Shooting old HD on the Red

[I Bloom]

So I know this topic has been discussed and their is a chart on the red.com site, but I'm still confused. Here is what I need to know:

So on the format options chart it lists 1080p RGB and 720p RGB as being available for 35mm, 16mm, and B4 lenses:

Question #1: Does this mean that when I shoot 720p RGB with 35mm lenses, that a larger image (4K of just about) is sampled, scaled down and compressed?

Question #2: If I am correct then this 720p image would have the same field of view as the 4k image and thus the same depth of field as 35mm film?

Question #3: Is the compression in camera only the redcode wavelet or can it also do the standard DCT HD that can be edited today on FCP?

I'd love to shoot 4K all the time, take it back to my office and transfer it with Redcine and I'll certainly do that for all my dramatic work, but these questions really come down making a camera pay for itself and knowing what some of my clients want and how fast they want it.

Thanks,
Ian Bloom
Red #six hundred something
http://www.ianbloom.com

[Chris Kenny]

#1: Yes.
#2: Yes.
#3: Wavelet only, as far as has been announced.

[Brook Willard]

Chris is correct on the first two. More clarification for #3:

720p = REDCODE RGB [wavelet] only in camera. You could connect an external deck to the camera's HD-SDI output if you required a different form of compression for some reason.

Also be aware that REDCODE RAW [4K] data rates may be lower than certain REDCODE RGB [HD] data rates. Also know that the first ~100 cameras may not be able to compress REDCODE RGB [HD] in camera until enabled via firmware update.

[tj williams]

Ian from rather long and conflicting other posts I gather this:

Yes S16 and 35mm size sensor support RGB HD directly out.

No B4 lense will not go directly on the camera, Abakus adapter will spread the image over the S16 size windowed sensor. same field of view as the original B4 lens but loss of about 1/3 stop.

Yes 720 P is a downsampled 4K so it should look pretty terrific compared to say 900F

Question three I believe wavelet proprietary format fm RED which is also quicktime compatable...but not sure here.

[Paul Hazlett]

From what I have read the B4 mount for red to replace the pl mount will come later.

[I Bloom]

720p = REDCODE RGB [wavelet] only in camera. You could connect an external deck to the camera's HD-SDI output if you required a different form of compression for some reason.


Thanks for the responses.

Using the old style compression is preferable to wavelet only in the situation where you have a client with an existing HD post pipeline that isn't going to want to deal with something new. Show most people the difference between a JPEG and a JPEG2000 and they might not understand or even see the way that a camera person with a trained eye will see. I think thats why the web still runs on JPEG and most media still runs on Discrete Cosine Transform.

As a general note to the 4K enthusiasts I think it's important to understand that camera guys like us don't always get to make these choices. And often this choice for a producer is really the choice of hiring one person with one piece of equiptment or another person with another piece of equiptment. Many producers are not going to understand why the footage straight out of the camera is not ready to go and why they need to buy so many drives. Which means that the more that the Red One can do in camera that is compatible with existing HD pipelines the more work you can get and the more you can say to your clients "at the end of the day your editor will get a drive full of quicktimes that they can put directly on a timeline."

Redcine sounds great but not for every job. If Final Cut eventually supports redcode natively even better but how long will it be before that happens. I'm just hoping that Red can do everything that Sony and Panasonic can already do, and then give us plenty more options. I'm hoping that Jim and his awesome team can see the importance of that to their new customers on a purely financial basis.

Cheers,
Ian Bloom
http://www.ianbloom.com

[Evin Grant]

As far as I understand it Redcode is a Quicktime codec. You Should be able to hand your client a drive with either Redcode 720 or 1080 RGB and a CD with the codec on it, the editor installs the codec and any quicktime compatible NLE (FCP, Avid HD or Premier Pro) should be able to drop it in the timeline. The only hold up may be data rates and processor performance. These will need to be tested and certified by Red. But as far as cutting goes, you shouldn't have a problem handing a client a Redcode RGB drive, right off the camera if necessary.

[Stuart English]

Ian for end users with "a client with an existing HD post pipeline that isn't going to want to deal with something new" the ONLY solution will be to invoke REDCINE to convert the camera's pristine source footage to whatever image quality they are currently satisfied with. Or you could shoot directly to tape via HD-SDI.

[Anders Holck]

Stuart, any easy way to match the timecode of the redcode raw on disk to a deck mounted to the HD_SDI connetors?
Can't think I'd ever want to do that, but you newer know....

[I Bloom]

As far as I understand it Redcode is a Quicktime codec. You Should be able to hand your client a drive with either Redcode 720 or 1080 RGB and a CD with the codec on it, the editor installs the codec and any quicktime compatible NLE (FCP, Avid HD or Premier Pro) should be able to drop it in the timeline.

I think there is a difference between being quicktime compatible and being able to edit natively in a format. If an editor has to render everything they drop on a timeline I don't think that counts.

HD and its native compression method are not ready to be abandoned just because something better has come along. Redcine will be a hassle no matter what they tell you, they can't change the amount of computations that will need to be performed not matter how good they are at their job. A straight HD option in the camera's firmware is really important for many many tasks that people will want to use this camera for. It's hard for me to believe I'm the only one who feels this way. I hope we don't all loose our shirts on this deal.

Ian Bloom
http://www.ianbloom.com

[Chris Kenny]

I think there is a difference between being quicktime compatible and being able to edit natively in a format. If an editor has to render everything they drop on a timeline I don't think that counts.
http://www.ianbloom.com

Assuming your sequence settings match your footage, you can edit with almost any QuickTime codec in FCP without having to render just for playback. You don't get any real-time features, so you have to render color correction, dissolves, etc. But not just for playing things on the timeline and straight cuts.

I'm not sure if this will work with REDCODE RAW, because you can't encode to that format (which would be necessary for rendering), but I can't see any reason why you couldn't edit natively with REDCODE RGB.

Perhaps RED could support both formats in the same QuickTime component so you could set up an FCP sequence for just 'REDCODE' and then drop RAW footage into the timeline, but FCP would actually be encoding to REDCODE RGB when it rendered things.