one OS and one-stop solution and therefore invested in different systems - for our workflow where VFX, editing, post, sound etc are all done integrated the FCP->scratch workflow wasn´t preferable.
Anyhow, we will look also at scratch again once the next D.I. seat is due, maybe in Q3 this year.



Laguun, if you'd like to talk to some world-class facilities that are using these workflows, contact me offlist and I'll be glad to put you in touch with some our customers like Technicolor, Ascent Media, Plaster City, Cineworks, Off Hollywood, EFilm, and FOX who think that FCP and SCRATCH are "technically sufficient" systems for RED workflow.

Thank you very much, however i would call the ones on the list we didn´t work together with in the recent 19 years directly if i would have questions.

However, for our 3hrd D.I. seat we rather spoke and/or examined arri, geyer, werk, eclair paris, fxfactory and rented the final candidates before deciding and then investing for the 2 booked fullfeatures at hand.

Combined together, FCP and SCRATCH are fully "technically sufficient" systems for red 4k rgb online - because scratch is.
FCP on its own sadly isn´t (yet?) - but its still an good solution for many jobs.



(70 degrees today... went swimming... I love LA...)
:) can´t competete with that, however having berlinale in town right now is also solid fun.

[laguun]

I really believe RED and Apple have a golden opportunity here if they play their cards right. Even though Apple has dropped out of NAB, that does not mean they can't have a space in the RED Booth with Reps answering questions and demoing workflow.

i agree - if apple would fix the color integration with fcs & color, would enhance FCP to 4k and >=10 bit in RGB and solve their nastly quality problems with XSAN and QT 7.4 - it would be a real golden opportunity.

I really hope Apple has lots of R&D working right now to solve these problems.

however, adobe already has made their homework - 4K, 16bit RGB, even realtime 4k playback and conform with cineform or rendering uncompressed 4K conform (no 4k monitoring, as in scratch/iridas etc however) and i am puzzled why red isn´t using this yet, especially as adobe cs 3 is crossplatform.

[M Most]

The way I see the proffesional industry 1,000 pro cameras is a ton. There are not 1,000 of either genesis, dalsa's, vipers, d20's on on the market right now. So 1,000 cameras is a huge amount for any of the newer digital cinema camera's....Frankly I think you could use the dose of bussiness reality. Calling red a "miniscule" sector of the digital market is not just an insult it is plain wrong. The numbers other high end cinema cameras on the market pale in comparison to the 3,500 orders red is currently filling.

You need to re-read what I said. The ENTIRE "digital cinema" market - in fact, the entire "professional industry" - is small potatoes compared to consumer video. There are probably more consumer HDV cameras sold in a week than there will be digital cinema cameras sold in a year, Red included. When you measure your potential sales in the hundreds of thousands at the minimum, and millions on the average - like Apple does with just about every one of their products with the possible exception of the Pro Apps - the numbers ARE miniscule. That's not a put down of Red, it's just fact.

[Casey Green]

You need to re-read what I said. The ENTIRE "digital cinema" market - in fact, the entire "professional industry" - is small potatoes compared to consumer video. There are probably more consumer HDV cameras sold in a week than there will be digital cinema cameras sold in a year, Red included. When you measure your potential sales in the hundreds of thousands at the minimum, and millions on the average - like Apple does with just about every one of their products with the possible exception of the Pro Apps - the numbers ARE miniscule. That's not a put down of Red, it's just fact.


Again, Apple is investing in more than the opportunity to sell software licenses to a few thousand Camera owners. "More HDV Cameras sold in a week...?" No Doubt, but how many 8 core Mac Pros is Apple going to sell to that Market? They might however, sell 50 systems with 50 FCS licenses in one fell swoop to a Post House that will renew its software license every year or switch over from an Adobe or Avid workflow.

Please re-read my earlier post. IMO, it's about the big picture... not the minuscule one. :wink:

[Warren Kommers]

There are around 300 Red cameras in the wild How many Quicktime users do you think there are?

There are many applications for quicktime. I'm not sure what you're saying to be honest.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I agree with mmost. RED support is more important as a marketing tagline than a moneymaker.

HDV shouldn't sell top of the line systems... but it does. There are millions of DVCPro and HDV cameras out there. There will be 3500 REDs in the not too distant future. Even if RED 'revolutionizes' the high end digital cinema market... it's not going to grow all that much. Cameras are a small itsy bitsy teeny tiny nano-scopic obstacle to success and popularity. And at $40k for a kit, we're not at a place where every film student is going to have one in their dorm room.

We're all in a very small industry here. Even if it were to double in size... it's still really really small. More people make aluminum siding than movies. We're a handful of nobodies. Unless you can sell to the insurance salesman and school teacher you're not hitting mass market.

RED is huge by DC standards, but they all use HDCAM or DVCPro. Two formats that millions of cameras use, post houses use, DIs use, broadcast stations use... the list goes on and on. If I was a project manager at Apple and needed to choose between improving my DVCPro HD or RED performance... I would get RED just up to a level sufficient to market as an example of my product being "high end" (ala Color) and then put my time and energy back towards the millions of investment bankers who are shooting on their EX1s and exporting to iPods.

... actually if I was project manager I would find out who was developing the gamma 'correction' for Quicktime and hit them with a bowling pin.

[Finner]

This thread has had a lot of attention and it looks like a lot of people agree from posts and some PM's I have recived.

Something I find very interesting is with as big and quick as this thread grew not one post in defence of apple by a red employee. Looks like the "RED" headed step child may not be that impressed with how it's relationship has progressed to date also.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Something I find very interesting is with as big and quick as this thread grew not one post in defence of apple by a red employee. Looks like the "RED" headed step child may not be that impressed with how it's relationship has progressed to date also.

I know are you trying to "stir the pot" Finner - but come on - to make a statement like that - based on the fact that "not one post in defence of apple by a red employee" - is really silly.

Did everyone just freak out because Apple announced that they would not have a booth at NAB?


PS. - Do really think, for one second, that Apple will NOT have a presence at NAB? Last year, Assimilate had a great presence without a booth ... just a nice hotel suite across the street. Nice cold beers and great demo artists.

[chuckt]

Lack of Post Production support for 4K was one of the reasons given by Sony for shying away from 4K for their F35, if I remember correctly.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Lack of Post Production support for 4K was one of the reasons given by Sony for shying away from 4K for their F35, if I remember correctly.

That would be an EXCUSE not a reason.

I guess the Sony camera guys don't talk to the Sony projector guys.

[mezmo]

The real point here is that Solid State Aquisition in all flavours be it R3d,
P2, SaS, whatever, will, in the not too distant future be THE aquisition format for a huge amount of new applications.
Despite what anyone says there will be a MASSIVE market for equipment
that can process, convert ,conform, grade and output this material to a
variety of standards, some already established some totally new.
Equipment provided to the mass market not only the specialized niche market of the professional post production houses.
This will happen, the only question is will Apple still be a major player
in this new era. Judging by the lack of response in regards to Red and
the way things are going in other Pro app areas , it's not looking good IMHO.
Mezmo

[M Most]

That would be an EXCUSE not a reason.

I guess the Sony camera guys don't talk to the Sony projector guys.

Maybe not. But personally, I wouldn't touch the current Sony 4K projector for color correction at this point in time. Exhibition, maybe. Post production, no. Would you?

[Gunleik Groven]

Let's see what kind of IMPRESSION the NAB 07/Apple-Red partnership left me with.

1. CTL was edited in 4k in FCS1 and CC'ed on a da vinci.
2. We will be able to drop red footy DIRECTLY into the FCP timeline, adjust proxy settings and edit on the fly, then re-adjust proxysettings for final online/renders or exports to compositors etc
3. RedCine like plug-in for FCS so you can do 1st light DIRECTLY INSIDE FCS without long rendertimes to get the proxies/online material out.

These three news/hints/whatever created a huge excitement, and I may have misunderstood all or none of them, but they were generally huge for the Red/FCS buzz


I'm not really complaining, on the opposite I'm planning to build some clusters to deal with the workflow, but it's not really what I thought was the goal.

Scratch is @ the moment the only software that can stay in RedRAW throughout the editing process.

Gunleik

[M Most]

Let's see what kind of IMPRESSION the NAB 07/Apple-Red partnership left me with.

1. CTL was edited in 4k in FCS1 and CC'ed on a da vinci.
2. We will be able to drop red footy DIRECTLY into the FCP timeline, adjust proxy settings and edit on the fly, then re-adjust proxysettings for final online/renders or exports to compositors etc
3. RedCine like plug-in for FCS so you can do 1st light DIRECTLY INSIDE FCS without long rendertimes to get the proxies/online material out.

My impression - actually not my impression, it was stated quite clearly - was:
1. CTL was edited (cuts only) using the smallest QT proxies on a laptop, then conformed - by hand, essentially using eye matching - on a Quantel IQ or Pablo system, then color corrected on a Pablo.

2. and 3. were largely as you describe them.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Maybe not. But personally, I wouldn't touch the current Sony 4K projector for color correction at this point in time. Exhibition, maybe. Post production, no. Would you?
Hell no. But the point I was making was that is seems like they are talking out of both side of their mouth.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Let's see what kind of IMPRESSION the NAB 07/Apple-Red partnership left me with.

1. CTL was edited in 4k in FCS1 and CC'ed on a da vinci.

Gunleik

Correction:

1. CTL was edited using proxies in FCS1 and then CC'ed on a Quantel's PABLO (http://www.quantel.com/site/en.nsf/html/pablo_home).

"All shots then conformed & graded on a Quantel Pablo on site in New Zealand at Park Road Post (http://www.parkroadpost.co.nz/)"

Quote: HD4indies (http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/04/details-samples-commentary-on-red-one.html)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

PS. - Do really think, for one second, that Apple will NOT have a presence at NAB? Last year, Assimilate had a great presence without a booth ... just a nice hotel suite across the street. Nice cold beers and great demo artists.

Yep. Apple may not have their own booth, but their products will be everywhere. I'm still expecting Apple to have a similar kick-off event like they did last year or to at least make some sort of announcement to coincide with NAB.

[Colin Hubick]

I don't understand why everybody is having such a hard time with the workflow. As Ian (iBloom) mentioned earlier in this thread, we too are dumping footage straight into FCP immediately after offloading the footage from the drives and cards. We are not processing anything within REDCINE until we have locked picture. Our offline editors seem to be fine with cutting 1k proxies (btw these look great when we master them to dBeta or Beta SP as is).

Once our offline editor has finished their cut, and it's ready to move on to the next stage. We use Ian's droplet to convert the FCP xml to RED xml, then load that xml into REDCINE (more detailed instructions can be found on this site) and process ONLY the footage in our cut (with handles) While this isn't an immediate process, it doesn't take any longer than up-rezing footage from another tape based format. Typically I set REDCINE up at the end of the day, hit the button, and leave REDCINE to do it's thing. When I come back in the morning I have an nicely organized set of clips that link back up in FCP, ready to do any titling, color correction, as part of the typical online process. Even for a sequence that runs for more than a couple hours, the processing out of REDCINE easily finishes overnight.

Even with the processing of the RAW files in the mix, this still takes less time, and less labor than the traditional tape based approach.

PS Winnipeg (Production Services) in Canada have bought 30 RED's and came by this past Thursday to see the post workflow in action, and were happily surprised with how easy it really was. If anybody wants to talk to PS about their experience give Stephan Recksiedler or Michael Drabot a call at PS.

Colin

[M Most]

Even for a sequence that runs for more than a couple hours, the processing out of REDCINE easily finishes overnight.

Not at full quality. At standard, maybe.

[laguun]

Once our offline editor has finished their cut, and it's ready to move on to the next stage. We use Ian's droplet to convert the FCP xml to RED xml, then load that xml into REDCINE (more detailed instructions can be found on this site) and process ONLY the footage in our cut (with handles) While this isn't an immediate process, it doesn't take any longer than up-rezing footage from another tape based format. Typically I set REDCINE up at the end of the day, hit the button, and leave REDCINE to do it's thing. When I come back in the morning I have an nicely organized set of clips that link back up in FCP, ready to do any titling, color correction, as part of the typical online process. Even for a sequence that runs for more than a couple hours, the processing out of REDCINE easily finishes overnight.

For many scenarios your workflow is excellent, for a more industrial process however, all this is additional work, and another day.
The way it should (and does with most digital cameras) work:
a) load footage
b) edit it
c) output it to flash/bluray/film/tape/dci, directly, not after one more day.



Even with the processing of the RAW files in the mix, this still takes less time, and less labor than the traditional tape based approach.

here i have to disagree - we are also running since 2002 a networked hdcam workflow. digitze in the backgound, or shoot directly to disk in master quality, networked, colorcorrection -paralell- to editing possible, background rendering on up to 64 cpus directly to the timeline - all this is pretty usual if you are running systems as avid ds, discreet smoke, quantel Q series... heck, even elder systems as sony xpri.

red already is much faster than film, but its slower than modern networked tape or disc basing approaches.

[Finner]

I know are you trying to "stir the pot" Finner

Little old me. By the way what does "stir the pot" mean?


but come on - to make a statement like that - based on the fact that "not one post in defence of apple by a red employee" - is really silly.

Silly? Still no red post yet?

[Gunleik Groven]

Thanks for correcting the CTL info. That really makes more sense, but there are reasons the 2 other points are quite important.

And Colin, either you or me are missing the main points with RAW and the workflow... (or I'm just misreading you...)

Because if you don't adjust ISO settings to 320 - 200 ASA (depending on lightning conditions) AND export to a 16 bit format, you essentially throw away most of the Red advantage...
That is if you don't do a first light in RedCine before you go to a video-format. (RAW isn't video. RAW is RAW)

So even if iBlooms droplet let you batch the transcoding, if you batch your files to prores (say) without treating them in RedCine, you basically are left with a highly compressed 8-bit 4:2:2 cam with not to ideal carracterristics for CC.

Actually, to record an EX1 through SDI to 10 bit 4:2:2 should technically give you at least as much to work with in 1080. (No. I don't say the images are really comparable, just that for CC and postwork you could have more juice to work with)

And for all film/F23/F900/HPX 3000/Viper/Arri comparisons - which are the relevant ones, the very:
"Batch convert to 8-bit prores"
Step is what kills off the advantage.

Mind you. I don't say the image is in any way "bad", it's fantastic, but it isn't what many seems to think it is...

To me, the 1080/2k finish isn't really the biggest problem,
Throwing away all them bits are.

Whearas staying in RAW in FCP untill final render would keep that advantage.

This can be worsened by wrong exposure/iso settings in RedCine/Red ALert.
This can give really unwanted results and I guess this is what we see in quite a few posted clips...

But I guess this all boils down to what cam you bought when you bought Red.
Did you buy a 4:2:2 video cam with a built in 35mm adapter, or did you buy a cam to use instead of High End video cams, 35mm/16mm included with a DI process.

Red can definitely serve both these purposes.

Gunleik

[Häakon]

I know are you trying to "stir the pot" Finner - but come on - to make a statement like that - based on the fact that "not one post in defence of apple by a red employee" - is really silly.
I have to say, I'm in agreeance with Finner here. Whether or not Apple has really dropped the ball here is anyone's guess... perhaps they're still hard at work with RED, or perhaps it has become a distant priority. The point is, until someone official from RED chimes in, we have no way of knowing. Sometimes that's just something we have to deal with - it's their prerogative which information they choose to release - but considering that they've rolled out hundreds of production level cameras now, you'd think we'd get a little more explanation on the workable post solution that Apple was trumpeting at NAB '07.

I also find it interesting given the way the RED team stalks these forums which topics they choose to address (sometimes ad nauseam) and which ones they choose to completely ignore. This one definitely isn't the first.

[Kevin Lang]

It would be nice if someone from Red or Apple would chime in on this.

[Chris Kenny]

For the record, ProRes is 10-bit, not 8-bit.

As far as the larger issue being discussed here... Apple is highly secretive, and tends to put its corporate partners under strict NDAs as well. As such, a lack of information from Apple and Red may or may not actually mean anything.

[Mark L. Pederson]

As far as the larger issue being discussed here... Apple is highly secretive, and tends to put its corporate partners under strict NDAs as well. As such, a lack of information from Apple and Red may or may not actually mean anything.
Bingo.

[Gunleik Groven]

For the record, ProRes is 10-bit, not 8-bit.


I know.

But FCS's ability to use those last two bits throughout the workflow is questionable at best.

In OffHollowood we trust!
So help me Steve and Jim!

LOL

Gunleik
(Who is in no way unhappy, but just have been playing around a bit)

[Sanjin Jukic]

One more thing:

Don't forget again that FCP is

Academy Award nominee (http://www.oscars.org/80academyawards/nominees/) this year 2008 for

Achievement in film editing

“No Country for Old Men” (Miramax and Paramount Vantage)

Editor: Joel Coen aka Roderick Jaynes

Apple and Steve Jobs like awards a lot.

Let's wait and see who will win.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

I don't understand why everybody is having such a hard time with the workflow. As Ian (iBloom) mentioned earlier in this thread, we too are dumping footage straight into FCP immediately after offloading the footage from the drives and cards. We are not processing anything within REDCINE until we have locked picture. Our offline editors seem to be fine with cutting 1k proxies (btw these look great when we master them to dBeta or Beta SP as is).

Once our offline editor has finished their cut, and it's ready to move on to the next stage. We use Ian's droplet to convert the FCP xml to RED xml, then load that xml into REDCINE (more detailed instructions can be found on this site) and process ONLY the footage in our cut (with handles) While this isn't an immediate process, it doesn't take any longer than up-rezing footage from another tape based format. Typically I set REDCINE up at the end of the day, hit the button, and leave REDCINE to do it's thing. When I come back in the morning I have an nicely organized set of clips that link back up in FCP, ready to do any titling, color correction, as part of the typical online process. Even for a sequence that runs for more than a couple hours, the processing out of REDCINE easily finishes overnight.

Even with the processing of the RAW files in the mix, this still takes less time, and less labor than the traditional tape based approach.

PS Winnipeg (Production Services) in Canada have bought 30 RED's and came by this past Thursday to see the post workflow in action, and were happily surprised with how easy it really was. If anybody wants to talk to PS about their experience give Stephan Recksiedler or Michael Drabot a call at PS.

Colin

Colin,

Can you please explain what your delivery format is? What do you finish in, both in terms of software, bit depth and resolution? What are you comparing to when you say "these look great when we master them to dBeta or Beta SP as is"? I understand from your post that you online in FCP, with Quicktime? Or do you render to DPX and use GlueTools? Grading in FCP or Color?

I'm not saying your workflow is wrong, but what you are describing isn't necessarily considered to use the full potential of the raw-files...

Cheers,
Fredrik

[Brent J. Craig]

There are many applications for quicktime. I'm not sure what you're saying to be honest.

People were surprised that no one from Apple had tested QT7.4 with Red. I was saying that out of the many millions of Quicktime users, the 300 Red owners are such a small group as to be completely off their radar as far as testing new releases.

[Mark L. Pederson]

But FCS's ability to use those last two bits throughout the workflow is questionable at best.

Gunleik


Post of the day.

[Phil D]

Red and Apple in any sort of exclusive deal together goes against the whole Red ethos doesn't it?

RedOne is a revolution. Its a camera by the people, for the people. To make a camera that breaks so many rules, and that promises to free filmmakers from the bonds of exorbitant post production costs, only to then tie it to an exclusive deal with one big NLE package is not right in my book!

Apple is a great design and marketing company, maybe the best in the world. I just worry that their association with Red is more about Apples image, as it makes them look cool, and cutting edge.

I know this is a gross simplification of the whole situation, and that other post production work flows will open up for RED. I'm patient, I can wait. I'd just like to hear what they might be...and if they'll be available on a PC platform anytime soon.

[Dylan Reeve]

All things considered, everything in the post side will benefit hugely from the opening up of REDCODE to other manufacturers.

The 4K conform (or even 2K) is always going be a bit of a time consuming process (but so is scanning 35mm to 4K).

But once more people get in on the act then the editing and lower-res finishing options will be expanded hugely, workflows will become more clear and everything will just be 'better'.

Right now, what I want most is an efficient way to get footage into Avid for editing. I'm happy to conform on FCP or something else, but I want to cut in Avid.

However in the evolution of RED we're not really even at day 0 yet - the product hasn't been declared 'production' yet - it's still beta, and it's still unavailable to other players.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Red and Apple in any sort of exclusive deal together goes against the whole Red ethos doesn't it?

RedOne is a revolution. Its a camera by the people, for the people. To make a camera that breaks so many rules, and that promises to free filmmakers from the bonds of exorbitant post production costs, only to then tie it to an exclusive deal with one big NLE package is not right in my book!

Apple is a great design and marketing company, maybe the best in the world. I just worry that their association with Red is more about Apples image, as it makes them look cool, and cutting edge.

I know this is a gross simplification of the whole situation, and that other post production work flows will open up for RED. I'm patient, I can wait. I'd just like to hear what they might be...and if they'll be available on a PC platform anytime soon.

Red One is not a revolution. It's a digital high resolution cinema camera that shoots RAW! :w00t: :usd:

I do agree that Apples interest in RED is very different from their other main partner, Assimilate. And this is The Year of the IPhone, so what do you expect? :sarcasm:

BUT, first of all there are several work flows already. RedCine if Windows and Mac and is free to download. From there you can process file formats compatible with almost any NLE or finishing tool on Windows.

If you expect the Revolution to include a major drop in prices, change business structures or "to free filmmakers from the bonds of exorbitant post production costs" I'm not sure if I follow you. A 4K finish is still a 4K finish. The time spent in sound is the same. The editing is the same. How can it possibly become so much cheaper just because the camera is reasonably priced? You should be comparing this to film...

And BTW, SCRATCH is on the "PC platform". I recommend it dearly. We just finished our first production here shot with a Red One, edited, graded and finished with graphics. Not a single Mac was involved in the production, actually.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't understand why everybody is having such a hard time with the workflow. [...]
Colin

IF you don't care about maintaing color (FCP is quicktime based). IF you don't mind working in 8bit. And you don't mind sacrificing a few other things along the way then by all means 4k is a viable workflow right now.

It's not however as bulletproof as something like an HDCAM workflow where you have years of trial and error plus software development to bring it to market. The F35 could have been a 4k camera but they decided most of their customers didn't care, didn't want to deal with it and wanted an easier more time tested workflow than the latest and greatest wizbang technology. I suppose they also guessed that their customers preferred dynamic range over resolution.

Sony is right, there isn't a production proven, bulletproof workflow for 4k yet. It's still in its infancy so I'm not suprised they are saying it's not ready yet for mass consumption.

---

REDCine was far from the only application that Quicktime 7.4 broke so that wasn't a case of Apple even saying "Who cares if RED breaks we're going to push it out for our consumer technology now" that was a case of "Who cares if we break DOZENS of professional applications, we're going to push it out for our consumer technology now".

---

Apple never telegraphs any of their moves. Which is fun for consumer technology and toys but sucks for professional studios and pipeline development. They seriously need to cut it out. They aren't the only viable option and many studios choose their pipeline applications and stick to them for many many many years.

Mark you can call all of this FUD but this is exactly the kid of FUD that springs up when you don't tell your customers what you're going to do and leave them to speculation. IF I were building a studio pipeline right now I would build it around Adobe or Avid just because I have a pretty good idea what they're going to do next year. I never have any idea what Apple is going to do. Are they going to make it MacOS only and Kill it (Shake)? Are they going to let it stagnate and rot (Quicktime)? Are they going to get it out the door and then just call it a day (Color)? Are they going to release a new product (Phenomenon)? Who knows. For all we know Apple will sell off its whole pro-apps division tommorow. Whatever they decide it's not the their core business so honestly they have no serious reason to keep it.

Not all of us have a little bird like you who shows up on our window every morning to tell us what Apple is up to. We should. It should be Apple.

Let's take quicktime as a wonderful example. For the last 10 years their gamma has been FUBAR.

---

Quicktime sucks. That wasn't a response to anybody. I just felt like saying it.

---

RED is out of beta. Remember? Build 14 the transition mark. So it's actually like Day 5.

[Steve Sanacore]

That would be an EXCUSE not a reason.

I guess the Sony camera guys don't talk to the Sony projector guys.

Now that's funny!

[Sean]

Seems that some are arguing that the size of the Red market doesn't warrant the devotion of Apple's development team. But Cineform seems happy to run with the ball as fast as Red can throw it.

[Dylan Reeve]

RED is out of beta. Remember? Build 14 the transition mark. So it's actually like Day 5.

I thought Build 15 was the end of beta mark?

Anyway, I don't think it really counts until RED can start opening up their tech to other companies.

[Finner]

As far as the larger issue being discussed here... Apple is highly secretive, and tends to put its corporate partners under strict NDAs as well. As such, a lack of information from Apple and Red may or may not actually mean anything.

NDA's would not stop a red representitive from saying "Things are all comming together on this." or "You all will be blown away by some post answers that are on the horizon.". The overall success of RED is dependant upon it working well from first shot recorded to finished product. Red has put a lot of trust in apple to help with the success of the camera and from what we have seen from apple over the last 10 months it does not appear that they care one little bit. Apple talked a big game at NAB 07 and that seems to be where it ended. If it was me who owned red I would not be real impressed with apple right now.

I am hoping my thoughts on this are all proved to be way of base. I just have not seen anything from apple to contradict them.

[planet e]

keep this crusade alive...we need some answers from Apple. their support has been close to non-existent and this was the PROMISED workflow, meaning that people are spending a lot of money buying high-end Apple machines to run the workflow.

if we needed to put $50K into Scratch to finish, we should have been told this up front, from the beginning--we were *told* Apple. $50K is not some fluky add-on....it puts these cameras right back into the class of cameras that it was intended to revolutionize, ahem!

[Corey Culp]

If they remove this RED WORKFLOW MOVIE CLIP HERE (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/)...from the apple site, then I will start to be very concerned but until then I am crossing my fingers and hope apple is listening...many believers and investors.

Apple still has the CBS2/KCAL9 clip up showing them "working with" Final Cut Server, and yet, FCServer has still yet to be released 10 months later. I don't need to see Apple pull the videos to be concerned. The simple fact they've promised RED support beyond what they've provided nearly a year later, then bailing out of NAB (still unknown if they'll have a Sunday night fling as in the past to still have a presence in LV0, that is enough for me to be concerned.

[Finner]

keep this crusade alive...we need some answers from Apple. their support has been close to non-existent and this was the PROMISED workflow, meaning that people are spending a lot of money buying high-end Apple machines to run the workflow.

MichaelP from AVID has been here lots and has over 100 posts. He seems genuinely interested red customers. Red owners have been refered to as being to "miniscule" for apple to really put in any effort. Way I see it is if AVID steps up to the plate and is able to offer a "RED focused" AVID system for a good price we should see about a group buy. If avid is can offer a good red system like this that will hopefully not upset there other high end $100k customers because it is more of a red branded system we all may be better off to choose a company that listens and wants to provide the best product it can to it's customers, much like red has shown it is with its camera.

Obvously Michael is here because AVID wants to be a part of this reveloution. So although what I suggest has tons of speculation to it maybe there is a chance of a red/avid NLE being the best features to price option?

[Frank Weeks]

So although what I suggest has tons of speculation to it maybe there is a chance of a red/avid NLE being the best features to price option?

I would love to see Avid as a viable alternative for Red workflow. If the price is within reason and we are aware that it will work well with Red.
In the next 90 days red will deliver a couple thousand cameras. Mine included. For many of us the biggest questions remains, how will I post these beautiful images.

Darren, I hope your thread will help us find some answers.

[Gunleik Groven]

Re FCS workflow and bit depth.


Post of the day.


I was at a seminar with the guy writing the Color manual, the other day - and it is doable and done, but not the way people tend to use FCS/COLOR.

The idea - suggested last NAB - that you could stay in RAW throughout the workflow - doing 1st color within FCP - send that to Color for CC/Grade and output directly from FCP... isn't really there yet :) And if people try to work the Red files in this fashion (which it seems people try to) they're in for some surprises.

But again: I'm not really complaining - I just want to make it clearer that you will have to treat the RAW files exactly as a film negative and RedCine exactly as the "scan" in a DI and output files for online/offline exactly like you would for a filmscan to be able to use the FCS workflow (for 2k).

Question is if this is a rational route when you've gone through all the labour of preparing your files and hardware needed to contain/playback your files.

And - it seems - this is confusing a lot of people "because they can play the qt proxies on a macbook".

Yes, they can, but that playback has little to do with the power of the "red RAW" files when it comes to post work.

So, when it comes to time, labour, processing power needed and disk-throughput needed to process Red files non-destructively in a fashion that doesn't kill off most of Red-RAW's advantages as you go - Scratch is the only way.
Scratch basically does what we were led to believe FCS would do.

If you choose a "Film/DI" route, FCS @ the moment have no advantages compared to any other film/DI workflows, it actually has a disadvantage in that it can't handle 4k - if that's what you want to do.

But as a quick way to get the images to the screen - FCS have some advantage. It could be argued that for quite a few uses "you don't need" all the juice Red gives to you. I don't really agree, but I see the point, and for those scenarios - FCS is a good way to start.

I think, though - that Red rather sooner than later - needs to be more clear on this - because people try to evaluate dynamic range on the camera on totally wrong premises when they follow the FCS "recomended" workflow.

And it's no surprise that a 8-bit (yes I know about those 2 last bits...) 4:2:2 image holds up worse than a 10 bit 4:4:4 image in post.

Just as an illustration:
You will need 3 packed XRAIDS to work as one in RAID-5 to push enough data for 10-bit 4:4:4 @ 2k.

So this is a major issue all the "Can I edit RedRAW on my laptop" people totally overlook.

The good thing, though - is that you can access the files for less, but you won't get all the advantages from the format without Scratch or such a workflow.

And there's NOTHING wrong in using Red as a 4:2:2 highly compressed video-cam with a built in 35mm adapter!

The other option - of course - is "RedCine Pro" - where you are allowed to make cuts and transitions. You can export what you need for compositing and text-overlays and maybe it's limited to 2 tracks for RAW and 1 track for Video.
I'd jump ship from FCS for this app...


Gunleik
(Still FCS user...)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Avid doesn't need to offer a group buy. If you want to purchase a "stripped down" version of Nitris. You want Media Composer. Which is already available for the "group buy" rate of $5,000 Or there is Xpress Pro for FCP comparable prices. Where people usually run into trouble is not building their system explicitely within recommended specs. It's gotten better over time but it's still really picky. (Also people don't learn Avid and then complain it's slow and difficult.)

However if you want to live the dream of RAW workflow you want Cineform and Adobe or Scratch.

[Dylan Reeve]

I believe what Avid offers is likely to be an integrated import function like they do with P2 and XDCAM. However as there's no way it will support the native files obviously as it's well outside the specs of any native Avid formats.

Also, as Avid uses it's own codecs (usually) it's likely that there will be a import transcode time. But once it's in it will play in realtime like all Avid media.

It would be an offline editorial solution mostly I suspect, although if it can export XML for REDCINE then it should be possible to generate standard HD conforms with it.

I'm speculating wildly.

[Gunleik Groven]

Avid doesn't need to offer a group buy. If you want to purchase a "stripped down" version of Nitris. You want Media Composer. Which is already available for the "group buy" rate of $5,000 Or there is Xpress Pro for FCP comparable prices.

However if you want to live the dream of RAW workflow you want Cineform and Adobe or Scratch.

I will be looking into Cineform when the workflow is officially released, but my interest will be dependant on the transcoding times for RedRAW to Cineform. But I Really like RedCine, though...

Gunleik

[Alex Carr]

So the revolution starts by Apple licensing their operating system for faster workstations. There are boards you can Run OSX on that have 4 sockets for 771 XEON...Dual SLI!!! There are boards with 8 Sockets!! so 16-32 cores and an unlimited operating system that will push the limits on the Hardware. Still the answer does not lie in a single workstation, but a Dragon at the head of the Render Engine will help. I can build three machines that are just as fast as a 4 core Mac Pro for the same price as one Loaded... I can load them even better with Hard Drives, generic hardware... etc... several 8800 768GB DDR3

Just because some of you are skeptical doesn't mean its not true... Just as many people were skeptical about Red One before the first ones started being used. Mac OSX runs better than on a real Mac... I trust it beyond owning a real Mac... We are looking for a cost effective solution... This is the answer... I can build a 10 machine Engine to render out footage at the price of a few Mac Pros... Vanilla kernels now run fine... That means I can update from Apples site without crashing... And they see me as a real Mac. I'm using the same Hardware they are and I have fewer problems and access to ALL Hardware... Not just Apple approved. The battle is just begun... Apple is a software company now just like Microsoft... Their workstations are NOT fast enough...

Apple License your operating system for ALL hardware and stop overcharging the hardware you buy for discount prices... Does it matter if there is a apple on the side of the 10 boxes in the Closet? NO we just want to finish on time!

[Deanan]

Wow, there's more speculation and inaccuracy here than in the Scarlet threads.

We don't have to read or reply to any or all threads on reduser but many of us spend our free time to reply to as many threads as we can. There's no conspiracy to why no one as responded yet... we're busy and haven't gotten to this thread yet.

Apple does not release software as frequently as we do and they are much more conservative about when things get released. This is simply how they function. We have been working with them constantly for the past year and that has only been increasing in scope and pace.

Lastly, the quicktime component does work in 32 bit space when setup in FCP properly.

[Gunleik Groven]

Wow, there's more speculation and inaccuracy here than in the Scarlet threads.

Lastly, the quicktime component does work in 32 bit space when setup in FCP properly.


As to 1: LOL!
I'm not reading those... :)

As to 2: Ok, how?
Or:
How do you NOT throw out all those juicy bits when editing in FCP without going through a DPX/TIFF step (i.e. working natively)

If I have misundertood something big here, I'll be very happy to be corrected.

Gunleik

[Mark L. Pederson]

Lastly, the quicktime component does work in 32 bit space when setup in FCP properly.

nice. so, looking forward to the ability to attach a color look file inside FCP (FXplug?) without making new wrappers.

But it is not possible, for example, to dissolve two shots together in FCP in this component in 32 bit space, correct?


After all ... Adobe Premiere can render a timeline in 32-bit RGB ...

[Phil D]

Wow, there's more speculation and inaccuracy here than in the Scarlet threads.


That's what happens when you go out and leave us kids alone!

[Deanan]

nice. so, looking forward to the ability to attach a color look file inside FCP (FXplug?) without making new wrappers.

But it is not possible, for example, to dissolve two shots together in FCP in this component in 32 bit space, correct? As one could do in After Effects.

FxPlug is not the right place to do it for some functional reasons.
The wrapper is the right place to do it for both speed and quality
reasons.

Only effects/transitions that support 32bit in FCP will work in 32bit. Not all fxplugs or effects do. CrossDissolve does.

[Deanan]

As to 1: LOL!
I'm not reading those... :)

As to 2: Ok, how?
Or:
How do you NOT throw out all those juicy bits when editing in FCP without going through a DPX/TIFF step (i.e. working natively)

If I have misundertood something big here, I'll be very happy to be corrected.

Gunleik

Set the Sequence to full precision YUV in 'Sequence Settings'.

[Gunleik Groven]

But, you're still working from the proxies without full quality debayer?


Gunleik

[Alex Carr]

The proxies also slow the system by using referenced media. If the 2k High proxies were self contained, More systems could play them at real time.

As of now, I see more conversions to other formats at the beginning of the workflow.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Well... You all know my position on this, so I am not going to state it here again. As to the subject matter:

Build 15 / NAB. RED Promised that third parties could jump on after build 15 or NAB. What I don't want to see is that after NAB we get the famous RED "Real soon, just not yet line". 8 hours after NAB I expect third party vendors to get to work, and for RED to welcome it with open arms. As promised.

Once third party vendors like Cineform and others are allowed at the table, I think we'll see the kind of improvements we're looking for.

I love the camera, but the post software is horribly sub-standard. Features don't mean a bit if the thing cannot:

Work on almost every system
Render to any available codec in the system, to the wrapper the client chooses.

Speed is poor, but Cineform already showed us there are ways to make massive improvements there. So I am cool with that.

Main point: I don't worry much about REDCine because it's BETA. It's not supposed to work well yet.. And so I wait... AGAIN

I changed this line after hot chocolate: Macs are alright if that's the way you want to go, but I need more choices, and for me PC offers that. Not saying I won't get into a mac someday, but this whole thing with RED almost made me feel like I was being FORCED into it. That feeling was enough reason alone to hold off, wait for everyone to bring ALL CHOICES to the table (not just one) and then make an informed decision.

We keep saying Scratch and Apple, Scratch and Apple.. I believe, Scratch is a PC program, and it does not give a rat's butt what you edit on. It reads R3D files.. It's a happy camper. They simply make it sound that way cause RED is in bed with Apple, and Scratch is in bed with RED.

I prefer an editing system third parties can "get into". Don't care about the program... Just needs to work, that's all.

Jay

I would be a LOT more worried right now, except that we have seen a preview of what could be.. All will be fine. Just need to wait.... AGAIN

[David Birdy]

[QUOTE=Deanan;154147]FxPlug is not the right place to do it for some functional reasons.
The wrapper is the right place to do it for both speed and quality
reasons.

Deanan,

I agree. If we can get the changes to happen in the "pointers" in the wrapper it's almost "magic". I have been using QuickTime wrappers for audio post for years in an Avid environment....We send the audio to post in QuickTime. They sweeten, then send it back to us. We apply it in the time line and it's done.

Of course video is much more data intensive than audio, especially in the 4K world. The work flow for video is valid as the Avid then resets the data based on the "pointers" in the QuickTime file.

Is this the theory behind your post or did I miss something??

Jay,
I understand your point and agree with you.. but QuickTime may have a real benefit in these two ways.
QuickTime proxies for onset viewing. QuickTime proxies to adjust color & audio.
Then edit in what ever you want as long as it will apply the "pointers" from the QuickTime file.....

Dave

[I Bloom]

I love the camera, but the post software is horribly sub-standard. Features don't mean a bit if the thing cannot:

Work on almost every system
Render to any available codec in the system, to the wrapper the client chooses.


Substandard in comparison to other 4K Raw workflows you've used?

You can't be on the bleeding edge and expect everything to be gravy. If you use an FCP/Quicktime workflow, you could be cutting your Red footage and making money off of your camera today. The extra investment in getting a Mac after having already bought a Red seems to me to be pretty straightforward business. It should ROI before NAB.

IBloom

[Jay A. Kelley]

Substandard in comparison to other 4K Raw workflows you've used?

You can't be on the bleeding edge and expect everything to be gravy. If you use an FCP/Quicktime workflow, you could be cutting your Red footage and making money off of your camera today. The extra investment in getting a Mac after having already bought a Red seems to me to be pretty straightforward business. It should ROI before NAB.

IBloom

That's an interesting point of view, and while I respect it, I also think you're making a flip statment with little or no research into my business and/or market.

Let's look at one small thing.. I notice you are in NY.. Last I checked there was a fair amount of production going on there, when you made your comment were you thinking your home town, or taking into account I am in St. Louis MO? I have, at best 4 features, maybe 6 shot here PER YEAR with any decent budget, and they do not edit in this town. So your ROI before NAB line.. Well, let's just say I don't agree.

And your line about 4k RAW workflow.. Is that supposed to mean something? Are we giving out gold stars for this? I can tell you one thing, the producers I am speaking with don't care about it one bit. Let's take a survey of those people are are "editing" in 4k. I know I'm not. I'm glad it's there for the future, but that's all.

It's gotta work bloom. The expectation should be:

Shoot, hand them the footage with a CD of REDCine and send them on their way. Not make them find out what graphics card their editor's using.

WE may love our toys and spending 20% of our lives on this forum geeking out together, but not our bosses. They want it beautiful, simple, quick, and cheap. The closer we get to these elements, the more mony we make.

In the end I am not worried about my editing system, or cutting footage.. I'm worried about THEIRS. Every single person on this forum that shoots professionally has had to deal with that line: "What format do you shoot on? That one? Oh well we only edit with MiniDV.. Sorry..."

The "Magic" of RED was SUPPOSED to be (When we first heard about it) that you could shoot in 4k and then output to ANY FORMAT, to ANY CODEC. Thereby creating a camera that was "all-world".

The day this happens, we can talk about a good ROI.

I feel RED had lost that direction a little. Believe it or not, I think compatibility should rule over speed.


IMHO

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

That's an interesting point of view, and while I respect it, I also think you're making a flip statment with little or no research into my business and/or market.

Let's look at one small thing.. I notice you are in NY.. Last I checked there was a fair amount of production going on there, when you made your comment were you thinking your home town, or taking into account I am in St. Louis MO? I have, at best 4 features, maybe 6 shot here PER YEAR with any decent budget, and they do not edit in this town. So your ROI before NAB line.. Well, let's just say I don't agree.

And your line about 4k RAW workflow.. Is that supposed to mean something? Are we giving out gold stars for this? I can tell you one thing, the producers I am speaking with don't care about it one bit. Let's take a survey of those people are are "editing" in 4k. I know I'm not. I'm glad it's there for the future, but that's all.

It's gotta work bloom. The expectation should be:

Shoot, hand them the footage with a CD of REDCine and send them on their way. Not make them find out what graphics card their editor's using.

WE may love our toys and spending 20% of our lives on this forum geeking out together, but not our bosses. They want it beautiful, simple, quick, and cheap. The closer we get to these elements, the more mony we make.

In the end I am not worried about my editing system, or cutting footage.. I'm worried about THEIRS. Every single person on this forum that shoots professionally has had to deal with that line: "What format do you shoot on? That one? Oh well we only edit with MiniDV.. Sorry..."

The "Magic" of RED was SUPPOSED to be (When we first heard about it) that you could shoot in 4k and then output to ANY FORMAT, to ANY CODEC. Thereby creating a camera that was "all-world".

The day this happens, we can talk about a good ROI.

I feel RED had lost that direction a little. Believe it or not, I think compatibility should rule over speed.


IMHO

Jay

Jay -

With all due respect, (and I do REALLY like you Jay) - maybe this is not the camera for you and your market.

It is an emerging technology. All things subject to change.

I think there are MANY folks who are better served with an EX1 than Red. As far as I am concerned, based on real-world tests - until I see what Scarlet is all about, I'd shoot RED or EX1.


ALWAYS Red first choice - but if the client just doesn't have the budget - EX1.

And I'd always shoot RED cause I own 'em.

If you are so unhappy, you might just ask Jim for refund.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Speed is poor, but Cineform already showed us there are ways to make massive improvements there. So I am cool with that.

Speed over quality - use the EX1.

All due respect to Cineform guys - I have not tasted the magic Kool-Aid you seemed to have GUZZLED from that company.

I am VERY open-mined - I use the very best tools for the job that I can afford at the time - so, if Cineform can show me speed AND quality - I'll sign right up. I have NOT seen that yet. And I look hard. EVERYWHERE. Somebody wanna show me how amazing Cineform is - I'm not hard to find.

[Sean]

That's an interesting point of view, and while I respect it, I also think you're making a flip statment with little or no research into my business and/or market.

Let's look at one small thing.. I notice you are in NY.. Last I checked there was a fair amount of production going on there, when you made your comment were you thinking your home town, or taking into account I am in St. Louis MO? I have, at best 4 features, maybe 6 shot here PER YEAR with any decent budget, and they do not edit in this town. So your ROI before NAB line.. Well, let's just say I don't agree.

And your line about 4k RAW workflow.. Is that supposed to mean something? Are we giving out gold stars for this? I can tell you one thing, the producers I am speaking with don't care about it one bit. Let's take a survey of those people are are "editing" in 4k. I know I'm not. I'm glad it's there for the future, but that's all.

It's gotta work bloom. The expectation should be:

Shoot, hand them the footage with a CD of REDCine and send them on their way. Not make them find out what graphics card their editor's using.

WE may love our toys and spending 20% of our lives on this forum geeking out together, but not our bosses. They want it beautiful, simple, quick, and cheap. The closer we get to these elements, the more mony we make.

In the end I am not worried about my editing system, or cutting footage.. I'm worried about THEIRS. Every single person on this forum that shoots professionally has had to deal with that line: "What format do you shoot on? That one? Oh well we only edit with MiniDV.. Sorry..."

The "Magic" of RED was SUPPOSED to be (When we first heard about it) that you could shoot in 4k and then output to ANY FORMAT, to ANY CODEC. Thereby creating a camera that was "all-world".

The day this happens, we can talk about a good ROI.

I feel RED had lost that direction a little. Believe it or not, I think compatibility should rule over speed.


IMHO

Jay

I'm glad people are willing to be vocal, like Jay. Because there's always a certain amount of resistance to dissenters, especially since we also know Red is working as hard as they can. But Jim Jannard also invited us to be vocal and honest. And I just can't help being 100% in agreement with Jay. Things get muddled and cloudy over time--waiting two years for a camera it almost becomes hard to remember the reasons I got on board in the first place. But one big reason was the ability to freely transcode to any codec. I believe this is coming. But I'm confused and surprised by the deal with Apple that seems to have slowed this down. The early discussions on here and the original forum threads on DVXuser were very clear about being able to "edit 4K at home." And so for OffHollywood to now state that "Red is just not for you if your client can't afford a Scratch setup" is really off-base for me. I don't think that's the future for Red. I think together with third parties they'll be working these issues out (gosh I hope so). But the revolution I signed up for did not entail buying tens of thousands in new computer equipment for post. The revolution I signed up for was an image with 35mm depth of field with a Nikon lens and footage I could edit at home. Full stop.

[Mark L. Pederson]

And so for OffHollywood to now state that "Red is just not for you if your client can't afford a Scratch setup" is really off-base for me.

I did NOT say that.

[Sean]

I did NOT say that.

True. I should be careful about paraphrasing. You said:

I think there are MANY folks who are better served with an EX1 than Red...if the client just doesn't have the budget - EX1...If you are so unhappy, you might just ask Jim for refund.

I see what you're saying is that if SPEED is an issue in post and that is slowing you down, then go with an EX1. But right now, speed isn't just slowing us down. It's practically preventing us from a low-budget post solution. Practically. Because 3 day render times and limited codec options are an issue. Again, I hope and believe Red has solutions in the pipeline. I think some of us get antsy because we just don't know when. Red probably doesn't know either. The technology is in the process of evolving. But sometimes I feel this is like waiting for that letter from the boyfriend in Australia.

[RivaiC]

Sean, I thought by Cineform, your dream wont be far from "edit at home". You're not limited to Apple tho, don't you agree ?

[Dj Joofa]

If you choose a "Film/DI" route, FCS @ the moment have no advantages compared to any other film/DI workflows, it actually has a disadvantage in that it can't handle 4k - if that's what you want to do.


Gunleik
(Still FCS user...)

If you go the film / DI route, people in Hollywood are not currently using FCP for handling 2k/4k/color grading/etc. They are mostly using it to edit a telecined version of the film for outputting EDL (may be AAfs these days) for conforming negatives, and then DPX scans are gotten from the film negative for any other further work, say color grading.

An interesting book to read on this topic would be "Behind the Seen" on the work of the famous editor Walter Murch, which describes how they edited the $80 million dollar film "Cold Mountain" on FCP -- The first by main-stream Hollywood.

[Phil D]

Everyone is here because they want to shoot the absolute best footage they possibly can. Whether you are a Hollywood veteran, or Indy film-maker, Red gives everyone the chance to produce cinema quality images at a high resolution, (and here is the revolution) at a great price that opens up the market like never before! Bravo Jim and the Red team.

However, the fact is not everyone can afford Scratch, or have budgets to finish in comfy post houses. There needs to be cheaper options for all of Red's user base.
Red Cine and Red Alert are great offerings, and it's brilliant they are free! But the way still needs to be opened up for smaller company's and individuals to explore and develop other, post production work flows for Red. That is coming, I'm sure. But in the meantime, we don't need new gate keepers springing up and bolting on the door to cheaper post work-flows.

[TedRed]

Ted from RED weigh in...

(and this is where my Junior member forum status is very relevant - I'm just not a forum guy, I'm an in person meeting and talking on the phone and face to face guy - and I'm not a hyper-tech guy, I'm more of a big picture strategy guy. It takes all kinds of people and personalities to run a successful enterprise - so please try not to beat me up to hard about my post below.) And I would humbly say that RED has been successful so far in it's early stages of life.

Stirring the pot - Good, Very Good - Finner you should be proud of yourself for complaining loudly and passionately. Not everything is perfect or "done" in RED's world. RED is all about stirring up the Pot. We know what's working and where the soft spots are. And we are listening in many ways when we miss the obvious (and sometimes not so obvious) and work to get them fixed.

Issues with the workflow as it stands - No doubt there is a "marketing and exposure in the world" component to the RED / Apple relationship. We have had a tremendous benefit in people learning about RED first through our exposure via Apple, and then becoming reservation holders, and RED customers.

There is also a considerable amount of engineering work that has occurred and is continuing to occur on the FCP workflow. I would like to hear directly where people are having issues (beyond the well known and always problematic QT issues)

Here's what I see as the advancements with Apple (not perfect yet, but getting there)

1) Ability to drag and drop QT ref movies ( pointing to the native R3D media) directly into FCP and edit them right away, without transcoding or any render time. (other non-tape based "low rez" HD cameras require a transcode to be able to edit them in FCP.

2) Ability to Edit and view HD from the 2k QT ref out of a Kona 3 card, as it is properly cropped to 1080p

3) Unlimited RT mode in FCP for 2k and 1k QT ref movies (remember what is occurring here - we are taking Raw files at high frame rates and decoding them on the fly so they can be edited and viewed in FCP - so the fact that we can't get to a green "safeRT" yet is understandable - that will happen as we continue to optimize the codec and computer CPU power increases.

4) Ability to take a edited piece of the RedCode FCP, process and render using the float engine in FCP to ProRes HQ and achieve a broadcast quality finish. (This is not the best quality we will ever have, that development is continuing as well - but it is quite good) So if you are shooting RED and finishing HD which the vast majority of projects are doing (just as if they would have shot 35mm film, telcineing to HD and finishing HD) You can stay in the Mac Desktop world for all of that)

5) Ability to take an EDL from FCP and bring it into a Scratch system for a DI finish. We are aware that Scratch is in a different price/performance range than FCP, so many camera owners won't have this in their home editing environment. If RED shoots are destined for a finish beyond HD - Scratch has a solid, logical, native workflow to relink files and export them as 2k or 4k files for a filmout or Digital Projection master. For high quality file renders on a recommended configuration, you should see under 5:1 render times for 2k and under 12:1 for 4k. Many post houses have Scratch systems designed to take projects created in desktop editorial and do the finishing work.

So we believe we are doing a fairly good job of offering a logical, sensible workflow for working with RED footage. Less than 2 years ago, the idea of this type of workflow dealing with compressed files for 4k footage and only having to blow them up to the huge uncompressed files at the final stages of project creation, or just for FX shots during the creative work was just a dream - just like an affordable 4k movie camera - so I think the teams at RED, Apple and Assimilate have done an admirable job. (more work to come of course - we never stop pushing the envelope)

We often look at the workflow logic for 4k as it compares to what's required for 35mm film. In the 35mm film world you have the time and cost of the telecine session to HD, and if you are going to a high rez DI from film there are significant non-real time scanning times. We at RED are often discussing what it would take to create a real time High Quality file Render process for real time 2k and 4k files - and it seems to center on for under $75k of cost this can be a reality - so we compare that to the cost of a Telecine bay that only the big post houses can afford, and this starts to become very interesting.

It is public knowledge that we will be opening up RED files to a competitive environment of many post tools of all shapes, sizes and budget ranges in the near future. We, like you believe that there will be a benefit to this in accomplishing the goals of multi-platform viability and different tool sets with different strengths being able to work with RED files more directly. We also are keenly aware of the challenges this will create in RED trying to support so many different options for post, so you will all need some patience and understanding as we move into this next phase. In addition there are a number of projects shot with RED being cut on Avid today - functional and acceptable for those projects to use the same logic they use on film shoots to generate media via Scratch laybacks to 1080p tape and link the ALE and flexfiles to create the offline media properly that will be relinked to the final full quality file renders. More work and info to come on that front as well as we continue to evolve where we are today.

There is much, much more to this - and I could go on much longer regarding all the various options for post and how to deal effectively with RED files. But it's time to head off to Hollywood and put some of what I've been talking about here into practice today, just like everyday - real projects are being created this way.

+ Ted

[Mark L. Pederson]

+ Ted

Thanks Ted.

[RivaiC]

Thank you TED

[Gunleik Groven]

If you go the film / DI route, people in Hollywood are not currently using FCP for handling 2k/4k/color grading/etc. They are mostly using it to edit a telecined version of the film for outputting EDL (may be AAfs these days) for conforming negatives, and then DPX scans are gotten from the film negative for any other further work, say color grading.

But in Norway it's becoming very widespread to finish on the FCP/COLOR bundle... In 2k, though, but from DPX scans as you describe.

But then again, Norway is a small country/market of totally 4.5 mill people and probably one of the highest pr capita Red ratios in the world...

Gunleik

[Phil D]

That's great to hear Ted, thanks for the reassurance.

[Gunleik Groven]

Note to self: Read the rest of the thread before answering :)

Thanks Ted

Gunleik

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay -

With all due respect, (and I do REALLY like you Jay) - maybe this is not the camera for you and your market.

That's not very nice Mark.



It is an emerging technology. All things subject to change.

Do you think I am not aware of that? I've been here a while too.


ALWAYS Red first choice - but if the client just doesn't have the budget - EX1.

Perhaps it's not the budget that's the problem, but my willingness to try to give them what they want rather than what I tell them to want. I call it customer service.


And I'd always shoot RED cause I own 'em.

As do I my friend. In fact keep your eyes on apple.com for the next few days and you will see a little of what I'm doing.


If you are so unhappy, you might just ask Jim for refund.

I would be grateful if you would not attempt to dismiss my points with this line.

Be prepared, I will bang on RED's door and yell from the rooftops every day until they support more operating systems, more codecs and become more compatible with other software until one of two things happen:
1. They do it.
2. Someone else does.

I'm sure Cineform would be happy to show you what they can do, if they were allowed too, but we all know how that movie ended.

This was not a nice post Mark.

Jay

Mark we are friends, but you attempted to dismiss my points as me being "unhappy". I love my camera, but I want more.. I am only requesting that which RED promised when it started. This is not unreasonable. In your own words, I have not drank the "RED COOL-AID" you have, but I love the camera and the company all the same. I feel that I am not alone in my position on this.

What do I love about Cineform? Simple, we needed something and they jumped in to give it to us. They solved a lot of issues and provided a way for me to make a living with existing hardware. Until it was taken away.

What's not to love?

[Dj Joofa]

But then again, Norway is a small country/market of totally 4.5 mill people and probably one of the highest pr capita Red ratios in the world...

Gunleik

That is very interesting. Any thoughts on why?

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

It's probably a big no-no to ask this, and if it is, nobody has to answer, but what happened with Cineform and RED, that people here are hinting at?

I'm going to invest in an Apple editing solution right now, I don't really care for 4k at this point, because I don't have a RED camera, but I think it would be nice if Apple would be (even) more agressive in their approach to making FCP the best editing tool (I know best is subjective, but I mean, working with higher datastreams, gamma issues, quicktime issues, Color issues,...)

[David Newman]

All due respect to Cineform guys - I have not tasted the magic Kool-Aid you seemed to have GUZZLED from that company.

I am VERY open-mined - I use the very best tools for the job that I can afford at the time - so, if Cineform can show me speed AND quality - I'll sign right up. I have NOT seen that yet. And I look hard. EVERYWHERE. Somebody wanna show me how amazing Cineform is - I'm not hard to find.


We look forward to offering both speed and quality when the Red market opens up. Although if you are referring to a demosaic quality based on a 24 hour period, when our very-beta R3D tool effectively had a bug, we have already addressed that. The demosaicing quality is now very good (and still fast) as I showed back in this post http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139204&postcount=86. As the quality of demosaic is a moving target, there will always be some who prefer one look over another, we have since added another 3-4 demosaic filter options (see blog post on the subject http://cineform.blogspot.com/2008/02/demosaicing-aka-de-bayering.html, where I even mention that Graeme helped push us in the right direction.) Technical comparisons are good as it spurs new development, however restating old no longer valid data is not. As for compression quality for post, CineForm is in a very strong position with the only visually lossless compressed DI that supports 4:4:4(4), and we still improving the quality further. For users using want a CineForm workflow, I believe we will exceed their quality performance needs. I hope you will reconsider trying us again when market is opened.

[Chris Kenny]

The stuff about FCP not really doing 10-bit... I don't believe it. Maybe it's easy to accidentally drop back into 8-bit, but it's also quite possible not to. FCP in "High Precision YUV" mode does rendering in a 32-bit float color space. Not for every filter, but for enough. If you're using a 10-bit codec, you'll get 10-bit output. As far as grading, Color certainly supports better than 8-bit. And all the stuff about QuickTime not allowing for accurate color... it doesn't necessarily allow for accurate color when viewing on the desktop, true. If you're outputting though a Kona card or whatever to a real monitor, though, why does that matter?

In light of all of this, there's a completely practical 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p workflow for Red footage available today, with Final Cut Pro. Is it as fast as the workflow for DVCPRO HD or HDV? No. Did anyone really expect the workflow with a 35mm DoF 4K digital cinema camera to be as fast and easy as the workflow for consumer and broadcast cameras, right out of the gate?

There seem to be a bunch of people upset that they can't conveniently do 2K or 4K 4:4:4 at upwards 10 bit color depth in Final Cut Studio. I have to ask, again... what's the actual real-world use case for that? The only deliverables that require finishing at those quality levels are the sort you'd provide for a theatrical release, e.g. DCI packages or 35mm film prints. Who is asking you for those deliverables (which cost a large amount to produce even if you have your final fully-graded sequence already rendered out to DPX files), but isn't willing to pay to have the project conformed in SCRATCH?

Realistically, the vast majority of projects shot on Red will be delivered in HD video formats. With a ProRes workflow you can deliver, today, on fairly modest hardware, any HD video format short of 1080p 4:4:4 HDCAM SR. I'm pretty sure (haven't done testing yet) that with an uncompressed workflow you can deliver anything up to 2K 4:4:4 with FCS, today.

That's all pretty impressive considering the Red One didn't start shipping in volume until a couple of months ago, particularly when you consider how long it sometimes takes NLE vendors to support e.g. new variants of HDV.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jay

Mark we are friends, but you attempted to dismiss my points as me being "unhappy". I love my camera, but I want more.. I am only requesting that which RED promised when it started. This is not unreasonable. In your own words, I have not drank the "RED COOL-AID" you have, but I love the camera and the company all the same. I feel that I am not alone in my position on this.

Jay -

I'll give you call tonight. I apologize for my tone.

Mark

[Mark L. Pederson]

I hope you will reconsider trying us again when market is opened.

I will totally try your stuff when it is released.

[Gunleik Groven]

That is very interesting. Any thoughts on why?

Geeks on oil??

Gunleik

[I Bloom]

Little old me. By the way what does "stir the pot" mean?
Silly? Still no red post yet?

Red is in deep with Apple. And deep non-disclosure is the only way Apple rolls. And have no doubt whatever knowledge a Red employee has about FCP developement they sure as hell aren't going to spout off about it online right before NAB. So the answer to why they aren't piping in, is that they decided to keep their jobs and skip this thread altogether.

Conspiracy?

IBloom

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know, I went round and round with Jim on this issue. While I do not feel an agreement was reached, I do think we reached an understanding.

After NAB I can have what I have asked for, which is 3rd party programs and support by who ever wishes to give it.

So long as the following does not happen I am cool:

I don't want to see a "We're not ready to support 3rd parties yet, give us some time"

Or they start locking up sections of code making real work almost impossible.

The deal is: After NAB, all will be well.

I don't like it, but I am prepared to live with it.

Jay

[Gunleik Groven]

But you still have that CF utility working for you?

Gunleik

[Jay A. Kelley]

But you still have that CF utility working for you?

Gunleik

Only if I were to use build 13.. Which I don't so no, I lost it. It's a problem

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay -

I'll give you call tonight. I apologize for my tone.

Mark

It's perfectly fine Mark... It would not have bothered me if I did not respect you so much

Jay

[planet e]

Realistically, the vast majority of projects shot on Red will be delivered in HD video formats. With a ProRes workflow you can deliver, today, on fairly modest hardware, any HD video format short of 1080p 4:4:4 HDCAM SR.

RED was built as a paradigm buster, so for it to do less than the existing paradigm on the promised platform seems to me like a miss, not a hit.

And Jim has been only tepidly, somewhat supportive of direct 1080p output options from RED, meaning that a workflow supporting the full--even recommended--capabilities of the camera should be baked in, not a $50K add-on. So let's have it.

[Gunleik Groven]

Only if I were to use build 13.. Which I don't so no, I lost it. It's a problem

Jay

Downgrade? Only for the time being?
I guess there are sources for build 13 around.

G

[Casey Green]

Ted from RED weigh in...

Glad you are listening to this. Thanks, Ted.


I love my camera, but I want more.. I am only requesting that which RED promised when it started...


...After NAB I can have what I have asked for, which is 3rd party programs and support by who ever wishes to give it.

So long as the following does not happen I am cool:

I don't want to see a "We're not ready to support 3rd parties yet, give us some time"

Or they start locking up sections of code making real work almost impossible.

The deal is: After NAB, all will be well.

I don't like it, but I am prepared to live with it.

Jay

RED has made NO promises, ever. From day one they have constantly said, "everything is subject to change, count on it."

While they made it pretty obvious that REDCODE/FCS was their primary workflow out of the gate, that in no way makes it necessary for them to support Adobe or Cineform ever. (Even though most believe it would be insane for them not to.)

But the tone of your posts that if RED doesn't release full open compatibility with all platforms by NAB, they have wronged you and did not come through on "promises" seems completely misguided at best.

At least thats how I read it. Please correct me if I mistook you.

[mezmo]

The stuff about FCP not really doing 10-bit... I don't believe it. Maybe it's easy to accidentally drop back into 8-bit, but it's also quite possible not to. FCP in "High Precision YUV" mode does rendering in a 32-bit float color space. Not for every filter, but for enough. If you're using a 10-bit codec, you'll get 10-bit output. As far as grading, Color certainly supports better than 8-bit. And all the stuff about QuickTime not allowing for accurate color... it doesn't necessarily allow for accurate color when viewing on the desktop, true. If you're outputting though a Kona card or whatever to a real monitor, though, why does that matter?

In light of all of this, there's a completely practical 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p workflow for Red footage available today, with Final Cut Pro. Is it as fast as the workflow for DVCPRO HD or HDV? No. Did anyone really expect the workflow with a 35mm DoF 4K digital cinema camera to be as fast and easy as the workflow for consumer and broadcast cameras, right out of the gate?

There seem to be a bunch of people upset that they can't conveniently do 2K or 4K 4:4:4 at upwards 10 bit color depth in Final Cut Studio. I have to ask, again... what's the actual real-world use case for that? The only deliverables that require finishing at those quality levels are the sort you'd provide for a theatrical release, e.g. DCI packages or 35mm film prints. Who is asking you for those deliverables (which cost a large amount to produce even if you have your final fully-graded sequence already rendered out to DPX files), but isn't willing to pay to have the project conformed in SCRATCH?

Realistically, the vast majority of projects shot on Red will be delivered in HD video formats. With a ProRes workflow you can deliver, today, on fairly modest hardware, any HD video format short of 1080p 4:4:4 HDCAM SR. I'm pretty sure (haven't done testing yet) that with an uncompressed workflow you can deliver anything up to 2K 4:4:4 with FCS, today.

That's all pretty impressive considering the Red One didn't start shipping in volume until a couple of months ago, particularly when you consider how long it sometimes takes NLE vendors to support e.g. new variants of HDV.
Hi Chris,
Yes your right, there are a bunch of people here upset because they can't
do 2K from 4K RAW R3d in FCS.
The reason, we need a NLE that can compile, rough conform and grade this
material in a manner that retains most of the quality contained in the original footage then output that for final grade color management and filmout, whatever.
Not everyone on the forum is producing television.
Please take note of that.
If Red puts together some full width sensor magic and produce's a full sensor
2.35/40 :1 wide sreen shooting format, 1080p will be a waste of time.
We don't want FCS to be an IQ and Pablo we just want Apple to step up to the plate and produce a reasonable editing tool for 2K and R3d solid state
acquisition media now. 4K can come later.
Given the hype at NAB 2007 I dont think this is unreasonable
Cheers Mezmo

[Jay A. Kelley]

Glad you are listening to this. Thanks, Ted.



RED has made NO promises, ever. From day one they have constantly said, "everything is subject to change, count on it."

While they made it pretty obvious that REDCODE/FCS was their primary workflow out of the gate, that in no way makes it necessary for them to support Adobe or Cineform ever. (Even though most believe it would be insane for them not to.)

But the tone of your posts that if RED doesn't release full open compatibility with all platforms by NAB, they have wronged you and did not come through on "promises" seems completely misguided at best.

At least thats how I read it. Please correct me if I mistook you.


Nope, you got it. Jim made it crystal clear they will release the software after NAB.

And, as you so correctly put it, why would they NOT. The limitation placed on RED by it's agreements is substaintial.

I make no secrets of my dislike for the way Apple runs some of its business. A fine example is IPhone. FANTASTIC product, and they successfully partnered with one of the WORST cell companies you can find. Apple treats is customers poorly in many ways. They design GREAT products, but use that talent to further their own agenda at the expense of the customer in other ways. I.E. - Great Phone, horrible carrier, and forcing us to use them. That is, if you want their phone. My response: Sorry Apple, you're not telling me what to do, especially when you're telling me to do something stupid.

This same business practice has been used to a lessor extent with RED.

Let me state something that you have not heard me say. I personally think the deal that RED worked with Apple was genius. I remember Apple's Keynote at NAB 07, they were talking about studio, and talking about the various cameras... Up came Panasonic, Sony, and then RED! Then it was online at apple. com.. That was worth it's weight in gold right there. It was a time when perception of RED was still very unstable, and Apple getting behind them was a major coup.

As for further support of RED by Apple, I would not be surprised if additional support was given a deadline of the next NAB. And it could be contingint on a minimum number of cameras successfully shipped. At least that's what I would have put in the agreement.

Adobe is hanging on, and it's working hard to redefine itself. It carries some brands that are all-world (After Effects, Photoshop). While I may not think it's the best editing system out there, it is strong, and does not look like it's going away anytime soon..

My personal favorite is Vegas (I know I know.. And no I am not smoking anything). To me the nightmare of editing is not picture... It's sound, and Vegas is AMAZING the way it handles sound.

Final Cut is a good editing system, and it's managed to become a standard. But it's just a tool, that's all. It's the hands of the artist that make it worthwhile, so the edit system just becomes a matter of taste. For CERTAIN size projects. If you get into the larger budgets, then the reasons to use Final Cut increase quickly. For smaller projects that will mostly be done in house, I think premiere/cineform combo is a great choice for reasons I will state later.

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

I got my camera about two weeks before Build 14 came out. It was not a lot of time, but enough to try out "my system" before 14 released and vaproized it.

Guys, it was amazing. I was just thrilled at how simple it was.

First: Cineform is a great Codec. It looks amazing, and runs REAL-TIME in premiere. You heard me.. REAL TIME. But that's not what matters to me.

What matters is the file itself.

I shot some footage, then placed it on my hard drive and converted it to a Cineform HD 4:4:4 file (Damn fast too, I might add). I did not do a one light... Did not need to. All the color correction bit depth I would need is right there in my file.

You see? I am actually ON-LINING with my master files. There's no going back later and using an EDLs to pull files off REDCine for color correction. I can use the Cineform file through-out the entire process. So I edit in Premiere, then color correct in Finesse (Good program.. Very stable.. Slow). Then output the movie as needed.

I loved it. For a small producer whos doing music videos, commercials, and short films with almost all the work being done in house, this is a godsend. My clients were impressed as well.

I am counting the days until it comes back!

:)

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

Nope, you got it. Jim made it crystal clear they will release the software after NAB.

Jay - as I already put myself in the dog house with you ... I'm going to plead the "lack of sleep" defense -

I am only curious here -

Was this "crystal clear" in a private conversation you had with Jim? Or is there a link?

What do you define as "release the software"?? - what does that mean? Do you mean REDCODE'S debayer? Or something else?

I am confused - this is not crystal clear to me -

[Casey Green]

Jay,

Interesting replies, but I still don't see how you come up with the idea that RED has promised you anything. Oh well. I don't see this changing any time soon... We'll see where things stand in a couple of months.

All the best to you with your projects.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay - as I already put myself in the dog house with you ... I'm going to plead the "lack of sleep" defense -

I am only curious here -

Was this "crystal clear" in a private conversation you had with Jim? Or is there a link?

What do you define as "release the software"?? - what does that mean? Do you mean REDCODE'S debayer? Or something else?

I am confused - this is not crystal clear to me -

Here's what I could find Mark:

We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. - Jim

Our goal for REDCODE, when we are done, is to present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access. That includes Cineform and other 3rd parties. - Jim

I don't hear well, but I can read just fine.. And this seems pretty clear to me!

Your friend

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

Here's what I could find Mark:

We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. - Jim

Our goal for REDCODE, when we are done, is to present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access. That includes Cineform and other 3rd parties. - Jim

I don't hear well, but I can read just fine.. And this seems pretty clear to me!

Your friend

Jay

Cool. Thanks.

PS - IF that happens (things do change when everything is subject to change), then I'd place my bets on ADOBE providing cross platform support DIRECTLY from REDCODE across their whole product line. Something to think about.

[Finner]

Here is a post I put up earlier this afternoon when Fred was upset over having to choose to shoot a comercial with a 35mm camera when he wanted to shoot with RED but could not because of the poor post production options. It fits pretty well here and are my thoughts and suspicions on the whole thing


Hi Fred

Yes red post is a major concern right now. Below is the theory from what I have been able to piece together over the last few days as I have thought on why red post is such a disapointment.

1. Red teams up with Apple. (We know this to be true)

2. Apple announces big red NLE promises at NAB. (we know this to be true)

3. Apple pretty much implements squat for red support in there NLE and does nothing new for the last 10 months.(Judge for yourself how good the apple/red NLE system is.)

4.Cineform trys to get into the game but are shut down due to what Jim calls "legal" reasons. Also other NLE companies are chomping at the bit to get in. Jim mentions he will open up red to other NLE companies after NAB. (What I see here is some kind of contract for red to be exclusive with apple until NAB /08. Would have been nice if apple would have actually done something for us durring this exclusive contract. Also if I am correct with this thinking it really screwed up other NLE companies from having solutions for us now. Competition ALWAYS brings out the best products and in this case I see competition being shut out, not a good thing. I also believe that RED was the little guy here but was expecting more out of this apple partnership deal and have been yanked around a by them. It is clear to see that the success of red cameras is very dependant on a good NLE workflow. ******Please note this is all speculation.*******)

So now we are stuck in Limbo waiting for NAB 08 and hopefully some solutions. Not a good place to be in and we find ourselves in situations like Fred where we want to shoot red but have to go another route only because of one thing POST PRODUCTION. This is a real big issue people and we need to speak loud about it.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Cool. Thanks.

PS - IF that happens (things do change when everything is subject to change), then I'd place my bets on ADOBE providing cross platform support DIRECTLY from REDCODE across their whole product line. Something to think about.

I'm going to trust Jim on this.. He says NAB and I believe him.. We're not talking about the camera in this case.

I have a little experience with Adobe due to my dealings with Newtek (Horrible experience). Adobe does NOT support Codecs directly, but allows third party vendors to get into the software so that they can.

Besides, I would still need a good codec for the adobe products, and as you know, I've got that Cineform Kool-Aid in me! :)

In other words, it would be RED that would supply the plug in for Premiere, After Effects etc to read the file.

I am NOT 100% sure on this, but I am somewhat sure.

Jay

[David Wilson]

Jay,
I just want to say thanks for your eloquent rants. I’m with a museum making documentaries and we are very much counting on the exact CineForm/AE/Premiere workflow you have described. Earlier versions of this workflow have worked beautifully for us and our projects since CineForm entered the fray. I suspect you speak for many of us.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm going to trust Jim on this.. He says NAB and I believe him.. We're not talking about the camera in this case.

I have a little experience with Adobe due to my dealings with Newtek (Horrible experience). Adobe does NOT support Codecs directly, but allows third party vendors to get into the software so that they can.

Besides, I would still need a good codec for the adobe products, and as you know, I've got that Cineform Kool-Aid in me! :)

In other words, it would be RED that would supply the plug in for Premiere, After Effects etc to read the file.

I am NOT 100% sure on this, but I am somewhat sure.

Jay

Yes. All the Adobe apps have SKDs you can download. If Red wants to go there - they can. Directly.

[Chris Kenny]

The reason, we need a NLE that can compile, rough conform and grade this
material in a manner that retains most of the quality contained in the original footage then output that for final grade color management and filmout, whatever.

See, now this is what I just don't get. What kind of project desperately needs a film-out but doesn't have the budget to conform on SCRATCH, or even use an uncompressed 2K workflow with FCS?

[Chris Kenny]

RED was built as a paradigm buster, so for it to do less than the existing paradigm on the promised platform seems to me like a miss, not a hit.

It's not unusual for paradigm shifts to be a little rocky toward the beginning because others haven't caught up.

[Finner]

It's not unusual for paradigm shifts to be a little rocky toward the beginning because others haven't caught up

Its one thing for others not to be able to catch up. It's a complete other not even allowing them to race. Apple is in a race with no one on this, guess how they are doing? I think apple may have stopped at the side of the road for a little 10month nap.

[Edgar Pitts]

We look forward to offering both speed and quality when the Red market opens up. Although if you are referring to a demosaic quality based on a 24 hour period, when our very-beta R3D tool effectively had a bug, we have already addressed that. The demosaicing quality is now very good (and still fast) as I showed back in this post http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139204&postcount=86. As the quality of demosaic is a moving target, there will always be some who prefer one look over another, we have since added another 3-4 demosaic filter options (see blog post on the subject http://cineform.blogspot.com/2008/02/demosaicing-aka-de-bayering.html, where I even mention that Graeme helped push us in the right direction.) Technical comparisons are good as it spurs new development, however restating old no longer valid data is not. As for compression quality for post, CineForm is in a very strong position with the only visually lossless compressed DI that supports 4:4:4(4), and we still improving the quality further. For users using want a CineForm workflow, I believe we will exceed their quality performance needs. I hope you will reconsider trying us again when market is opened.

Hey David. Thanks for the update. There are lots of people looking forward to a Red/Cineform/CS3 workflow. Keep up the good work.

Edgar

[Billy Summers]

Its one thing for others not to be able to catch up. It's a complete other not even allowing them to race. Apple is in a race with no one on this, guess how they are doing? I think apple may have stopped at the side of the road for a little 10month nap.

Don't candy coat it brother, this is the RED forum, jsut tell us how you really feel!

[Poi Boy]

Ain't over till the fat lady shows up..I wouldn't count Apple out just yet. It is still early in the game.
Aloha
-A

[Lucas Wilson]

Its one thing for others not to be able to catch up. It's a complete other not even allowing them to race. Apple is in a race with no one on this, guess how they are doing? I think apple may have stopped at the side of the road for a little 10month nap.

Hey guys,

[warning - rant on]

I humbly submit that most of the people on Reduser have *no idea* how much time, effort, and work Apple, Assimilate, and RED have put into this.

I've spent time with RED. Ted and I have spent a lot of time together across several continents talking about workflow and agonizing over how to maximize workflow advantages for RED customers. I've spent many days with Jim, Deanan, Jarred, Rob, Graeme, and the rest of the RED crew working out problems and trying to predict the future. There is almost always a lot on the line. If you think Peter Jackson and Stephen Soderbergh as clients sounds glamorous, you should talk to Deanan about the accomodation conditions in rural Spain, or Jarred about passport requirements in New Zealand. An amazing thing to me is that they take a call from a customer with camera #575 (whoever you are. :) ) as seriously as they do a call from Soderbergh. They really do.

I have kept most personal interaction I have and ASSIMILATE has with the RED team to a minimum, because it is rarely relevant. But now it is. Let me give you a window into my perspective:

1) The RED team spend pretty much all day, every day thinking of how to maximize their customers' investments. I'm not sure I've ever met a group of people as personally invested in their customers and their customers' opinions. Suggesting some kind of dark conspiracy of exclusivity among Apple, ASSIMILATE, and RED is ludicrous. It is *all* about how to keep images at their utmost. It's about how to keep the images pure and consistent, so that there arent a bozillion solutions out there, each one with varying and different results.

2) Anybody who has ever dealt with Apple on a corporate level knows the level of madness they insert into keeping cards close to the vest. Have you *ever* seen an Apple employee speaking out of turn on a public forum remain an Apple employee for very long? There are very good reasons for this. To suggest that Apple is not paying attention, or doesn't care, or isn't watching and reading REDUSER is silly. The conspiracy theories and grumbling are demoralizing and tiring.

3) Why do people assume their solution has to exist right now? I spend a lot of my time at facilities who have *working* RED workflows. People who are gutting it out and putting their asses on the line taking jobs, cranking through the issues, creating workarounds where workaround need to happen, and getting it done. Will very efficient Avid and Adobe workflows ever exist? I'm sure they will. But those weren't the first to the table. Such is life. Move on.

To draw an analogy... ever tried to do an Online on a PC from an Offline generated with DVCProHD QT on FCP? Oops... you can't. If you can't (or don't want to) figure it out, is that Apple's fault?

I suffered through the early days of HDCAM, D5, and P2 as an Online Editor. Anybody who thinks that those workflows at this stage of development were easier or smoother than where RED is right now has a very short memory. Four YEARS after HDCAM was released, I was still explaining to some Offline Editors why their 30fps EDLs weren't going to conform accurately. Three YEARS after D5 was released, I was still agonizing over the stupid little tabs on the bottom of tapes that switched them from 4-channel to 8-channel mode.

In my industry experience, this is - by far - the most production and development cycle I have seen in such a sophisticated tool.

Every day, RED faces the challenge of, "well, should we or shouldn't we release this? How will it affect our customers?" You can't please all the people all the time. But most of the time, I think they choose pretty well.

YMMV.

[rant off]

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Dylan Reeve]

Lucas - Thanks for your comments.

What I've seen pointed out, and have repeated on a number of occasions is that Apple and Assimilate are essentially beta-testers with RED. They (you) are working with RED at a stage where it's still very much in development. By reducing the number of partners involved at this stage, RED can be more drastic with their modifications and improvements, without having to worry about delayed implementation in a variety of supporting applications.

In return RED seem to have benefited from the technical expertise of those partners (from Assimilate especially in the crafting of REDCINE, thanks Lucas). And users of all applications will benefit from the work of those partner down the line.

That said, I am hankering as much as anyone for Avid support for RED... So it can't come soon enough for me. And also hankering for a time in the future where I can feel the SCRATCH love. One day.

[Finner]

Hi Lucas

Rants are good, in fact great and very appreciated. From a consumer side I am facing 75% camera is great don't want to touch the post workflow from producers. Selling red as a good choice to shoot with is very, very dificult right now to say the least. I am very glad you posted this and even though I was very aggressive I feel it is worth it to get some attention on this. If a reasonably priced post workflow is not here soon there will be a lot of red paper weights on peoples desks as we will be forced to shoot film or tape options. This I feel is a concern of red owners and red alike. Hope you did not take my posts to much to heart just wanted to catch yours and apples ears. I am not an apple hater in fact I am posting this from my MAC right now and if apple can do what they promised at NAB/07 it would be a nice start

cheers
Daren

[Cam Crowley]

Thanks Lucas

Nice to actually have some words of wisdom on this thread.

(to some) People: try embracing the word 'work-around' - you may find you can do a lot more than you currently think is possible.

And its only going to get better.

Early days currently and I believe the future will be bright (just remember to protect those highlights!)

M2C

Cam

[David Birdy]

WOW Lucas I hope you feel better NOW !! LOL

We should "all" be friends here..and yes I've worked some real "glamour" shows that have really bad accommodations anybody in this bis for more than a few years knows that....so there is truly no place like home.:ohmy:

I have never heard anyone on this thread question the dedication from the RED team.....much to the contrary… we all know this is a special project with great people......

It's great to have your perspective... It would be even better if you could point out the types of workflows that are working and give some type of transcode time with them...We are all here on the bleeding edge and some days the blood is thick...thanks for your input and we look forward to your workflow examples to help us along!

Dave

[Phil D]

I don't think Red needs to, nor should it even try to support every post workflow.
I don't see a problem if Red ends up with an official list of support partners like, Apple, Assimilate, and hopefully two or three others. That would be good. Users would know where they stand.

But allowing other third party's the chance to developer codecs out side the official partners is not going to hurt. Look at it this way. Other company's are at this moment preparing alternative lens mounts, grip systems, and other such hardware add-ons for use with Red, without restrictions, why should software be treated any differently?

Allowing enterprise in this area can only be to the benefit of all the Red user base.


*edited for typos......ok, spelling mistakes.

[Dylan Reeve]

Certainly no one is expecting RED to do the grunt work on getting support in other apps, but they have committed to making their codec available to developers for integration, and that's what we're waiting on.

Once it's available (in whatever form) then Avid and Adobe and Cineform, and whoever else, can start to implement RED support in their applications. This makes those applications valuable to their users, and makes the RED system more valuable to those who want to work in those systems.

[Frank Weeks]

It would be even better if you could point out the types of workflows that are working and give some type of transcode time with them...We are all here on the bleeding edge and some days the blood is thick


This is a great point. Many of us seem to be on hold, until me can make a decision on the best workflow and what computer (built or bought.. PC or Mac) will suit that software best.

This thread has done a good job in getting these issues out in the open.

Thank's to Darren for getting it started and all those who have contributed.

Frank

[BigLu]

Its like BETA VER 1 everywhere on everything right now.
Why freaking out???
people act like they have never bought anything in version 1.0
Its so young and not even out a year yet.

Give them at least a moment to get things out for over a year at least.

It was said it could never be done. PERIOD
And then for under $100K
theres just absolutely no possible way.
This Sunglass company is going to try to WHAT??
No way not even multi Billion dollar companies like SONY or PANASONIC can do it. If it were possible they would have done it first.

So for any of you who did not know this.
That's what it was like a NAB the first years it was announced out of that tent. People TALKED SHIT.
"Noooo way there never gonna get that camera out theres no way its all bull shit."

"ITS VAPERWARE."
its no different than the Trinity, or VideoFlyer, or any other product lots of hype, lots of what it will do and never ever deliver or work.

Well check it out ITS WORKING. Is it perfect? NO ITS FLIPPING BETA ver 1
when does anything work in BETA ver 1 perfectly

Give this a moment to get worked out.
Camera , software, programs work flows, everything is gonna need a moment.

FCP started to seem sweet at ver 4.5
Premiere at about ver 5
AE at about ver 5
Motion is at ver 3 starting to look cool is bet will make more breakthroughs.
Color ver 1.0 you can tell is gonna get better.
compressor ver 3 pretty sweet.
DVDSP ver 3 was nice
So maybe they deserve a benefit of a doubt for the company that was told they will never be able to make this camera in the first place.

I look forward to ver. 2 and even better yet 3 in software.

[Phil D]

Its like BETA VER 1 everywhere on everything right now.
Why freaking out???

FCP started to seem sweet at ver 4.5
Premiere at about ver 5
AE at about ver 5
Motion is at ver 3 starting to look cool is bet will make more breakthroughs.
Color ver 1.0 you can tell is gonna get better.
compressor ver 3 pretty sweet.
DVDSP ver 3 was nice
So maybe they deserve a benefit of a doubt for the company that was told they will never be able to make this camera in the first place.


So let me get this right, you saying we should all just chill for the next 5 to 6 years until v5 is out and then everything will be sweet?
I have a feeling if Red had this attitude there would be no camera.

Were not attacking Red, BigLu, this thread is about making our feelings and concerns known that we would like other alternatives, supported or not, to the FCP work-flow.

Granted, come NAB, we may be shown to have been talking a lot unnecessery hot air, but its our right to talk nonsense if we so wish, just as you have the right also...it seems.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Yes. All the Adobe apps have SKDs you can download. If Red wants to go there - they can. Directly.

You know Mark, that's pretty cool if you think about it. RED could customize Adobe to their needs with their software much deeper than they are doing now.

Adobe does have some strenghts I guess.

Jay

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Its like BETA VER 1 everywhere on everything right now.
Why freaking out???
people act like they have never bought anything in version 1.0
Its so young and not even out a year yet.

Give them at least a moment to get things out for over a year at least.

It was said it could never be done. PERIOD
And then for under $100K
theres just absolutely no possible way.
This Sunglass company is going to try to WHAT??
No way not even multi Billion dollar companies like SONY or PANASONIC can do it. If it were possible they would have done it first.

So for any of you who did not know this.
That's what it was like a NAB the first years it was announced out of that tent. People TALKED SHIT.
"Noooo way there never gonna get that camera out theres no way its all bull shit."

"ITS VAPERWARE."
its no different than the Trinity, or VideoFlyer, or any other product lots of hype, lots of what it will do and never ever deliver or work.

Well check it out ITS WORKING. Is it perfect? NO ITS FLIPPING BETA ver 1
when does anything work in BETA ver 1 perfectly

Give this a moment to get worked out.
Camera , software, programs work flows, everything is gonna need a moment.

FCP started to seem sweet at ver 4.5
Premiere at about ver 5
AE at about ver 5
Motion is at ver 3 starting to look cool is bet will make more breakthroughs.
Color ver 1.0 you can tell is gonna get better.
compressor ver 3 pretty sweet.
DVDSP ver 3 was nice
So maybe they deserve a benefit of a doubt for the company that was told they will never be able to make this camera in the first place.

I look forward to ver. 2 and even better yet 3 in software.

Not that I disagree with your post in general, but AE mature at about version 5? Come on, 3.1 was a milestone and rock solid IMHO...

[Alex Carr]

Quad Socket Xeon, 16 cores, when the software demands better hardware than Apple is selling. Possibly 3/4 of the way or more to 4k uncompressed. Final cut pro will take 4k uncompressed in 10 bit right now, its no where near realtime, but 2k is. Apple cant make money off of a system with that kind of power, It may be a server but its more in the area of a single cost-effective workstation for Red workflows under both Windows and Mac OS X.

There is absolutely nothing wrong (except legality) with running OSX on a PC, some of you think its unreliable... But who do you think is developing the drivers and kernels to make it happen? Currently employed and EX-APPLE DEVELOPERS, not meager software hackers... there is more technical support for Mac OS X on forum.insanelymac.org than on Apples site.

Final Cut Pro is a good tool, the hardware that it runs on is not, that is the problem, Hardware not software. We are looking for an alternative,

[Lucas Wilson]

WOW Lucas I hope you feel better NOW !! LOL

...

It's great to have your perspective... It would be even better if you could point out the types of workflows that are working and give some type of transcode time with them...We are all here on the bleeding edge and some days the blood is thick...thanks for your input and we look forward to your workflow examples to help us along!

Dave

I do feel better, thanks. :)

As far as workflows I see working - sure, I can do that. But it's not going to be anything revelatory or revolutionary. It's just the tools that are out right now that everyone knows about. I should mention that the following workflows are ones that I have seen *working* in production. This is not theory, but rather real facilities doing real post-production for real projects. If you have specific questions about any of these workflows, please ask.

1) FCP -> SCRATCH.
Pretty self-explanatory. Cut on FCP, either with REDCODE, or through log-and-transfer to ProRes. Make sure that timecodes are maintained, and then the conform process is very straightforward. Color and finish on SCRATCH and output.

2) FCP -> SCRATCH -> iQ/DaVinci/etc.
In this case, SCRATCH is used as "middleware" to conform an EDL, and then export DPX files with embedded timecode for an existing finishing system.

3) R3D -> MetaCheater -> Avid -> SCRATCH
MetaCheater creates ALE files with proper timecodes that can then be batch imported as master clips. The name of the game with editorial, whether FCP, Avid, Premiere, Vegas, whatever is to get clips in that match the timecode tracks in the R3D files. Once that happens, then it is a pretty standard editorial and conform process.

4) FCP (or Avid) -> REDCINE -> Finish System X
Editorial generates a list. A custom app generates REDCINE XML that is then used to generate what is essentially an A-mode sort in REDCINE. REDCINE exports DPX files with embedded timecode for a finishing system.

OK... now... Transcode times...

Instead of me posting stuff, I've got a better idea. This community is probably the single biggest data source of people implementing RED workflows. Why don't YOU time renders and post them? It can easily turn into a sticky, the same way that log files are. Pick a couple of test clips from RedRelay, establish some base testing parameters, time some renders and post those times along with logfiles! That will give everybody a view of what systems process clips with what timings. Just make sure that everyone follows basic protocols, i.e.: no other apps running, no virus-scan or other "stupid stuff" that takes up system resources, same version of REDCINE (or FCP or SCRATCH or whatever...)

Cheers,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[mezmo]

See, now this is what I just don't get. What kind of project desperately needs a film-out but doesn't have the budget to conform on SCRATCH, or even use an uncompressed 2K workflow with FCS?
For a final conform in a good system that can also grade and manage color
for film out we are looking around $25K a pop(conform). Another $25K for a grade.
These days it starts and takes upwards of $300-500K to buy a film into each distribution
market, Cameras like Red, Desktop post solution that can save on a post
budget help find this kind of marketing and distribution money for low budget projects.
Being able to conform R3d on a desktop NLE like FCS WOULD save money.
Scratch at about 50-75K is expensive for a conform tool and R3d file manager. Few people on this forum would have the skills to grade on Scratch for film out let alone the additional equipment needed.
So it would be mostly used for Conform at $50-75K a pop.
ATM uncompressed 2K workflow on FCS is incomplete,inconsistant, limited and slow. (Glue Tools may help this a little at NAB 08)
I think all projects looking for theatricial release desperatly need a film
out, on low budget projects this can be a struggle, like finding marketing money.
We just want a little bit of extra love from Apple with R3d & 2K, just a little.
give us a sign................... APPLE.
Mezmo

[fightordie]

Love the fact that all can voice their concerns on a forum where people are listening. Since real quantities have just recently shipped isn't it really too early to trash any company for not keeping up.

Just for reference it took over a year for Panasonic to get a mac viewer for the HVX200 and all this love for Adobe makes me laugh. As a very early Premiere user I remember that Adobe abandoned that program for 2 years before they decided to support it again, after I had spent hard earned cash for upgrades, pc's, output cards. They didn't care about their user base. Adobe left me adrift and thats when I went to Apple. I never looked back because its been a great experience and with time I'm sure Apple will step up. Color was final touch, it cost thousands now bundled with a whole system thats very affordable for what it does. The speed with which they offered it to us was fast in the scheme of things.

[Leo Ticheli]

Just received an email; Apple breakfast meeting to receive, "update on Apple solutions and technologies for Broadcast and Post Production. You'll hear the latest about innovative new workflows featuring Apple's latest Professional Applications and Mac hardware."

Sounds like good news to me...

Best regards to all,

Leo

[M Most]

For a final conform in a good system that can also grade and manage color
for film out we are looking around $25K a pop(conform). Another $25K for a grade.
These days it starts and takes upwards of $300-500K to buy a film into each distribution
market

Are you talking about equipment purchase and talent to run it, or are you talking about facility charges for conform, color correction, and deliverable creation? Because if you're talking about the latter, your numbers are very high unless you're going to a facility like Technicolor, EFilm, or Company 3. There are many independent DI companies that turn out very competitive product for much less than the numbers you're quoting. Disclaimer: I work for one.



Scratch at about 50-75K is expensive for a conform tool and R3d file manager.

You need to speak to Lucas or someone else at Assimilate if you think that's the base cost of a conform-only Scratch system.

[Jay A. Kelley]

3) Why do people assume their solution has to exist right now? I spend a lot of my time at facilities who have *working* RED workflows. People who are gutting it out and putting their asses on the line taking jobs, cranking through the issues, creating workarounds where workaround need to happen, and getting it done. Will very efficient Avid and Adobe workflows ever exist? I'm sure they will. But those weren't the first to the table. Such is life. Move on.

Lucas Wilson


The rant is fine, but I gotta stop you here pal. First off, I am not ASSUMING anything about my solution. I've seen it, I've worked with it, and it's fantastic. It was just taken away.

And I gotta tell ya, I'm not too happy that this solution was possible and no one from RED or anywhere else told me it was out there. Information was being seriously minipulated in order to drive business in one direction. I'm fine with that, after all it's typical Apple, but it's also why they do not have my loyality, Apple I mean.

With this in mind, I can imagine Cineform is not liked at all by you guys right now, but they are heros in my book. They showed us the future and what's possible, thank God someone did. At the time I had no idea renders could be that fast, I was seriously worried.


As for telling me/us to "move on" cause we don't want to work with Apple right now... Well, I'll just ignore that cause you warned us this was a rant and perhaps that was said in the heat of the moment.

Yes people are using Apple and Scratch Luki. And there are many who don't. They signed on to RED with the concept of an "all-world" camera, not an Apple / Scratch camera. I would suggest not dissing these people because they are not willing to go the direction that RED is ever so gently nudgeing them (Sarcasm? Yes).

I would also point out that I re-read this thread, and NO ONE here is downing your product. In fact I believe I stated that Scratch can work with ANY OS, it just happens to be pushing Apple right now because RED is. That's fine. Not wanting what you are selling is not the same as not liking it. I would be willing to bet that if Scratch full-blown were less than $5,000.00 you would be slammed right now, but that's not your business model, so you're selling to those who make sense for what you sell. Fair enough.

For the record, I like Final Cut too, always have, don't like the hardware (Someone else said this as well)

For one product to work for one group and not another does NOT make it a bad product. I don't like this advasarial atmosphere that been set up by RED and their current partners. This was also something has changed but was NOT in the original plans for RED. RED was supposed to be about openness and support others to make their product better, but what I am seeing is a very different atmosphere, and that really hurts. Can't we all just get along? David Newman speaks fondly of Graeme and RED in all his posts on multiple sites, but we never feel the love in this house. Sad..

For the record, I am not some Cineform lover here. To me Cineform is a symbol (And a workflow solution I like). It represents the better third party companies that are out there, just waiting to make RED 1000x better than it is (Stealing some of Finner's bling here). And NO I AM NOT INSULTING RED. But once again let's look at the cineform example: Codecs... It's ALL THEY DO... It's ALL THEY'VE DONE. So they should be the best at it (they better be, or they are not long for this world!). There are companies smaller than RED who live and die with ONE product, and it's all they think about night and day. RED has 100 balls in the air at any one time, that can be tough.

Element Technica is another good example, but they proceed with the blessings of RED most likely because RED is in a profit sharing / business relationship with them. That was a good move.

Go back to the originoal posts, before RED was close to release, look at the respect and mutual cooperation that was evident then, it made us stronger. We need that back.

Luki, you, the RED team, and yes even Apple a little I imagine, are doing a fantastic job. As you have said, you had to pick your direction, and it worked, for a lot of people, but not all of them. That said, those of us who were not served by the decisions of the current team are simply waiting for more solutions rather than to jump on board purchasing the offerings that are on the table at this time.

Jay

[Fredrik Harreschou]

For a final conform in a good system that can also grade and manage color
for film out we are looking around $25K a pop(conform). Another $25K for a grade.
These days it starts and takes upwards of $300-500K to buy a film into each distribution
market, Cameras like Red, Desktop post solution that can save on a post
budget help find this kind of marketing and distribution money for low budget projects.
Being able to conform R3d on a desktop NLE like FCS WOULD save money.
Scratch at about 50-75K is expensive for a conform tool and R3d file manager. Few people on this forum would have the skills to grade on Scratch for film out let alone the additional equipment needed.
So it would be mostly used for Conform at $50-75K a pop.
ATM uncompressed 2K workflow on FCS is incomplete,inconsistant, limited and slow. (Glue Tools may help this a little at NAB 08)
I think all projects looking for theatricial release desperatly need a film
out, on low budget projects this can be a struggle, like finding marketing money.
We just want a little bit of extra love from Apple with R3d & 2K, just a little.
give us a sign................... APPLE.
Mezmo

I don't get it. Do you want to conform and grade the feature you just put a lot of money and hopefully effort into, in FCS? And while only a few people (according to you) would be able to grade a feature in Scratch for theatrical release, that wouldn't be a problem in FSC? If anything, Scratch is made for DI. FSC is not. And what about "the additional equipment needed"? Like what? A projector? Panels for the colorist? And you don't need that if you use FCS?

And what about the time involved? Are "you" for free? Time is money for most professionals.

I believe the main difference between six figure systems (Scratch included) and four figure systems is feedback and having a responsive and creative environment. It's truly an amazing difference when you experience it.

[laguun]

Hey guys,
[warning - rant on]
I humbly submit that most of the people on Reduser have *no idea* how much time, effort, and work Apple, Assimilate, and RED have put into this.

Hey Luki,

i do, believe me, i do.

I have been involved deep enough in discreet logics r&d, alpha at kinetix (yeah, i have still a copy of 3ds max -alpha- 0.17 sitting here), matrox hardware design cycles and the sony bvm 20F class 1 HD serial nr. 0000002 led to some interesting talks with sony in 2001/2 ...

Supervising several aspects in R&D at cinegy in 1997 i learned much of the tao of programming and r&d, as "you can have 9 women but won´t get the baby in the month" or "we can build a shopping mall into the plane, chances that it will still fly afterwards however are lower then...) etc.

You´ve earned your right to rant well, the dedication you put in the products is excellent, and going from a few seats as scratch to a general osx/win application with 10.000s of users as redcine is quality assurance out of hell.



I've spent many days with Jim, Deanan, Jarred, Rob, Graeme, and the rest of the RED crew working out problems and trying to predict the future. An amazing thing to me is that they take a call from a customer with camera #575 (whoever you are. :) ) as seriously as they do a call from Soderbergh.

I agree.

Yesterday, i had to call red and reaction was swift, all problems solved, even some time for some general information and considerations. That in the middle of what must be a maelstroem of delivery logistics.

That people like jim actually read & respond here is customer relation ship management of the future become reality. in 19 years in the industry i have never seen anything quite like it.



1) The RED team spend pretty much all day, every day thinking of how to maximize their customers' investments. . Suggesting some kind of dark conspiracy of exclusivity among Apple, ASSIMILATE, and RED is ludicrous. It is *all* about how to keep images at their utmost. It's about how to keep the images pure and consistent, so that there arent a bozillion solutions out there, each one with varying and different results.

Here are 3 points where many people disagree, including me.
1) "It is *all* about how to keep images at their utmost." That, sadly, isn´t true for editing red footage.
FCP doesn´t have
- the necessary resolution, its resolution is to low for red
- the necessary colorprecision, rgb is 8bit, reds camera quality is higher
- the correct colorspace/model, as only yuv is floating point precision.
Now, that wouldn´t be an issue if that would be state of the art, but:
There are -many- solutions out there who can and do guarantee utmost image quality and edit, in all priceranges, from deskop (as adobe) to workstation (avid ds) to herosuite/conforming server (as northlight/clipster).

If these manufacturers wouldn´t want to support red, it would also be different, but they all are -working- to support red but aren´t allowed to do so - yet.

Compare FCS to, say, adobe cs3, which has -all- of this: RGB, 15/16bit, at 4K and additionally is crossplatform.

2) "The RED team spend pretty much all day, every day thinking of how to maximize their customers' investments." I believe that, however they were only successful for the camera, not for the postproduction. My avids, discreets, sonys, adobe decklinks etc - investments in the $.$$$.$$$ range - aren´t protected (yet). Things are getting much better now, that red will open their codec and introduced a cli - but maximizing my investments in avid or discreet certainly was no priority at red - yet.

3) Suggesting some kind of dark conspiracy of exclusivity among Apple, ASSIMILATE, and RED is ludicrous.
There -is- an exclusive deal. mr. jannard stated that himself several times. And this is -the- main reason for a certain scepticism among several corps and folks in reds userbase. We have been told from day 1 that red -really- understands that "a camera without open workflows is useless". While i understand the need to start with few partners, the communications of the temporary exclusivity for apple, red and scratch was one of the few excepions where customer relations were not excellent at red.

At IBC06 and 07 when we where shopping for our 3hrd DI i wasn´t told that red wouldn´t support any other DI system than scratch for at least half a year by red - Other manufacturers informed us about it and it took months until red disclosed that they would want to stop 3hrd parties until NAB07.

This led to a uncertainity for many in the red userbase, as everyone learned that red really communicates open before. The good, and the bad news. Not only listening to feedback, but also implementing features/designchanges when the clients had good ideas.

Many of reds clients clearly wants Avid, Adobe, dvs, discreet, cineform, iridas etc to be able to support red in the -best- possible way, so that they can offer competition to assimilate and apple.

Before the openning of the fileformat in the next 60 days was announced by Jim Jannard, many customers, including us, became doubtful if shooting red and delivering red maximum quality would mean to have to invest another 50-80.000 minimum -per- employee in post, or, maybe having a second class workflow. In our case that would mean 7 NLEs, 3 DIs and lots of VFX systems. And we get dozens of calls per week from editors on avid quantels etc who can´t or don´t want to change their infrastructure.



2) Anybody who has ever dealt with Apple on a corporate level knows the level of madness they insert into keeping cards close to the vest. Have you *ever* seen an Apple employee speaking out of turn on a public forum...

I agree, but thats one of apples bad sides in most customers eyes.

Their poor customer communication skills have a constant trackrecord - and are often generating very problematic situations for professional users.

I know way too many frustrated former apple evangelist who were hit hard by apples secretive communications (bought an fully loaded quad g5 weeks before apple switched to pcs, soundstudios who dropped logic when apple killed the windows version, vfx houses who were mainly shake on windows/linux, then changed to OSX shake then to see shake being killed, right now, veteran VFX supervisors on the edge to madness after the Quicktime 7.4 massacre, whole facilities in full reverse mode after the leopard/XSAN etc etc etc). Apple, besides all its great sides, is clearly not able to match reds outstanding performance in customer communications.



3) Why do people assume their solution has to exist right now? Will very efficient Avid and Adobe workflows ever exist? I'm sure they will. But those weren't the first to the table. Such is life. Move on.

the frustration came from the impression that red would intentionally slow down or prevent other workflows.



To draw an analogy... ever tried to do an Online on a PC from an Offline generated with DVCProHD QT on FCP? Oops... you can't. If you can't (or don't want to) figure it out, is that Apple's fault?

Thats a bad thing, one of the -exact- examples for what red never should do: block users needs, prevent 3hrd parties from doing their jobs and products, exchanging wide support for their camera by exclusive behind-the-curtains contracts.

This is exactly how red -should not- work, this is exactly why DVCproHD failed to get broad industry support, and exactly what customers like me were afraid of before red confirmed that they indeed don´t want to be tied to -one- online system.

This isn´t the industries way of working anymore. These days are, finallly, over for good - as are avid harddisks and discreet computers...



I suffered through the early days of HDCAM, D5, and P2 as an Online Editor. Anybody who thinks that those workflows at this stage of development were easier or smoother than where RED is right now has a very short memory.

Hm, i have had a different experience.
HDCAM worked, with very few teething problems, like an ace for us since day one in 2001. And it still is for years to come (2 hdcam vcrs are running hours of footage for berlinale while i type this.)

P2 suffered from most of the imaginable problems you get if you do exclusive deals -and- do not look at the market reality. It took -years- until Avid editors were willing to accept P2, as panasonic missed to make sure that they are compatible. It scared away literally -dozens- of producers here from the HVX200 when they saw that neither flame nor quantel nor.... could ingest P2 cameras output. We charge more for HVX200 originated than for 35mm 2K dpx or hdcam here, as it needs a complex conversion run until its in one of the DI suites. Pretty much the situation redcode is now in the industry.

It is -cruicial- that redcode raw gains widest possible industry acceptance and support. Then the red camera will be able to really use its potential.

Red will have to match its digital counterparts as hdcam and SR in the postproduction workflow in the eyes of -any- non-camera owner, and that is the huge mayority of the users of red footage.



In my industry experience, this is - by far - the most production and development cycle I have seen in such a sophisticated tool.

Reds story so far, with all slips, is outstanding. Most people never believed they could do it. Now look at reds market share in the 35mm segment.
And hey, i have hdcams cameras here, i know -lots- of people who rather see red as a menace to theirs.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Laguun,

This is an excellent post.. Makes me think I should delete mine!

Jay

[Phil D]

Well put Laguun.

I know Red will sort this out, because why would they have designed a camera with a changeable lens mount that allows the operator to choose which optics they want to capture images with, if they were then going to limit how those images were then processed and finished. Doesn't make sense.

Some lens' are better than others, its a matter of taste, same will be true of post work-flows, but this camera is about choice, it's what its foundations are built on.

We just want to be able to choose.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Laguun -

Your best post.

[Lucas Wilson]

Jay and Laguun,

Good posts guys and good thoughts...


I've seen it, I've worked with it, and it's fantastic. It was just taken away.

And I gotta tell ya, I'm not too happy that this solution was possible and no one from RED or anywhere else told me it was out there. Information was being seriously minipulated in order to drive business in one direction. I'm fine with that, after all it's typical Apple, but it's also why they do not have my loyality, Apple I mean.

Jay - first, although it may seem that way because you're the guy waving the flag, just fyi, I was not at all singling you out. It was more of a "generic rant."

Although I'm close to RED, I'm not RED... so I don't know all the back and forth with Cineform. BUT, RED owns the format. They are rolling it out as they see fit. They have *always* said that they would eventually open it up. But they are going to do it the way they see fit, and not be hit with tons of different companies doing it "freelance." You may not agree with that, but it is a consistent and well-thought-out approach.



Here are 3 points where many people disagree, including me.
1) "It is *all* about how to keep images at their utmost."
That, sadly, isn´t true for editing red footage. FCP doesn´t have
...
If these manufacturers wouldn´t want to support red, it would also be different, but they all are -working- to support red but aren´t allowed to do so - yet. ... Compare FCS to, say, adobe cs3, which has -all- of this: RGB, 15/16bit, at 4K and additionally is crossplatform.

Perhaps I should have amended that statement to...

"It is *all* about how to keep images at their utmost with the current development path RED is on."

RED picked Apple as their first native partner for editorial and ASSIMILATE as their first native partner for DI. If the image paths are not tight and solid with 2 partners, what makes you think it will be miraculously fixed with 9 partners - all diluting resources and generating 9 different sets of needs and paths? :)


2) "The RED team spend pretty much all day, every day thinking of how to maximize their customers' investments." I believe that, however they were only successful for the camera, not for the postproduction. ... investments in the $.$$$.$$$ range - aren´t protected (yet). ... maximizing my investments in avid or discreet certainly was no priority at red - yet.

Whether you realize it or not, an awful lot of what RED is doing is pointed towards maximizing your investment. And oddly, a lot of what we are doing at ASSIMILATE will directly help your Discreet, Avid, and Adobe systems.


3) Suggesting some kind of dark conspiracy of exclusivity among Apple, ASSIMILATE, and RED is ludicrous.
There -is- an exclusive deal. ... While i understand the need to start with few partners, the communications of the temporary exclusivity for apple, red and scratch was one of the few excepions where customer relations were not excellent at red.

Fair enough. I was mainly talking about people who suggest that Apple or ASSIMILATE somehow have Jim and RED at their mercy, and that we are holding them back. Trust me here - Jim doesn't get forced into anything.


Many of reds clients clearly wants Avid, Adobe, dvs, discreet, cineform, iridas etc to be able to support red in the -best- possible way, so that they can offer competition to assimilate and apple.

Understood. But RED needed/needs to work through early hiccups and issues with a few partners rather than a dozen. If you disagree with that business model, that's cool. But I believe the reasons they have for doing this are technically and business-savvy. Easy for me to say, because ASSIMILATE benefits. But ASSIMILATE has also taken a *lot* of serious hits and a lot of behind-the-scenes sh*t from dozens of companies because things that are evolving aren't done. Being the first ones out there with a workflow has its downsides as well...


Before the openning of the fileformat in the next 60 days was announced by Jim Jannard, many customers, including us, became doubtful if shooting red and delivering red maximum quality would mean to have to invest another 50-80.000 minimum -per- employee in post, or, maybe having a second class workflow. In our case that would mean 7 NLEs, 3 DIs and lots of VFX systems. And we get dozens of calls per week from editors on avid quantels etc who can´t or don´t want to change their infrastructure.

But that's the thing - a workflow for you exists NOW. You can use REDCINE and REDLINE to generate media for whatever system you have! What you don't like is that your preferred workflow is slower. But that is a huuuuggge difference between a workflow that just doesn't exist.


I agree, but thats one of apples bad sides in most customers eyes. Their poor customer communication skills have a constant trackrecord - and are often generating very problematic situations for professional users.

I completely agree. Just pointing out reality.


Hm, i have had a different experience.
HDCAM worked, with very few teething problems, like an ace for us since day one in 2001. And it still is for years to come (2 hdcam vcrs are running hours of footage for berlinale while i type this.)

I wasn't talking about the tapes themselves or the format itself. I was talking about the post workflow behind it. Tapes mixed between 23.976 and 24, EDLs cut at 30. EDL cut with DF. I was making an analogy to RED... cameras and workflow. HDCAM - tapes and workflow.

Cheers,

Lucas

[Thor Wixom]

1,000 cameras is a huge amount for any of the newer digital cinema camera's. Red will probably have finished shipping their current 3,500+ orders by fall. These are big, big #'s.

Finner, yes... these are big numbers, even by Sony's standards.

Here is a link to one of Sony's press releases:

http://www.bcssal.com/news/docs/NABPressReleases2007/Sony_NAB_OverviewRelease_FINAL.doc

It says that the XDCam format sold 6,000 units in it's first year. So, 3500+ units IS big, big #'s! ...especially considering Red will probably receive and deliver several thousand more orders before the end of the year.

My hope is that Matrox will support native .R3D files through their Axio systems. Imagine realtime editing, with realtime primary AND secondary color correction! They can do it with 10 bit uncompressed 1080. Why not Redcode 4k?

I happen to know that representatives from Matrox are paying attention to this thread. I cannot speak for them, or even guess from a techical standpoint if the Axio platform can be adapted for native Red support.

But if you want them to know how badly you want them to try... make it known!

-Thor

[Gian Joon]

Laguun, Great post. You make a lot of sense.


On a side note;

"you can have 9 women but won´t get the baby in the month"

BEST QUOTE I HAVE SEEN ON REDUSER.

[laguun]

I should mention that the following workflows are ones that I have seen *working* in production. This is not theory, but rather real facilities doing real post-production for real projects.

1) FCP -> SCRATCH.
Pretty self-explanatory. Cut on FCP, either with REDCODE, or through log-and-transfer to ProRes. Make sure that timecodes are maintained, and then the conform process is very straightforward. Color and finish on SCRATCH and output.

2) FCP -> SCRATCH -> iQ/DaVinci/etc.
In this case, SCRATCH is used as "middleware" to conform an EDL, and then export DPX files with embedded timecode for an existing finishing system.

3) R3D -> MetaCheater -> Avid -> SCRATCH
MetaCheater creates ALE files with proper timecodes that can then be batch imported as master clips. The name of the game with editorial, whether FCP, Avid, Premiere, Vegas, whatever is to get clips in that match the timecode tracks in the R3D files. Once that happens, then it is a pretty standard editorial and conform process.

4) FCP (or Avid) -> REDCINE -> Finish System X
Editorial generates a list. A custom app generates REDCINE XML that is then used to generate what is essentially an A-mode sort in REDCINE. REDCINE exports DPX files with embedded timecode for a finishing system.

OK... now... Transcode times...


i think this list clearly shows the problem. some typical current workflows for top-end work in comparision.

A) HDCAM
1) FCP
digitize to disk or from tape. master.
2) ADOBE
digitize to disk or from tape. master.
3) AVID
digitize to disk or from tape. master.

B) 35/16mm FILM
1) FCP
scan. then master.. (warning: no >=RGB 10bit precision)
2) ADOBE
scan. then master.
3) AVID
scan. then master.

All these solutions can be on one OS.
They do not force a loss in the originals quality (exception B1 if you go for filmout)
All these workflows -can- be brought to a much better finishing system, if the project demands it.

With red footage, right now, there isn´t such an one stop. Or you compromise quality.

The QT wrapper of redcode isn´t compatible with all the application (a decklink, aja etc file is), is not supported by most applications (automatic duck->combstion ae etc) and offers less quality than the ideal way.

For A-Budget productions all this isn´t to problematic, as transcoding to a compatible format from the redcode is trivial, if you have enough computing, storage and manpower. we have that.

But: Most customers don´t. EFP doesn´t. Smaller indies don´t. Your average "VCR MONITOR NLE" boutique doesn´t. The producer doesn´t want to have an explanation, he wants a solution, and if i have to send him to another posthouse without his team, with an unknown colorist, only because redraw can only be finished in one (here in germany pretty uncommon) system, i am in trouble.

There are -many- solutions to these problems. Switchable quality for the QT wrappers -below- the nle file i/o. EDL support for redcine. Cineform. Crossplatform QT wrappers. redcode raw support in as many installed nle and di as possible.

I just came out of a production meeting with a (really veteran) producer for a mid-budget fullfeature this summer which we convinced to go for red (yay!) and i had to explain the (also veteran avid cutterlady) how the workflow will be (yikes). She: "So i import the files"? - Me: "Ah, no, you´ll need another tool, metacheater". - she: "*sigh* And then import in non realtime?" - "Yes." - she: "And how do online from the edit?" - "We bring it back to the digital lab, from there we go to the DI" - she: "That sounds pretty complicated - why did they design it that way?". Valid question, and i have to have that conservation several times a day here at berlinale.

Simply put: Scratch is a good product, but it makes no sense to have to buy a 50.000$ DI system on windows and a $2000 NLE software on OSX for a $17.500 camera in order to have a rawbasing online.

Especially as the mayority of the market already is on one platform and finishing their commercials on a discreet smoke, serving their 4k workgroup for the usual tradeshow screeners on a dvs clipster since years, putting together their top-notch sundance feature on a adobe cs3, scrambling their news through the avid etc etc etc.

RED is probably the most interesting new camera which came to the markets since the F900 (in my opinion even much more interesting) -but- the workflow, besides all the strenghts it has for the ones who do understand it and have time and/or money, as it is now.... combines the disadvantages of film (lab, slow, multistage) with the ones of offline video editing. The post world loves the camera for what it can do, but hates the gaps and sharp edges in the workflow.

I would be pretty surprised if red didn´t know already since quite some time that this means: basic EDL support for redcine, crossplatform/crossapplication wrappers for redcode raw and an open, documentated fileformat.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ok I am going to be picky on this.

You mention REDline and REDLine is the right *idea*.

But everyone here raise your hand if you have a large OSX render farm...
[chirps]
That's what I thought.

Just saying if we're talking about "now"... now isn't quite here yet.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Luki great post too.

Also some people don't live in A REAL WORLD.

Mostly they live behind the high walls of their own studio system(s).

Somebody could call them:

The prisoners of their own system.

They cannot see a real world because it's not allowed for them to leave a system(s).

It's a pitty.

But it's also a real thing.

This comparison statement you could apply also today for the world's politics.

Again it's a sort of RUDE reality that we are already even longer facing in this Global Society.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Or Sanjin some of us live in the "Real World" where the demands of our pipeline aren't compatible with what's being provided by whatever your pipeline is.

That's why there is more than one choice. To solve more than one problem.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Gavin,

it was just an opinion.

My logic was something like this:

I wanted RED.

Then I have to deal with what RED proposed and suggested from the beginning on.

Use Apple's FCP or SCRATCH.

For the rest you should do "workarounds" or wait.

That's it.

For me it was very clear and real thing from the beginning.

And that was sort of A REAL WORLD I was pointing out.

[Gunleik Groven]

Ok I am going to be picky on this.

You mention REDline and REDLine is the right *idea*.

But everyone here raise your hand if you have a large OSX render farm...
[chirps]
That's what I thought.

Just saying if we're talking about "now"... now isn't quite here yet.

I'm unsure what your point really is, but:

Yes, I'm building a large OSX renderfarm and have access to one more which insidentially is hooked up to quite a huge Linux renderfarm, both with SANs and ready to go, both hooked up to the same fiber network and would like to deploy any or both of them for redline (with frontend) work.

Gunleik

[laguun]

Jay and Laguun,
Good posts guys and good thoughts...

your posts also make a good read!



RED picked Apple as their first native partner for editorial and ASSIMILATE as their first native partner for DI. If the image paths are not tight and solid with 2 partners, what makes you think it will be miraculously fixed with 9 partners - all diluting resources and generating 9 different sets of needs and paths? :)

Delegating the R&D work to the manpower of these 9 partners would hugely increase the manpower behind redcode raw support and speed up the time to the markets extremly.

This Nab, -most- DI manufacturers would show their DI support for redraw if red would share at least the details of -one- codec. Adobe and Avid would have the red demostation crowded. Totally crowded, also due to Apple, but well, thats another story.



But ASSIMILATE has also taken a *lot* of serious hits and a lot of behind-the-scenes sh*t from dozens of companies because things that are evolving aren't done. Being the first ones out there with a workflow has its downsides as well...

... and hey, you have a lot of respect from me for being the pioneers, believe me. The decision against scratch this time was close. Would scratch have an integrated NLE and/or a slightly different business model i would have spend my few bucks which remain after 3 reds and 2 more angenieux zooms and and and with you.



But that's the thing - a workflow for you exists NOW. You can use REDCINE and REDLINE to generate media for whatever system you have! What you don't like is that your preferred workflow is slower. But that is a huuuuggge difference between a workflow that just doesn't exist.

I agree - mostly.
I however don´t think that 64 cpus munching through redcode with cli, attached to a massive double san double 48 disk array will be slower than decoding 4k raw on the fly. We will offer overnight "digital lab" services with output to hdcam/prores/aja/blackmagic. I think prices will be ~50-100 euro/hour of footage.

What i don´t like and like - is that most customers might need this service until their preferred blend of editor and nle supports redraw.

What i certainly don´t like at all is that i slowly am becoming a broken record explaining this workflow to almost anyone.



Cheers,
Lucas
Prost!

(german cheers)

[John Tissavary]

For a final conform in a good system that can also grade and manage color
for film out we are looking around $25K a pop(conform). Another $25K for a grade.
These days it starts and takes upwards of $300-500K to buy a film into each distribution
market, Cameras like Red, Desktop post solution that can save on a post
budget help find this kind of marketing and distribution money for low budget projects.
Being able to conform R3d on a desktop NLE like FCS WOULD save money.
Scratch at about 50-75K is expensive for a conform tool and R3d file manager. Few people on this forum would have the skills to grade on Scratch for film out let alone the additional equipment needed.
So it would be mostly used for Conform at $50-75K a pop.
ATM uncompressed 2K workflow on FCS is incomplete,inconsistant, limited and slow. (Glue Tools may help this a little at NAB 08)
I think all projects looking for theatricial release desperatly need a film
out, on low budget projects this can be a struggle, like finding marketing money.
We just want a little bit of extra love from Apple with R3d & 2K, just a little.
give us a sign................... APPLE.
Mezmo

If you're being charged $50-75k for a conform & color please PM me. Although those prices are not terrible (depending on the artist doing the color), I assure you that better prices can be found, possibly even better short & long-term post solutions.

cheers,

jt

[laguun]

If you're being charged $50-75k for a conform & color please PM me. Although those prices are not terrible (depending on the artist doing the color), I assure you that better prices can be found, possibly even better short & long-term post solutions.


while sometimes we do a color & conform for fullfeatures at $$$$, i also demand usually 1800€ daily as colorist, and am in the middle league for A-Budget and commercials with that rate.

It all depends on the client: is he a skeleton crew self-financed producer/writer/director with lots of time, lots of knowledge and able to use the unbooked shifts? is he an hyped director, who has to get everything yesterday and changes the full conform three times as he got an inspiration?

[Deanan]

What i certainly don´t like at all is that i slowly am becoming a broken record explaining this workflow to almost anyone.



How many times do we have to explain that this stuff doesn't happen magically and we're already working on win/lin/third party relationships and solutions?

If we added 9 partners a year ago, we'd have 9 completely unusable workflows because everytime we made a change we'd have to spend two months working with 9 partners to figure out what broke.

Seriously guys, complaining ad nauseum is not helping things at all.