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Arnaud Paris
02-19-2008, 05:19 PM
Laguun;
How do you handle the R3D files in DVS Clipster?
Do you have to output first all your footage to DPX 4K through RedCine?

laguun
02-19-2008, 05:39 PM
Laguun;
How do you handle the R3D files in DVS Clipster?
Do you have to output first all your footage to DPX 4K through RedCine?

yes, decompressing is -before- finishing in that workflow, and with prices at <0.20 per gigabyte on a 4K capable raid even 4K uncompressed is not challenging budgets.

for us thats pretty useful, as everyone on their 3d systems as maya/3ds max/xsi, their vfx systems as after effects/combustion/fusion/nuke/shake/flint/flame/inferno/quantel, their authoring systems as encore/studio pro/flash/compressor/media cleaner/procoder, their etc etc can access the files. donīt forget, if you are working in R3D you have to render (aka debayer) at the end which can considerably slow down things.

if you rather do shortforms, donīt need larger workgroups however, decompressing at the end of the pipeline has also big advantages.

btw - we didnīt buy a clipster yet - there are too many friends/partner who have one here, but i am tempted everytime we use it. Inhouse we use speedgrade, discreet and also adobe cs3, together with avid and fcs.

Aiden Cornwell
02-19-2008, 05:42 PM
The companies position was "no" so far. On OSX there would be iridas speedgrade as system, which also supports cineform - but no system on OSX can use the NVIDIA HD-SDI yet.

Curious what does speedgrade offer that Apple's color does not?

Arnaud Paris
02-19-2008, 05:56 PM
yes, decompressing is -before- finishing in that workflow, and with prices at <0.20 per gigabyte on a 4K capable raid even 4K uncompressed is not challenging budgets.


I understand that the storage price might not be so much of an issue but what about the processing time? Let's say you get a high end TV series shot on Red, how do you handle the fast pace conforming/grading from R3D files on anything else but Scratch?

From what I've seen, most of the footage shot on Red needs some kind of one light pass before actually going to the edit room (similarly way to what happens with film) and this has to be done on pretty much all the material shot.

Scratch gives you the possibility to do so without any transcoding and to output realtime to HD-SDI, ready to go to editing pipeline with accurate TC. So how would you approach this one pass on Iridas or Clipster before editing?

laguun
02-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Curious what does speedgrade offer that Apple's color does not?

lets start with yuv and rgb support, on set and on camera look files, native support for any raw camera manufacturer (arri, phantom, si etc) which doesnīt lock its files, native crossplatform support, cineform codec native, realtime 2K... and finally that it can handle 4K, the reds resolution. color is limited 2k, which 75% less resolution than red records.

... and what is much more intersting to us is that it doesnīt tamper with the footage integrity. have a look here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2825

p.s.
editet to add 4k support :)

laguun
02-19-2008, 06:05 PM
I understand that the storage price might not be so much of an issue but what about the processing time? Let's say you get a high end TV series shot on Red, how do you handle the fast pace conforming/grading from R3D files on anything else but Scratch?

the 64 cpus munch through the footage at 4k faster than we can handle it. cost are extremly low as well there, 150 a core cpu atm:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=158508&postcount=67

in fact 4k uncompressed is not to challening if you invest ~10.000-12000 in 50-80 cpus and another ~10.000-12000 for a 50-60 Terrabyte Storage.

Arnaud Paris
02-19-2008, 06:16 PM
in fact 4k uncompressed is not to challening if you invest ~10.000-12000 in 50-80 cpus and another ~10.000-12000 for a 50-60 Terrabyte Storage.

I had a talk with the supervisor of a major post house in Paris lately who was saying to beware of going the uncompressed route for features, especially in 4K.

I think you're far from reality when you mention 50T of storage for uncompressed 4K in regards to let's say a 100mn feature project...

I understand what you mean by saying that the technology to handle this massive amount of data is now available and much more affordable than before. But the reality is that there is an exponential risk scale in regards to this processing power and storage amount.

All this to say that right now I believe you'll be much safer with a 20T R3D file project handled on Scratch than with a 200T uncompressed 4K DPX file project handled on Clipster or others.

stipan
02-19-2008, 06:16 PM
Laguun,

So do you bake in the Kelvin/tint ect out of Redcine? i.e. retain the original settings?

laguun
02-19-2008, 06:25 PM
I had a talk with the supervisor of a major post house in Paris lately who was saying to beware of going the uncompressed route for features, especially in 4K.

And we recommend and offer uncompressed 4K routes for features, and the first one will probably released to the audience this year. So do many other houeses, and there are several 4K finished projects - also originated on film - starting 2005.



I think you're far from reality when you mention 50T of storage in regards to let's say a 100mn feature project...
If you need more then 10-20 hours footage for 1.4 hours project, just add another 50 Terras and you handle 20-40 hours etc.

If you want smaller files and use it on a full pipeline, you can also use cineform, and have 100s of hours on such raids - and even use gigabit ethernet.

And finally, we still use the conservative classic approach and dont "develop" all takes of a shot in 4K.

laguun
02-19-2008, 06:31 PM
Laguun,

So do you bake in the Kelvin/tint ect out of Redcine? i.e. retain the original settings?

That indeed is still an open question - we didnt come to a final conclusion what is the ideal workflow there yet. first, we dont want redcine but redline as main processing tool, as redline (or r3d2dpx) is easier to handle (and much faster) than redcine. On the other hand, dailies often should get basic cc, which we would like to have earlier in the pipeline and not on the output to hdcam for the offlines. But adding clipster there as realtime basic cc seems a little bit exaggerated, sort of using the spaceshuttle to fly for a short shopping in the supermarket.

Besides the productions right now we will not freeze that decision before NAB, when red unlocks its files to the industry we will decide what will be the best route for us.

Arnaud Paris
02-19-2008, 06:37 PM
1.4 hours project, yes most of the time you would need more than 10-20 hours footage.

I don't know the exact figures but I think the average editing ratio for features in the industry is at least 1:25.

So the 1.4 hours project easily goes above 35 hours footage.

But I totally respect your take on the uncompressed finishing world. I'm not here to make you change your mind. It's obviously part of the future.

I just don't think every project can or has interest going that way right now, which leaves room for products like Scratch and the R3D workflow.

laguun
02-19-2008, 06:51 PM
1.4 hours project, yes most of the time you would need more than 10-20 hours footage.

I don't know the exact figures but I think the average editing ratio for features in the industry is at least 1:25.

we aim at online 1:5-10 for the selected shots, offline (2K or 1080p) 1:xx for the rest.



So the 1.4 hours project easily goes above 35 hours footage.

If you shoot above 1:25 and decompress everything, yes. In A-Budgets that might be interesting. For our mid-budgets the "donīt copy" shots remain on 2K/1080p.



But I totally respect your take on the uncompressed finishing world. I'm not here to make you change your mind. It's obviously part of the future.
I just don't think every project can or has interest going that way right now, which leaves room for products like Scratch and the R3D workflow.
100% agree, and native raw workflows have also big advantages - i wasn't condemning that at all. What i miss in reds raw workflow right now is a) 4K realtime, b) real TC support throughout a open pipeline, c) choice of manufacturer, d) networked support for workgroups, e) single seat finishing and f) streamlined and quick pipelines with max quality. All this will change, but the FCS/scratch combo which is cool, still is a double workaround in my opinion. What we would buy at once would be a 4k capable realtime uncompressed finishing system which would switch back to raw for offlines and allow networked access. Clipster/Baselight are pretty close to that, however they still lacks redcode support as red wants so and editing in the case of filmlights products, the pcs with nvidia cards as scratch/speedgrade/mystika/chrome etc arenīt powerful enough yet to deliver 4k and realtime, so its a choice of the specific disadvantages no matter what system one will use.

Anyhow, within the next 24/36 months even regular desktop pcs loaded with Adobe CS X will shuffle through several 4K capable codecs in a way we can only hope for today and our issues in 2008 will look like, well, like what they are - teething problems.