Asked before but need better answer..

[Jay A. Kelley]

Guys I have searched the other threads, but I cannot find the answer in "dummy Jay" terms.

Put simply,

When I use a B4 mount from Red or the 16mm mount and the windowed sensor, will there is an increase in the focal lenght and if so how much?

Thanks in advance.. If you want to send me a link to a thread that answers this simply that's cool
Jay

[Michael Morlan]

Jay,

As I understand it, there are no focal conversions associated with B4 or 16mm mounts. I believe the mounts replace the standard 35mm PL mount rather than adding to it. All mounts will focus the lens on the focal plane as expected by a native camera.

M

[tj williams]

1. I don't believe anyone from RED has said they will make a B4 mount
2. The windowed sensor despite copy on the RED site, seems to only be in the size of a super 16mm gate not also in 2/3" size
3. The adapter from abakus
http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf/product/index optically stretches the 2/3" over the S16 size target and corrects problems B4 video lenses have with single sensors. Therefore the field of view of the lens should remain constant.

There have been several discussions of this but I believe this summarizes it.

[Damien Molineaux]

Guys I have searched the other threads, but I cannot find the answer in "dummy Jay" terms.

Put simply,

When I use a B4 mount from Red or the 16mm mount and the windowed sensor, will there is an increase in the focal lenght and if so how much?

Thanks in advance.. If you want to send me a link to a thread that answers this simply that's cool
Jay

Hi Jay,

info about the B4 and a 16mm mount is not quite clear yet. Do some searching in the lens test section, there have been discussions about B4 and some tests have been made by Jarred. As far a S16 lenses go, the 2k windowed sensor is pretty much the size of S16 negative so focal length is maintained. Should be the case with B4 (and 16mm hopefully), as things stand it seems Red are going along with something along the Abakus adaptor which magnifies the image. Check these threads for a start:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=847

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=207

Cheers,
Damien

PS You haven't done much searching, that's why people don't reply.

[Anders Holck]

The Abekus adaptor will enlarge the image x1.32.
So the effective focal lenght will be magnified x1.32 times as well, but now the FOV relates to s16 gate size and not 2/3"

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hi Jay,

info about the B4 and a 16mm mount is not quite clear yet. Do some searching in the lens test section, there have been discussions about B4 and some tests have been made by Jarred. As far a S16 lenses go, the 2k windowed sensor is pretty much the size of S16 negative so focal length is maintained. Should be the case with B4 (and 16mm hopefully), as things stand it seems Red are going along with something along the Abakus adaptor which magnifies the image. Check these threads for a start:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=847

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=207

Cheers,
Damien

PS You haven't done much searching, that's why people don't reply.

Thanks Damien, but the replies on here so far show that indeed, I am not the only one confused regardless of the previous posts. However, there is talk of the abakus and a 1.32x increase.. However, I do remember Jarred being very clear that RED will have it's own B4 mount, but it may not release with the camera.

So the answer from what I can gather is that there will be no change to the focal lenght since RED's mounts REPLACE the existing mount. This is wonderful news.

Jay

[Anders Holck]

Well, the last post from Jarred (8/3) about this very issue:

Things can and most likely will change, but at this point, we are very confident with the abakus B4 solution
Post #20 at http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828&page=2 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828&page=2)

Which I read as they are going for the B4 to PL mount adapter, and currently will use the Abekus solution until further notice.

[Andrew M.]

Well, the last post from Jarred (8/3) about this very issue:

Post #20 at http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828&page=2 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=828&page=2)

Which I read as they are going for the B4 to PL mount adapter, and currently will use the Abekus solution until further notice.

IMHO I don’t think RED will build (in full meaning of this word) its own lenses, maybe in the future but not in this moment.
You are trying to capitalize on your strength and do subcontract to the experts in the field the week or time consuming parts of the business. Probably Abakus will get the order to manufacture some quantities of RED specific Abakus B4 mounts.
After all, RED customers have good purchasing power, we can actually place quantity order with some manufactures ourselves and demand some specific upgrades/changes to the product if we manage to get interesting enough committed quantities.
This could be done also by RED, on our behalf plus the management fee.
Example: if we gather committed quantity order for 800 primes of different kind we could place the order with one of the top manufactures of such lenses and ask them to make RED specific version of it if need be. Also RED could facilitate such order on our behalf if we commit to the order, then we get RED painted or engraved on it as a bonus.
Do not underestimate the power of 1500 RED owners’ members. After the NAB it could be 5000 of us. I will trust RED team to be responsive to our needs though, since it looks like listening to the customer wish is a major part of RED success.

[Steve Gibby]

From the very first announcement of the RED One camera system, RED has stated their intention to provide a B4 2/3" solution for the camera. In my published interview with Jim Jannard a year ago, he reiterated that. Several times since then, on RED forums, RED Team member have re-confirmed RED's intention to provide B4 2/3" support. Jarred mentioned RED's testing and satisfaction with the Abakus. Does that mean that RED's final solution will be Abakus, or will RED rely on Abakus as an initial solution and then fabricate their own adapter? That hasn't been clarified by RED, but I'm sure they will address that when the time is right. The very cool bottom line to me is that RED has intended from the beginning to support B4 2/3" use on RED One, and that has not changed. My guess is that they want to analyze and solve the tech issues involved with using B4 2/3" ENG lenses on a single sensor camera before they announce the exact direction they want to go on that.

[Jay A. Kelley]

From the very first announcement of the RED One camera system, RED has stated their intention to provide a B4 2/3" solution for the camera. In my published interview with Jim Jannard a year ago, he reiterated that. Several times since then, on RED forums, RED Team member have re-confirmed RED's intention to provide B4 2/3" support. Jarred mentioned RED's testing and satisfaction with the Abakus. Does that mean that RED's final solution will be Abakus, or will RED rely on Abakus as an initial solution and then fabricate their own adapter? That hasn't been clarified by RED, but I'm sure they will address that when the time is right. The very cool bottom line to me is that RED has intended from the beginning to support B4 2/3" use on RED One, and that has not changed. My guess is that they want to analyze and solve the tech issues involved with using B4 2/3" ENG lenses on a single sensor camera before they announce the exact direction they want to go on that.

Even today the RED website lists an optional b4 mount.. I agree Gibby, this is a major addition to RED and I doubt they will farm out something this important, but of course until this becomes clear, it's hard to say right now what exactly will happen.

Nevertheless you can all see why I asked this question yet again. The bottom line answer (For those that will ask in the future) is this:

Should RED come out with it's own b4 adaptor it is expected there will be NO increase in focal lenght, however at this time, we are not 100% sure what RED intends to do in this area. We BELIEVE they intend to come out with their own B4 mount, but talk of the abakus by JarRED has created a little doubt.

We do "know" that Red's B4 adaptor is not due out with the camera.

Jay

Jay

[Andrew M.]

The very cool bottom line to me is that RED has intended from the beginning to support B4 2/3" use on RED One, and that has not changed. My guess is that they want to analyze and solve the tech issues involved with using B4 2/3" ENG lenses on a single sensor camera before they announce the exact direction they want to go on that.



Gibby, look on this thread post #34
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=15918#post15918

The question I am contemplating right now is:
Should we push for magnifying the 2/3 size to full S35 on B4 mount adapter and then downers back to 2K or magnify it only to 2K window and leave it at that.
It is what Abakus is doing right now.

[Steve Gibby]

Andrew,

I think you raise some good issues in your post #34 on that thread. I wish I had some currently definitive answers for them. I would guess that the issues you raised have been or are being analyzed by the RED Team. I would also guess that when they've fully analyzed the issues, pluses, and minuses, they would set a course and post what that will be.

At some point in the future someone will undoubtedly manufacture a S35mm EFP style zoom lens with a PL mount. Such a lens on RED One would have its zoom servos enabled by RED's 12-volt auxiliary power, but be manual for aperture and focus. Such a lens would take advantage of RED's S35mm sensor capabilities (DOF, dynamic range, etc.), and in EFP production it would eliminate the need to use 2/3" glass, adapters, and follow focuses on RED at all. With compact zoom lenses, no support rods would be needed. S35mm run ‘n gun EFP production would be fully enabled. Medium to deep DOF is the norm for such production, thus no need for an AC or focus puller. If RED's 720p LCD, EVF, and focus assist all work as stated, single-person mobile S35mm EFP-style production would be a reality. If such a lens was produced by RED, and priced to be relatively affordable, like the other lenses RED is offering, I think it would sell extremely well to those who produce in the EFP industry. I'd buy one in a heartbeat. To be clear, I'm not saying that I have any knowledge that RED is thinking of producing such a lens. What I am saying is that the vast majority of the overall total of professional productions worldwide are EFP-style productions. Cine style productions, and specifically features, get a lot of press and attention, but in sheer volume of projects, EFP-style dwarfs cine-style in the workspace. That said, with S35 sensor cameras like RED One emerging, and others that will undoubtedly follow, I believe there will be an ever-growing demand for S35mm EFP-style zoom lenses. If they're affordable, economies of scale will determine that they will potentially be a moneymaker for whoever produces them. In terms of macroeconomics there is an exponentially growing demand for such, and zero supply of such...

[Andrew M.]

So far I don’t see any broadcast cameras with the S35 sensor size.
Once it will happen there will be a big demand for ENG/EFP type of lenses supporting S35 sensor size. However most camera makers will release the camera and lenses with it.
So the good business is to make better camera for existing lenses or better lenses for existing cameras. So RED is much better camera for existing S35 lenses for film based cameras. RED is also much better camera for B4 ENG lenses designed for 2/3 sensor size. To design new ENG lenses for S35 size it is whole new project all together and not a big market out there yet for it. If RED will actually design such lenses in a partnership with some good lenses manufacture, then it will open a huge market of broadcast industry for RED camera. Let’s face it, the market for cinematography sector is very small fraction of market of the broadcast sector. IMHO broadcast industry is already digital since long time, so RED will be just an incremental upgrade to the larger sensor and will spell the end to the tape as a main broadcast storage medium.

[Steve Gibby]

Andrew,

My reference to EFP (electronic field production) in my post above, includes broadcast production. All EFP isn't broadcast, and all broadcast isn't EFP - some is ENG. I avoided using the term ENG (electronic news gathering) in my post because saying ENG immediately generates "RED isn't for news" responses (obviously). Though RED is designed really well for cine-style production, RED One is also engineered quite well for non-hardlined EFP production. Now that I've clarified the meaning of the terms in my post, I think you can see that we agree that EFP/broadcast use of RED One is a huge market - in fact the biggest potential market for RED One. That said, there are currently no S35mm EFP zoom lenses on the market, but there will be a growing demand for them for use on RED One and other S35mm, EFP capable camera systems that undoubtedly will be manufactured in the near future. I think there's a good opportunity for lens manufacturers to fill that demand...

[Andrew M.]

Gibby, agree 100%
Are there any independent manufactures of EFP/ENG lenses out there?

[Steve Gibby]

I don't think there are...but RED could be the first if they chose to service that demand.

[Andrew M.]

This will open a huge market segment for RED.
I see few non broadcast lens manufactures though that will be a good target for cooperation/acquisition or merger for RED with a lot of experience in it.

Looks like for the 4K cameras lenses will be as important as other part of the equation.

[Steve Gibby]

I think that at NAB we'll all get a much more clear picture of what's available, what's planned, and how we can fit it into our collective cine-style and EFP-style workflows, equipment needs, and budgets. If someone can't make it to NAB, I'd watch this site, the RED site, and your other favorite manufacturer's web sites during the NAB days.

Fun times indeed...!

[chuck colburn]

Mayby someone like Jim Bartell could incorperate one of his wireless zoom and focus units to work with existing drive motors on the eng lenses. You know make some rocker switches that would mount on the hand grips that would be used for that type of shooting. That way you would also have a wireless unit that would also work for the tradtional motion picture style of shooting.

[Steve Gibby]

Mayby someone like Jim Bartell could incorperate one of his wireless zoom and focus units to work with existing drive motors on the eng lenses. You know make some rocker switches that would mount on the hand grips that would be used for that type of shooting. That way you would also have a wireless unit that would also work for the tradtional motion picture style of shooting.

Very cool suggestion...