Build 15 update...

[Jannard]

Build 15 is coming along nicely... but we want to spend more time testing before we release it since it is so significant to the RED program.

We hope to release beta versions around March 1st. Solid build around March 10th.

We think this will be the most important firmware update so far because it is mostly about image improvement. Try to keep your expectations under control. It will not add 30 stops of dynamic range and eliminate all noise at ISO 4000. But it will significantly improve the image quality from your RED ONE.

Jim

[Daniel Gourley]

Yeah! I'm the first!!!! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i am the 2nd

Build 14 is almost ready for you. We are anxious to deliver a 2nd Christmas to our customers.

What is NOT in Build 14. The "magic" image. That is Build 15. So is multiple simultaneous outputs.

But don't discount Build 14 as anything but "Landmark". I won't sleep the night we put it out waiting for the responses...

Just so you know... on a one to ten, Build 14 is a 14... and Build 15 is a 15.

Jim
hope it will be as you promised:biggrin: thanks Jim

[Patrick Tresch]

Nice!

So I'll plan to shoot build 15 tests the 10th of April!:biggrin:

Thanks for the update!

Pat

[JarredKrakow]

Try to keep your expectations under control. It will not add 30 stops of dynamic range and eliminate all noise at ISO 4000. But it will significantly improve the image quality from your RED ONE.

Jim

A good way to manage expectations is actually say what Build 15 does. How many stops of DR does it add? Does it solve the black sun issue? Does it decrease noise in the blue channel? etc.

[Jannard]

A good way to manage expectations is actually say what Build 15 does. How many stops of DR does it add? Does it solve the black sun issue? Does it decrease noise in the blue channel? etc.

Nice try...

Jim

[Warren Kommers]

I would be amazed if it was a stop and a half and low noise at 1000.

I'm so curious as to how far firmware manipulation will be able to improve the image. In other words what is the threshold of where it becomes about the the limits of the hardware. Fascinating dorky stuff. Looking forward to it.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

.... if you think Build 14 is a Christmas present ... wait till they release RedAert & RedCine with Graeme's a new demosiac ... that is like a glass of fine champagne on New Years Eve ...
i wonder if 15 will be released with a new REDCINE Graeme's a new demosiac :excl:

[Jannard]

The players involved in Build 15 are Graeme, Deanan, Rob, Stuart, and Jarred. This is the RED "A" team for DSP, code, testing and overall "forwardthinkingness".

Jim

[Gian Joon]

It has already given a fright to big brothers like panavision and sony, what will happen to them after BUILD 15.

EMERGENCY SERVICES ON STANDBY, PLEASE......:sarcasm:

[Sanjin Jukic]

One more DR stop would be amazing,

two more DR stops would be fantastic,

three more DR stops would be absolutely fantastic (don't believe in that).

Black sun and blue channel are not serious issues.

I wait and see as all of us.

[Jannard]

Did I forget to mention that multiple outputs are also in Build 15?

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Jim... Is it a significant image change or will I have to pull frames and isolate channels to really see it? Just want to know where to keep my expectations.

[Brook Willard]

And simultaneous outputs is huge... Is it ALL outputs? Can I run the EVF, LCD and preview together?

[Brent J. Craig]

It will not add 30 stops of dynamic range and eliminate all noise at ISO 4000.

All right! 29 stops and ISO 3200. Yahoo!

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

The black sun IS a big issue. I hope it's resolved in 15.

Thanks for the update Jim.

[Corrado Silveri]

Wow, Jim.
We are all thrilled.
I'm so happy already, that I can't imagine the next step...

Thanks, again.

[Warren Kommers]

Are there any plans for having a RAW view mode on preview? Rec 709 is so contrasty and difficult to light from. The Viper let's you toggle and it is so helpful. At this point I just have to use the monitor only for framing and it gets old telling people this doesn't represent what is being recorded. Pretty please.

[Jon Corcuera]

Jim you certainly know how to play with our emotions.
Jon Corcuera

[Evin Grant]

Personally I'm keeping my expectations tempered...
1 Stop DR improvement (most likely in the shadows).
Corresponding 2/3 stop better shadow noise.
Purple Sun fix

If build 15 can to this I'll be very happy, if it can do better I'll be ecstatic.
Although just having simultaneous outputs will be HUGE!

[Joel Kaye]

Personally I'm keeping my expectations tempered...
1 Stop DR improvement (most likely in the shadows).
Corresponding 2/3 stop better shadow noise.
Purple Sun fix


My guess is there's going to be some intelligent noise reduction built in either on camera or in REDCINE... perhaps both. Maybe it'll target the blue channel... or copy info from parts of another channel to increase blue channel density.

These guys are starting to squeeze the sensor for what it's worth. The next question is when does the next sensor come out?

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

The players involved in Build 15 are Graeme, Deanan, Rob, Stuart, and Jarred. Jim
thanks for all redteam .you are all awsome:turned:

[Daniel Reichenbach]

14 still beta and Jim knows how to keep us thrilled.

[Jannard]

Improvements will not stop at Build 15, but this build is a major step along the path. In past builds, we have stabilized firmware, killed bugs, enabled features, added new features (like 3K), solved fan issues, etc. We can always do more. And we will.

Jim

[Evin Grant]

A new sensor is an interesting question, I just bought a Nikon D3 and I'm a little flabbergasted by it's noise control. I'm getting images at ISO 6400 that look like Red images at ISO 640. Granted the D3 can't do 24FPS but it can do 9FPS
and do windowing to DX and 4:3 aspects ratios. There is obviously some on chip mojo going on in both but it's still unclear how much of the Mysterium's shadow noise character is the chip and how much is Redcode. I've definitely seen changes to the image as the builds progressed. They're subtle and mostly positive but I do sense more mosquito texture in the post 12 builds Vs. their predecessors. (Although not in RC36) Overall this means very little except that there is still room for improvement. Hence build 15. I doubt Red will consider upgrading the sensor until they truly squeeze every last bit out of the Mysterium and it is truly threatened by another camera. That still seems at least two years off as even Sony will not have a 4K 35mm camera till 2009 earliest.
Even then, Red will rule the playing field, and rightly so.

[Shawn Nelson]

And simultaneous outputs is huge... Is it ALL outputs? Can I run the EVF, LCD and preview together?

Anything less would be a disappointment!

[Christian Berg]

Sounds nice Jim!

Outputs to HDMI, LCD and EVF is high up on my wishlist... then I am happy.

Thanks for all the extra.
Christian

[MikeHedge]

is the black sun/highlight issue fixed? anyone know if this has been tested?

[Adrian T.]

Black sun and blue channel are not serious issues.

Black sun IS a serious issue!
Sanjin, how can you say that not even having your camera yet?
I experience the black "sun" issue in many of my shots. Of course it's not always the sun but mostly some small short reflection of a bright source. It doesn't look nice if it's black.


i wonder if 15 will be released with a new REDCINE Graeme's a new demosiac :excl:

Demosaic is done in post (RedCine, Red Alert etc.) - so it has nothing to do with build 15 which is a camera upgrade. Unless they change the format in such a way that both firmware AND post software needs to be upgraded at the same time.

Jim, I'm dying to know what build 15 will bring to us. I'm fully confident that it will be awesome! :biggrin:

[Evin Grant]

D3 ISO 6400
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/D36400.jpg

[Jay A. Kelley]

Through extensive research, I have found out that build 15 will enable the mysterium sensor to have a range that will span all visable light and infa-red all at once.

There is even a port coming that will allow the camera to do your dishes and replace women as we know it.

[ChrisLyon]

The players involved in Build 15 are Graeme, Deanan, Rob, Stuart, and Jarred. This is the RED "A" team for DSP, code, testing and overall "forwardthinkingness".
I want to have a job title of forwardthinkinger

edit: of course, tester would be great. shoot, jim, if you wanted to you could just ship me a couple of reds to test and I'll forward them onto their owners! :)

[Kjetil Haugen]

Still learning build 14 (and the camera in general) and there's already a new build coming! Exciting times. Got the camera yesterday and I'm so impressed with what you guys have done.

[Patrick Tresch]

A friend of mine wich is an AFP photographer shoots everything @ 2500 ASA with the nikon D3. You don't see any grain. Big evolution has been made by Nikon.

See you.

Pat

[Thom Steinhoff]

As far as I know build 15 will allow us to see into other dimensions. "I see Red people..."

Can't wait!

[Brent J. Craig]

D3 ISO 6400

W-O-W-!

That is impressive. Does the D300 look the same?

[wshultz]

I appreciate the caution to keep expectations under control. The last 10 to 15% usually takes as much effort as the first 85% and the improvements are often subtle.

[C.H.Haskell]

I feel much better about taking april delivery knowing that I will get a solid RED ONE with a solid build 15!

[Jannard]

A new sensor is an interesting question, I just bought a Nikon D3 and I'm a little flabbergasted by it's noise control. I'm getting images at ISO 6400 that look like Red images at ISO 640.

Nikon, along with Canon, have had years of practice on this stuff... give us a couple of months to catch up. :-)

Jim

[Greg Syverson]

A couple months: come on....the way the RED teams works, you only need a few weeks. Go RED Go!!!!!

[Dj Joofa]

Granted the D3 can't do 24FPS but it can do 9FPS and do windowing to DX and 4:3 aspects ratios.

It is easier to have better noise immunity at a lower frame rate, and one is many times surprised to see that with night-time shots, or shots with low illumination. The integration time (exposure time) of a sensor may not have a direct relation with the current frame rate, but is bounded by the frame rate. You don't want your integration time to be larger than desired frame rate and hence, lowering the frame rate.

Assuming the integration time has not saturated the signal enough for the clipping to happen, the noise smoothing gets significantly better with larger integration times. For lower frame rates, hence, this naturally helps. For night-time shots, shadow details, larger integration time helps; for high-lights it is not very helpful as it would clip them.

In addition, another very important factor is the temporal filtering. In a still camera image there are no motion issues to consider. However, for a video camera it is not easy to determine that which portion of a moving image is actually temporal noise, and which is valid motion. There is always some compromise. If temporal filtering is done in camera, then the real-time delivery limits it to simple filters. If the co-efficients of the temporal filter are not properly adjusted, or they were calculated at different internal gain, and are not adaptive, if the internal gain before ADC changes, etc., then you would see noise on the images from a video camera.

[Evin Grant]

Nikon, along with Canon, have had years of practice on this stuff... give us a couple of months to catch up. :-)

Jim

Don't worry jim, that wasn't a dig at the Mysterium. Neither Nikon nor Canon have a sensor that can do 24FPS so it's of little consequence if they have more aggressive noise control. Also we have no idea how that noise, however pleasing in a still frame would look when passing by at 24 FPS. I think we all have faith that the Mysterium will reach it's full potential.

[Sanjin Jukic]

If Build 15 and the next builds give us a quality close to the photos below

that were shot on Nikon D3 I would be really, really satisfied>>>

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/photo-gallery/nikon-d3-photo-4.jpg
A narrow street in Florence at night.
Digital Photography by Dennis Hissink
Nikon D3 Test Photo
Resolution : 4256 x 2832
Aperture : f/6,3
Exposure time : 1/50 sec
ISO : 6400
Focal length : 24mm
Metering : Aperture Priority
Compensation : 0 step

Download RAW NEF file>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-nef/NIKON-D3-PHOTO-4.NEF)

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/photo-gallery/nikon-d3-photo-5.jpg
Ponto Vecchio at night, Florence.
Digital Photography by Dennis Hissink
Nikon D3 Test Photo
Resolution : 4256 x 2832
Aperture : f/4,5
Exposure time : 1/10 sec
ISO : 6400
Focal length : 18mm
Metering : Aperture Priority
Compensation : 0 step

Download RAW NEF file>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-nef/NIKON-D3-PHOTO-5.NEF)

Also find more and download original NEF RAW files at

LINK>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-photo-gallery.html)

[Graeme Nattress]

A new sensor is an interesting question, I just bought a Nikon D3 and I'm a little flabbergasted by it's noise control.

As far as I can see from images on the web, most of the D3's "low noise" is heavy chroma noise reduction in RAW.

Graeme

[Dj Joofa]

If Build 15 and the next builds give us a quality close to the photos below


Exposure time : 1/10 sec


Please see my comment regarding longer integration times (exposure time) above.

[Greg Syverson]

That D3 really rocks. I need the Nikon D3 pluse the RED CAM. So many nice things to work with.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/2261_1203207712.jpg

[Evin Grant]

As far as I can see from images on the web, most of the D3's "low noise" is heavy chroma noise reduction in RAW.

Graeme

Some interesting things I've noticed playing with the D3 files...
•Noise seems to live more in the Red channel Vs. Blue in the D2x.
•There is some on chip pre RAW NR (Possibly chroma) going on but it preserves detail very well.
•The noise "Character" is more grain-like than any previous DSLR I've seen
•Shadow detial and shadow noise is more controlled than any previous DSLR

Graeme, if you like I can shoot some test frames for you to play with.
Let me know.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Please see my comment regarding longer integration times (exposure time) above.

Also it's very interesting to read what Joofa and Graeme wrote above and compare it with Nikon's D3 RAW files that are available via links at my post (also above).

[Alexander Nikishin]

Just give me 11.3 stops of latitude, multiple outputs, and 100fps in 2k windowed.

I will be happy for life.

Jim.....

Speaking of 100fps over-cranked, is that still a possibility or are we limited to 75?

[Dj Joofa]

Sanjin,

It is not easy for a video camera to produce high-quality high-fidelity images for night-time shots or scenes with low-illumination without comprising either (1) frame rate, or (2) exposure time. For daylight shots the relation of exposure time to frame rate does not enter into picture as the exposure time is a small fraction of the frame rate. However, for night-time shots, the situations starts becoming deteriorating and there reaches a point for many a cameras that they have to pick either between dropping frame rate or dropping exposure time -- dropping exposure time results in higher visibility of temporal noise.

[Dj Joofa]

Just give me 11.3 stops of latitude, multiple outputs, and 100fps in 2k windowed.

I will be happy for life.

Jim.....

Speaking of 100fps over-cranked, is that still a possibility or are we limited to 75?

Sustaining a 100 fps at daylight is much easier than at doing it at night-time. It will be a significant challenge to come up with 100 fps while keeping a high dynamic range for the type of night-time shots that Sanjin posted.

[Patrick Tresch]

dropping exposure time results in higher visibility of temporal noise.

What Sanjin is showing us are pictures shot @ 6500 asa. IMHO I don't think it changes anything if it's 1 second aperture time or 1/1000th. The preset of the CMO is set to 6500asa and therefore apertrure time and T stop are calculated en relation with this setting and therefore the resulting picture will have a noise of 6500 asa.

Interestingly, noise in redcode raw is not evenly spread out in a picture where you have low lights, mid and highlights.

Patrick

[Dj Joofa]

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/photo-gallery/nikon-d3-photo-5.jpg
Ponto Vecchio at night, Florence.
Digital Photography by Dennis Hissink
Nikon D3 Test Photo
Resolution : 4256 x 2832
Aperture : f/4,5
Exposure time : 1/10 sec
ISO : 6400
Focal length : 18mm
Metering : Aperture Priority
Compensation : 0 step

Download RAW NEF file>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-nef/NIKON-D3-PHOTO-5.NEF)

Also find more and download original NEF RAW files at

LINK>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-photo-gallery.html)

This is a wonderful image. Please note that the exposure time is 1/10 sec. hence, assuming a very standard shutter angle of 180 degrees that would mean 5 frames per second. Hence, it will be difficult to go over 5 frames per second to get such an image assuming the noise characteristics on the sensor, and other parameters stay constant.

[Dj Joofa]

What Sanjin is showing us are pictures shot @ 6500 asa. IMHO I don't think it changes anything if it's 1 second aperture time or 1/1000th. The preset of the CMO is set to 6500asa and therefore apertrure time and T stop are calculated en relation with this setting and therefore the resulting picture will have a noise of 6500 asa.

Interestingly, noise in redcode raw is not evenly spread out in a picture where you have low lights, mid and highlights.

Patrick

Unlike a film camera where some characteristics are determined by the ASA of the film, a digital camera does not have the ability to swap out the sensor and replace it with one with higher/lower equivalent ASA. The parameters available to a digital camera are integration time (exposure time), the size of the aperture, the characteristics of sensor noise, and the bit resolution of the ADC determined by its bit depth. Hence, all ASA equivalents of a digital cameras are worked out using these basic set of parameters.

Noise characteristics and ADC bit depth can't be changed on the digital camera. Hence, the other two free variables left are exposure time and the size of the shutter. The ADC is agnostic to discriminate between the two. It only cares about what would be the Exposure Value (EV), which is a relation of the exposure time and the shutter size.

For the same exposure value, one can have different shutter sizes and exposure times. However, as I said the ADC does not even know that, it is too much at the back of the chain. Hence, the exposure value derives the ADC output, and assuming clipping is not happening, a higher exposure value can result in better noise immunity, whether you get it by increasing the size of the aperture, or increasing the exposure time.

[Deanan]

This is a wonderful image. Please note that the exposure time is 1/10 sec. hence, assuming a very standard shutter angle of 180 degrees that would mean 5 frames per second. Hence, it will be difficult to go over 5 frames per second to get such an image assuming the noise characteristics on the sensor, and other parameters stay constant.

Its 2+stop overexposed compared to 180 deg @ 24fps so its more directly comparable to ~1300 iso.

[Dj Joofa]

Its 2+stop overexposed compared to 180 deg @ 24fps so its more directly comparable to ~1300 iso.

Deanan, kindly see my remark about iso equivalent on a digital camera above. Thanks.

[Deanan]

yeah, i quoted you because we are saying the same thing but in different terms.

[Jannard]

Keep in mind that the full frame DSLR's (D3 for example) have the same pixel count (12MP) in a sensor that is much larger (about 3x the area). Which means the pixels are much larger. Which means better low light capability and less noise. And much harder to do high frame rates...

Jim

[Dj Joofa]

yeah, i quoted you because we are saying the same thing but in different terms.

Okay, then we are in agreement. I am sorry I did not get you the first time.

[Patrick Tresch]

Noise characteristics and ADC bit depth can't be changed on the digital camera.

Your right... but presetting your camera to 6500asa "tells your camera" in wich portion of the sensitivity of your censor you want to grab informations. This is in the low light zone where usually you'll see a lot of noise and where usually, when preset to 200 asa, you should only get deep blacks.

So changing asa, even if it's only a relique of the ancient times where different film speed were used, does in the raw world actually affect the calculation of T stops/exposure times and, at the end ,the overall look of the picture.

Pat:sarcasm:

[Brent J. Craig]

yeah, i quoted you because we are saying the same thing but in different terms.

Deanan, please continue translating Joofa for us. Ever since they named that unit of measurement after him it's like he's been speaking Greek or something! :-)

[Dj Joofa]

Keep in mind that the full frame DSLR's (D3 for example) have the same pixel count (12MP) in a sensor that is much larger (about 3x the area). Which means the pixels are larger. Which means better low light capability and less noise. And much harder to do high frame rates...

Jim

True. You are right.

And this was our basic premise that as frame rate increases we start seeing noise problems in low-light and night-time shots, which, fortunately for a still image camera, they don't have to concern themselves with.

[Dj Joofa]

Your right... but presetting your camera to 6500asa "tells your camera" in wich portion of the sensitivity of your censor you want to grab informations. This is in the low light zone where usually you'll see a lot of noise and where usually, when preset to 200 asa, you should only get deep blacks.

So changing asa, even if it's only a relique of the ancient times where different film speed were used, does in the raw world actually affect the calculation of T stops/exposure times and, at the end ,the overall look of the picture.

Pat:sarcasm:

You are right. I agree. As CrewPix said, I am having trouble saying the same things ;-)))))

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Jim you certainly know how to play with our emotions.
Jon Corcuera

The joy is greater that way.

If we get all the cookies at once, that's just one happy day.

But the modularity and upgradability of RED gives us an endless horizon of incoming cookies.

---------

EVF+LCD+Preview -> that's huge.

11 stops of latitude -> Yay! (+ a little more).

Nikon mount ready -> I'll take it.

RED Drive -> 2+ hours of 4K -> Endless extasy.

Progressively decreasing noise -> Yummy and Yummier.

(Windows QT codec + AVI Export from REDCine) -> I'm coming baby!

...

And that's about enough.

"I don't want anything more." William Parish.


P.S. Who needs Panavision. :bleh:

[I Bloom]

Don't worry jim, that wasn't a dig at the Mysterium. Neither Nikon nor Canon have a sensor that can do 24FPS so it's of little consequence if they have more aggressive noise control. Also we have no idea how that noise, however pleasing in a still frame would look when passing by at 24 FPS. I think we all have faith that the Mysterium will reach it's full potential.

Evin,
Do a little test for me.
Take that 6400 D3 image into photoshop. Switch the color mode into Lab color. Do normal levels modification on each channel and show us the L channel and the the a+b channels. I think that will reveal much about what Nikon has been up to, and where Red should not follow.:shiftyph34r:

IBloom

[Deanan]

The PL mount diagonal 30/31mm design constraint is significant. You can't cheat by making bigger pixels and bigger sensors and still be compatible with all the great lenses out there.

[mezmo]

If Build 15 and the next builds give us a quality close to the photos below

that were shot on Nikon D3 I would be really, really satisfied>>>

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/photo-gallery/nikon-d3-photo-4.jpg
A narrow street in Florence at night.
Digital Photography by Dennis Hissink
Nikon D3 Test Photo
Resolution : 4256 x 2832
Aperture : f/6,3
Exposure time : 1/50 sec
ISO : 6400
Focal length : 24mm
Metering : Aperture Priority
Compensation : 0 step

Download RAW NEF file>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-nef/NIKON-D3-PHOTO-4.NEF)

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/photo-gallery/nikon-d3-photo-5.jpg
Ponto Vecchio at night, Florence.
Digital Photography by Dennis Hissink
Nikon D3 Test Photo
Resolution : 4256 x 2832
Aperture : f/4,5
Exposure time : 1/10 sec
ISO : 6400
Focal length : 18mm
Metering : Aperture Priority
Compensation : 0 step

Download RAW NEF file>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-nef/NIKON-D3-PHOTO-5.NEF)

Also find more and download original NEF RAW files at

LINK>>> (http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/review/nikon/d3/nikon-d3-photo-gallery.html)


Hi Sanjin,
These frames are a great examples for NOT going Digital
at night.
In the first frame the ambient light is still daylight.
About 7-8K Kelvin and the street lights are strange, look Photoshopped
with strange flares and starbursts.
The real colortemp of these lamps could be the same as the blueish lens
flare bottom right of frame and the reflection in the truck window.
This is a tricked up example of a night shot to help the D3 sales department IMHO.
The Ponto Vecchio shot is also a little dissapointing showing lack of Dynamic Range
as the camera has let go of most detail in the burned out windows along the
waterfront.
Mezmo

[Warren Kommers]

And this was our basic premise that as frame rate increases we start seeing noise problems in low-light and night-time shots, which, fortunately for a still image camera, they don't have to concern themselves with.

I feel like these comparisons between RED and DSLR are being drawn with the understanding that the exposures being the same. The frame rate, shutter speed, iris, etc. We all know that SLR's can do exposures times that RED can't and that RED can do more frames a second. However with all that in mind I think most of us are saying that there are many great digital sensors that have shown low noise at high asa's with all things equal. I was surprised with the low sensitivity of RED. Perhaps there is more to the processing than the hardware than we expected. At least that is what it is starting to sound like.

Drop 15 on us Jim!

[Dj Joofa]

Hi Sanjin,
These frames are a great examples for NOT going Digital
at night.
..

The Ponto Vecchio shot is also dissapointing showing lack of Dynamic Range
as the camera has let go of all detail in the burned out windows along the
waterfront.
Mezmo

Interesting observations.

If that image was not acquired digitally, as you suggest that is not a wise step at night time, would you think that a DPX film scanner would have recovered all that detail if that image was acquired on a film negative?

We debated this issue to death on a different thread entitled "Are digital sensors there yet?", where I was of the view that if we use non-linear CMOS sensors then we might have a better response in night-time images such as these. Graeme Nattress opposed me, and his concerns were valid at many places, such as additional noise added to CMOS transistor circuits before ADC. However, I have a feeling that is a route that needs to be explored for recovering detail in images such as the ones Sanjin has posted. Daytime shots are too easy for any high profile digital camera, such as Red, but one of the challenging test cases are scenarios as presented in Sanjin's pictures.

[Dj Joofa]

I feel like these comparisons between RED and DSLR are being drawn with the understanding that the exposures being the same.

Drop 15 on us Jim!

Actually the situation is as follows: Suppose you have a night time shot, and you are already at a very big aperture size, but the image acquired still looks underexposed with those horrible artifacts of temporal noise. You are then forced to increase the only other free variable left, viz., the integration time (exposure time). But there is a limit to it if you want to sustain your frame rate -- heck, you are making a movie, it better be rock solid 24 fps. So sooner or later, a point reaches, where you have to either (1) drop frame rate, or (2) drop exposure time with increased perception of temporal noise.

[Warren Kommers]

Actually the situation is as following: Suppose you have a night time shot, and you are already at a very big aperture size, but the image acquired still looks underexposed with that horrible artifacts of temporal noise. You are then forced to increase the only other free variable left, viz., the integration time (exposure time). But there is a limit to it if you want to sustain your frame rate -- heck, you are making a movie, it better be rock solid 24 fps. So sooner or later, a point reaches, where you have to either (1) drop frame rate, or (2) drop exposure time with increased perception of temporal noise.

Yup. That's how exposure works. I'm not sure what your point is I guess. Most of us know that the higher your frame rate the less exposure time. There is also officially less light at night.

Provided the DSLR and motion picture camera(growing closer every day) have the same exposure time independent of frame rate(1/48), aperture, and asa. How do they compare? Isn't that what we are talking about? So we can compare processing and sensor characteristics. Isolating the variables. Perhaps add sensor size and mega pixel count to that list of things to isolate as Jim mentioned.

[Dj Joofa]

Yup. That's how exposure works. I'm not sure what your point is I guess. Most of us know that the higher your frame rate the less exposure time. There is also officially less light at night.

Provided the DSLR and motion picture camera(growing closer every day) have the same exposure time independent of frame rate(1/48), aperture, and asa. How do they compare? Isn't that what we are talking about? So we can compare processing and sensor characteristics.

Nope, exposure time on a digital sensor has no direct relationship with frame rate. As I said just a while ago it is only bounded by the frame rate. Typically the frame rate will be fixed, say the normal 24 fps, because you do not want to change that unless you are going for special effects, which we are not talking about. Now 24 fps is fixed. Hence, it provides us an upper bound on exposure time. Now during daytime the exposure time could be quite small but still be within that constraint of 24 fps. However, to sustain 24 fps at night time, after exhausting the useful range of the aperture size, you are forced to increase your integration time, and it has a limit enforced by 24 fps.

[Dj Joofa]

I'm not sure what your point is I guess. .

BTW, isn't that what my reputation is coming to on this forum that what is the point I am harping about. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad.

I think I need to take a sabbatical.

[Evin Grant]

Evin,
Do a little test for me.
Take that 6400 D3 image into photoshop. Switch the color mode into Lab color. Do normal levels modification on each channel and show us the L channel and the the a+b channels. I think that will reveal much about what Nikon has been up to, and where Red should not follow.:shiftyph34r:

IBloom

By normal levels do you mean "auto" levels? Or something else?

[Evin Grant]

Keep in mind that the full frame DSLR's (D3 for example) have the same pixel count (12MP) in a sensor that is much larger (about 3x the area). Which means the pixels are much larger. Which means better low light capability and less noise. And much harder to do high frame rates...

Jim

This is a very important point and one I should have remembered to make.

[Warren Kommers]

Nope, exposure time on a digital sensor has no direct relationship with frame rate.

I think we are running in circles here. I of course understand this but a 1/48 is a 1/48th for comparing sensitivity and processing of the image. At 24fps you won't be able to do better than 1/24.

[Dj Joofa]

I think we are running in circles here. I of course understand this but a 1/48 is a 1/48th for comparing sensitivity and processing of the image. At 24fps you won't be able to do better than 1/24.

That is an automated message. I am on sabbatical. Please contact xxxx for your inquiries meanwhile.

[Bing Bailey]

we need to sensors , one rated for daylight and one for night on a little carousel so they can move into position at the click of a button :)

[Dj Joofa]

I think we are running in circles here. I of course understand this but a 1/48 is a 1/48th for comparing sensitivity and processing of the image. At 24fps you won't be able to do better than 1/24.

Okay I am back from my sabbatical. The point is that if you opt to not drop frame rate for difficult night time shots, and increase exposure time and aperture size to a maximum, then on a film camera you only see an underexposed image. On a digital camera in addition to an underexposed image you see those horrible artifacts of temporal noise. One can still live with the corresponding film image, by the famous trick of DPs that they stick a bright light source in a distant corner of the film to psychologically lure audience into believing that the image was deliberately underexposed for artistic reasons -- the DP can get away with this because on film (whose noise characteristics are inverse of digital; more noise in highlights; less in dark) the image though underexposed was surprisingly clean of noise. Where as the digital image because of temporal noise has been rendered useless. Unless you really drop frame rate on a digital camera to a low number the temporal noise will be sucking the pixel-blood out of the image.

Therefore, to develop a digital camera that has even reasonable frame rate in difficult night shots is a challenging task.

[Warren Kommers]

Okay I am back from my sabbatical. The point is that if you opt to not drop frame rate for difficult night time shots, and increase exposure time and aperture size to a maximum, then on a film camera you only see an underexposed image. On a digital camera in addition to an underexposed image you see those horrible artifacts of temporal noise. One can still live with the corresponding film image, by the famous trick of DPs that they stick a bright light source in a distant corner of the film to psychologically lure audience into believing that the image was deliberately underexposed for artistic reasons -- the DP can get away with this because on film (whose noise characteristics are inverse of digital; more noise in highlights; less in dark) the image though underexposed was surprisingly clean of noise. Where as the digital image because of temporal noise has been rendered useless. Unless you really drop frame rate on a digital camera to a low number the temporal noise will be sucking the pixel-blood out of the image.

Therefore, to develop a digital camera that has even reasonable frame rate in difficult night shots is a challenging task.

The last thing I think about, as a DP/director who has shot my fair share of 35mm and digital, is...."I'll put a light in the corner of the frame so that the audience will think I'm artistic and that I haven't underexposed this shot".
If they are thinking about that at anytime then I have failed in my opinion. They should be in the world of the story.

Although one is a positive image and one is a negative that renders different characteristics and techniques I can tell you that I worry about noise in the shadows on both far more than noise in the highlights. It's far more troublesome.

[Dj Joofa]

The last thing I think about, as a DP/director who has shot my fair share of 35mm and digital, is...."I'll put a light in the corner of the frame so that the audience will think I'm artistic and that I haven't underexposed this shot".
If they are thinking about that at anytime then I have failed in my opinion. They should be in the world of the story.



Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

[Warren Kommers]

Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

Dude......I know what you are describing. Trust me. You don't notice the noise as much when there is a bright thing in the frame because your eye is drawn to it. Contrast help sells the impression of less noise. Know it well and many other's before you. It's a good thing to know about how we draw our conclusions conscious/subconscious of an image.

What's happening? My head hurts. Sorry if we've derailed the thread. Time to go drink and let it out on Rock Band.

[Dj Joofa]

Dude......I know what you are describing. Trust me.

...

What's happening? My head hurts. Sorry if we've derailed the thread. Time to go drink and let it out on Rock Band.

Good to know that we are in agreement. Thanks for your input. I really appreciate that. Have a nice time at the Rock Band.

[Brook Willard]

D3 ISO 6400
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/D36400.jpg

Guess somebody got his D3...

[Darren Orange]

This may be a mute question but has anyone done any testing with shooting Day for Night with RED? I would think that you could get some pretty nice outcomes and "MAYBE" save alot of money on lighting a night scene. I know there are alot of details that go into that but saying generally, like lights, the sky, etc, if the sky is clear or mostly clear it should be ALMOST easy to key out. Thoughts?

[Poi Boy]

I've never liked the look of day for night but it would be interesting to see some tests.
-A

[Thor Wixom]

The PL mount diagonal 30/31mm design constraint is significant. You can't cheat by making bigger pixels and bigger sensors and still be compatible with all the great lenses out there.

Deanan,

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question... is it possible to "train" four pixel sensors to act like one, effectively making a bigger virtual pixel? The theoretical result would be 2k, but at a higher ASA.

In answer to my own question, there may be a physical limit because of the bayer pattern, and how it has to cross-matrix it's color information, rendering it impossible to make a virtual pixel out of four pixel sensors.

Just a thought. :matrix:

-Thor

[Antoine Baumann]

Personally I'm keeping my expectations tempered...
1 Stop DR improvement (most likely in the shadows).
Corresponding 2/3 stop better shadow noise.
Purple Sun fix

If build 15 can to this I'll be very happy, if it can do better I'll be ecstatic.
Although just having simultaneous outputs will be HUGE!

I am also quite tempered...
IMHO the sensor is a bit noisy, but it deals way better with under exposed image than over exposed.
- I really would like to see 1 stop improvement but in the highlights.
- Purple sun fix
- All simultaneous output
- One to one pixel zooming
- Import LUT
- Way to display the raw image in the outputs, not only a rec709
- Possibility to change the function of the user button on the camera
- 100fps @ 2K
- ......

Ah and REDCINE out of beta.

ciao,
antoine

[Poi Boy]

4K @ 60fps
Aloha
-A

[Lauri Kettunen]

BTW, isn't that what my reputation is coming to on this forum that what is the point I am harping about. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad.

Joofa, Would like to encourage you. Your posts are easy and a pleasure to read as they reveal rational thinking. It's just that not all people are used to articulate systematically how different things are related to each other. Obviously, it frustrating when one tries to nail down the key issue but the main point is missed. But, everybody learns and gains from such comments. So, keep going.

[Dj Joofa]

Joofa, Would like to encourage you. Your posts are easy and a pleasure to read as they reveal rational thinking. It's just that not all people are used to articulate systematically how different things are related to each other. Obviously, it frustrating when one tries to nail down the key issue but the main point is missed. But, everybody learns and gains from such comments. So, keep going.

Thank you very much Lauri. It is so encouraging to hear such kind words from a prospective Red owner. Thanks for your generosity.

[Sanjin Jukic]

After reading all the tread in the morning I could conclude

(of course it's my point of view)

that the most valuable opinions were from

Jim, Joofa, Graeme and Deanan.

So for Nikon's D3 way to go for low light is :bye2: with RED.

For sure RED Team is going to find its own way to "capture"

more low light with RED in the future firmware updates.

But maybe one great achievement to that is already done with Build 15.

[mezmo]

Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

Hi Joofa,
It's also a great way to hide the grain in Super 16 cinematography.
I would add even putting a putting a slash or pool of hot light behind
considerably underexposed actors works a treat.
Mezmo

[Graeme Nattress]

Some interesting things I've noticed playing with the D3 files...
•Noise seems to live more in the Red channel Vs. Blue in the D2x.
•There is some on chip pre RAW NR (Possibly chroma) going on but it preserves detail very well.
•The noise "Character" is more grain-like than any previous DSLR I've seen
•Shadow detial and shadow noise is more controlled than any previous DSLR

Graeme, if you like I can shoot some test frames for you to play with.
Let me know.

Evin - would love a Stouffer shot if you can! (at various ISOs)

Graeme

[Michael Stanmore]

This is a very important point and one I should have remembered to make.

Ah, so that's why SI's 4K camera is a 65mm camera rather than a 35mm camera.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Ah, so that's why SI's 4K camera is a 65mm camera rather than a 35mm camera.

SI?

Maybe you mean Phantom65?

[Andrew M.]

It has already given a fright to big brothers like panavision and sony, what will happen to them after BUILD 15.

EMERGENCY SERVICES ON STANDBY, PLEASE......:sarcasm:

Actually they are in more trouble that it looks like.

What is natural evolution for RED, that started from zero, just couple of years ago, it is complete rethinking for “them”. They are coming from Video, SD, HD and TV broadcast word.
RED in turn is more building on the best of both, RAW DSLR camera and broadcast technology, with the RED post taking the best of both DI and digital photography.

In digital photography you shot RAW and jpg as a proxy, and then in the post you have choice of many good programs, mostly created specifically for digital photography and some for HQ prints or news media.

RED is shooting RAW and QT as proxy, then we have not so many good programs for post as in digital photography but plenty enough, coming mostly from DI post side.

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.

The corporate culture there will not be able to absorb these changes and the only way to compete is through acquisition or letting a new blood to the corporate structure and creating new divisions that will compete with the rest of the company.
Later one though as history shows, frequently fails

[Maz Mawlawi]

multiple output is great!!!!!...do I hear 1080P output/preview??? :-)

[laguun]

Actually they are in more trouble that it looks like.

What is natural evolution for RED, that started from zero, just couple of years ago, it is complete rethinking for “them”. They are coming from Video, SD, HD and TV broadcast word.
RED in turn is more building on the best of both, RAW DSLR camera and broadcast technology, with the RED post taking the best of both DI and digital photography.

In digital photography you shot RAW and jpg as a proxy, and then in the post you have choice of many good programs, mostly created specifically for digital photography and some for HQ prints or news media.

RED is shooting RAW and QT as proxy, then we have not so many good programs for post as in digital photography but plenty enough, coming mostly from DI post side.

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.

The corporate culture there will not be able to absorb these changes and the only way to compete is through acquisition or letting a new blood to the corporate structure and creating new divisions that will compete with the rest of the company.
Later one though as history shows, frequently fails

sony or panasonic are not really hurt by red. the 10.000s of hvx or z1 cams aren´t affected and houndreds of hdcams or p2 as well. also, the raw workflow which has many advantages will not be accepted for most of the work of those who buy most $$.$$$-$$$.$$$ cameras. Television. Right now, Ophrah, the superbowl or the distant ENG team can´t use red as replacement, as it is much to slow. simply different markets, and television prefers workflow over quality almost any time.

The small companies, as arri, aaton and panavision, who manufacture and rent 35mm cameras are the ones who are mainly affected.

and the game is just beginning.
In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video. Casios new exilim already does 1080p uncompressed via HDMI, and they record up to 1200 fps.

red speeded that development up by years, but will finally have to competete with the japanese behemoths, once the markets really overlap.

I hope that arri now finally wakes up. Since almost one decade i am asking them every single trade show to built something like red, and once more a german local champion gave the market leadership away without a fight. With the new ceo it seems the direction will be adjusted in the camera division. I however doubt that they get the pricing right.

And one thing is for sure - with more than 3.000 red cameras in the market, the rental market will be totally over saturated by late 2008.

p.s. edited for spelling

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agree Laguun.

Thanks.

You gave us here some very good points.

[Andrew M.]

“The small companies, as arri, aaton and panavision, who manufacture and rent 35mm cameras are the ones who are mainly affected.”

This is in short term, if we are talking long term the broadcast industry just in US is using more equipment/cameras then the whole world cinema together.

“In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video”

I have seen this argument 5 years ago with DLSR, “in few years cell phones will have 5MP cameras build in” and what? They do, yet we are buying D3 or 1Ds Mk3 for $$$$.00
As much as broadcast likes workflow, they will have to change it fast. (fast = 5 years)
Most material from the field will be coming on RAW formats. 3X RGB sensor will be gone for good from broadcast cameras and if you want it or not the S35 or full frame format will move in. There is not enough surface on 2/3 for all this good quality HD resolution anymore.
Also lenses can take only this much of MTF on such small surface before screwing all up.
Hey! CNN moved in with HD now, I thought it will never happen! I took them 10 years or so. And remember progress of technology is exponential. I took 10 years for most programs to move to HD (HD at 10-15Mbits/sec stream and 2/3 sensors) but the next upgrade (100Mbits/sec stream and S35) will be faster than anybody expects.

I am still waiting for ET to switch to HD, I am surprised that they didn’t do it first.
I guess dirt digging is not worth much, like tabloids, are mostly printed on the recycled toilet paper.

[Dj Joofa]

Hi Joofa,
It's also a great way to hide the grain in Super 16 cinematography.
I would add even putting a putting a slash or pool of hot light behind
considerably underexposed actors works a treat.
Mezmo

Mezmo,

Thanks for your input. I agree with putting the pool of light idea. I am glad that people are using these little tricks.

[Dj Joofa]

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.



This is a significant point. It happens many times that a small company with dedicated team like Red's is able to take on giants because the giants are too busy in the "maintenance" mode. Red is a small company with no obligation right now (heck, even RMA's might not have started happening), hence, they can move very swiftly. The bigger boys have connections for arm twisting many times under certain channels, especially if resellers are involved. It goes to Red's advantage that they are selling directly, and hence, can relieve that pressure.

[laguun]

This is in short term, if we are talking long term the broadcast industry just in US is using more equipment/cameras then the whole world cinema together.

exactly my point.
to become an mayor player for broadcast, red would need to add:
- a worldwide service, sales and support network. with spares, with employees speaking the language etc.
- manuals in all these languages
- all the necessary national quality assurances (ce for europe)
- have an delivery format (as tape or disk) which plays back in realtime of faster in existing broadcast infrastructures.
just to name a few. all that would costs lots of money, lots of time, takes away the focus of red on one product and reduces the price advantage a lean and mean operation has against a 500 pound gorilla. I don´t say its impossible, and i would never underestimate mr. jannards vision as entrepreneur... but this certainly would be a quite different red than the company we know.



“In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video”
I have seen this argument 5 years ago with DLSR, “in few years cell phones will have 5MP cameras build in” and what? They do, yet we are buying D3 or 1Ds Mk3 for $$$$.00

The difference is - mobile phones aim at different things (compact, cheap, light, long run time, fancy design) than DSLRS (quality, studio ergonomics).

reds and nikons cameras aim at the same, difference is the framerate. so the overlaping of these markets are no convergence (as in mobile/dslr) but competition (as in moving images high end digital cameras/still images high end cameras).



Most material from the field will be coming on RAW formats.

Certainly not.
All delivery systems use RGB, YUV or XYZ, none raw.
Raw is well suited for high end production, but not for broadcasts and transmission.



3X RGB sensor will be gone for good from broadcast cameras and if you want it or not the S35 or full frame format will move in.

No. Higher DOF isn´t wanted for most EFP/ENG productions. You don´t want to focus the nightshot of the politican rushing out of his car alone on 35mm with a 400mm zoom on your own in the wind.



There is not enough surface on 2/3 for all this good quality HD resolution anymore.

Last time i checked our HD zooms from angenieux delivered stunning good images. And the 8K fujinon on the UHDTV NHK demonstration i had the joy of seeing in 2006 looked pretty cool (ok, it had some CA :))



Also lenses can take only this much of MTF on such small surface before screwing all up.

correct, but broadcast in US and EU will stay at 1080 for quite some time, and thats easy on 2/3.



I took 10 years for most programs to move to HD (HD at 10-15Mbits/sec stream and 2/3 sensors) but the next upgrade (100Mbits/sec stream and S35) will be faster than anybody expects.

I don´t think you will see ENG in S35 getting popular anytime soon.
In fact, the newer systems all use 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 and have market shares of >99%.

S35 if for drama, commercials, series - but rarely the right choice for a typical broadcast one-man team.

[Obin Olson]

FYI Jim, I would be happy as hell if you just fixed the few remain bugs and gave us outputs on all ports and a raw preview not rec709...but this is just me....really this camera is amazing...

btw you may want to look at your red drive cables..mine failed on day 2...not a big deal but they should take a beating imho...

[Jannard]

FYI Jim, I would be happy as hell if you just fixed the few remain bugs and gave us outputs on all ports and a raw preview not rec709...but this is just me....really this camera is amazing...

btw you may want to look at your red drive cables..mine failed on day 2...not a big deal but they should take a beating imho...

Define RAW output...

Jim

[Warren Kommers]

Define RAW output...

Jim

Just without the REC 709 gamma in preview. It's waaaay more contrast than I will time in post and makes it difficult to light from. What am I seeing in the shadows? The viper has a raw mode to toggle to. The picture usually looks like shit(flat,noisey) but I can see where my shadow detail ends without taking it to REDCINE.

The preview is really only good for framing right now. Which is fine you just have to base your lighting off of experience with the camera rather than being able to see it real time on set. Like film. However film is generous with it's dynamic range and gives us a margin of error. With digital as it is now you've really got to balance things very carefully with lighting and exposure.

Some people have also suggested to be able to load your own LUT into preview which would also be great. I'm not sure if that is posssible but it gives everyone(production designer, makeup, wardrobe) an idea of what there work might be seen as in the finished product.

[Scott Webster]

FWIW we have had a lot of interest in the 'Look' ability of the camera. That is the ability to create 'Look presets' in RedCine and load the camera with the preset for on set monitoring.

Love to see that feature in Build 15...

[Jannard]

FWIW we have had a lot of interest in the 'Look' ability of the camera. That is the ability to create 'Look presets' in RedCine and load the camera with the preset for on set monitoring.

Love to see that feature in Build 15...

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

[Warren Kommers]

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

Bad ass! I guess that also takes a REDCINE version that can export that information.

I'm really excited about these new builds Jim. Plus my own camera finally!!!! I'm going to shoot the shit out of it.

[ChrisLyon]

Mmm. Tasty.

I was just talking to a friend of mine about live color presets in the field. Cloverfield had a system but it wasn't in-camera... it was through a MacBook Pro and some software out to a monitor on set. It sounded pretty cool but if Red can do that in-cam....

[Sanjin Jukic]

If i remember well REDCINE was introduced sometimes in Fall 2007.

Driven by the industry logic thaat means sometime in Fall 2008 you

COULD get about 95% to 99% features enabled.

100% only in the case if we are all so lucky group of camera techies.

So take it easy.

Nor rush.

Also would be good not to get in any sort of wrong expectation all the time.

To have understanding of development time is almost a crucial.

[Evin Grant]

Evin - would love a Stouffer shot if you can! (at various ISOs)

Graeme

I have a Cam-Align and a MacBeth, can a reliable Stouffer be made from an inkjet printer?

[Graeme Nattress]

Nope, got to buy one. It's a backlit chart - only way to get more than about 5 stops DR on a chart.

Graeme

[conrad gaunt]

My guess is there's going to be some intelligent noise reduction built in either on camera or in REDCINE... perhaps both. Maybe it'll target the blue channel... or copy info from parts of another channel to increase blue channel density.

These guys are starting to squeeze the sensor for what it's worth. The next question is when does the next sensor come out?

Im with you on that. I really hope the blue channel does improve. The higher quality record modes should aim in that direction in my opinion.

[zak forrest]

the LOOK feature is what the SD card is for right? What else could the SD be used for besides that and software upgrades? I haven't used it at all yet.

[Curran Giddens]

the LOOK feature is what the SD card is for right? What else could the SD be used for besides that and software upgrades? I haven't used it at all yet.

there was talk about a wireless card for remote control of camera functions.

[Shawn Nelson]

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

Okay, so that is a feature that's been promised for a long time. I thought Build 15 was 'feature complete'. What build now are you aiming for?

Not trying to bust, just seeking clarification, because I have a client who has had three conversations with me about this exact feature. I told him it was in Build 15 since Build 15 was supposed to be feature complete, so now I'd like to know what to tell him.

[Evin Grant]

Nope, got to buy one. It's a backlit chart - only way to get more than about 5 stops DR on a chart.

Graeme

I'd be glad to hop down to you behind the Orange curtain when next you're in town.

[Jannard]

Okay, so that is a feature that's been promised for a long time. I thought Build 15 was 'feature complete'. What build now are you aiming for?

Not trying to bust, just seeking clarification, because I have a client who has had three conversations with me about this exact feature. I told him it was in Build 15 since Build 15 was supposed to be feature complete, so now I'd like to know what to tell him.

Probably in the build after 15. Feature complete? We will never be feature complete...

Jim

[Hrvoje Simic]

You gotta love that type of mentality...

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Oh, that would be really great.

[SF Geek]

Sooo, how about slower shutter speeds for time-laps? 1/12, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Probably in the build after 15. Feature complete? We will never be feature complete...

Jim
I am looking forward to Build 21 ... and Build 15 and everything in-between ...

[donatello b]

"you just have to base your lighting off of experience with the camera rather than being able to see it real time on set"

that's why we get paid the BIG $$$$$$

[Poi Boy]

Experience yes, but really this camera has more light meter information than any camera I have ever used !
Aloha
-A

[SF Geek]

Donatello could you please tell me when the next how to make big $$$ seminar is, I just can't seem to get that part right. I am good at spending big $$$ though. I have a Red camera package to prove it.

[Prem Edpuganti]

Thank you very much Lauri. It is so encouraging to hear such kind words from a prospective Red owner. Thanks for your generosity.

Joofa:

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about.

I read your posts with lot of interest. Sometimes, of necessity, they border on the theoretical, nevertheless they explain the facts. Which I am just as much interested in as practice. Did somebody say knowledge is power.

The sad thing about lot of the valuable postings in the forum is that it appears they are not searchable by subject. At least the search yields no coherent list IMHO. Any way, can you think of compiling all your postings, and whatever else is in your wonderful head, into a nice book. I will be the first one to buy the book. Primarily for me, it will be a nice reference when I have questions.

[I Bloom]

By normal levels do you mean "auto" levels? Or something else?

Oh, auto will probably do it. Just tighten up on the values so we can see them.

The point is that you will see a lot less information in the hue changes of the image.

It's a trick I use alot, switch to lab color and run heavy noise reduction or blur on just the colors. Makes the noise more pleasing because its more monochromatic. (You will then need a corresponding increase overall saturation.)

IBloom

[Dj Joofa]

Joofa:

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about.

I read your posts with lot of interest. Sometimes, of necessity, they border on the theoretical, nevertheless they explain the facts. Which I am just as much interested in as practice. Did somebody say knowledge is power.

The sad thing about lot of the valuable postings in the forum is that it appears they are not searchable by subject. At least the search yields no coherent list IMHO. Any way, can you think of compiling all your postings, and whatever else is in your wonderful head, into a nice book. I will be the first one to buy the book. Primarily for me, it will be a nice reference when I have questions.

Hello Prem,

Thanks for your very kind words -- its easily one of the best compliments I have ever gotten. Firstly, I am grateful to Jim and Jarred Land for providing this wonderful forum for airing my point of view. This forum is really great; there are many people represented here who are gurus of their respective fields -- David Mullen, Finner (The Speedo King), MMost, Laguun, Graeme Nattress and Deanan come to mind quickly, and I follow their posts very closely.

I think the book idea is interesting; I shall have to really take my self-professed sabbatical for that ;-))))

Thanks a lot again.

[Mark Toia]

A great bloke by the name of Mike Seymour from FXPHD.COM took time out of his busy schedule came up to our studios in QLD Australia and let us test out his RED camera.
It was like someone had just invented electricity in front of me.
Here's some of the footage we shot.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/red/zoom_red_test_h264d_small.mov

Minus this only being a very small 13meg.mov file full of compression, the original 4k files are as clean as silk.
So impressed I've just ordered another 3 more RED's and am hanging out now to buy a few Scarlets at NAB next month.
If you reading this Mike, A public thankyou to you and Jimmy, thanks so much for sharing the knowledge. RED boys, thanks for making this thing.

Ill be shooting my next job with RED without hesitation.

[Jannard]

Cool stuff, Big T.

Jim

[sparkhope]

Great footage.

Please post some of your R3D files to redrelay.net

Cheers

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Any way, can you think of compiling all your postings, and whatever else is in your wonderful head, into a nice book.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/search.php?searchid=742518

[Andrew Benz]

That 8mm T-Rex shot was great. The whole thing rocked. Thanks Big T.

[Evin Grant]

Here ya go Ibloom, not sure what to make of it except the Luma channel looks great to me.
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/D3lab.jpg

[Jarred Land]

That T-Rex is sooo bad ass...

[Billy Summers]

That T-Rex is sooo bad ass...

Yeah, normally I wouldn't...but I HAVE to agree!!!

[Emmanuel Cambier]

I'm so glad the Nikon D3 starts to be mentioned around here, cause it's a darn fine piece of equipment, a great answer to Canon.

Emmanuel

[Casey Green]

Build 14 is awesome, thanks for the hard work.

Here are some of the things we are hoping for in build 15 or soon after:

Purple Sun Fix
Sensor Diffraction Fix (?) (pattern seen in the LART sunflare footage)
Noise Improved (Its very good already)
Latitude Improved (Also already very good)
Multiple Simultaneous Outputs
Customizable User Buttons
Option for Shutter in Degrees
Lens Metadata Enabled (and shipping pins)
Higher Framerates :)
LUT Feature Enabled
Loading and Saving of All Camera Settings
Sleep Mode
On-board Clip Management (Thumnails / Delete Clip w/user selectable option to disable this feature)

Just adding even a couple of these would be great!

thanks,

[Mike Seymour]

Your welcome, it was fun. :-)
Actually the other thing we spent time on was workflow - red .r3d >FCP> XML> Red Cine.

It was great fun and Zoom is a great company - very professional, I have admired their work for years.

Mike.



A great bloke by the name of Mike Seymour from FXPHD.COM took time out of his busy schedule came up to our studios in QLD Australia and let us test out his RED camera.
It was like someone had just invented electricity in front of me.
Here's some of the footage we shot.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/red/zoom_red_test_h264d_small.mov

Minus this only being a very small 13meg.mov file full of compression, the original 4k files are as clean as silk.
So impressed I've just ordered another 3 more RED's and am hanging out now to buy a few Scarlets at NAB next month.
If you reading this Mike, A public thankyou to you and Jimmy, thanks so much for sharing the knowledge. RED boys, thanks for making this thing.

Ill be shooting my next job with RED without hesitation.

[Denis Buhot]

We think this will be the most important firmware update so far because it is mostly about image improvement. Try to keep your expectations under control. It will not add 30 stops of dynamic range and eliminate all noise at ISO 4000. But it will significantly improve the image quality from your RED ONE.

Jim[/QUOTE]

Great ! Greater every day, it seems...

And yet, how about the sleep function, or whatever power saving feature I so badly need (along with many others who will take their baby out in the wild, I guess). It looks so simple to achieve, after all what you have achieved. Any major issue or technical impossibility ?

[S. Um]

What ever happened to Magic Focus? Is this something that will be included in build 15?

[Scott Webster]

What ever happened to Magic Focus? Is this something that will be included in build 15?

I'd like to see the current Focus Assist re-designed. Simple coloured peaking outline such as used by JVC or the Panasonic 80 LCD. Punch in on User Button 1, Edge Highlight on User Button 2. Job done.

I assume the Edge Highlight Function (pg32) will give us this ability.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

No Focus Assist technologie will be good enough to substitute a good focus puller or your own focus hands. Focus Assist is recommanded for studio work or objects that will never move.

[Maz Mawlawi]

that's true....but....we are having a real hard time setting the back focus using only 720P preview monitor. You can have the greatest focus puller but if your back focus is not set properly he's useless... that's one of the reason I would like to see 1080P output to monitor enabled soon. How are you guys setting up backfocus using a 720P monitor? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Andrew Benz]

Hi 3xm, I could be wrong but I do not think that 1080p preview was ever in the cards besides a... "We'll see..." from members of the Red Team.

Guys, please correct me if I am wrong.

[sakalli]

spinning imager artifact? ;)

[Maz Mawlawi]

I think at one point they said they would enable dual and single 1080P output via HD-SDI...also why limit the output to monitor 720P? Is there a technical reason for this?

[Andrew Benz]

I think at one point they said they would enable dual and single 1080P output via HD-SDI...also why limit the output to monitor 720P? Is there a technical reason for this?

Yup, this is what I remember last... but nothing more. We may get a big surprise in an upcoming build. It does not hurt to keep asking until we get shot down, 3xm.

[Mark Toia]

spinning imager artifact? ;)

MAAATE!!!...your viewing a tiny 13 meg Quicktime. there's artifacts pouring out of it.
Have a think about things before you comment.

[sakalli]

i think you are misreading any seriousness into that post. but youre right; one does need to think before posting. apologies.

[Brent J. Craig]

MAAATE!!!...your viewing a tiny 13 meg Quicktime. there's artifacts pouring out of it.
Have a think about things before you comment.

I saw the smilie. Anyone else?

In the absence of the verbal and visual cues that would indicate humor or sarcasm in face to face communications, Internet users employ a type of shorthand called emoticons or "Smilies" (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley).

[Joel Kaye]

No Focus Assist technologie will be good enough to substitute a good focus puller or your own focus hands. Focus Assist is recommanded for studio work or objects that will never move.

I think you're confusing "focus assist" (onscreen display to indicate what's in focus) with "autofocus" (camera focusing) since you mention focusing with your own hands.

I've used the JVC focus assist when doing a lot of handheld work where both I and the talent are moving. So yes, I'm pulling focus with my own hands but I'm basing my choice on what the focus assist is telling me. I think it might be easier for me to pull that focus than a focus puller because I know where I'm about to move to and they don't... so they'll always be behind.

And the Sony version is even easier to use in the EX1 as far as I can tell.

[Maz Mawlawi]

I have to agree with Joelnet. Plus you cannot always have a focus puller with you. As far as I know HD cameraman shooting sports event and such are able to focus without a focus puller by either using a high def monitor or somekind of focus assist. Yes I know it's only 1080i and not 2k but still......

[Mark Toia]

spinning imager artifact? ;)

sorry dude.

[Lachlan Ward]

Build 15 is coming along nicely... but we want to spend more time testing before we release it since it is so significant to the RED program.

We hope to release beta versions around March 1st. Solid build around March 10th.

We think this will be the most important firmware update so far because it is mostly about image improvement. Try to keep your expectations under control. It will not add 30 stops of dynamic range and eliminate all noise at ISO 4000. But it will significantly improve the image quality from your RED ONE.

Jim

I'll expect 29 stops then and no noise at 3200 iso. Any less and I've been thoroughly riped off.
Keep up the lack of sleep inducing work red team.

[Stephen Williams]

I'll expect 29 stops then and no noise at 3200 iso. Any less and I've been thoroughly riped off.
Keep up the lack of sleep inducing work red team.

Hi,

29 stops would be a very flat & boring IMO.

Stephen

[Bing Bailey]

the 11.3 stops promised would be nice since everyone around here seems to be saying its really only at about 9 to 10 right now :)

[Patrick Tresch]

its really only at about 9 to 10 right now :)

Not quite...:bye2:

I have to do other tests and waiting until build 15, but uptoday it's closer to 7,5 stops (without noise) than 9 stops. (200 asa / +3stops -4,5 stops)...:blush:

See you.

Pat

[Stephen Williams]

Not quite...:bye2:

I have to do other tests and waiting until build 15, but uptoday it's closer to 7,5 stops (without noise) than 9 stops. (200 asa / +3stops -4,5 stops)...:blush:

See you.

Pat

Hi,

That's why I am holding back my tests too.

Stephen

[laguun]

Not quite...:bye2:

I have to do other tests and waiting until build 15, but uptoday it's closer to 7,5 stops (without noise) than 9 stops. (200 asa / +3stops -4,5 stops)...:blush:

See you.

Pat
hm, bizarre, we got easily 9-10 stops beginning from the first tests - one of the charts in fact is my backdrop on this monitor.

Have you shot on your own camera and compared with another?
especially the first 100 units had before the replacement /massive/ issues.

Also one can screw up in the raw workflow and when using the 709 monitoring.

I am not telling that you are doing something wrong, just trying to understand why you get such different results.

[Gunleik Groven]

Also one can screw up in the raw workflow and when using the 709 monitoring.


Not saying anything about stops here, but this is a very important issue to understand when dealing with Red.

Those 12 bits are a fragile matter, easily thrown out.

Gunleik

[Jannard]

We have said all along the dynamic range testing is a slippery slope. You can make a case many ways depending on how you test. I guess the best measure is what the footage looks like... as David Mullen has suggested many times.

We have posted charts and our methodology. If you use different tests, you can certainly get different results.

Jim

[jbeale]

I certainly agree with Jim's observation. I took some shots to test DNR (firmware #12) which you can see here: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/page2.html#Test_5

I used the Imatest ( http://www.imatest.com/ ) program to measure the output TIFF and I obtained anywhere between 7.5 stops and 11.5 stops from the SAME original raw frame, just by varying the gamma adjustment, and depending on where I set my noise tolerance threshold. Right now I don't have much confidence in any DNR range test that concludes "X.X stops". Not from my test, and not from anyone else's.

If you want to compare DNR of Camera A and Camera B, I think just shooting the same scene with both and studying the results, is probably a more useful thing to do.

[Mitch Deoudes]

Seems like these sorts of numbers are only useful for *comparing* inputs, no? You've got to specify results for Red + 35mm / Dalsa / D-20 / whatever, using the same test, or the number doesn't say very much.

[jbeale]

Seems like these sorts of numbers are only useful for *comparing* inputs, no? You've got to specify results for Red + 35mm / Dalsa / D-20 / whatever, using the same test, or the number doesn't say very much.

Even more than that, at least the way I tested it, my final DNR number was very sensitive to the input processing. I could get a higher or lower number by several stops, just by changing the gamma curve, from the exact same input.

Maybe the program I used could be improved (no doubt it can) but I suspect that no matter what program or method you use to generate one number for dynamic range, it's going to depend sensitively on exactly what you do with pre- and post-processing your raw or scanned file. Based on my experience, if you sit there for hours tweeking small adjustments to a gamma curve, you can make the DNR number bigger. But what does that say about the real-life images you get from the camera? At this point I'm not sure.

[Dj Joofa]

I certainly agree with Jim's observation. I took some shots to test DNR (firmware #12) which you can see here: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/page2.html#Test_5

I used the Imatest ( http://www.imatest.com/ ) program to measure the output TIFF and I obtained anywhere between 7.5 stops and 11.5 stops from the SAME original raw frame, just by varying the gamma adjustment, and depending on where I set my noise tolerance threshold. Right now I don't have much confidence in any DNR range test that concludes "X.X stops". Not from my test, and not from anyone else's.

If you want to compare DNR of Camera A and Camera B, I think just shooting the same scene with both and studying the results, is probably a more useful thing to do.

A CMOS Chip manufacturer should be able to measure the noise level and the signal level to come up with the internal "on-sensor" dynamic range. This internal dynamic range should be easily mapped to "external" dynamic range by considering the bit-depth of the ADC.

However, manufacturers are many times ambiguous about how they measure noise levels and signal levels (is it RMS, or peak to peak, or what), and can pick ones that gives them the best numbers.

That is why users are then reduced to measuring it using experimentation by putting up a chart / pattern in front of a camera. It is difficult to devise a standard illumination environment, ambient lighting, distance of chart to camera, etc., for different users using different cameras. Hence, the natural variation in numbers for users.

[jbeale]

I don't think anyone who's serious is attempting to measure DNR with reflective charts. I'm using a carefully constructed light box which has even illumination to better than 0.05 stops across the active area, a transmissive Stouffer test wedge, and there was no ambient (front) illumination. I did some tests to measure effects of lens flare and other factors, but my point is I could get large variability from the *same frame* due to the way I did post-processing, never mind the external variables.

[Dj Joofa]

I don't think anyone who's serious is attempting to measure DNR with reflective charts. I'm using a carefully constructed light box which has even illumination to better than 0.05 stops across the active area, a transmissive Stouffer test wedge, and there was no ambient (front) illumination. I did some tests to measure effects of lens flare and other factors, but my point is I could get large variability from the *same frame* due to the way I did post-processing, never mind the external variables.

IMHO dynamic range should be kept independent of post-processing parameters such as gamma. Strictly speaking it just tells us how much different variations a sensor can recognize, and hence, gamma and other down-the-stream parameters may not be included in my opinion.

[jbeale]

IMHO dynamic range should be kept independent of post-processing parameters such as gamma. Strictly speaking it just tells us how much different variations a sensor can recognize, and hence, gamma and other down-the-stream parameters may not be included in my opinion.

As a theoretical matter, I agree with you that the gamma should not matter. As a practical matter, it turned out the program I used to measure DNR (Imatest) gives you different numbers depending on the gamma of the image, and I don't have another way to measure it quantitatively without some subjective judgement being involved.

If you'd like to try this, I have a raw file for you on this page:
http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/page2.html#Test_5

The target is a back-illuminated Stouffer T4110 with evenly spaced areas that differ in transmitted light by 1/3 stop each, for a full range covering 13.3 stops, which ought to be enough to test a 12-bit linear camera like Red.

So, here's the $64 question: what is the actual dynamic range of that image?

[Dj Joofa]

As a theoretical matter, I agree with you that the gamma should not matter. As a practical matter, it turned out the program I used to measure DNR (Imatest) gives you different numbers depending on the gamma of the image, and I don't have another way to measure it quantitatively without some subjective judgement being involved.



I agree with you on the practical aspects.

Thanks for the link. A question. Isn't the Red Raw pattern without any gamma adjustment (gamma = 1). Is that a safe assumption?

[Graeme Nattress]

jbleale - I had exactly the same issue with Imatest - just putting a different gamma slope on the 16bit data (which I know does not alter it's dynamic range one little bit) would alter the answer I'd get.

Graeme

[Karl H]

To me sceientific tests are inconclusive if everyone is using different methods. I have no doubt if Graeme says he measured 11.3 stops with the wedge, then he did.

However the F23 claims a lattitude of 12 stops, Red 11.3 . But the F23 currently outperforms the RED by 1.5 stops of lattitude in practical testing. This has been observed by different people and claudio's tests. Some say more.

That means one of two things, either the F23 is underated (and is performing around 13.5 stops, not 12) or the Red is overated (and performing at around 10 stops)

Technical numbers aside, I'm hoping the Red can match the lattitude of the F23 with build 15.

[Graeme Nattress]

If had an F23 here I'd be able to tell you. Please send the $250,000 cheque to me personally :-)

Not only have I measured 11+ on a wedge, but seen 11+ on real world images.

Graeme

[Stephen Williams]

If had an F23 here I'd be able to tell you. Please send the $250,000 cheque to me personally :-)

Not only have I measured 11+ on a wedge, but seen 11+ on real world images.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

Any chance of posting a frame of each?

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

I've posted wedges before. The footage is not mine to post. That's why I was reticent to post my statement as it's not nice for me to say something without backing it up such.

Graeme

[Karl H]

If had an F23 here I'd be able to tell you. Please send the $250,000 cheque to me personally :-)

Not only have I measured 11+ on a wedge, but seen 11+ on real world images.

Graeme

I'm afraid I spent all my money :-) but I'll let you know my observations as I only got my camera yesterday. Just gotta pick up a lens rental tomorrow :biggrin:

[Dj Joofa]

If had an F23 here I'd be able to tell you. Please send the $250,000 cheque to me personally :-)

Not only have I measured 11+ on a wedge, but seen 11+ on real world images.

Graeme

Red should have products from competing camera manufacturers in house.

[Stephen Williams]

I've posted wedges before.
Graeme

Hi Graeme,

From X cameras & with current firmware? I am interested to see what the latest cameras are capable of.

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

Nope. It was from an early shipping camera.

Graeme

[Kevin Halverson]

If had an F23 here I'd be able to tell you. Please send the $250,000 cheque to me personally :-)

Did you want that in US or Canadian dollars? :whistling:

[Graeme Nattress]

Canadian, please.

Graeme

[Michael Hastings]

Canadian, please.

Graeme

No offense, but ...


... that's a sad comment on the state of the USA - thanks a lot George.

[Andrew M.]

With Clinton era producing 200+ billion (best single year) surplus and Bush era subtracting 300+ billion (just in 2007) of debt, I am not surprised with people reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Though it is still better economical performance per capita then European Union. (2007 data)

[Kjetil Haugen]

We hope to release beta versions around March 1st. Solid build around March 10th.

Jim

Hi Jim. Are you guys still on track for March 1st release? Looking forward to it!

[Kyle Presley]

Clinton sold our oil reserves. So what?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Clinton sold our oil reserves. So what?

Yea, and Republican's are elephants and Democarat's are donkeys!

[Andrew M.]

Clinton sold our oil reserves. So what?

2004 - STANFORD -- With oil prices heading toward $50 a barrel......
U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve contains 666 million barrels -- nearly 65 days of imports -- worth nearly $30 billion at current prices. (2004)

In Clinton era the barrel was $13-$17
http://cesp.stanford.edu/news/in_oped_victor_and_house_advocate_independent_mana gement_of_us_oil_reserve_20040823/index.html

Didn't help much in his 526 billion surplus he managed to reside over:-)

But Clinton is from Arkansas and Bush is from Texas, why I am not surprised here.
Remind me which state is called oil state?

[Dane Brehm]

I heard Build 15 will solve world hunger and decreases global warming......

Can't wait lets hit that Mar. 1st date boys I'm rooting for yeah!

[number6]

But Clinton is from Arkansas and Bush is from Texas, why I am not surprised here.


Which brings up an unanswered ethical question someone once asked... "In Arkansas if you divorce your wife, is she still your sister?"

edit: maybe that's more of an etiquette question instead of an ethical one.

[Poi Boy]

genealogy question. LOL
-A

[Rich Schaefer]

This thread has been seriously derailed, but since we are here:

If we took oil off the comities market (removed the speculators) and made it a competiteve business model = oil and our gas would me much cheaper. For example Exxon would care if Shell was cheaper and they would fight each other to make it more economical..... Right now they are fat, lazy and insulated by wall street bidding $100+ /barrel.

What if Red rental rates were on the commodities market? We would be at $2500/ day and rising....oooh lets start thinking.

Jim, how do we do this? ;)

My 2 cents.

[Jarred Land]

My father owns a couple of gas stations and when i was young, that's how it used to be back in the day. The station across the street would lower the gas price by 5 cents and there would be a little price war back and forth.

That doesn't really happen anymore, and when it does, its artificial.

[Anthony Gratl]

This thread has been seriously derailed, but since we are here:

If we took oil off the comities market (removed the speculators) and made it a competiteve business model = oil and our gas would me much cheaper.

My 2 cents.

I think that's an excellent idea. Let's take oil off the commodities market....
Of course, a genuine competitive business model means removing all tax breaks and "R and D" incentives to the oil industry, which means price hikes to offset lower profit margins....in the meantime, as we phase out oil and bring in biofuels like algae grown vegetable oil, we'll start charging the real cost of oil, including the degradation to the environment.......i've never understood why everyone wants everything cheaper, when all it means is more consumption, which means dirty air, dirty water, and dirty food. Is that really what we want?

How's that for further derailment?:matrix:

my 2 cents.

[Rich Schaefer]

Evolve - good stuff!

[Remy Carter]

By the way Bio-Fuels actual cost to the environment is more extensive than most would have you believe. if you include the complete cost of bio-fuel with out govt. tax breaks and give-aways... It costs about 2 and half times more energy and money than oil does. Need to look to more dense battery material and more efficient solar collection....

Now back to the original reason for this post. Is build 15 still coming this weekend?

[Anthony Gratl]

By the way Bio-Fuels actual cost to the environment is more extensive than most would have you believe. if you include the complete cost of bio-fuel with out govt. tax breaks and give-aways... It costs about 2 and half times more energy and money than oil does. Need to look to more dense battery material and more efficient solar collection....


Just wanted to clarify my last post. I specifically only mentioned that one bio-fuel. Algae based oils actually eat carbon and spit out oxygen during the growth cycle, and have an excellent yield per acre for fuel. I agree with you that most biofuels are a dead end, curiously the ones that are being touted by agri business.
Corn based ethanol and hydrogen production is a dead end. No question.

As far as energy input versus energy output, there's no question that oil has a phenomenal return on investment. I think it's around 80 to 1 ratio versus 3.5 to 1 for corn, so I believe your numbers are pretty conservative. However, in a real reality, we would be factoring in all costs of producing something. Action and reaction. These have values. This from grade 9 science class. Course, once you weigh in the environmental destruction part of it, there's no need for oil at all. It's just convenient for our convenience culture.

Anyways, now where was that thread.....how's build 15?

[Chris Parker]

evolve. finally we can agree!

go algae-based fuels.

forget the palm oil...coconut oil...corn fuel....

i always thought you were a smart guy...but it has been really fun to 'fight' with you too on here.

but yes...back to build 15.

[Stephen Pruitt]

Unless you guys are willing to rewrite the laws of physics, you can forget about algae-based fuels, as well. What you are describing is a clear violation of the second-law of thermodynamics.

Algae eats carbon and makes fuel.

Fuel is burned, releasing carbon.

Looks like a perfect, zero sum game. . . until we account for the prodigious energy inputs required to make the system go and the huge efficiency losses in the mechanical systems actually using the created fuel. There just ain't no free lunch here guys.

Growing our own fuels is insanity, and will lead to the devastation of huge swaths of the earth's plant and animal life. "Global warming" doesn't kill species. . . but habitate destruction certainly does.

There is only one system that looks like a long-term solution at the present: Nuclear power. Sadly, the U.S. the only major world power that hasn't built a nuclear power plant in the last 30 years.

Stephen

[Patrick Tresch]

Unless you guys are willing to rewrite the laws of physics, you can forget about algae-based fuels, as well. What you are describing is a clear violation of the second-law of thermodynamics.

Algae eats carbon and makes fuel.

Fuel is burned, releasing carbon.

Looks like a perfect, zero sum game. . . until we account for the prodigious energy inputs required to make the system go and the huge efficiency losses in the mechanical systems actually using the created fuel. There just ain't no free lunch here guys.

Growing our own fuels is insanity, and will lead to the devastation of huge swaths of the earth's plant and animal life. "Global warming" doesn't kill species. . . but habitate destruction certainly does.

There is only one system that looks like a long-term solution at the present: Nuclear power. Sadly, the U.S. the only major world power that hasn't built a nuclear power plant in the last 30 years.

Stephen


Sorry but I strongly dissagree with nearly all what you have stated!

As this is a Build 15 thread... I won't answer specifically.:blush:

I whish a nice 21st century for you and your children.

Patrick

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Build 15 is coming along nicely... ....
We hope to release beta versions around March 1st. Solid build around March 10th.

Jim

Not to interupt the various discussions going on here, but....

Is a 1st of March release still the plan?

[Michael Hastings]

i've never understood why everyone wants everything cheaper, when all it means is more consumption, which means dirty air, dirty water, and dirty food. Is that really what we want?

How's that for further derailment?:matrix:

my 2 cents.

BTW Oil is a biofuel, unfortunately we are using up in a 150 years what took millions of years for biology and geology to create.

John Anderson seriouslyproposed a 50cent ($1.41 today) gas tax back in 1980.

From Wikipedia:
"The ongoing oil crisis, which had manifested itself in terms of long gas lines and rampant inflation, was a serious problem, and Carter's only response was to blame the public's "crisis of confidence." And Anderson feared that Reagan's hawkish defense attitudes and social conservatism were bad for America.

In that context, Anderson carefully crafted a platform which emphasized his centrist ideology and straight-forward, honest demeanor. He consistently reinforced his image as the "man in the middle," with liberal social and foreign policies and conservative economics.

Anderson's honesty and realism were perhaps his downfall. For example, his advocacy of a fifty cents per gallon hike in the gas tax, which would simultaneously have reduced the demand for gas and shored up the quickly-dwindling Social Security fund, was met with harsh criticism from both candidates."

Might have been helpful in a lot of areas...


Not to interupt the various discussions going on here, but....

Is a 1st of March release still the plan?

Oh, yeah - I'd like to know that too.

[Shawn Bannon]

riding bikes is awesome. of course at first some will be scared. Okay, who doesn't want alternative fuels to work? probably the wealthiest companies on the planet, the oil industry. especially with the amount of money they are making right now. oil rules the world.

[Steve Sherrick]

I came in at the beginning of this thread, missed a bunch in the middle and now see these last few posts. Is Red running on oil now? I'm confused. I'll have to read entire thread now.

[Michael Hastings]

I came in at the beginning of this thread, missed a bunch in the middle and now see these last few posts. Is Red running on oil now? I'm confused. I'll have to read entire thread now.

biodiesel only. Anything else voids the warranty!


Not to interupt the various discussions going on here, but....

Is a 1st of March release still the plan?

Oh, yeah - I'd like to know that too.

[Anthony Gratl]

Unless you guys are willing to rewrite the laws of physics, you can forget about algae-based fuels, as well. What you are describing is a clear violation of the second-law of thermodynamics.

Algae eats carbon and makes fuel.

Fuel is burned, releasing carbon.

Looks like a perfect, zero sum game. . . until we account for the prodigious energy inputs required to make the system go and the huge efficiency losses in the mechanical systems actually using the created fuel. There just ain't no free lunch here guys.

What I'm describing Stephen, is exactly what you have said, a carbon neutral system. Which in the interests of survival is what we need to begin a sustainable future. As far as "prodigious energy inputs", algae requires very little energy to grow, and it grows by eating carbon and expelling oxygen. Additionally, it can be grown anywhere, for instance a bathtub, and does not require arable land to do so. This, in combination with the diesel engine, which was designed to run on vegetable oil, and can be converted with a simple process, gives us a stop gap measure that will directly affect the level of carbon put into the air, as 25% of carbon dioxide output is the result of transportation. Currently, the rate of carbon output globally is increasing. We need to reduce carbon levels. This is but one of the ways to start making dramatic inroads. As far as a free lunch goes, your discussion in this vein seems counter to your previous claims that global warming was a big hoax. I'm assuming that your no longer making that claim, as your debating the points of sustainability, rather than dismissing them out of hand?



Growing our own fuels is insanity, and will lead to the devastation of huge swaths of the earth's plant and animal life.

Okay, please explain this rationalization to me. Devastation of huge swaths of land because why? By the way, we grow fuel for everything, including our food, and for the livestock that you eat. Which is another way to reduce carbon output. Become a vegetarian.:shifty: Livestock eat 12 kilos of grain per kilo of meat produced, of which the grain takes thousands of litres of fresh water to make. Vegetables take a tenth the amount. You also don't get nearly the same amount of protein and energy that you do from certain grains and beans. But of course you don't watch bean ads on television, nor is the bean industry in our schools....but the meat and dairy industry sure is.


"Global warming" doesn't kill species. . . but habitate destruction certainly does.

There is only one system that looks like a long-term solution at the present: Nuclear power. Sadly, the U.S. the only major world power that hasn't built a nuclear power plant in the last 30 years.

Stephen
Wow, global warming doesn't kill species huh? Do you seriously believe that?
You ever heard of this crazy thing called "adaptation"? Species evolve as the climate and geography around them changes, and adapt to their surroundings, including moving to other more hospitable climates. Whatever sustains their life. Among other things, it's how we ended up with opposable thumbs. Better swinging techniques. This process usually takes thousands, sometimes millions of years. The reason why global warming affects species is because of the accelerated rate of change in the climate. It's happening very quickly, and species are having a very hard time adapting to that accelerated change. That's why scientists are having trouble locating penguin populations in the antartic, and why the polar bears are 20% thinner then they were 10 years ago, and why 2 million year old ice shelves are collapsing as fast as we can track them. There are thousands of examples of species in danger of complete collapse, and the links frequently lead to global warming.
As far as nuclear power goes, there's another dead end. Not only does it take more energy to build one then the energy it puts out in it's sustainable life of roughly 15 years before a major overhaul, it's incredibly expensive to maintain, and the energy to mine the highly toxic to humans type fuel isn't even included in any of the projections for sustainability. And the levels of cancer clusters around nuclear power plants are significantly higher than in other regions. Oh and wait, we don't know what to do with the depleted uranium once its done, as there is no safe way to store the stuff. Unless of course you're the U.S. D of D, where you decide that the bright thing to do would be to take this highly toxic shit and put it into munitions which you then fire at seriously outgunned armies like the iraqi army part one. Which then creates this thing called "Gulf War Syndrome". Radiation ain't picky, so American vets got their share of that prize. I also have some footage of the aftereffects of DU exposure on Iraqi children in the 90's if you'd like to see. It's horrific, as is the idea that nuclear energy is the way forward.
Stephen, I'm really curious where you get your information from, as you don't seem like an unreasonable person, yet you throw out these massive generalizations that are, in my opinion, completely flawed.

I'm really sorry about the thread, although I confess that this is more interesting than build 15, as I got no camera....:innocent:

[Anthony Gratl]

biodiesel only. Anything else voids the warranty!

Awesome dude!!! Quote of the month!

[Alexander Nikishin]

God this thread is so off topic it's raining frogs.

Almost March 1st.......3 days away!

[Terry Delahunt]

God this thread is so off topic it's raining frogs.

Almost March 1st.......3 days away!

ONLY........2 days where I live!

[David Battistella]

ENOUGH! ENOUGH!

Why doesn't someone grab their RED and go and MAKE A FILM about these issues instead of debating them in a forum that is about BUILD 15!

Ah.. the fire that RED creates in people.

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning!

David

[Axel Mertes]

Global warming comes in so fast, I am not sure if I can boot the RED quickly enough :)

But honestly, having watched some planet earth docs recently, many of those shots would not exists if they had to use the RED ONE unfortunately. Those doc guys need something point and shoot, and RED ONE isn't really the best tool for this right now. I am curious if anything like a sleep mode with a quick "wake up" would ever be possible, or if that would lead again to some kind of re-design.

I am not talking about swapping out batteries - there are solutions for this on the horizon, but for getting the camera awake if you need "the moment".

Cheers,
Axel
(who wish he could do more against global warming - for his children)

[Craig Ryan]

I thought RED ran on Mr. Fusion?

[C.J.Harvaraj]

Did you want that in US or Canadian dollars? :whistling:


it all started with one question.

[Andrew Benz]

Hi Axel,

Jim did mention recently that a sleep mode is being worked on and will be integrated in a future build, but not in build 15. It would certainly help me out in the field.

I would not doubt some form of "pre roll" cache at some point but that is just my hope... not based in concrete fact.

[Michael Hastings]

ENOUGH! ENOUGH!

Why doesn't someone grab their RED and go and MAKE A FILM about these issues instead of debating them in a forum that is about BUILD 15!

Ah.. the fire that RED creates in people.

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning!

David

... smells like victory... or maybe we've forgotten what victory smells like.

[M_Sanderson]

Hi Axel,

Jim did mention recently that a sleep mode is being worked on and will be integrated in a future build, but not in build 15. It would certainly help me out in the field.

I would not doubt some form of "pre roll" cache at some point but that is just my hope... not based in concrete fact.

it would be a dream to have both cache and power save now but I am sure when my camera comes (in six months or so) it will be there. until then any idea how long one battery lasts when you are just waiting (in a hide for example)?

[Thom Steinhoff]

We hope to release beta versions around March 1st. Solid build around March 10th.

Hmm... Anyone know what today is? :sarcasm:

[jbeale]

Maybe it's actually Feb. 30th. Kind of a leap-leap year?

> any idea how long one battery lasts when you are just waiting

I've heard 60 to 90 minutes on one Red battery. Oddly, I heard today at the DCS meeting in Sunnyvale that the power consumption is higher in standby than when actually shooting. That would be surprising if true, I haven't been able to confirm it.

[zak forrest]

maybe because of the fan turning off when you shoot?

[Mark L. Pederson]

I am so ready to bang on 15 ...

[conrad gaunt]

Nice thread. I`m bringing back the word bonkers!

[M_Sanderson]

I've heard 60 to 90 minutes on one Red battery. Oddly, I heard today at the DCS meeting in Sunnyvale that the power consumption is higher in standby than when actually shooting. That would be surprising if true, I haven't been able to confirm it.

When I saw the red in action the fan switched off when shooting and when not recording it whirred into action.
60-90 mins isnt too long.
Since my above post I found in another thread that there is a third party product from actionproducts that allows you to have 2 batteries attached and swap them without powering down. Now thats what we need.

great stuff

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Where is the beta update?????

[PAzevedo]

Hi to you all,

Delighted with the the tecnical issues debated here, but...
Thanks Jim for makes us dream, Thank you guys on RED LAb Spain to make possible to me touch the Red Camera.

I think we are talking here about tests done is extreme conditions. What about the camera craft? What about lighting? I understand your doubts and you expectations, but we are talking about digital here. If you go outside at night with a 35mm cam you also experiment grain because it goes under exposure. For me the diference is that noise it´s electronic, grain is photo chemical, and for that more acceptable in an aethetic away.
Get a good DP and two assistants, rent the light you need and you are on the movies with this camera.

I´m happy because now i´m forced to use 35mm methods on a digital workflow. Thank´s jim, once again, for that too.

Like the Canon XL1 for many years, i know that this will be my camera now.

[CJ Roy]

Status on build 15?

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I could really use it. Huge night shoot on 3rd of March.....

Jochen

[Jannard]

We are testing and hammering on 15... a few more bugs to squish, but pretty soon for beta.

Jim

[Warren Kommers]

"pretty soon" could mean so many different units of time.

Should we start a poll and guess?

CAN'T WAIT! BRING IT

[Steve Freebairn]

We are testing and hammering on 15... a few more bugs to squish, but pretty soon for beta.

Jim

Any chance it's coming out tonight?

[Stuart English]

Any chance it's coming out tonight?

No. The beta of Build 14 raised a few issues that needed to be addressed first; so although internal testing of 15 is going fine, it'll be a few days yet.

[Scott Webster]

No. The beta of Build 14 raised a few issues that needed to be addressed first; so although internal testing of 15 is going fine, it'll be a few days yet.

Stuart, Does that mean we get a release build of 14 and a beta of 15, on release of 15?

[Jarred Land]

no, you will see a release version of 14.. and the beta section will go blank for a bit until the beta for 15 shows up.

...15 is that special :)

[Bing Bailey]

jared you are a laugh riot :)

[Jarred Land]

yeah.. plan is to make you guys laugh so hard that you don't notice the delay.

[Clint Johnson]

What delay?

[Alexander Nikishin]

The wait for build 15 begins.... Start the Jeapordy theme music.

[vincelucero]

how bout release 15, then 15.1 when all the bugs are squished. worth a shot...

[Poi Boy]

like it !
-A

[Steve Freebairn]

What about putting simultaneous outputs into the release of 14? That's what I need for tomorrow.

Should I be able to run an HD SDI monitor at the same time as a 720p HDMI tap?

[BradWright]

I've been reading the posts going around and around about dynamic range, and I thought I might add some totally useless comments.

Dynamic range is only a part of what makes a good image. The linear accuracy of the steps between the highest and lowest recorded elements and the noise present in the image needs to be taken into account. There's probably a huge amount of other factors that I'm leaving out, but I did warn you about these comments being useless.

Any comparison between two different sensors requires a wide range of tests to expose the weaknesses. But at the end of all that, the only important thing is that you can make money and survive with what you have. Do you like what you are getting from the camera or not? It's about the only question that matters.

[Warren Kommers]

I have a huge demo this week for huge DP's. They aren't going to care about price/performance or many other cool features about RED as much because they don't need to worry about that stuff. Just image quality. If 15 makes any significant improvement to the image I sure hope it's ready. Squash dem bugz RED team! Squash em!

[Stuart English]

What about putting simultaneous outputs into the release of 14? That's what I need for tomorrow.

Should I be able to run an HD SDI monitor at the same time as a 720p HDMI tap?

You can do that specific combination with Build 13 or 14...

[Obin Olson]

when do we get build 15?

[Colin Hubick]

yes...when?

[Obin Olson]

kinda need LCD and hdmi out asap for a job..... Any eta?

[Shawn Bannon]

BUILD 15 tonight? this week? will build 15 be shipping with cameras 1,000+ or do you not ship cameras with beta builds?

[Keith Neff]

Doing some test shooting here set up our Red in a room with lots of windows full sun and snow on the ground outside. The guys exposed for the snow and barely lite the talent inside the room. Looked like crap on the monitors but we shot it, exported as log DPX 2K, imported it to Flame 2008, did a quick color correct and it was great! Our Flame artist was able to pull out all the detail from interior shadows to the snow detail surprisingly little noise, great look.
Setup ASA-320 Zeiss 18mm prime interior lighting two 1K's through tough blue.
Not bad for 14, wondering what 15 will bring.

[Jannard]

Doing some test shooting here set up our Red in a room with lots of windows full sun and snow on the ground outside. The guys exposed for the snow and barely lite the talent inside the room. Looked like crap on the monitors but we shot it, exported as log DPX 2K, imported it to Flame 2008, did a quick color correct and it was great! Our Flame artist was able to pull out all the detail from interior shadows to the snow detail surprisingly little noise, great look.
Setup ASA-320 Zeiss 18mm prime interior lighting two 1K's through tough blue.
Not bad for 14, wondering what 15 will bring.

You have just described what we have been suggesting all along. Protect the highlights that matter, bring up the rest as is possible.

Jim

[Steve Freebairn]

You can do that specific combination with Build 13 or 14...

We got it working, but only in preview mode, never could get the monitor to show the menus with either a dell sp2208fpw or the dell e248. All in all though, the camera performed great running build 14 and the Producer was pretty amazed at what could be done with the footage in Redcine just minutes after being shot.