Red Drive - votes for hot-swap SATA support

[TimothyD]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to suggest that the kind folks at Red consider helping us all out by making the Red Drive or a variant thereof that allows us to buy off-the-shelf SATA drives and pop them into trays for hot-swap. I'm wondering how many others on the forum support that idea?

This would make the Red Drive about 90% more affordable for me to use. It would also greatly simplify workflow for those of us who won't be able to afford multiple Red drives. I for instance could just bring drives with me for my shoots and not ever worry about whether I needed to stop shooting for prolonged periods to dump the footage to another drive.

I also mentioned in a related thread about RAM buffers that I think that it would be very wise to add a gig or two of RAM either internally, or built into the Red Drive enclosure that could work as a buffer to avoid damage to the drive during periods of excessive movement. I would imagine this would only add about 100-200 to the price, so it definitely has my vote. Anyone else feel like this is something important for Red to consider? (or maybe they already have:)

Thanks,

Tim

[Jarred Land]

The problem with that is that there becomes no quality control and people would start trying to record onto 4000rpm crappy drives.. and when all their footage gets corrupt they would come to us crying.

Trust me though tim... When pricing is announced tomorrow, this will become less of an issue for you.

Shooting drives record for aprox. 2 1/2 hours remember... and you can offload those to off the shelf drives.

[tj williams]

Hi Jarred

Sears once replaced a saw one of the guys dropped off a third floor roof. I was amazed, cause the case was cracked, and he came back with a new saw in a box!

If I drop my RED I don't expect them to buy it back! If a person were fool enough to put in a drive without the proper spec. Then how could they

come to us crying. you'd be LOL

I work in a lot of remote areas, drives can fail, I'm also interested in wanting to be able to replace drives in the housing, Failing that one could always go to the local computer store and put up a 0 raid, convert fm SDI card, then be recording on a string. Nicer to swap drives!

Your issue of quality control IMO would include say... My tripod breaks, then doe's RED have a responsiblility for the broken camera? I don't think so either.

[TimothyD]

Ok, well I was already curious, but now I'm that much more eager to see the pricing. Considering I have a grand budgeted for the drive, then I'll be very happy to see how many drives I can squeeze into that budget. If you guys somehow have them come in at or near retail price for a SATA drive, that will rock.

I still strongly urge thinking about a RAM buffer though for the drive. And since you didn't address that part of my post, I am guessing you either are already working on something like that, or know it is a non-issue for some other reason. I somehow doubt that the 16 MB stock buffer on the drive is going to cut it when I am running and gunning:) So this is a real concern for me, and incidentally, the Flash drive is going to be too spendy for me, so that will not be an option. I wish it were, but it's not. So I just want to put it out there that I think this would be really important to think about (unless you already have, and I don't realize it.)

Tim

[Justin O'Neill]

It would probably be possible to have the camera check the drive when you put one in and make sure it meets the requirements. It might be too complex to be worth it though.

I do agree with Tim though, it would be awesome just to be able to pop our own drives in.

[MikeCurtis]

TJ/Timothy - I'm with Jarred on this one - if Red allows users to do whatever, somebody will do it wrong and then blame Red that it is busted - so let it go. They are pushing the bounds of what is possible hard enough that they can't let anything go in there, because not just anything will work. As for repairs, if you broke your car engine and tried to repair it yourself would it still be under warranty?

Just buy a second one as a spare, and in any case these things will hold enough and cost little enough you shouldn't be sweating it.

Obendega - why should they go to all that work to provide a solution they make no money from, that may not work, that they can't vouch for, when there is an affordable solution that they stand behind already available?

-mike

[Mark B.]

Why not just have the R1 do a test when a drive is newly inserted... if the data rate won't keep up then the camera could display "Insufficient Drive Performance... Buy A Better Harddrive!" or some message like that. The users would get the gist of it and wouldn't have to hassle Red about recording problems.

[Mike the beginner]

With mike on this one. I am all for savings wherever possible but i am sure once you guys see the red drive as a finished article you will be persauded. why risk saving a couple of hundred dollers for something that "might" work and could be ruined if you happened to er..drop it before you transferred the foootage. Too much risk not enough reward i think.

Mike the beginner

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm in agreement with Jarred/RED and MikeCurtis.

Additionally, we won't know the cost of the RED DRIVE just yet. All that we know is that <under $1000> for 360GB which is several months old. Something tells me it's going to be less than that $1K figure. But realistically, look at what it's made of. 2 * 160GB 2.5" 5400rpm drives - those go for about $110 each these days. Then there's a custom enclosure and internal RAID controller, USB2, Firewire and eSATA interfaces (presumably) and who knows what else. Comparing to other hard drive solutions on the market, I don't think the price will be that bad and even approaching $1K, it's not really out of line.

Allowing for drop-in replacement of drives just opens up too many variables and you probably won't save all that much money in the long run.

Oh, and compared to other HDD based camera storage like the FireStore, Citidisk, JVC HDD110, and upcoming CinePorter, the RED DRIVE is a real bargain (arguably it doesn't do as much though other than sustain the 30MB/s or so needed). And it's cheaper than P2 cards any day. Panasonic still thinks 4 high grade SD chips with an interleaving memory controller is worth almost $150/GB. Now that's nuts.

[Justin O'Neill]

@Mike

I agree with you that it wouldn't be in the company's best interest and it would be probably one of those things that would raise the price of the camera anyways.

However, it would be awesome to just pop a drive in, record, and then pop it out and hand it to the client. Maybe I am alone in this.

[Mark B.]

Perhaps this is another scenario where a 3rd party company will have to step in and build something to get swappable common drives working with the camera.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just love the situations where a really useful solution is right within reach, but it doesn't get implemented because one allways has to consider "human stupidity factor"...

but...

Competitors beg for any opportunity to put RED down, and I completely understand RED's decision.
After all the ground breaking achievements the last thing you need is someone's bitching, creating a risk of bad reputation.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

However, it would be awesome to just pop a drive in, record, and then pop it out and hand it to the client.

I originally thought this way in regards to the HVX200 and P2 media. I wouldn't be able to just hand over the tape(s) to the client when the shoot was over. But I can tell you that it hasn't been a big deal at all. I can offload P2 cards while shooting to an external HDD and then hand to a client. Same with the RED DRIVE. Now, it may require some time to dump the RED DRIVE footage to another drive.. But the client may just have to deal with it, it's a trade off for the quality. If they're used to film workflows, then this is still a lot faster anyway.

If the RED DRIVE can be connected to any PC/Mac system and I don't see why it can't, then shoot to the drive and hand it to the client when you're done. Have the client pay a media deposit that's refundable when they return the drive. This also brings up the question of formats and codecs. Without a license for REDCINE and the REDCODE codecs, the drive or direct delivery of your RED footage is going to be worthless to them until you process it into a format they can handle. We don't know yet what the licensing terms on REDCINE or codecs will be.

I'm curious to see what the price is on the RED drive, but even if it's the full $1K, it still makes sense to own 3 to 5 of these things if you're shooting for clients on a regular basis. And that's still far less than I've personally spent on P2 cards for the HVX200.

[Poi Boy]

don't mess with cheap drives...something about penny wise pound foolish.
_A

[donatello b]

when i need to rent additional drives - i need to know i'm getting RED drive units not a RED case with xyz drives in it ...

i will not be handing over any RED media drives to any clients unless they BUY it with a additional 25% mark up ... i'll gladly transfer to external usb/1394 drive ( cost of drive + mark up)

[Stuart English]

RED DRIVE can be connected to any PC/Mac system. You can use USB-2, Firewire 400 or Firewire 800 as the connection.

So you can either give your RED-DRIVE to them (get a deposit first) or just copy the data off to a big 3.5" disk drive.

[Evin Grant]

Tiger Direct has 320GB 7200RPM Stata drives for $80! That's a perfect clone size for Red drive, just get a case or Sata dock. I believe.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=2268595&sku=TSD-320AS&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM1312C

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Evin, They're cheaper than that at newegg!

Oh, and newegg also has 320GB external USB2/eSATA units for $119 w/ a $30 mail in rebate ($89 after the fact). Ooooh, neat. In another few months when I get my RED, these things are going to be even cheaper.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Now this thread makes me laugh!!

Come on folks ... 2.5 hours a drive - what are you shooting??

Okay, okay ... REALLY LONG interviews ... (yeah, I can personally talk for over 2.5 hours without stopping) and docs - (how bulky is 5 hours worth of HD stock compared to 2 Red Drives?)

Seems much longer than 40 minutes tape in a SONY 900 ... and longer still than a DVCPRO HD tape in a Varicam ... even longer still than a 1000ft MAG of 35mm ...

And handing a client the drive ... hmmmmmmm

who are your clients? Do THEY want to process your footage in REDCINE? Lot's of clients I know don't want to process anything, and I sure know a few that I would not WANT to process ...

I predict that the norm for shooting RED on commercials and/or features is that the REDDRIVE is file copied ON SET and that it will be processed by post house or the production company itself. Production companies are going to buy REDs like crazy - because it's not going to make financial sense for them to not to. I would be willing to bet that the majority of folks on this website are shooters -

Sure, REDCINE is going to be so EASY to use - nothing for the Red-Shooter to worry about, right? WRONG!

let me give you an example -

I think the Kona3 is ultra-easy to use - lots of features, easy set-ups -

but as "everybody-and-their-dog" buys an afforable "uncompressed HD edit system" - I can't tell you how many phone calls I have had in which I had to help this production company or that company or that "one man post house" to use it the right way -

LOTS of folks are going to have RED CAMERA and REDCINE - I assure you - they are not ALL going to know how to use them correctly. (There are one or two folks on this forum I am already concerned about - )

Also, all hard drives fail. Sooner or later. And usually not when you expect it. You need at least TWO RED DRIVES with you camera, as a minimum. I plan to swap drives and file copy at lunch or during any long turn-around.

A camera under $100,000 that can shoot 4K resolution and takes 35mm primes ... I'd be happy if I it could only shoot 22 minutes before the "drive" needed to be changed.

Funny what happens when you raise the bar ...

[Poi Boy]

I'm not handing over anything but a finished product. But then that is my business model; direct and shoot for my own production company. As with my still business, I would never deliver raw files to a client. who knows how they are going to screw it up and the bottom line is you produced it.
Aloha
-A

[Evin Grant]

I don't think delivery will be that big a deal, I've been delivering drives from the HVX for a year now and producers love it. Post houses have been slowly but surely acclimating and the world hasn't come to an end. Some produces still want tape but when I tell them how much DVC-Pro tape is Vs. a firewire drive they usually change thier minds. It's going to take some client re-education on our part, but Red workflows will emerge to facilitate all manner of production styles.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I don't think delivery will be that big a deal, I've been delivering drives from the HVX for a year now and producers love it. Post houses have been slowly but surely acclimating and the world hasn't come to an end. Some produces still want tape but when I tell them how much DVC-Pro tape is Vs. a firewire drive they usually change thier minds. It's going to take some client re-education on our part, but Red workflows will emerge to facilitate all manner of production styles.

I agree 100% that delivery will be on drives - but client re-education is not going to be overnight. And you have to admit there's a bit of a difference between options promised in REDCINE vs. IMPORT P2 in FCP.

[Gbabymogul]

Sure, REDCINE is going to be so EASY to use - nothing for the Red-Shooter to worry about, right? WRONG!


Haha. Horses for courses, mate.

Like Poi boy, I'll finish in house when it's appropriate and go the full post production route when it's applicable... Although, I'm surprised that a guy who works at a post house would be against small boutiques/indie shooters doing some post work on their own :sarcasm: I trust the camera and conversion software will NOT need a professional post house to achieve acceptable quality (depending on the deliverable). RED team has reiterated this several times, so I'll take em at their word.

I do get what you're saying about 'raising the bar" and for those who've never worked with a 35mm workflow (including post); it will be a learning curve.
Perhaps, I'm more of an optimist in that regard to RED reservationists.

As to the 2.5 hours; is it needed for a feature shoot?
Depends if you're Terrence Malllick or Kubrick. Someone recently mentioned a 100 takes to get proper focus:biggrin: they're going to need that large a drive.j/k...

I have an idea that the post processing of RED footage is going to lead to a wide array of post tools -> from the neophyte's basic post to three month multitiered posts (and beyond).




:beer:

[Mark L. Pederson]

Haha. Horses for courses, mate.
Although, I'm surprised that a guy who works at a post house would be against small boutiques/indie shooters doing some post work on their own :sarcasm: I trust the camera and conversion software will NOT need a professional post house to achieve acceptable quality (depending on the deliverable). RED team has reiterated this several times, so I'll take em at their word.

I do get what you're saying about 'raising the bar" and for those who've never worked with a 35mm workflow (including post); it will be a learning curve.
Perhaps, I'm more of an optimist in that regard to RED reservationists.

:beer:

I think my tone was off and I was not very clear.

I AM a post/boutique and a production company. I fully expect the entire future of post production in film & video to be boutiques.

The real future is production companies who control thier own production & post workflows.

I fully support shooters doing as much work as possible on their own!!

I fully expect REDCINE to be super easy to use.

I do feel, based on reading this website, that many folks assume that the industry is going to understand RED the same way the folks who go to this website do.

YES - all of you(us) on this website ARE the future. But, the world is going to need a bit of time to catch up with us - JUST DON'T ASSUME your clients are going to get it right in the beginning. Eventually, yes, you will "hand off" a drive to the client - eventually ...

Just be prepared to hold your clients hand and lead them down the Red road ...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

As I have stated on other threads of this type I plan to have a van with a fast computer, RAIDs, and monitors to run RedCine on site. The idea is to do a "one-light" version output in the format of the client's choice copied onto low cost SATA drives for immediate deliverables. I will run at least one and potentially two copies of the original RedCode RAW files to the RAIDs for back up and recycle the RedDrives. To avoid long waits at the end of a long day I will have at least 3 RedDrives on set and will swap them several times a day.

If the client or their post house has the interest in a better quality final product than they can get from the format I gave them on site from RedCine then they can engage my company to do a conform using the RedCode RAW or, (if the ability to work with RedCode data is not restricted) simply pay a fee for me to dub the RedCode RAW onto drives and ship them.

For projects I am finishing in house I can just create SD rushes for editorial on DVD like I do now.

[Gbabymogul]

YES - all of you(us) on this website ARE the future. But, the world is going to need a bit of time to catch up with us - JUST DON'T ASSUME your clients are going to get it right in the beginning. Eventually, yes, you will "hand off" a drive to the client - eventually ...Oh, I agree with that. I just didn't want others to feel intimidated by REDcine. We've primarily shot film, and have always been involved in the financing side of things (with some small exceptions), so this complete client relationship model is a bit strange to me, but I get what you're saying.

Freelance-wise, commercial and corporate work will have a lot of convincing to do. But hopefully, the cost-benefit ratio will do most of the talking, and it'll be adopted eventually.

:beer:

[Mark L. Pederson]

Blair -

That's a perfect model.

[tj williams]

Advantages of a hotswappable system on the back of the RED Camera:

1. For shooters of events that last all day no swapping drives while their client is
speaking.
2. For doc. shooters who started a 15min interview with 30 min on the mag and
are discovering they are in the midst of a 40 minute interview.
3. For news/time sensitive material where the shooter wants to give the original
drive to the producer.
4. Mini budget shooters trying to save a few bucks by not owning so many shells to encase their drives.

disadvantages of hotswappable system on the back of the RED Camera"

1. fools who can't read the drive specs will install slower or unreliable drives and lose footage.
2. RED tech support who don't ask as a first support question for related problems: Did you use an unsupported drive? Have you put a supported drive on the system and tried it since?

My humble conclusion:
There is a market for such a product.
RED Will make this type accessory or some third party developer will make one for sale.

I started a thread called "Big Magazine" a while back.....:) :) :) :) maybe this is it????

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Blair -

That's a perfect model.

OffHollywood (BTW is there a rehab center to get off "Hollywood", it can feel like a drug) thanks for the reinforcement of my workflow plan. Interesting how having a low reservation number pushes you to have a system ready to roll.

One of the central issues of this thread is the client education piece. For all its headaches the P2 workflow broke some people in and got the idea of tapeless acquisition out there. My big pitch is that your editor is going to want it on a hard drive anyway, you're just saving a step. I also think that the drop in storage costs vs the cost of tape will eventually convert producers who tend to think about costs almost as much as I think about beautiful women.

[Evin Grant]

I also think that the drop in storage costs vs the cost of tape will eventually convert producers who tend to think about costs almost as much as I think about beautiful women.


LOL, I actually had a producer say he wanted to have sex with the 20% discount I gave him :love:

[TimothyD]

Many good points made by everyone. I do think that the pro's that TJ mentions are some of the best though. (I also have included the con's)

TJ from another thread:


1. for very long recordings... ie all day events
2. for shooters who are in remote areas, and have drive failure
2. for shooters trying to save a few bucks
4. for news and other shooters who want to give the client the original drive.
5. for doc situations where the 15min interview is becoming 40 minutes and
the shooter was too near the end of the digital magazine.

Hot swappable drives on the back of the RED will be bad for.

1. fools who cannot read drive specifications on the packaging.
2. Folks in RED tech. support who don't ask as a first question.
Did you buy a non certified drive? Have you tried running the camera with
a certified drive?
3. Red if they include modifications and aftermarket additions in areas of their
responsibility in the warranty. Which seems strange as this company has
access to legal counsel.


I for one work for an institution, I am required to kick out lots of video for very little money. There are no clients to charge for drives or the rental thereof. There is also not enough money for multiple drives in my budget at the 1k price (if cheaper, maybe)

It would be very, very nice if I could shoot to a hot-swap tray, pop it out of the Red Drive when done and then into an enclosure connected to my Mac and start converting/copying files and editing. When finished, I put the drive on the shelf and when full, the drive that I am working from. I then have two backups of everything, and I just keep recycling the trays.

I also know that the price of SATA storage will just keep dropping as the speed of the drives increases. That means that a 320 Gb raid of 5400 rpm drives will not seem so great in a year, let alone two. So, if they are similarly priced to retail 2.5 inch SATA drives, then great. But if they are two or three times that much, then I'd prefer to be able to provide my own drives.

And by the way, I think most of us Red users will be saavy enough to figure out what rpm and brand hard-drive will be reliable:)

I think I mentioned in another post that it would also be nice to just be able to plug in any external SATA drive to the Red. Here's crossing my fingers we can do this, if so, as someone who mainly shoots on a tripod, that will be a solution I can live with for now.

Also, I can understand how Red would want to keep quality control at max, but let me just ask you all this:

Do you take Apple or other computer/electronics manufacturers seriously when they tell you that you have to buy RAM or other parts directly from them? Sure having a warranty is nice, but cost effectiveness is more important when you are looking at saving thousands. (at least from my perspective, I don't have a filmmaker's budget:)

Tim

[Stuart English]

This is an interesting debate. On the one hand, we'd all like to use off-the-shelf technologies that mimimize cost for everyone. Where we can we'll do that. On the other hand the value our customers create is contained in the Digital Media. We would not be serving our customers properly if we short changed the technical issues that surround ensuring reliable data recording.

In addition to e-SATA used for camera connection, RED-DRIVE is USB-2, Firewire 400 and 800 compatable, so once recorded, you can immediately dub your footage off to any off-the-shelf hard disk drive. I'd suggest that a 3.5" drive is probably the best choice for playback speed & capacity & price per GByte in this application.

[Mark L. Pederson]

One of the central issues of this thread is the client education piece. For all its headaches the P2 workflow broke some people in and got the idea of tapeless acquisition out there. My big pitch is that your editor is going to want it on a hard drive anyway, you're just saving a step. I also think that the drop in storage costs vs the cost of tape will eventually convert producers who tend to think about costs almost as much as I think about beautiful women.

Blair -
Forget about pitching saving a step to get the editor's footage on a hard drive. Make your pitch 4K and the fact that you know (and can facilitate) the workflow from start to finish, and that it is easy, flexible and the images will speak for themselves.
Processing via REDCINE on set is a great idea, but not always going to practicle (AC power, fast enough workstation, etc.) -

a very simple "indie" concept is FW800/eSata two bay drive (with removable trays) striped at RAID 1 - file copy (making two simultanious copies) via laptop

Tim -
You make a good point. I would just like to point out that Apple's RAM is overpriced (higher than average market). We will see ... but I doubt RED's accessories will be overpriced. And sure, other folks will make stuff to try to get a piece of RED PIE ... but if it's cheaper than RED can do it, I would proceed with caution ...

[Justin O'Neill]

@AppliedVisual

It is actually my experience with offloading P2 cards to an external drive while shooting with an HVX200 that makes me drool at the thought of swappable hard drives for the RED. We have to supply a P2 card offloader for almost every shoot and that ads to the budget. The RED-DRIVE will be big enough where that won't be an issue but at SOME point the footage will have to be transfered to another drive. I'm guessing here but it might be around 10-15 minutes to copy of a full RED-DRIVE. While that really isn't too bad, I can think of many shoots where 15 minutes less time dealing with footage would be reeeally nice. Definitely not necessary, but nice.

TJ has very good points as well.

For me it really just comes down to convenience and 10-15 minutes a day that could go towards something else.

[david farland]

Allow third party REDDRIVE/REDFLASH units. Where’s the money in that….!

Lose REDDRIVE/REDFLASH sales or license revenue, and allow low grade recording media.

RED will use RED drives…thank you very much!

Okay,
here’s how I think it really goes…

RED could make a camera that only uses RED lenses & batteries but would it have more industry appeal? No…

Would a RED camera that took only RED lenses be taken up quicker by the industry and add greater value to RED Inc? Probably not…

Red’s value and uptake in the market place will be because the RED camera and accessories will be better than the competitions, at a price level. If not, I suspect they won’t compete in that arena, note: eyewear / plug-in effects.

RED Inc.’s worth comes from Jim & co finding holes in film/video technology and filling them with smart minds (err…sort of), clever maths, good innovative technologies, etc. Red’s worth will come from innovations with universal application and standards, not ‘money for old rope’, closed shop ideas.

If you can’t add value to an area, don’t subtract from it. Meaning, if the rest of the world can produce a better/cheaper component than you, and with IT components someone always seems to be doing this, don’t reduce the overall appeal of your product by insisting on proprietary parts.

For now, RED introducing REDDRIVE/FLASH will serve a great purpose, but in the long run, should/will probably be overtaken by 3rd party companies. Can Jim guarantee REDDRIVE’s RAID 0 failure will be significantly less than other name brands?
Sure initially, RED should re-badge drives as I hope they will have a certain quality level and be proved on the RED camera, particularly in the early days for RED. Yes, I know RED needs to protect their customers, but as this technology receives greater universal acceptance, the risks encountered by the earlier adopters diminishes. As for the people that use old drives, it’s a bit like using old tape!

Like it didn’t happen with tape!! By encouraging choice in recording media you’ll be garnering greater universal uptake.
I hope in 5 years time when most digital cameras are using hard/flash drives we’ll be having the old tape X vs. tape Y arguments.
Yes, some brands will bubble up to the top, but good luck trying to defend your brand now. Hey, maybe we’ll just have more format, encryption, copyright wars in trying to defend recording mediums. Or maybe we could just keep it open to encourage proliferation once the format industry has matured with data centric recording/backup media.

Regarding backup media, I’d like to go further.
I think the only real confidence you can have in recording media is when you have multiple copies and the easier and cheaper it is for RED users, the more appealing RED will be.

As has been mentioned on this forum before, I hope RED can act as a host to not only 3rd party recording drives but to backup drives as well. I think it would be a killer app!

Hook up an esata external drive array with no intermediate pc/laptop and back your data up.
Because at the moment for backup it’s a relatively complex and fragile ‘hard disk and computer’ solution vs. more robust ‘tape and tape drive’ solution to house the complete production budget of your project! Making this area simpler and safer is gotta mean people will look at you. I think this feature would very much appeal to a tape-centric/data phobic/risk adverse industry and add greater appeal/value to core RED product more than having an unnecessarily complex backup system.

blah, blah, blah….

DF

[Justin O'Neill]

Before I say anything else I just want to point out that I think it is a testament to how much RED listens to the community that we are relegated debating for 4 pages something that would only add a small amount of convenience to the final experience.

However, if one of the main reasons for not having swappable hard drives is the fear that someone will pop a an insufficient drive and screw up their footage, I don't think you have to worry about that. We are fully entering the digital age and I think if people are buying a RED they be savy enough to buy quality hard drives. It's not like you can edit this footage on a Pentium I with 256mb a RAM. It seems to me if RED users can be trusted to buy their own editing computers then they will probably be smart enough to buy hard drives that meet the RED's specs.

Just a thought.

[Chris Kenny]

I'm guessing here but it might be around 10-15 minutes to copy of a full RED-DRIVE.

Considerably longer, almost certainly. Two 2.5" drives in a striped RAID configuration will maybe do 70 MB/s. Transferring 320 GB at 70 MB/s takes 78 minutes.

My view on this whole subject is that this camera is a piece of hardware for professionals. It's hard to predict what strange situations pro hardware will end up getting used in. As such, it should be kept as flexible as possible. It also isn't necessary to protect professionals from themselves to the same extent as it is with consumers. You can generally expect that pro users will have enough understanding of the principles that they won't try to do really outright stupid things, and that they'll probably do their own testing.

In this case, if there aren't significant technical barriers to allowing the camera to record straight to generic SATA drives, I think Red should allow it. Just make it clear that it's an unsupported configuration. Maybe even have the camera pop up a warning when a generic drive is connected.

[Brook Willard]

If you're going to be shooting more than 2.5 hours [think ~14,000 feet of film], you'll need an extra RED DRIVE to kill the ~1.5 hours it'll take to copy the data.

[Gunleik Groven]

Dunno if this point has been made, but to me the main use of being able to swap the drives is that I live on the other side of the earth from the "Red store".

When stuff break (which it eventually does) it's good to be able to solve an immediate problem like this myself (at my own risk of course).

Also, when I all of a sudden need 3 more drives "tomorrow", where do I go?

My experience thus far, is that the clients demands changes rapidly, and you'll have to move accordingly to expand and keep your business.

What I didn't even think about yesterday, I'll need 10 of by noon today.

To me, these are strong points for an (optional, do it-yourself at your own risk) version of the Red drive.

Gunleik

[Chris Kenny]

Everyone should keep in mind that for narrative work, at least, 2.5 hours of footage could be several shooting days' worth. The low budget indie feature guys should probably get a second Red Drive just in case one fails, but capacity is likely not going to be an issue at all. (Unless people use insane shooting ratios or manage a crazy number of setups each day.)

There will of course, as I mentioned in my previous post, be unexpected circumstances, so the system should be kept as flexible as possible, but day to day I wouldn't anticipate many capacity issues.

[Poi Boy]

I've gotten used to a p2 workflow witch is about the same as film in terms of recording time. 2 hours plus sounds like total luxory. I just don't see an issue here.

AlohA
-A

[donatello b]

i think perhaps the different POV's might come down to what media one is used to using ( and the cost of that media )... i have a film background so anything above 11 min works for me .. 2+hrs of 4k material at 1-2000K sounds cheap ...
then on the other hand if one is use to paying 7-30$ for a hour's worth of tape then red drives are expensive !!

need more drives - RENT them or BUY more ... use the REDmap to network with other RED owners to rent drives ... it's probably the 1st 3-500 RED owners that might find a shortage of rentable drives ??

there will ALWAYS be situations where you need more media to record = you planned wrong , drive went down, you didn't empty a drive, extra scene/interviews etc .. same as shooting ANY media today ...

monday we'll know the REAL cost of red drive and accessories !

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've gotten used to a p2 workflow witch is about the same as film in terms of recording time. 2 hours plus sounds like total luxory. I just don't see an issue here.

Same here and I agree. The thought of hours on a single RED DRIVE for under $1K seems like fantasy. Us P2 guys are still paying $1125 for 8GB -- that's a bit over 10 minutes of DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps (720p60 or 1080i / 24p over 60i).

I'm buying 2 RED DRIVES when the time comes. Possibly 3. Two should be all I need in most situations, the third would be a spare or for times when two just won't quite do or if I goof up somewhere (forget to dump a drive and need to roll).

[david farland]

I think as people have stated, recording storage won’t be the real issue here….

Backup will be the issue. It’s all to do with RISK!

If you don’t know the probability of a unit failing and it hasn’t been tested over several years of real field experience, it’s a BIG RISK!
Similarly, if you don’t know all the types of handling likely to induce corruption, it’s a risk!
How do you mitigate against this risk? Backup of course!

Just like when you’re writing a long word document.
It’s not gonna be….hey, I’ve got a 300MB drive I can write for years!
You (mostly) backup with a frequency that reflects the inconvenience & cost caused by a corruption if you lost your work right then!
And you’re going to want to backup as often as practical as you shoot on location.
If that means hitting the ‘save’ button on a simple and safe solution……Give it to me!

I reckon ease of backup is one solution that will assist industry take-up of a digital solution more than most!
It’s all to do with RISK!

Cheers,
DF.

[Evin Grant]

What about a small app from Red that could check out the Red Drive/Raid and tell us the health of the drive, clean it up and also monitor the SMART (Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology) hardware to try and keep ahead of any problems?

[ericyoung]

What about a small app from Red that could check out the Red Drive/Raid and tell us the health of the drive, clean it up and also monitor the SMART (Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology) hardware to try and keep ahead of any problems?

Have a look at:
http://www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm

These guys maybe have something better than SMART for early warning of disc failure - basically it lets you spot when normal error correction rates suddenly spike or rise to higher levels.

Maybe Red can license the software or get these guys involved?

[ericyoung]

Advantages of a hotswappable system on the back of the RED Camera:
1. For shooters of events that last all day no swapping drives while their client is speaking.
2. For doc. shooters who started a 15min interview with 30 min on the mag and are discovering they are in the midst of a 40 minute interview.
3. For news/time sensitive material where the shooter wants to give the original drive to the producer....


If not hotswappable drives in a Red Drive, how about two Red Drive connectors to allow hotswappable Red Drives?

[Stuart English]

RED-DRIVE isn't hot swappable in the sense that you can have two RED-DRIVES connected to the camera, but it is swappable. Unplug the first RED-DRIVE from the camera and plug in the second RED-DRIVE. The quick connect mechanism uses a LEMO push-pull connector, its positive lock and very rugged.

When mounting to a computer using USB-2, Firewire 400 or Firewire 800, RED-DRIVE has the same characteristics as any other hard disk.

[Craig Schober]

My view on this whole subject is that this camera is a piece of hardware for professionals. It's hard to predict what strange situations pro hardware will end up getting used in. As such, it should be kept as flexible as possible. It also isn't necessary to protect professionals from themselves to the same extent as it is with consumers. You can generally expect that pro users will have enough understanding of the principles that they won't try to do really outright stupid things, and that they'll probably do their own testing.

In this case, if there aren't significant technical barriers to allowing the camera to record straight to generic SATA drives, I think Red should allow it. Just make it clear that it's an unsupported configuration. Maybe even have the camera pop up a warning when a generic drive is connected.
there is a difference between consumers and pros so why do so many people want to treat the redone like it's a consumer device? you're spending $17.5k without lens and accessories. why cheap out on a $1000 storage device? you really want to save a few hundred bucks that much? buy a few red drives. it's not like you're blowing your budget on rip-off p2 cards.

[Chris Kenny]

there is a difference between consumers and pros so why do so many people want to treat the redone like it's a consumer device? you're spending $17.5k without lens and accessories. why cheap out on a $1000 storage device? you really want to save a few hundred bucks that much? buy a few red drives. it's not like you're blowing your budget on rip-off p2 cards.

I don't see this being about cost as much as flexibility. As another poster noted, Red will presumably be the only source in the world for Red Drives. What does this mean for people who are on the other side of the planet, who discover they need more storage on short notice? Also, Red Drives will probably be dual 2.5" RAID 0 internally. This has implications for both reliability and maximum continuous record time. It's a perfectly good choice for the vast majority of situations, but there might be instances where capturing to a single 3.5" drive (for instance) would be preferable.

All I'm saying is that if it's technically reasonable to allow for such flexibility, that should probably take priority over trying to protect users from themselves.

[donatello b]

"What does this mean for people who are on the other side of the planet, who discover they need more storage on short notice?"

this has been happening ever since film/video was invented .. at some point you end up in a situation where you are short on media ( film/tape) for whatever reason.
you get on the phone/internet and start making calls - sometimes you get the media and sometimes you don't ... if you go out with 1 drive = you'll probably run into that shortage more then if you had 5 drives ...

i suggest you bring a laptop with 2-3 external 100-160gig( 2 1/2" )drives ( they run off laptop power) - i think Lacie has a small raid unit... but again there will always be a situation where you are short on media - you do the best you can- you make choices ...

[ericyoung]

RED-DRIVE isn't hot swappable in the sense that you can have two RED-DRIVES connected to the camera, but it is swappable. Unplug the first RED-DRIVE from the camera and plug in the second RED-DRIVE. The quick connect mechanism uses a LEMO push-pull connector, its positive lock and very rugged.

When mounting to a computer using USB-2, Firewire 400 or Firewire 800, RED-DRIVE has the same characteristics as any other hard disk.

What I meant was that with two connectors you could have two RED-DRIVES connected and powered, but only ONE would be "live". Then perhaps it would be possible to implement a "live" switch so that as one RED-DRIVE was nearly full, you could hit a control and the recording would seamlessly switch to the second RED-DRIVE, releasing the first RED-DRIVE to be disconnected. Of course you could make it happen automatically, but sometimes it would be useful to manually pick the most convenient time to swap RED-DRIVES to facilitate off-loading footage.

On a recent HVX200 P2 shoot they deliberately didn't put in both of the two P2 cards they had, to avoid the automatic spanning to the second card as then you may have two cards with footage that need to be offloaded at the same time, and have to stop shooting at a time not of your choosing.

Failing that, perhaps a large incamera RAM buffer mentioned in another thread would allow swapping of RED-DRIVES without loss of footage in the brief down time? Ie the footage in the RAM buffer is written first to the new drive as soon as it reaches operating speed. I've no idea if this is possible! :biggrin:

[Joe Carney]

Blair, I like the way you think. BTW, why hasn't anyone considered getting a Blue-Ray recorder and disks for archival. I'm sure your clients will be happy with that. Not perfect, but 50gig a disk is a start.

Joe C.

[Stuart English]

Its a very short process to disconnect one RED-DRIVE and connect up another. The viewfinder gives time remaining estimates for the digital media so finding a convenient place to stop shooting shouldn't be a big deal. This isn't a new task, cameramen have had to deal with finite run length media irrespective of whether shooting film, tape, optical disk or flash memory.

[Evin Grant]

I personally prefer having a finite recoed time, it forces you to be economical in your shooting. I think cheap, hour long tapes has spolied most of the current generation of filmakers into a "Let it roll" mentality that is stifiling to creativity (Documentary excluded of course). It's good to have affordable storage, as Red Drive allows, but it's also good to have a limit to what is available. What's that Orson Wells quote again...
"The enemy of art is the absence of limitations"

[Stokestack]

Blair, I like the way you think. BTW, why hasn't anyone considered getting a Blue-Ray recorder and disks for archival.

We recently had a discussion about this in another thread.

Recordable optical disks are too unstable and short-lived to be viable for archiving.

[Anders Holck]

Not to mention slooooow

[Craig Schober]

We recently had a discussion about this in another thread.

Recordable optical disks are too unstable and short-lived to be viable for archiving.

if we're talking about blu-ray media right now on set during breaks then agree. blank optical media is a little under $1 per gig but will soon be pennies per gig. as for transfer times, it might be too slow for some transfers but not for most i suspect. transferring serveral gigs during lunch isn't that inconceivable. personally, i would suggest a large 1tb off the shelf drive to dump to on set. then, each night, dumping to a stack of blu-rays would be fine. they would last several years at which time you could move the data over to a holographic or super cheap raid system. remember, if you ever need to access all that archival data, you're gonna need to get it off the optical media anyway so why not leave it there until prices become insanely cheap for some large storage solution?