look at all those solid state options! [Archive]

Anders Holck

03-12-2007, 06:25 PM

My understanding:

Red Ram
Self contained 64 GB external Solid state red drive. Connects to the SATA connector. Is an external box like the normal HD drive unit.
$4500

RED Flash (CF) On Camera module
Standard compact flash module.
Is mounted on the left side of the camera body. Takes normal CF cards (High performance cards of course)
$500

RED 1.8" Sata Flash On Camera module
Is mounted on the left side of the camera body.
Takes Seagate 32GB 1.8" flash drives.
The mount alone is $500. 32 GB media is $1.500

Both modules that mounts on the left side of the camera is ONLY an option if you DON't order the RAW port option.

Jeff Kilgroe

03-12-2007, 06:28 PM

I think it's great, but I'm a bit puzzled over the number of choices. Don't get me wrong, it's cool as hell that there's CF, 1.8" SATA and EC options in addition to the RED RAM. But I'm surprised that RED didn't just pick one and run with it to start.

The CF kinda makes sense, but for long-term, I think the 1.8" or ExpressCard would be better as these devices will have larger capacities later this year vs. CF and will also tend to have overall better specs and lower cost per GB as time goes on... Theoretically, anyway.

At this point, I don't know what I would pick. Possibly the CF, but probably the ExpressCard solution.

thinkbug,

What we have here are a CF FLASH module that takes standard CompactFlash (CF) cards. Currently you can buy 8GB cards for about $100. We obviously don't have any specs yet, but I would bet the CF FLASH module takes 4 to 6 cards at once.

The ExpressCard module uses storage media in the form of an ExpressCard. This is the type of slot that replaces PCMCIA and is now available on the Macbook Pro systems as well as most high end PC notebooks these days. This could be a great option for those who will be toting a notebook computer in the field along with RED gear.

1.8" modules are FLASH in the form of 1.8" hard drives. Like what's used inside the iPod and many compact, sub-notebook computers or many consumer hard-drive based camcorders/palmcorders. This format has the potential to provide the best performance and capacity in the coming months or over the next year or so. However, to remove the 1.8" FLASH drive from the camera module and connect it directly to a PC/Mac, you will need an eSATA drive tray or something to put them in.

Dan Blanchett

03-12-2007, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the feedback. That clears up the configuration options. Seems like expensive options (per GB) unless you really need the advantages solid state offers. Would anyone recommend this over the 320 GB RED DRIVE for everyday narrative filmmaking?

LighthouseMEdia

03-12-2007, 06:56 PM

I wasn't even aware there was an express card flash media, anyone have any info on this format?

Hrvoje Simic

03-12-2007, 07:01 PM

SanDisk Extreme® IV CompactFlash® 8GB (up to 40MB/s)
Price: $269.99

Evin Grant

03-12-2007, 07:03 PM

Would anyone recommend this over the 320 GB RED DRIVE for everyday narrative filmmaking?

No, it's mostly for high vibration situations like car mounts and war zones where any moving drive will be a liability. It may also be possible to do a bit more overcranking to flash because of the higher transfer rates, but we don't know about that yet.

Hrvoje Simic

03-12-2007, 07:03 PM

I'm not familiar with ExpressCard storage pricing.
Anyone?

Anders Holck

03-12-2007, 07:05 PM

Here is one http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/13/hagiwara-sys-coms-8gb-expresscard-is-readyboost-certified/

Edit: Ok, they advertise the write speed as 22MB/S a bit low for Redcode RAW.

Alexander Nikishin

03-12-2007, 07:09 PM

It may also be possible to do a bit more overcranking to flash because of the higher transfer rates, but we don't know about that yet.

I'd easily fork over the $4,500 if the 64gb Red Ram gave you that option. I guess we'll have to wait 'till NAB to find out though.

Hrvoje Simic

03-12-2007, 07:09 PM

hmm...$450 makes Compact Flash a better buy then ExpressCard so far.
Or am I missing something...

Sanjin Jukic

03-12-2007, 07:19 PM

Wonderful!!! And just calculating the best affordable option in the middle of the night.

LighthouseMEdia

03-12-2007, 07:26 PM

yeah but man think about this guys we aren't locked into a tape drive mechanism. If one media format suddenly becomes cheaper a simple $500 module change and your good to go...to me that is groundbreaking!!!! I LOVE THE OPTIONS!!! No other system gives you that degree of flexibility.

fightordie

03-12-2007, 07:28 PM

No, it's mostly for high vibration situations like car mounts and war zones where any moving drive will be a liability. It may also be possible to do a bit more overcranking to flash because of the higher transfer rates, but we don't know about that yet.

Why wouldn't the compact flash be better for overall shooting. If its does come with 4 or more CF slots seems that would be the way to go. Its not exclusive to cold or vibrating environments. You can have a bunch and keep turning them over and safer than having the 320 giig hard drive crap out on you and lose all the days work. the CF thing is what I'm going to be paying attention to at NAB.

Evin Grant

03-12-2007, 07:34 PM

I'd easily fork over the $4,500 if the 64gb Red Ram gave you that option. I guess we'll have to wait 'till NAB to find out though.

It's purely a compression issue. It's very hard to do 4k compression, at the quality we want, in real time. To do 4k60 is currently out of reach.

Graeme

There it is.

Evin Grant

03-12-2007, 07:41 PM

Why wouldn't the compact flash be better for overall shooting. If its does come with 4 or more CF slots seems that would be the way to go. Its not exclusive to cold or vibrating environments. You can have a bunch and keep turning them over and safer than having the 320 giig hard drive crap out on you and lose all the days work. the CF thing is what I'm going to be paying attention to at NAB.

It's not a problem but it does limit you to needing a laptop and backup drives on location at all times. Bring two Red drives and you're set for even the most brutal of shooing schedules. If you're concerned about reliability then alternately back up your shots from the Red drive between set ups. That way you spread your risk over two Reddrives and have a redundant back up, one on the Red drive and one on your back up. It's just as much downloading as the CF cards without the shorter record times.

That being said I'm getting both.

Michael Hastings

03-12-2007, 07:45 PM

Evin:

I fully understand the concept of the 64GB Red Ram as it is essentially a solid state version of the hard drive, presumably roughly the same size. I was wondering how the CF cards and such work in practical application - for a situation like Sky diving where you are only looking to get a couple minutes of recording but really want the ability to strip the camera all the way down. Specifically, can they handle the data rate? Are the slots on the main body itself so we can actually have 128 GB on board with no extra cables, drive cases, etc.

Also, how long is the supplied cable with the LCD screen. Can we get a connector spec: Tajimi multipin, mini BNC... ?

No, it's mostly for high vibration situations like car mounts and war zones where any moving drive will be a liability. It may also be possible to do a bit more overcranking to flash because of the higher transfer rates, but we don't know about that yet.

Craig Schober

03-12-2007, 07:47 PM

Why wouldn't the compact flash be better for overall shooting. If its does come with 4 or more CF slots seems that would be the way to go. Its not exclusive to cold or vibrating environments. You can have a bunch and keep turning them over and safer than having the 320 giig hard drive crap out on you and lose all the days work. the CF thing is what I'm going to be paying attention to at NAB.

i'm assuming a raid 0 configuration if it houses 2 or 4 cards. in that case you wouldn't be able to swap out cards individually and one bad card could ruin a lot of footage. unless fast and expensive cards could keep up with redcode raw. maybe 40mb/sec x 4 8gb cards. now your looking at $1000 for 32gb of flash media with some safety too.

Alexander Nikishin

03-12-2007, 07:49 PM

Evin:

Also, how long is the supplied cable with the LCD screen. Can we get a connector spec: Tajimi multipin, mini BNC... ?

RED LCD Screen $1,700Includes:
RED ARM adjustable arm
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 3ft
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft

Evin Grant

03-12-2007, 07:49 PM

Evin:

I fully understand the concept of the 64GB Red Ram as it is essentially a solid state version of the hard drive, presumably roughly the same size. I was wondering how the CF cards and such work in practical application - for a situation like Sky diving where you are only looking to get a couple minutes of recording but really want the ability to strip the camera all the way down. Specifically, can they handle the data rate? Are the slots on the main body itself so we can actually have 128 GB on board with no extra cables, drive cases, etc.

Also, how long is the supplied cable with the LCD screen. Can we get a connector spec: Tajimi multipin, mini BNC... ?

I don't have all those details, but an 8GB CF card will give you just under 5 min of recording at 4K Redcode RAW. That should be plenty even if it only holds one.

fightordie

03-12-2007, 08:02 PM

It's not a problem but it does limit you to needing a laptop and backup drives on location at all times. Bring two Red drives and you're set for even the most brutal of shooing schedules. If you're concerned about reliability then alternately back up your shots from the Red drive between set ups. That way you spread your risk over two Reddrives and have a redundant back up, one on the Red drive and one on your back up. It's just as much downloading as the CF cards without the shorter record times.

That being said I'm getting both.

Then the drive method you mentioned would also make you bring a laptop to transfer from one drive to another too. No? I couldn't trust 320 gigs of hard drive info without backing it up. But i do trust CF. And 2 drives is $1800. 8 gig series IV CF cards can be gotten for around $214 each with lower prices and rebates always coming and they are the top end CF cards maybe lesser cards which are cheaper can be used too. $1712.00 for 64gigs. still more expensive but doable. So if mount hopefully can hold 4 cards you keep turning over 32gig.

Also is there any document that has the recording specs with the amount of space needed for all of REDs shooting formats anywhere? I'd like to know what frame rates in 2k and 4k redcode raw will get with 32gig CF.

Evin Grant

03-12-2007, 08:10 PM

Same frame rates as with the Red Drive. 27.5MB per second (24FPS) in 4K Redcode Raw. Factor 1/4 that for 2K Redcode RAW and about 18.15MBs for 1080 RGB and 1/2 that for 720 RGB. I think my math is right on this.

david farland

03-12-2007, 08:22 PM

fightordie

03-12-2007, 08:24 PM

I found this from the great Mike Curtis if anyone is interested on data rates and capacity needed.

http://web.mac.com/mikedcurtis/iWeb/HD4NDs_Image_Galleries/RedcodeRates.html

fightordie

03-12-2007, 08:34 PM

Here's a thought,

What if you bought the RED DRIVE & one of the RED FLASH options and were able to copy your flash data over to the RED DRIVE (configured as Raid 1).

You'd only mount the REDDRIVE when backing up and you'd get rid of that nasty 3rd party PC/laptop and sell more RED kit.

DF

Excellent idea. If that were possible that would be the way I would go. If it can do an auto backup between setups of CF cards to red drive then no laptop needed. Lowers weight and battery usage too.

Michael Ragen

03-12-2007, 09:08 PM

I posted about this earlier: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=882

They are listening. As always.

fightordie

03-12-2007, 09:31 PM

We're on the same page deadmike. I build my own rigs like body vest cams , bike/car rigs and and want the security and weight reduction of flash.

Lets hope Stuart took your suggestion and is trying to implement that option. The redrive could also then be a a drive to shoot directly to or a backup solution for quick in the field transfers. I really like this option.

LighthouseMEdia

03-12-2007, 09:41 PM

Here's a thought,

What if you bought the RED DRIVE & one of the RED FLASH options and were able to copy your flash data over to the RED DRIVE (configured as Raid 1).

You'd only mount the REDDRIVE when backing up and you'd get rid of that nasty 3rd party PC/laptop and sell more RED kit.

DF

STELLAR IDEA!!!!!! How about it Red team is this an option, that would be simply incredible. One button offload and verify from one of the numerous flash modules directly to the Red Raid.

damonbots

03-12-2007, 10:00 PM

Brilliant, David!

fightordie

03-12-2007, 10:08 PM

com'on give deadmike a hand too. he got the idea posted and Stuarts attention first.

tj williams

03-12-2007, 11:05 PM

Forgive if this is a totally stupid question but with CF cards in the body would it be possible to simultaneously record to both the hard drive and CF? Some shots are short but totally do or die...

Jeff Kilgroe

03-12-2007, 11:10 PM

SanDisk Extreme® IV CompactFlash® 8GB (up to 40MB/s)
Price: $269.99

There's currently a $20 rebate from Sandisk too. Oh, and B&H has it for $209 before the rebate. Newegg had them cheaper than that about 10 days ago, but not showing them in stock now....

Jeff Kilgroe

03-12-2007, 11:12 PM

hmm...$450 makes Compact Flash a better buy then ExpressCard so far.
Or am I missing something...

You're not missing anything... Yet. The ExpressCard FLASH devices are just hitting the market now. So give some time for prices to drop. Sandisk, Transcend and others showed ExpressCard FLASH "drives" with 64 and 128 GB capaciteis at CES. The 128GB is supposed to be available around the end of this year or in January '08 and priced cheaper than the 32GB cards hitting stores now.

damonbots

03-12-2007, 11:25 PM

com'on give deadmike a hand too. he got the idea posted and Stuarts attention first.

I'm sorry, deadmike! Glanced right over your post. Data overload tonight! Good thinking!

damonbots

03-12-2007, 11:33 PM

128G Expresscard?? Holy snikes!

Jeff Kilgroe

03-13-2007, 12:11 AM

FLASH is increasing in speed and capacity on a daily basis. It's rather insane right now. IMO, the RED RAM device (RED DRIVE based on FLASH) is going to be the recording magazine of choice for a lot of people, especially as prices plummet over the next year or so.

As for the 128GB ExpressCard, I remembered incorrectly... It's supposed to be a 64GB ExpressCard at the end of this year and 128GB for 1.8" HD form factors. Sandisk is shipping This 32GB Drive (http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/04/ces2007_sandisk_32gb_ssd/) right now and Samsung also has a shipping unit at 32GB. These are 1.8" units and they're claiming a 4X increase in capacity by the end of next year. I have no doubt the capacity will quadruple, but I'm curious about the price. It will plummet to lower than current prices (even at 4x capacity) if people buy enough of them. 32GB ExpressCards were shown at CES and should be shipping soon.

Michael Schrengohst

03-13-2007, 12:22 AM

Wow, all of this makes you think twice about P2???

Jeff Kilgroe

03-13-2007, 12:25 AM

Wow, all of this makes you think twice about P2???

...The only thoughts I still have regarding P2 is where can I find someone who'll buy them from me.

Alexander Nikishin

03-13-2007, 12:29 AM

...The only thoughts I still have regarding P2 is where can I find someone who'll buy them from me.

They work great as paper weights. :wink:

Rodrigo Lizana

03-13-2007, 12:44 AM

IMO, the RED RAM device (RED DRIVE based on FLASH) is going to be the recording magazine of choice for a lot of people, especially as prices plummet over the next year or so.

If Red Ram (RED DRIVE based on FLASH) is going to be upgradable (removing old cards and put new and bigger ones) then I would be thinking on two Red Ram for shooting and a number of Red Drives to download the footage on field or after the day.

Robert Jackson

03-13-2007, 01:18 AM

If Red Ram (RED DRIVE based on FLASH) is going to be upgradable (removing old cards and put new and bigger ones) then I would be thinking on two Red Ram for shooting and a number of Red Drives to download the footage on field or after the day.

Well, a nice portable RAID 1 solution would be my choice for storing the data in the field. It's not very efficient, but rebuilding after a failure in RAID 5 arrays is a royal PITA.

Of course, you can always burn multiple optical discs of the data at the end of the day. Something like a dual-layer Blu-Ray burner would be a decent way to back up "mags" in the field.

I just finished a project (today, actually) that ended up taking 1.2 terabytes of storage in 720p24 files. I own a Mac Pro. My drive solution is to have the software on the primary internal disc. I have a second disc that's just used as a scratch disc by the programs. Then I have a pair of 750 gig drives in a RAID O array. That's all the drive bays on my Mac Pro. I have a 1.5 terabyte Fantom Drives G-Force Mega-Disk that I back up each file to as I'm working on it. It's a pain, but the failure rate running a RAID 0 array is twice that of the drives you're using (since either one failing takes down the array). Over the last 4 months of post the only drive I've lost was my scratch disc, which kind of surprised me. I'd expected the RAID to go if anything was going to go.

Working with 4K is going to be a lot more taxing. I'll be really interested to hear how the first Red test pilots handle their workflow. Of course, RedCode is pretty efficient. It sure won't be like the workflow of people using a Viper.

It's an interesting time to be doing this stuff. I'll be psyched to see some test results and user reports from the first people who get their Red Ones.