Complete Red One Camera Package Price

[Manfred Lopez]

Okay, so now that the prices are out I was wondering if someone could explain to me what the price is for a complete functioning package. Since there are things listed like RAM for $4,500 I am not sure if this is an "option" or "necesity" for making the camera work.

[Manfred Lopez]

So, this is what I have so far:

RED ONE CAMERA BODY........................$17,500
RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK........$1,250
RED ONE POWER PACK..........................$1,650
RED LCD Screen...................................$1,700
RED DRIVE 320GB (x2)..........................$1,800
RED RAM 64GB.....................................$4,500

Total............................................. ......$28,400


Is this correct for a minimum working system?

[Manfred Lopez]

Okay, I guess one doesn´t need the ram pack. So here it is again:

RED ONE CAMERA BODY........................$17,500
RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK........$1,250
RED ONE POWER PACK..........................$1,650
RED LCD Screen...................................$1,700
RED DRIVE 320GB (x2)..........................$1,800

Total............................................. ......$23,900

[PaulClements]

This is what I'm looking at and I Imagine a number of others will be too:

RED ONE CAMERA BODY $17,500
RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK $2,750
RED ONE POWER PACK $1,650
RED EVF Viewfinder $2,950
RED DRIVE 320GB $900 x 2
Nikkor 35mm Photo Mount $500
Sub Total = 27150
Allowance = -2500
Reservation = -1000
Total = 23650

[Alexander Nikishin]

+Tax for me. :angry02:

[Curran Giddens]

$17,500 RED ONE
6,500 RAW PORT
2,750 RED ONE PREMIUM PRODUCTION PACK
1,700 RED LCD
1,450 RED ONE POWER PACK
900 RED DRIVE
900 RED DRIVE
300 LCD Extension cable 10ft.
175 RED ARM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$32,175 Sub-Total

- 2,500 Allowance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$29,675 Total

[PaulClements]

Tax for me too Alexander, I'll probably claim the VAT back but I dare say the duty will come to a bit. Looks like I'll probably be using Nikkors to begin with, I had hoped to pick up 2nd hand cine lenses but looks like I might as well buy this setup and rent pl mount lenses.

[Manfred Lopez]

Ahh... the nikkor mount. Forgot about that. So for non-reservation holders it is going to be $27,150.00 ..... Still not bad. I wish other camera companies had accesories at these prices.

[Larry McKee]

Paul, that's my system exactly. I had figured around $25K for a complete system and that pretty much on target.

[PaulClements]

Oh and lets not forget about insurance... oh and a case... I think that's about it :)

[PaulClements]

and a nice $100 nikkor lense so I can actually shoot something hahaha :)

[Chris Gearhart]

Oh yeah. I forgot about my reservation money!

[Manfred Lopez]

+Tax for me. :angry02:


So if the camera is shipped within the US to another state that is not California, there wil be no tax, right? So it might be worth it for all those in europe to have it shipped to New York or something and just fly in to pick it up. With flights from europe at $500 round-trip I think it´s definitely worth it.

[Ben Feuer]

The LCD comes with the camera, right? So that should knock a bit off unless you want two LCDs...

[Manfred Lopez]

The LCD comes with the camera, right? So that should knock a bit off unless you want two LCDs...

No, I don´t think so.

[LighthouseMEdia]

LCD does not come with the camera 17.5 is just the body by iteslf no power, no lcd.

[Jaime Vallés]

RED ONE - $17,500
Basic Production Pack - $1250
RED Charger - $750
RED Brick Battery - $450
RED LCD - $1700
RED Drive - $900
Nikkor mount - $500

Subtotal: $22,550
Minus $2,500 allowance
TOTAL: $20,050

Can I get away without the Basic Production Pack ($1250) and still be able to shoot?

[Larry McKee]

Jaime, you would need to build brackets to mount your battery and Red Drive onto.

[Manfred Lopez]

Can I get away without the Basic Production Pack ($1250) and still be able to shoot?

I guess, but I don´t think you´ll be able to mount it on a tripod or anything. The only films one will be able to do then is the Dogme95 films where everything is handheld with sketchy focus.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Don´t forget that you may want a decent matte box with filter trays and flags!

[PaulClements]

... And follow focus

[PaulClements]

And no it wouldn't be cheaper to pick it up from New york because you still have to declare it and pay the same duty/vat anyway. If you don't declare it then you might get it confiscated and be sent to prison (Unlikely since all the prisons are full hehe).

[Manfred Lopez]

Okay, so if we want the raw port option, how much more would that add to the package. I mean what else besides the $6,500. What connects to the other side?

[Manfred Lopez]

And no it wouldn't be cheaper to pick it up from New york because you still have to declare it and pay the same duty/vat anyway. If you don't declare it then you might get it confiscated and be sent to prison (Unlikely since all the prisons are full hehe).

That is what´s so great about a country like Mexico. First, you don´t declare it. Then you have to press a button on a trafic light at the airport. If you get green, then you´re home free. But if you get red, then you haggle over the dutty that you´re supposed to pay on the item that you "forgot" you had with you. Since they don´t know what red is or how much it costs, you convince them that it is a disco light and only worth $30.

[Chris Gearhart]

That is what´s so great about a country like Mexico. First, you don´t declare it. Then you have to press a button on a trafic light at the airport. If you get green, then you´re home free. But if you get red, then you haggle over the dutty that you´re supposed to pay on the item that you "forgot" you had with you. Since they don´t know what red is or how much it costs, you convince them that it is a disco light and only worth $30.

Ha ha ha!

[Stuart English]

If you add the RAW PORT for uncompressed 4K and 4K+ recording, then you are also looking at hooking it up to a $100K+ price range 4K / 4K+ capable DDR.

Historically that's actually a good deal, but compare that option against the power of REDCODE RAW which enables 4K resolution internal recording. And by the way REDCODE RAW recording was a very significant post NAB 2006 upgrade to the camera specifications. This was 100% the right thing to do as it made a 4K workflow truely affordable, but did also add some extra hardware costs.

[Manfred Lopez]

If you add the RAW PORT for uncompressed 4K and 4K+ recording, then you are also looking at hooking it up to a $100K+ price range 4K / 4K+ capable DDR.


Soooo... when will the Red Team announce their own 4k capable DDR... Like for $10,000 :) (I guess there is no pleasing us)

[Evin Grant]

They alredy have, It's called a Red Drive!

[Anders Holck]

Ok, just finished correcting my excel budget for the 2 Red one cameras, replacing my estimated prices with the real ones.
I'm happy to report that the total ended up only $2500 more expensive than estimated...pretty close. Red rail/cage was cheaper, but the batteries was a little more expensive. Batterymount+LCD was not included in the base price, but the allowance covered that.

[Jannard]

We are happy to sell any customer a RAW Port, but I want to make sure they see REDCODE RAW vs. RAW before they spend the money.

Jim

[Sean]

DIY indie budget (for narrative filmmaking):

$17,500 camera
$ 1,200 (only one battery and Charger with LEMO Cable to run camera off household current 90% of the time)
$ 1,700 LCD viewfinder
$ 900 Raid (one day soon flash media will be bigger/faster/cheaper...I'll wait until then)
$ 500 Nikkor mount (or you could rent or borrow PL mount lenses)
________
$21,800 TOTAL
- 2,500 minus generous Red allowance
$19,300 from my bank account to yours

All Nikkor lenses come with hoods (preventing lens flares just as effectively as a matte box, or you use flags or your sister holds up a pillow to block the light). Similarly, you can screw on ND filters and polarizing filters to any of these lenses. I already have the RedRock follow focus and I'm happy with it.

I'm firmly convinced I can jerry-rig various camera junk I have to make a safe, workable shoulder mount and a handle grip that screws into an available slot on the camera. Standard screw sizes are standard screw sizes. (Obviously, way easier to just buy the Cage, but heck, if I had Jim Jannard's money I wouldn't need mine!) The shoulder mount below is a starting point--vintage 1960's purchased for $11 on ebay. :-)

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/9412/1173569912.jpg

[Ken K]

+Tax for me. :angry02:
So, seeing as how I'll need a way of making money to purchase my lovely RED, I came up with a win/win solution for those of you who live in California. Say your purchase is around $20k - that's over $1700 in taxes. Tell you what, change your shipping address to my place up here in Oregon (you know, California's Canada) and I'll charge you $700 to ship it down to you in California. You save $1000 and I make some money for my RED purchase. Everybody wins! :innocent:

[Joel Kaye]

DIY indie budget (for narrative filmmaking):

$17,500 camera
$ 1,200 (only one battery and Charger with LEMO Cable to run camera off household current 90% of the time)
$ 900 Raid (one day soon flash media will be bigger/faster/cheaper...I'll wait until then)
$ 500 Nikkor mount (or you could rent or borrow PL mount lenses)
________
$20,100 TOTAL
- 2,500 minus generous Red allowance
$17,600 from my bank account to yours




I'm not seeing a viewfinder of some sort there.

[Rick Darge]

The indie filmmaker needs no such thing joelnet..

[Manfred Lopez]

We are happy to sell any customer a RAW Port, but I want to make sure they see REDCODE RAW vs. RAW before they spend the money.

Jim

I very much believe the quality of the codec will be breathtaking. Its just that now we are trying to understand all the options offered, and the word "raw output" still has a strange, magical power to it. But even so, in the end I am sure we'll all follow Jim's suggestions and Redcode Raw will become an industry standard.

Thanks, Jim.

[chuck colburn]

So, seeing as how I'll need a way of making money to purchase my lovely RED, I came up with a win/win solution for those of you who live in California. Say your purchase is around $20k - that's over $1700 in taxes. Tell you what, change your shipping address to my place up here in Oregon (you know, California's Canada) and I'll charge you $700 to ship it down to you in California. You save $1000 and I make some money for my RED purchase. Everybody wins! :innocent:

Beat you on that one by almost three hours! lol

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=901

And we got great sking at Mt. Ashland

[Manfred Lopez]

I'm not seeing a viewfinder of some sort there.

One could always adapt a riffle scope on top of the camera. :biggrin:

[Sean]

Damn. Viewfinder + $1700. Thought I missed something from the list. ;-)

[Ken K]

Beat you on that one by over an hour! lol

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=901

LOL... great minds think alike! I just hope they realize they don't have to pay import taxes - we're still in the US. :)

Btw, does it count if I meant to post something about this a couple weeks ago when I was trying to figure out how I was going to pay for this thing?

[Joel Kaye]

One could always adapt a riffle scope on top of the camera. :biggrin:

Haha - you probably could. And it would probably work. Everybody at Sundance would compliment your BOLD composition choices. Film buffs could even decipher the deeper meaning behind those choices.

[Ken K]

One could always adapt a riffle scope on top of the camera. :biggrin:
LOL... that's hilarious! Just don't go shooting any presidential candidate rallies here in the US. Rifle scope mounted on a high tech looking camera the Secret Service isn't familiar with = dead. Seriously, if I was an SS sniper and I saw someone with that thing I wouldn't even ask to take the shot. The RED just looks threatening, especially with the optional rifle scope. :)

[Pig]

Minimalist package:

RED ONE CAMERA BODY........................$17500
RED DRIVE 320GB (x2)............................$1800
CF OPTION............................................ $500
CANON MOUNT.......................................$500

TOTAL DUE: $16800

(Battery: other, LCD: via HDMI on larger LCD, Cage: other...)

[chuck colburn]

LOL... great minds think alike! I just hope they realize they don't have to pay import taxes - we're still in the US. :)

Btw, does it count if I meant to post something about this a couple weeks ago when I was trying to figure out how I was going to pay for this thing?

Well that's hindsight, and you know what they say about that!
But the important thing is to not letem stay to long, elsewise they move here.
Just kidding all you Californicators! I'm from there myself.
Let me know if your doing any shooting down here. I'd be happy to pull cable for ya.

Chuck

[donatello b]

"live in California. Say your purchase is around $20k - that's over $1700 in taxes. Tell you what, change your shipping address to my place "

for california - if you are engaged in teleproduction/post production activities and teh equipment purchase is used 50% or more in those activities - you are except from 5% of the state sales tax (you pay tax amount above 5% )... section 6378 -CA rev & tax code section 1 , division 2 - Sales & Use tax , exemptions & exclsuions ..

if i remember correctly?? - you would need to fill out a section 6378 exception - hand it over to RED when you purchase and you only pay the tax above the 5% which in CA would be 2- 2.7 depending on county where you live ?
if you sell the equipment or it/you leaves the state within one year of purchase you then owe CA the 5% tax ..
i could be wrong/correct -check with your tax person ...

[Manfred Lopez]

So 2.7% of a $25,000 purchase comes to $675. I wonder what the shipping will be for the ramera and accesories. If it's $75, and you live close to the border of another state, then it might still be worth it to have it shipped. $600 could buy you lunch and an extra battery.

[chuck colburn]

So 2.7% of a $25,000 purchase comes to $675. I wonder what the shipping will be for the ramera and accesories. If it's $75, and you live close to the border of another state, then it might still be worth it to have it shipped. $600 could buy you lunch and an extra battery.

The The,

You be careful, Chazmo and I are just goofing (I think). Don't pay for it with a check drawn on a Calif. bank! hehehe
You wouldn't believe the amount of big motorhomes and exspensive automobiles that are registered in this state. (It costs $52.00 to register any vehicle here for two years!)

Chuck

[Greg M]

"live in California. Say your purchase is around $20k - that's over $1700 in taxes. Tell you what, change your shipping address to my place "

for california - if you are engaged in teleproduction/post production activities and the equipment purchase is used 50% or more in those activities - you are except from 5% of the state sales tax (you pay tax amount above 5% )... section 6378 -CA rev & tax code section 1 , division 2 - Sales & Use tax , exemptions & exclsuions ..

if i remember correctly?? - you would need to fill out a section 6378 exception - hand it over to RED when you purchase and you only pay the tax above the 5% which in CA would be 2- 2.7 depending on county where you live ?
if you sell the equipment or it/you leaves the state within one year of purchase you then owe CA the 5% tax ..
i could be wrong/correct -check with your tax person ...

FYI-
Regardless of what state you live in, you are obligated to report equipment purchases to your state and pay sales tax, this is just part of doing business. You are not "exempt" from sales and use tax just because you dont live in California. The obligation is off the seller if he doesnt have an office in your state to collect, but the obligation is on YOU to report.
If you are ever audited by your state sales tax department you will be responsible for the tax and penalties. Be warned, audits in our industry have a higher percentage than most others.

[Manfred Lopez]

Damn. I guess I won't be getting that free lunch.

[chuck colburn]

FYI-
Regardless of what state you live in, you are obligated to report equipment purchases to your state and pay sales tax, this is just part of doing business. You are not "exempt" from sales and use tax just because you dont live in California. The obligation is off the seller if he doesnt have an office in your state to collect, but the obligation is on YOU to report.
If you are ever audited by your state sales tax department you will be responsible for the tax and penalties. Be warned, audits in our industry have a higher percentage than most others.

Huh, is that true if your state has no sales tax?

[Greg M]

0% of $25k is $0

you only pay the tax your state would collect, not California tax if you live in Oregon. In Louisiana I will have to pay 9% tax.

[Mark Allen]

... section 6378 -CA rev & tax code section 1 , division 2 - Sales & Use tax , exemptions & exclsuions ..

if i remember correctly?? - you would need to fill out a section 6378 exception

That's correct and a good reminder for RED to have their system handle that. It should be obvious but many companies for some reason "aren't able" to give that tax discount. Dell, after assuring me they would when I bought my monitor, never did. It is the key thing which soured me on Dell.


Another tax reminder for folks... many many states (including Califronia) DO charge tax on something you buy from out of state. You have to claim it. It's only been in the last couple years that they've been taking it seriously, but they are auditing for this specifically now.

[Greg M]

normally this would need to be earned in the form of a credit...I dont think vendors are required to discount for you. In other words, you are required to file a claim for refund of the tax after your purchase. You have the obligation to prove you are eligible.

[Mark Allen]

normally this would need to be earned in the form of a credit...I dont think vendors are required to discount for you. In other words, you are required to file a claim for refund of the tax after your purchase.

Interesting, in all my purchases, I've never done that. I've just told the vender I'm in post-production, they whip out the form, I don't even have to bring it. Off the top of my head West LA Music has done this, so has Mac Connection.

[Thomas Mathai]

I wonder what the complete system cost will be from capture to finish.

[Greg M]

thats cool, maybe they have simplified the process

[Manfred Lopez]

I wonder what the complete system cost will be from capture to finish.

Do you mean including post?

[Greg M]

BTW- you can thank Louisiana for that...we have been getting very aggressive in our Film Tax Credits which has caused CA to react with this incentive. We are now #3 in Film Production in the U.S.

[Manfred Lopez]

BTW- you can thank Louisiana for that...we have been getting very aggressive in our Film Tax Credits which has caused CA to react with this incentive. We are now #3 in Film Production in the U.S.

By the way, doesn't New York also have a 100% tax exemption?

[dalemccready]

Can anyone tell me where the numbers for the allowance came from? I'm number #498. Haven't seen the $2500 listed anywhere

[donatello b]

"normally this would need to be earned in the form of a credit"

if you paid the full tax at time of purchase then you would apply to get a credit ..however under 6378 you MUST give the 6378 certificate filled out to CA vendor to not pay the 5% ..
a out of state vendor does not have to accept it and if they do collect the tax then you would file for a credit ...

AND for CA residents if buying items out of state & the out of state vendor doesn't collect all taxes ( 7+ %) due then we are suppose to fill out form xxxxx and pay the sales tax directly to CA !!!

[Steve Gibby]

Right here Dale...on Jim's thread opening post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=887

[Gabriel Beaudry]

For those in Canada you have to remember that we don't have to pay any import tax on "video" equipment.

[dalemccready]

Crikey, how did I miss that one!

Thanks very much, and also thank you Jim. Of course that extra money would go to more accessories in a heartbeat if I have my way.

[Chris Kenny]

By the way, doesn't New York also have a 100% tax exemption?

Yes, NYS has an exemption for "tangible personal property used directly and predominantly in the production (including editing, dubbing, and mixing) of a film for sale regardless of the medium by which the film is conveyed to the purchaser." See form ST-121, which also mentions a similar exemption for equipment used to produce material for broadcast. You must also be registered as a sales tax vendor (form DTF-17). One or the other of these could also get you out of paying sales taxes on your editing workstation, etc. as well.

I'm not sure if this exemption will apply for people who primarily plan to rent their gear out rather than making movies with it themselves.

As always, consult your accountant before taking tax advice from random people on the Internet.

[Curran Giddens]

We are happy to sell any customer a RAW Port, but I want to make sure they see REDCODE RAW vs. RAW before they spend the money.

Jim

I only need the RAW port for 4k 60fps and 2k 120fps. I will use REDCODE RAW for everything else. I won't mind paying $6,500 for the RAW port, as long as the RED-RAID is still being considered for development. There is no way I can spend $100k+ for some third-party DDR.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

"

if i remember correctly?? - you would need to fill out a section 6378 exception - hand it over to RED when you purchase .

someone posted this form on dvx user a while back.. does anyone know where to find it?

[donatello b]

form 6378

http://www.dv411.com/form6378.html

[Michael Schrengohst]

FYI-
Regardless of what state you live in, you are obligated to report equipment purchases to your state and pay sales tax, this is just part of doing business. You are not "exempt" from sales and use tax just because you dont live in California. The obligation is off the seller if he doesnt have an office in your state to collect, but the obligation is on YOU to report.
If you are ever audited by your state sales tax department you will be responsible for the tax and penalties. Be warned, audits in our industry have a higher percentage than most others.

Not in Texas, all equipment used in the creation of motion picture/videos
is tax exempt. We have no state income tax, but we have one of the highest rates of property tax and insurance rates......at least the houses are cheaper here.
http://www.governor.state.tx.us/divisions/film/incentives/salestax.htm

[Jay A. Kelley]

Question on the battery situation.. If I purchase a AB to Vmount adaptor, will my Anton Bauer batteries work on RED? I would rather put the money towards things I DON'T have vs. Things I already have.

Jay

[Larry McKee]

Jay,

Jarred said the AB to V-Mount adapter had been test with RED and it works.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay,

Jarred said the AB to V-Mount adapter had been test with RED and it works.

This is fantastic news. Means my investment in Anton Baur Batteries and my super cool titan on board AC adaptor will still work just fine.. And now I have $1,650 to put towards a better Mattebox

Jay

Jarred thanks for Testing this.

[Manfred Lopez]

I also have the titan charger and Anton Dionic bricks. They are pretty good and should be more than enough for the Red One.

[luis bustamante]

If you add the RAW PORT for uncompressed 4K and 4K+ recording, then you are also looking at hooking it up to a $100K+ price range 4K / 4K+ capable DDR.

Historically that's actually a good deal, but compare that option against the power of REDCODE RAW which enables 4K resolution internal recording. And by the way REDCODE RAW recording was a very significant post NAB 2006 upgrade to the camera specifications. This was 100% the right thing to do as it made a 4K workflow truely affordable, but did also add some extra hardware costs.

Mr English, do you have any news on the RED EXTERNAL (not camera mounted) RAID?

thanks & congratulations!

[Curran Giddens]

I am also very interested in any news about the external RED-RAID. My decision about camera configuration (even camera purchase), is based on if the RED-RAID will ever be made. I can't count on a third-party providing an affordable solution. I don't mind waiting over a year for the RED-RAID either.

[Gabriel Beaudry]

I only need the RAW port for 4k 60fps and 2k 120fps. I will use REDCODE RAW for everything else. I won't mind paying $6,500 for the RAW port, as long as the RED-RAID is still being considered for development. There is no way I can spend $100k+ for some third-party DDR.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the RAW Port as any internal media. You need an external device to capture the footage.

[Curran Giddens]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the RAW Port as any internal media. You need an external device to capture the footage.

You are correct. That is what the RED-RAID is supposed to be for (if it is even still in the plans for development).

[Andrew M.]

They alredy have, It's called a Red Drive!

Do we have any idea about the price of RED DRIVE?

[Anders Holck]

The Red Drive is on the price list.
As you know it does 4k Redcode RAW at up to 30 fps. Essentially a 4k raw DDR when used in conjunction with the red camera
This was what Evin was suggesting, because of the focus in this thread on the uncomressed RAW port.

It went down like this:


The The: Soooo... when will the Red Team announce their own 4k capable DDR... Like for $10,000 (I guess there is no pleasing us)



Evin Grant: They alredy have, It's called a Red Drive!

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Until the infrastructure beyond the camera matures a bit more I do not expect more than a handful of people to actually mess with RAW output.

The biggest issue for most of us is overcranking capability. IMHO if you need more than 60fps hire a Phantom for those particular shots. I have no specific information to support this other than logic, but it is my belief that in a few years that RED will offer a major upgrade of the electronic guts of the camera that (combined with improved code, etc) will dramatically increase the frame rates.

On the bright side anything destined for TV can be shot at 120fps 720P and should cut in just fine, theatrical might work as well but until we get to test actual footage its all educated guesswork.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Sorry for the cross-post, but I love to see all my toys typed out! Here's my personal RED package (already own batteries and a ton of Nikkors).

RED ONE body ............................. $17,500
RED EVF ........................................ 2,950
RED DRIVE 320GB HDD ........................ 900
Nikon F-mount adapter for RED ONE ...... 500
RED ONE RAIL-BASIC ....................... 1,250

Sub-total ................................... $23,100
Less "reservation credit"...................(2,500)
Total ......................................... $20,600

If you ask me, that's a LOT of very high-quality, movie-makin' stuff for only $20,600!!!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You got that right, Ralph. That's a lot of stuff for the money... What are you thinking of doing for record options? I'm going with a couple RED DRIVEs at first. Although, if they can get the $/GB ratio to half of what is now, I would take a seriously look at RED RAM. It's still a better deal than P2 as it's 1/2 the price per GB. But Looks like you and me both have until later this summer before buying, here's what I'm thinking:

RED ONE body $17,500
RED ONE Preimum Production Pack $2,750
RED EVF $2,950
RED ONE Power Pack $1,450 (other battery options under consideration)
NIKON Adapter $500
RED DRIVE x 2 $1,800
FLASH Module (1.8" SATA) $500

Sub Total $27,450
Reservation Credit $2,500

Total $24,950

I've also reserved both RED lenses, but I think I'm going to just use my Nikons. So that's $2500 down (camera + 2 lenses reserved) that I have already applied to my purchase. So I'm looking at a $25K camera package. I will need a new computer or two and some more lights probably another microphone. I'll probably have $35K to $40K invested in my new RED setup by the end of the year. Not bad considering only 8 months ago, I was still wrestling with the idea of buying a used Varicam or older F900 (body only) for about that same amount of money. Ouch.

[Jiri Bakala]

Nice numbers....$25k give and take... is everyone going to use photo lenses here? What about those who work in the documentary/TV fields? I think that for these calculations we need to add either a B4 mount + HD zoom lens combo (anywhere between $15-20k or more) or a good s16 or 35mm zoom lens with a controller - probably also at least $8k (for a used 16mm unit) and quite a bit more for new. The Red zoom is nice and only $9,500 but it's little short for documentary work, sports or nature. Hence the possible need to go with a B4 HD zoom from Fujinon or Canon.

So, by the time the dust settles, we are looking at some $35-50k or more.

[Chris Forbes]

As respectfully as possible. What advantages do you see in using a B4 mount HD lens vs. a very long Nikon lens?

Rocker zoom
Public perception
?
?

A B4 lens will only cover a portion of the image sensor leaving you handicapped as to resolution.

[Jiri Bakala]

Chris, I didn't say the a B4 zoom is better. I only listed the various lens options.

Now, as for the advantages, the biggest is its flexibility. I work mostly in the documentary genre and television and prime lenses wouldn't work for me. As I stated, the Red zoom is way too short, so the remaining options are either PL lenses or B4. I only googled 16mm zooms briefly a few weeks ago and found some used zooms around $6-10k. Of course, these are cinema style lenses that don't have the rocker/start-stop/etc. functions, which means that one can either use manual ring for focal length adjustments (which doesn't always work) or get a zoom controller.

BTW, I realize that I would be using only a portion of the sensor and getting lower resolution but for TV work 1080p will be around for a long time. As we all know, it's not really even implemented yet. For fiction work renting lenses is a better way to go anyway.

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Here's my estimated budget for a FULL package taking into account my own aggressive eBay buying prowess:

Camera w/ allowance 15,000
Premium Production Pack 2,750
Power Pack 1,450
Viewfinder 2,950
LCD Screen 1,700
Red Drive 900

Camera Total: 24,750

Prime Lenses 3,000
Zoom Lens 3,000
Filters 200
Matte Box 1,000
Follow Focus 1,000

Lens Total: 8,200

Sticks 500
Indie dolly 1,500
HD-SDI Monitor 1,000
Microphone 500
Storage Case 200

Accessory Total: 3,700

Insurance (annual:) 2,000

GRAND TOTAL: $38,650

[Jiri Bakala]

Alexis, when you are at it, could you buy me a $3k zoom too?
:-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Nice numbers....$25k give and take... is everyone going to use photo lenses here? What about those who work in the documentary/TV fields? I think that for these calculations we need to add either a B4 mount + HD zoom lens combo

IMO, there's no reason to use a B4 mount or broadcast style lenses unless you already own them or have direct access to them. With B4, you only get access to the 2/3" CCD window area, which means shooting anything over native 1080p gives you vignetting, s16 and larger isn't even do-able really. You don't get the auto focus advantages of your lenses, only a power tap where you could rig up a zoom controller. Not to mention that for the price of the B4 mount alone you could buy yourself a Nikon 17-35mm, 50mm prime, 85mm prime and maybe even a 70-200mm Sigma or Nikkor or something to that effect.

If I were going to use RED mostly for ENG, I would go for s16 lenses and shoot 2K RAW onboard @ up to 60fps to FLASH and/or RED RAM.

[Jiri Bakala]

You are right about the costs of a broadcast HD zoom. Do you have any suggestion for s16 zooms suitable for documentary/tv reality work?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You are right about the costs of a broadcast HD zoom. Do you have any suggestion for s16 zooms suitable for documentary/tv reality work?

I don't know, I haven't looked for them specifically. Occasionally there's older 16mm Cooke lenses on eBay. The last week or so there have been a few like a 9-50mm and a 20-100mm (I think). I'd look for some of the Angieneaux s16mm lenses as you can probably find them used or purchase rarely-rented units from a rental house. I would think you'll need two s16 lenses to cover the bases. One short zoom like that 9-50mm (usually goes for under $1200), but it's only 16mm, not s16. And maybe a longer one like a 70-200. But long zooms are going to be tricky to manage without auto focus in a run-n-gun situation. Then again, B4 mount lenses will suffer from that too... You just get the option to rig up a zoom controller or rocker switch for the zoom servo.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

CAMERA BODY – $14,000 (2500 allowance and 1000$ reservation)
Red one premium production pack -$2,750
RED EVF Viewfinder $2,950
Nikkor 35mm Photo Mount $500
RED DRIVE 320GB $900
$21,100


leaves me alot of room for some nice nikkors, matte box and FF (unless i can modify my ff so it doesnt have that backlash)

[Ralph Oshiro]

You got that right, Ralph. That's a lot of stuff for the money... What are you thinking of doing for record options? I'm going with a couple RED DRIVEs at first. Although, if they can get the $/GB ratio to half of what is now, I would take a seriously look at RED RAM. It's still a better deal than P2 as it's 1/2 the price per GB. But Looks like you and me both have until later this summer before buying . . .
Hey, AV! I'm just starting out with one HDD. Since it stores at least an hour of 4K REDCODE (has that changed--is it two hours now?), I typically don't shoot more than an hour in a day for my short film projects. Eventually, I'm sure I'll get two HDDs. Why are you getting the "deluxe" rail package? It's so much more pricey that the "basic" rail package.

Don't really understand the RAM storage options yet. Is the $500 flash RAM just so you can overcrank?

[Steve Gibby]

Bakalaj,

IMO if you do a lot of EFP/ENG work genres for which B4 2/3" HD ENG lenses are the norm, and already own the lenses, or have the ability to rent them easily for such projects, using B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom lenses with RED One makes very good sense - especially for those project genres where the field workflow doesn't call for/allow the use of cine lenses and accessories (follow focus, matte box, rails, etc), and delivery is in resolutions of 1080p on down. In some genres of mobile EFP/ENG work, the ability to zoom with a rocker switch on your right hand is critical to the motion and ergonomics of the workflow. The left hand is racking focus and adjusting iris. Those who haven't worked in those genres sometimes assume that a S16 cine lens, with a follow focus is the cure-all for all things EFP/ENG - not so IMO. Some EFP genres call for that S16/FF setup - but others call for a powered zoom rocker, thus B4 2/3" HD ENG lenses.

If you don't already own a B4 2/3" HD ENG lens, you're on a budget, and you need to buy one, they can be found for as little as $5.5k USD (18x without doubler). Adding in a RED B4 adaptor, the B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom option can be enabled for under $10k, including used lens and adapter.

I gather from your posts that you haven't discovered the new EFP/ENG for RED forum on RED User. Many of your B4 questions have already been answered on that forum by those with experience in B4 EFP/ENG work. Check it out...

[Jiri Bakala]

I gather from your posts that you haven't discovered the new EFP/ENG for RED forum on RED User. Many of your B4 questions have already been answered on that forum by those with experience in B4 EFP/ENG work. Check it out...

Ah...sorry about that, yeah, I will go to EFP/ENG.
Thanks.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey, AV! I'm just starting out with one HDD. Since it stores at least an hour of 4K REDCODE (has that changed--is it two hours now?), I typically don't shoot more than an hour in a day for my short film projects. Eventually, I'm sure I'll get two HDDs. Why are you getting the "deluxe" rail package? It's so much more pricey that the "basic" rail package.

I'm planning for the more expensive production pack, but that may change when individual accessory prices come to light. The extra handles, longer rods, 15mm rod adapter all figure in to that.

As for RED DRIVE, I'm getting two because I don't want to be stuck with just one. I too only shoot an hour or so per day when doing narrative work and short film projects. But I need longer if I'm shooting interviews, wildlife/outdoors, events, etc.. Having two is more record time, redundancy in case one fails or I don't have time to dump its contents. <edit> Also wanted to add that 4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps plus audio should be about 100GB per hour. So we should get about 3 hours of record time on a RED DRIVE.


Don't really understand the RAM storage options yet. Is the $500 flash RAM just so you can overcrank?

The FLASH and RED RAM options don't let us overcrank -- no recording options available with these vs. what we get from RED DRIVE (at least none announced). I want at least one FLASH option at my disposal for times where hard drive recording isn't ideal. Examples would be where the camera will be exposed to extreme temperatures - especially cold, vibrations (mounted to a car), anything moving fast with off-axis directional changes -- that wreaks havoc on fast-spinning hard drive platters, which are effectively gyroscopic discs spinning at 5400rpm.

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Alexis, when you are at it, could you buy me a $3k zoom too?
:-)

I've seen the occasional Angenieux at this price... I'm sure the minimum focus is something horrendous...

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm planning for the more expensive production pack, but that may change when individual accessory prices come to light. The extra handles, longer rods, 15mm rod adapter all figure in to that.
Hmm . . . I guess you get the "cage" right? I would only want the 15mm adapters, I guess. I'll probably buy the rails ala carte.


As for RED DRIVE, I'm getting two because I don't want to be stuck with just one. I too only shoot an hour or so per day when doing narrative work and short film projects. But I need longer if I'm shooting interviews, wildlife/outdoors, events, etc.. Having two is more record time, redundancy in case one fails or I don't have time to dump its contents. <edit> Also wanted to add that 4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps plus audio should be about 100GB per hour. So we should get about 3 hours of record time on a RED DRIVE.
Yeah, redundancy is all I would get the second one for. THREE HOURS??? That's GREAT! I didn't know that!


The FLASH and RED RAM options don't let us overcrank -- no recording options available with these vs. what we get from RED DRIVE (at least none announced). I want at least one FLASH option at my disposal for times where hard drive recording isn't ideal. Examples would be where the camera will be exposed to extreme temperatures - especially cold, vibrations (mounted to a car), anything moving fast with off-axis directional changes -- that wreaks havoc on fast-spinning hard drive platters, which are effectively gyroscopic discs spinning at 5400rpm.
So we get all that for only $500? I got sorta confused with all the RAM options. I certainly plan to do a lot of vehicle-mount shooting. I guess I'll throw that into my "minimum" package too. How long a record time would that hold?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So we get all that for only $500? I got sorta confused with all the RAM options. I certainly plan to do a lot of vehicle-mount shooting. I guess I'll throw that into my "minimum" package too. How long a record time would that hold?

Each FLASH option is $500 (except RED RAM), but the FLASH options don't include the media. The CF module probably makes a lot of sense for people getting their cameras within the next month or so as the media is commonly available. 16GB 30MB/s rated CF cards are about $270 right now. 8GB cards are about $100 for 25MB/s rated. Unfortunately, as has been mentioned here before, FLASH data transfer specs usually don't match up with what's advertised. No surprise there, neither do rates advertised for hard drives... Nothing new about that. We don't have all the details on the FLASH options yet, like we don't know how many CF cards the CF module will hold. I'm guessing it holds either 2 or 4 CF cards. But we should find out at NAB.

If you're planning a lot of vehicle mount shooting, a FLASH option seems like a good idea.

[Steve Gibby]

If you're planning a lot of vehicle mount shooting, a FLASH option seems like a good idea.

I totally agree - for any kind of action shot mount where vibration may be an issue. Shoot it to Flash, then dump it off to a laptop or drive, check it, and shoot some more. With those kind of shots you always end up checking the footage frequently anyway to make sure it recorded correctly, framing was good, etc.

[PaulClements]

Jeff do you have any links for "16GB 30MB/s rated CF cards are about $270"?

And am I right in saying a 16GB would give just under 10 minutes 4k?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Paul,

16GB should give you a bit less than 10 minutes (like 9.6min) of 4K @ 24fps... Yep.

As for links to cards, I just tried pulling up the one I was remembering (@ newegg.com). Card isn't showing so they either can't get them anymore or it's not in stock. I've got a price list from a local distributor I deal with for a lot of other components they have a 16GB CF listed as 180X|33MB/s for $298, but I don't have a brand or link I can share, I can call them on it to see what it is. The SanDisk Extreme III is rated at 20MB/s and sells for about $250. Their Extreme IV 16GB is due by April 1 and sports a 40MB/s rating. I would expect that one to be just under $300 from discount vendors. The 22MB/s QMemory 16GB CF card sells for about $235. Samsung is now shipping their 32Gbit NAND chip and vendors using it will be able to produce CF cards up to 64GB in size. So maybe by the end of the year we'll see those. I think 32GB CF cards are due from some vendors in the next month or two and they all have faster speeds with the shift to NAND tech.

It will be interesting to see what specs RED has for their various FLASH modules and what media they recommend at NAB time.

[Manfred Lopez]

Um, I thought I should go ahead and post the 100th post on this thread... After seeing the 99 I just couldn´t resist. :biggrin:


EDIT: I meant the 100th reply.

[Finner]

Samsung is now shipping their 32Gbit NAND chip and vendors using it will be able to produce CF cards up to 64GB in size. So maybe by the end of the year we'll see those. I think 32GB CF cards are due from some vendors in the next month or two and they all have faster speeds with the shift to NAND tech.

Jeff any clue what the rough projected price will be on the 32 and 64 versions.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff any clue what the rough projected price will be on the 32 and 64 versions.

Unfortunately, no... I would guess that the first 32GB CF's will be about $699 MSRP. And that's not much better than a wild-ass guess. The 16GB cards came out at about $720 MSRP 6 months ago. But they should be theoretically cheaper to produce than the 16GB CF cards since Samsung's 4GB NAND chips are cheaper than what most of the previous 1 & 2 GB FLASH chips introduced at. Cheaper because of their new Charge Trap Flash (CTF) architecture which makes them a lot simpler to make and they can produce it at 40nm with plans to scale down to 20nm.

[Chris Kenny]

Just as a data point... flash memory prices are expected to drop 65% in 2007 (http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=EZTXFA2LNEW00QSNDLPSK HSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=197003359).

As of right now, we're planning to shoot to drives initially, but we'll probably switch to flash for everything sometime next year.

[Steve Gibby]

Good call Chris...

We'll start with drives and Flash, depending on the genre/risk of each particular shooting session, but when Flash gets more affordable and has larger storage capacity, we'll switch to mostly Flash and RAM.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just as a data point... flash memory prices are expected to drop 65% in 2007 (http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=EZTXFA2LNEW00QSNDLPSK HSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=197003359).

Price drops should be at least that much, IMO. Afterall, that is a conservative estimate that should be filed under "Duh!". Prices on FLASH have dropped far more than 65% per year over the last 3 years and there are currently at least 15 companies I can think of off the top of my head that either announced or showed new NAND FLASH products at CES.


As of right now, we're planning to shoot to drives initially, but we'll probably switch to flash for everything sometime next year.

Same here. I think in the next two years most everyone will be shooting with FLASH on their RED in most situations. ...Unless they already own a bunch of RED DRIVEs and don't want to switch.

[PaulClements]

So what kind of price tag do you think we're looking at for a 64GB CF card a year from now? $500... more... less?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So what kind of price tag do you think we're looking at for a 64GB CF card a year from now? $500... more... less?

A year from now, a 32GB card will be a bulk commodity just like 8GB cards are now and 16GB cards will be in a few months. 64GB CF cards will be the cutting edge toward the end of this year, and once again I would count on $500 to $700 intro price and that price will fall off sharply as soon as production and demand equalize. At this time next year, I will be surprised if 64GB CF cards are not less than $300. OTOH, if people are slow to adopt the 32GB cards, then the 64GB cards will be slower to market and may not be released until this time next year. 32GB is a lot of storage and it's going to take a massive push toward home video camcorders and media players using the 32GB cards. People aren't going t buy them for their 6 megapixel digital camera that shoots JPEG images just so they can shoot 10,000 pictures before they have to offload it.

But I'm just guessing based on what the market has been doing and by what it looks like it will do.

[Chris Forbes]

Chris, I didn't say the a B4 zoom is better. I only listed the various lens options.

Now, as for the advantages, the biggest is its flexibility. I work mostly in the documentary genre and television and prime lenses wouldn't work for me. As I stated, the Red zoom is way too short, so the remaining options are either PL lenses or B4. I only googled 16mm zooms briefly a few weeks ago and found some used zooms around $6-10k. Of course, these are cinema style lenses that don't have the rocker/start-stop/etc. functions, which means that one can either use manual ring for focal length adjustments (which doesn't always work) or get a zoom controller.

BTW, I realize that I would be using only a portion of the sensor and getting lower resolution but for TV work 1080p will be around for a long time. As we all know, it's not really even implemented yet. For fiction work renting lenses is a better way to go anyway.

I didn't want to come across as critical at all. I am just trying to see the pros and cons of each. I agree that for alot of things the RED Zoom will be to short.

Will the Start stop function be enabled on a B4 lens? I understand the camera would have a power tap for zoom control but I didn't know about additional functions.

[Steve Gibby]

Will the Start stop function be enabled on a B4 lens? I understand the camera would have a power tap for zoom control but I didn't know about additional functions.

The power tap from RED One to B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms will power up the zoom servo rocker lever, and record/stop button on the servo. Power to the servo motor enables both of those functions.

[Jay A. Kelley]

The flash cards are very exciting. For me the minimum is 30min record time per mag. I need the card to be large enough to handle that much memory before I can shoot most projects with it. Then we would purchase 3 of them.
I plan to build a RAID 5 of not a large size and off-load cards to it while shooting.

Have you all noticed how, just as RED gets close to market all these memory systems are coming out just in the size we need and pricing going down fast. Our Red Boys really did their research didn't they?

I'm proud of you guys.

Jay