Convincing the Agency?

[Kip Hewitt]

I have been asked to give a Red Camera presentation for a group of Ad Agencies & Production Companies and I'm wondering if some of you good people can help me with my homework. I'm working on a bullet point list of benefits, the so called "Why Choose Red?" list, and I'm having some trouble finding the real compelling nuggets. I know why I love this camera, and I know why you guys love this camera, but what's gonna convince the folks not sitting in the choir to pick this system over DV/HD/35?

Like a lot of you I have had my share of conversations with producers who like to say: "We hear Red is great and all but... we have some reservations" (usually it's the on-set DIT cost or they are under a deadline and it's the post-production they are nervous about).

So I am looking to build a compelling case and I was hoping perhaps some of you could share with me any strategies you've had convincing your clients.

Just to give you some perspective these agencies are used to working with mid-range budgets between 50K & 300K.

Here's a couple things I've come up with so far (in no perticular order):

1) Cost -- Depending on how you slice it the cost of Red is about what you pay for HD, but the image quality is more in line with 35mm.

2) Multi Distribution -- From digital cinema, to plasma, to iPod the image is endlessly changeable. Your web content has the potential to look as vivid as a Movie Trailer on the Apple site.

3) TIFF file extraction -- Each frame has the potential to be a picture in a magazine / brochure / billboard.

4) EFX -- Plays well with green/blue screen

5) On-set feedback -- The on-set workflow has an immediate and collaborative dynamic similar to what digital photography has enjoyed for years. Know when you've got it, know it's gonna look great.

6) Variable Frame Rate -- Everybody loves slow motion!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel like I'm missing some big things so hopefully this can get a dialogue going. And who knows, maybe we will all come out a little better equipped to change their minds?

Or at least we just get our stories straight ;-|

Thank you
-99

[Greg Greene]

I think those are all good points, i have been wondering about this myself, i think the proof will come from what you show them, and even then some will get it and others wont...

Best

GT

[David Birdy]

The commercial house I spoke with sees a big benefited to shooting their own footage and Not having to send the 35MM footage to LA for a DI.
I would presume some of the savings would be passed onto the end user.

I would add a faster turn around time compared to traditional 35 mm, and reduced concern about the film development procedure.

The RED One allows creative people more options for a specific "look" they may want and the ability to use cinema glass to achieve depth of field. This camera adds the benefit of HD with out the traditional “harsh video” look that other cameras are known for.

Some great examples can be found on RED relay, you may want to contact Ted from RED or PM him on this forum, His PM name is tedred.

I do not know of any producer or production company that is not constantly trying to reduce costs, (after 20 years of this I wish I did know a few!) So this may be your main point.
RED One has reduced cost for an image very similar to 35MM.

One area still in flux is the 4K post production work flow....but at least a few hundred people are working on that right now!

PM me if you want to talk more and good luck today!

Dave

[Greg David]

I know why I love this camera, and I know why you guys love this camera, but what's gonna convince the folks not sitting in the choir
-

Looks like they picked the right person.


Best of luck to you. The list looks good so far.

[purefilm]

For a commercial

Try this: On a normal 35mm shoot you are going to have a loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC and opperator (DP). With Red you are going to replace the Loader with the DIT. The Draw back here is that the DIT commissions more money than the loader. You can sell the DIT as a trained professionals who will limit the cost by delivering the best image, exposure, do compression, manage files and color correction before going in post. clients will also be able to see a close to finished image before they leave for the day.

Second point: 400ft = 6 minutes of 24 FSP costing $100 a roll. Depending on the the shoot you are looking to doing on an average 15 - 20 rolls a day shot adding up to $1500 - $2000.

Then you have to go through processing at $.22 a ft + Telecine rate at $650 an HR.

On red the DIT replaces the cost of the lab, cuting the cost more than half.

[Jim McKinney]

For a commercial

Try this: On a normal 35mm shoot you are going to have a loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC and opperator (DP). With Red you are going to replace the Loader with the DIT. The Draw back here is that the DIT commissions more money than the loader. You can sell the DIT as a trained professionals who will limit the cost by delivering the best image, exposure, do compression, manage files and color correction before going in post. clients will also be able to see a close to finished image before they leave for the day.

Second point: 400ft = 6 minutes of 24 FSP costing $100 a roll. Depending on the the shoot you are looking to doing on an average 15 - 20 rolls a day shot adding up to $1500 - $2000.

Then you have to go through processing at $.22 a ft + Telecine rate at $650 an HR.

On red the DIT replaces the cost of the lab, cuting the cost more than half.
"Okay," says the agency or production house. "But are any additional post production costs with the Red?"

How would you answer that one?

(Hey 99, thanks for starting what should be a very useful thread.)

[Brent J. Craig]

I wouldn't focus on#3 - using as a still camera - because shooting stils and shooting motion pictures are completely different things. One example: shooting for 24fps, your shutter speed would be 1/48. This will almost always give too much motion blur for stills. Why not just change the shutter to something more stills-like? Because without motion blur, most video looks weird. AND 8.3 megapixels (4K 2:1) is definitely on the very low end of commercial photography.

#6 - slow motion - 30fps isn't very slow. Most productions, especially commercials won't go for switching to 16mm resolution for slow-mo. Not to mention what that does to the post workflow.

I would focus more on number 2 - multi distribution - emphasizing that you can output Red footage to HD and to cinema commercials without 'retransferring'.

The fact that they can get cinematic depth of field for costs similar to an HD shoot should be huge. You will need to dumb this (way) down and show some very clear examples. Remember most of them don't work for ad agencies because MENSA wasn't hiring. :-)

Be careful discussing costs, because production companies who are already hurting from razor-thin margins will want to move some of the savings they get with Red into their own profit column. Remember the ad agencies are the production company's clients. Helping production co's stay in business helps us keep working.

Emphasize that the post end of things takes a real committment at this point in time. Things will get better (probably right after NAB) but for now the entire post team has to be completely on board and knowing what to expect. Recommend they hold a conference call before each job with: Producer, Director, DP, Red Tech/AC, Post Supervisor, Online house. The last thing the Red revolution needs is a bunch of commercial houses that get burned by huge overages in post because people assumed it would be just like film.


Other small points to throw in:

-motion control - this is a rock-solid metal camera body that will not budge on a mo-co rig. HD cameras, without exception, are made of plastic and wiggle around a surprising amount on a motion control rig or lock-off shot

-100% solid state - when using CF cards there are no moving parts. No worries about vibration

-no film processing / video transfer - files (QT proxies) are ready to use right away in supported editing systems. There is no need to wait for processing and transfer to start cutting. BUT emphasize the need for a proper DI/Color session before delivery. RedAlert/Cine are great, but they do not replace skilled Colorists and million-dollar suites.

-great looking video tap on set - clients can see a very good representation of how their product will look. Some Red crews show up with huge plasma/lcd monitors that will definitely impress the agency's clients, which is more important than you can imagine.

-Security and backups - since the footage starts out digital, you can make as many copies as you want for backups. No more worries and liabilities fedexing your only negative off to NYC for transfer. Everyone can go home with a hard drive if they want.


...I'm sure I have some more to offer. Will leave this processing in the background as I do other stuf today...

[Jim McKinney]

Emphasize that the post end of things takes a real committment at this point in time. Things will get better (probably right after NAB) but for now the entire post team has to be completely on board and knowing what to expect. Recommend they hold a conference call before each job with: Producer, Director, DP, Red Tech/AC, Post Supervisor, Online house. The last thing the Red revolution needs is a bunch of commercial houses that get burned by huge overages in post because people assumed it would be just like film.

. . .

You make some very good points, especially the one I just quoted here.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the still photography benefit. One could change the shutter speed and grab a frame from that. On the lower budget jobs, this could be a good solution.

[purefilm]

Being a loader/2nd I have a strong understanding of the production work-Flow. However I do not have a strong understanding of the post work-flow. What I figure is the work-flow in post can not be much different than film. I could be wrong.

If anyone can answer the post side, please chime in.

[Brent J. Craig]

Being a loader/2nd I have a strong understanding of the production work-Flow. However I do not have a strong understanding of the post work-flow. What I figure is the work-flow in post can not be much different than film. I could be wrong.

The work flow is quite a bit different. This is something all of us production types are struggling to understand.

As our jobs are being changed by all this new digital stuff, we have to be much more aware of post and the consequences of the camera choices we make on set.

Go to any and all Red workflow demos you can find. Talk to editors and post houses. Find a sympathetic producer that will let you observe the entire post process.

[Brent J. Craig]

I know I will get spanked for this, but perhaps you could mention that at $20K (Red, CF, Nikon lens) this camera is semi-disposable.

As commercials are getting more and more cutting edge with extreme stunts and crazy shots, $20,000 to get a killer angle in the same quality as the rest of the spot is actually pretty reasonable. With advertisers paying over $2 million to run a commercial in the Super Bowl, I could see shoots wrecking a few $20,000 cameras to create the most memorable spot.

[Kip Hewitt]

Remember most of them don't work for ad agencies because MENSA wasn't hiring. :-)


This is so true. I think I might use this as my part of my opening statements :-)

These are all great suggestions, everyone, thank you. The presentation is not until early April so please don't feel rushed with this. If you guys have any more ideas please drop them in and I will definitely be keeping my eye on this thread.

[Jason Ing]

Could you post what you have as you go along?

[NateWeaver]

Some other thoughts...

Talking about cost savings if you're not an actual, working line producer is risky. Frankly put, if a agency/proco is working at a certain level, the savings of working with Red are not great. They're still going to have to pay for footage conversion (lab), and they're still going to have to pay for "telecine" (which is now tape-to-tape color correction, or possibly 2k DPX conform with good colorist), which will cost just as much as they were paying before.

Simply put, I think the benefits for big boys come if their raw stock budget was say, $20K or more. That's one or two days of one camera 35mm on an average spot. Add multiple cameras and/or high speed, and that figure goes through the roof.

NOW, if the budget level was more 16mm or Varicam/F900 (or less!) in the first place, then the argument is much more compelling, maybe even a no-brainer. You get a drastically better image for much cheaper.

[Chris Parker]

they can now go 2 cameras without adding a dime in film costs....i bet they could shoot with 2 cameras for the same cost as a normal 1-camera film shoot (including the extra crew needed). they could get their day faster in many cases due to this....

i think you'll see a lot more 2-camera shoots in the future because of this....

good for ACs looking for work

[Kip Hewitt]

Some other thoughts...

Talking about cost savings if you're not an actual, working line producer is risky. Frankly put, if a agency/proco is working at a certain level, the savings of working with Red are not great. They're still going to have to pay for footage conversion (lab), and they're still going to have to pay for "telecine" (which is now tape-to-tape color correction, or possibly 2k DPX conform with good colorist), which will cost just as much as they were paying before.

Simply put, I think the benefits for big boys come if their raw stock budget was say, $20K or more. That's one or two days of one camera 35mm on an average spot. Add multiple cameras and/or high speed, and that figure goes through the roof.

NOW, if the budget level was more 16mm or Varicam/F900 (or less!) in the first place, then the argument is much more compelling, maybe even a no-brainer. You get a drastically better image for much cheaper.

Yeah, i totally agree. The cost saving thing is a pretty relative equation. One person's bargain is another person's fortune. However, we are all in this thing to make some money, so I won't be painting too rosy of a picture.

[donatello b]

i know a commercial that shot 4k on RED week ago - agency was on set and approved all shots ... later in post they decided they didn't like framing on 2 shots - so they moved in 30-40% - they loved it because there was NO grain compared to past experience moving in on 35mm and seeing allot of grain ..
production company says if they had shot on film they might of had to reshoot the 2 shots ( product) = everybody is happy !

[Zakaree Sandberg]

just say.. "everyones doing it" force them in with peer pressure

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I could see shoots wrecking a few $20,000 cameras to create the most memorable spot.

with CGI the way it is today.. its pretty retarded to have to wreck equipment. I see what your saying, its possible without breaking the bank.. but not necessarily necessary

[Greg David]

i know a commercial that shot 4k on RED week ago - agency was on set and approved all shots ... later in post they decided they didn't like framing on 2 shots - so they moved in 30-40% - they loved it because there was NO grain compared to past experience moving in on 35mm and seeing allot of grain ..
production company says if they had shot on film they might of had to reshoot the 2 shots ( product) = everybody is happy !

good post

[Brent J. Craig]

just say.. "everyones doing it" force them in with peer pressure

Tell them you saw an article in Boards magazine that said focus groups love Red commercials and automatically make them the viral clips of the year. :-)

[Kip Hewitt]

The work flow is quite a bit different. This is something all of us production types are struggling to understand.

As our jobs are being changed by all this new digital stuff, we have to be much more aware of post and the consequences of the camera choices we make on set.

Go to any and all Red workflow demos you can find. Talk to editors and post houses. Find a sympathetic producer that will let you observe the entire post process.

As an editor this is the area that I see first hand. The challenges with storage and down-convert time are absolutely real and pretty labor intensive for sure (but honestly, to me, it's really no worse than Logging and Digitizing which I've always sorta loathed).

Right now I try to really understand my clients and if they are running scared on a deadline and they want this system to perform like the 5 o'clock news then I tell them (even if I really need the money :-) that this is probably not the camera choice to make.

But, if they are more concerned with image quality then with deadline then, you know, let's talk.

Some post production advantages:

1) Reframing Compositions (thank you Donatello -- this is a great suggestion -- and one, I'm sure, DP's everywhere will love us for ;-)

2) TRUE 1920x1080 HD, not that wimpy 720 poor-mans-HD.

3) DESK TOP COLOR GRADING -- Not just color correcting, but real, honest-to-god COLOR GRADING!!! (I've been able to do some s**t in After Effects that just blows my mind. Never before have I experienced raw image malleability like I have with Red. It's not real time, it's not a SCRATCH/QUANTEL sexy system, but if you've got the time, man, the results are truly staggering).

4) The previously mentioned Broadcast scalability (iPod to IMAX... maybe?)

5) Timeless image quality -- Ten years from now this stuff isn't gonna look like 10 year old Betacam footage (unlike HD). This may be a bit early to say for sure, but I truly believe that there is a timelessness to well shot Red footage. Just as there has been with good color film for the past 30 or 40 years.

6) Shoot that day, edit that night -- I was talking with someone on the Soderberg shoot and she said that for this reason alone Steven was absolutely in love with Red.

7) All the cool kids are doing it (thank you Zakaree -- this, I believe, is the real secret. Just look at how well it's worked for weed).

-- and I'm talking commercial/music video productions, here, I have yet to mount any TV/Feature work so I can't speak about those just yet.

And as far as the clients with "Post-Reservations," well if they decide to use me as their editor I just tell them not to worry, I charge by the day/week (not the hour) and if something goes wrong, well, you are part of the pioneers now and you've gotta have some faith that it will somehow work out in the end. And I have to take an arrow in the back to make it right, well then that's me paying my due to the RED gods.

The tech stuff will all get easier, so I feel like right now, if I'm going to "hook-them-in" I can't be holding on to the old antiquated Post House model. But I work out of my home studio and I realize this is not practical for everyone.

Any other post production advantages that I am missing?

-99

[Kip Hewitt]

Something else I think I'm gonna make a special point of is aspect ratio:

I believe the power of a 2:35 cinematic aspect ratio will resonate pretty clearly with Ad people. Next to 24fps nothing says drama like true wide screen. With all the YouTube video and reality TV out there advertisers looking to set their product apart should be taking some of their cues from Hollywood movies. I mean, wasn't widescreen invented to steal people back from their Televisions?

You can show your 2:35 commercial on a movie screen and you can always crop a 4x3 image out of it if you really wanted too.

[Chris B. Hill]

Hi everyone, One really cool aspect of the Red Camera I haven’t seen on the threads to add to the list is: The Red Camera can give you on set video playback in the actual frame rate you shot it in, off speed, time-lapse just try that with any other camera out there! When playing it back from the camera's playback function the video assist guy on the set can record the actual frame rate signal through a down converter so they can reference back to it when ever they want. This is a really big deal for the clients and everyone else on the set, I know first hand from being a video assist operator & supplier for many years.

Chris B. Hill
Hill Digital
http://www.hilldigital.com

[Brent J. Craig]

I believe the power of a 2:35 cinematic aspect ratio will resonate pretty clearly with Ad people.

In my experience most of them will wonder where the rest of the screen has gone. Why are there black bars at the top and bottom? We're paying for the whole screen, dammit!

:-)

[Kip Hewitt]

Hi everyone, One really cool aspect of the Red Camera I haven’t seen on the threads to add to the list is: The Red Camera can give you on set video playback in the actual frame rate you shot it in, off speed, time-lapse just try that with any other camera out there! When playing it back from the camera's playback function the video assist guy on the set can record the actual frame rate signal through a down converter so they can reference back to it when ever they want. This is a really big deal for the clients and everyone else on the set, I know first hand from being a video assist operator & supplier for many years.

Chris B. Hill
Hill Digital
http://www.hilldigital.com

Yeah this is good, and when multi-monitor out becomes available... slo-mo heaven!


In my experience most of them will wonder where the rest of the screen has gone. Why are there black bars at the top and bottom? We're paying for the whole screen, dammit!

:-)

hahaha, I'm sure our great great grandchildren will still be fighting the letterbox war.

[Poi Boy]

I have some pretty savy AD agency friends, clients may be a little stupid but not the creatives I work with.
Aloha
-A

[Jason Wingrove]

Ok Just been through this and had a major multi national client and agency with some concerns heading into the unknown.

First i found some clips, and trailers, not necessarily red clips but genesis, ie "Apocalypto", "Superman returns" and "crossing the line" well that allayed the quality and look concerns, the next step was to discuss some benefits.

Firstly WYSIWYG video splits. Having a really great idea of the finished product. No fuzzy ground glasses, my agency really appreciated the 35mm looking crystal clear images on set all day. and it didnt work against us with them being pixel perfect fussy either. Surprisingly didn't change their behaviour in that regard.

Secondly I was shooting subjects that weren't going to stand for reloads every 4 minutes so the ability to be rolling for ages between reloads appealed especially as i pitched it that reloads really change the mood if the set and can really interrupt the flow of a set, just wehen everyones getting into the groove and getting up to speed.

Thirdly of course film / processing costs but if your really from a production company and your pitching it to an agency they don't care about the aquisition costs at all, its your budget so as long as you can do it for the money, and the format you've chosen isn't a quality compromise and the money you save goes on the screen they should be happy.

Lastly it actually saved us time as we really knew when critical focus was good or bad, for this job we had lots of unpredictable performers and not having to do another safety take for focus 'just incase' My AC was pulling directly from Ob monitors and a 17" monitor right next to him so there was very little if any lost takes for sharps. And when there was we knew straight away without any watching back and second guessing that it was go/no go.

Anyway like all agencies all the panic and fussing was in pre, once we were rolling it all evaporated and they ended up feeling that they were really 'too cool for school' by shooting with the cutting edge gear.

I know here in Oz the whole agencies & post setup is a bit different, more like europe, but a lot of the psychology applies. I, like you was worrying going into it, feeling like i was dragging everyone kicking and screaming into the 21st century and hoping my zest for red wasnt going to bite me in the bum but they walked away ecstatic with the rushes and on whole set experience.