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View Full Version : How NOT to compete with RED CAM



killfilm
02-21-2008, 06:17 PM
I thought this could be a beneficial thread. Jim clearly stated that the scarlet will NOT compete or replace Red. SO, lets share some ideas how scarlet can be awesome without competing with the RED cam.

My idea:

-Max 2k possibly with the option of upgrading
-fixed lens
-Not as much as FPS as the Red
-Same sensor as red though for that DOF

anyone else, lets make it constructive.

Cory Mitchell
02-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the discussion, but I don't think trying to come up with ways the Scarlet won't compete with Red isn't forward thinking.

I think rather their idea is to make the best camera they can (and will) given certain specifications, whether it be it's size or it's price point, or whatever.

It seems that when it was established that Scarlet would not compete with Red it was establishing the targeted market, not the criteria by which they are making the camera.

Either way, I'm very interested to eventually find out exactly the Red Team have planned for Scarlet.

Eugene
02-22-2008, 11:13 AM
I thought this could be a beneficial thread.

Your thinking is like that of the other major brands. They think of how to handicap something they already have.
Red must think of the end user and design what they want. First identify who the enduser is.
Lets say the end user is the Paparazzi. They need somthing small and light that they can run around with. Something that doesn't call too much attention to themselves and has a 10x or 20x zoom. They don't have time to change lenses either. They don't need anything more than 2k. Also they need AF and OIS. If they don't have AF, the camera is worthless to them. It also has to be cheap enough that if a celeb or body guard smashes their camera, they can afford to go out the next day and buy a new one.

What type of end user are you?
I am just a guy that wants to film monkeys in trees. Fixed lenses are not for me. A 500mm f2.8 lens is too big and too expensive. I'll sacrafice resolution for size and price.

simonfilm
02-22-2008, 12:47 PM
Your thinking is like that of the other major brands. They think of how to handicap something they already have.
Red must think of the end user and design what they want. First identify who the enduser is.
Lets say the end user is the Paparazzi. They need somthing small and light that they can run around with. Something that doesn't call too much attention to themselves and has a 10x or 20x zoom. They don't have time to change lenses either. They don't need anything more than 2k. Also they need AF and OIS. If they don't have AF, the camera is worthless to them. It also has to be cheap enough that if a celeb or body guard smashes their camera, they can afford to go out the next day and buy a new one.

What type of end user are you?
I am just a guy that wants to film monkeys in trees. Fixed lenses are not for me. A 500mm f2.8 lens is too big and too expensive. I'll sacrafice resolution for size and price.

Buy a HV20 or something even smaller. Paparazzi dont need Scarlet...

J. Bernard Vallon
02-22-2008, 02:54 PM
Your thinking is like that of the other major brands. They think of how to handicap something they already have.
Red must think of the end user and design what they want. First identify who the enduser is.


I think this is good thinking.

I imagined scarlet as a super crash cam. Not something cheep (necessarily) that could be replaced, but something that is INDESTRUCTIBLE. Totally solid state, small, can be placed anywhere. Interchangeable lenses, maybe nikons or something, that can be replaced for cheep when they're destroyed during the landing.

After you pull Scarlet off the front of the helmet, take off the shattered remains of the $400 nikon lens, open up the side, there is your menu and CF card waiting to be unloaded, perfectly unscathed. That to me would open some filmmaking doors.

Paolo Tinari
02-22-2008, 04:15 PM
I think this is good thinking.

I imagined scarlet as a super crash cam. Not something cheep (necessarily) that could be replaced, but something that is INDESTRUCTIBLE. Totally solid state, small, can be placed anywhere. Interchangeable lenses, maybe nikons or something, that can be replaced for cheep when they're destroyed during the landing.

After you pull Scarlet off the front of the helmet, take off the shattered remains of the $400 nikon lens, open up the side, there is your menu and CF card waiting to be unloaded, perfectly unscathed. That to me would open some filmmaking doors.

I like that! Something fresh finally

killfilm
02-22-2008, 04:49 PM
i forgot about the Red users who would reply to this thread, of course they wouldn't want something too good, that way they can feel they have something better.

CŁneyt Kaya
02-22-2008, 04:51 PM
i forgot about the Red users who would reply to this thread, of course they wouldn't want something too good, that way they can feel they have something better.

the redusers will have the right to buy scarlet first.

J. Bernard Vallon
02-22-2008, 08:33 PM
i forgot about the Red users who would reply to this thread, of course they wouldn't want something too good, that way they can feel they have something better.

Look, more power to the new scarlet, whatever she turns out to be. I hope she's awesome, so i can buy one. But she isn't going to the same as—and definitely not better than—a red one. This company is A), loyal to the people who have been supportive and patient from the beginning, and B), not stupid enough to make their flagship product obsolete less than a year after its debut.

That said, Killfilm, i hope you buy a scarlet and make great footage with her.

Edit: i shouldn't sound so snide, i do notice Killfilm that you STARTED this thread about how to keep the cameras from competing.

killfilm
02-22-2008, 09:16 PM
Look, more power to the new scarlet, whatever she turns out to be. I hope she's awesome, so i can buy one. But she isn't going to the same as—and definitely not better than—a red one. This company is A), loyal to the people who have been supportive and patient from the beginning, and B), not stupid enough to make their flagship product obsolete less than a year after its debut.

That said, Killfilm, i hope you buy a scarlet and make great footage with her.

Edit: i shouldn't sound so snide, i do notice Killfilm that you STARTED this thread about how to keep the cameras from competing.

Nope, How NOT to compete if you read it. Listen, i would like scarlet to be 4k and interchangable lenses etc. etc. But im trying to be realistic as im also a businessman. Who in the right mind would make something to compete with his/her own product?

But, what iam saying is that Scarlet could be a killer cam WITHOUT competing with the Red. Of course you gotta keep the Red users happy but it dont mean you cut all the pro features on scarlet, maybe just some features. This will make scarlet's market happy and the Red users happy, yes you can please both.

Also remember, there are 1080p camera out there. Now we are seeing 2k cameras coming out slowly.
SO, Yes Scarlet has to be Awesome!! but not as awesome as a red one...just awesome not stellar:)

Joseph Hutson
02-22-2008, 09:31 PM
Nope, How NOT to compete if you read it. Listen, i would like scarlet to be 4k and interchangable lenses etc. etc. But im trying to be realistic as im also a businessman. Who in the right mind would make something to compete with his/her own product?

But, what iam saying is that Scarlet could be a killer cam WITHOUT competing with the Red. Of course you gotta keep the Red users happy but it dont mean you cut all the pro features on scarlet, maybe just some features. This will make scarlet's market happy and the Red users happy, yes you can please both.

Also remember, there are 1080p camera out there. Now we are seeing 2k cameras coming out slowly.
SO, Yes Scarlet has to be Awesome!! but not as awesome as a red one...just awesome not stellar:)


Congratulations on your 100th post on REDUSER.com :-)

killfilm
02-22-2008, 09:36 PM
Hey ya, 100th post=free scarlet

Luis de la Cerda
02-23-2008, 01:09 AM
I don't agree with all that thinking that scarlet's features should be kept below red one's to avoid competition. This kind of thinking is what has damaged detroit's auto manufacturers. If scarlet does indeed compete with red one, then perhaps red one is not competitive enough. The Red Company must understand scarlet's market and focus all their efforts on making the camera the best camera on the planet that meets the criteria for it's target audience. (price, size, ease of use, workflow, flexibility) I do think there's a market for both products, even if they share most characteristics technologically speaking (4K, latitude, frame rate, sensor size, etc...) without them competing with eachother, the same way there's a market for minivans and SUV's to coexist. There may be some market overlap between both products, but this is unavoidable. Why do you think there is a market for different size Arri 35mm cameras if you can get the same quality out of both?

Anyway, this is what I think. My .02

killfilm
02-23-2008, 06:24 AM
I don't agree with all that thinking that scarlet's features should be kept below red one's to avoid competition. This kind of thinking is what has damaged detroit's auto manufacturers. If scarlet does indeed compete with red one, then perhaps red one is not competitive enough. The Red Company must understand scarlet's market and focus all their efforts on making the camera the best camera on the planet that meets the criteria for it's target audience. (price, size, ease of use, workflow, flexibility) I do think there's a market for both products, even if they share most characteristics technologically speaking (4K, latitude, frame rate, sensor size, etc...) without them competing with eachother, the same way there's a market for minivans and SUV's to coexist. There may be some market overlap between both products, but this is unavoidable. Why do you think there is a market for different size Arri 35mm cameras if you can get the same quality out of both?

Anyway, this is what I think. My .02

Great minds think alike. Scarlet shall be awesome with her own market.
Lets take the panasonic varicam and the HVX, both have their own markets,
you can easily intercut between the two. They are not the same size, one is a full sized production cam while the other is more like a mini cam, allowing those impossible shots. The HVX has VFR, 720P just like the big brother. Both have DVC PRO HD and Cinegamma, and film cam features.

Red and Scarlet should be the same idea, both are high res, high latitude cameras and can intercut well together. Both should have most if not all the features. Just maybe for different uses.

If this is the idea, scarlet will be succesful.

Look 1st
02-23-2008, 09:20 AM
Lets take the panasonic varicam and the HVX, both have their own markets,
you can easily intercut between the two. They are not the same size, one is a full sized production cam while the other is more like a mini cam, allowing those impossible shots. The HVX has VFR, 720P just like the big brother. Both have DVC PRO HD and Cinegamma, and film cam features.


That is a great analogy, and somewhat how I was thinking the Scarlet would fit into place.

J. Bernard Vallon
02-24-2008, 06:19 AM
but remember guys, compared to the Varicam the HVX isn't so great. Its virtues are its price and portability. Much lower framerates, much lower DR, much worse in low light, etc.

My original point was if RED produced an amazing camera that was 1/4 as good as the RED One for 1/4 the price, people would somehow be disappointed. I still think that might be true.

killfilm
02-24-2008, 06:38 AM
the market is pretty hot right now, and come NAB and the choices will get bigger. We're cheering for Scarlet as the cam to cut through the clutter.
Dont dissapoint please.

Paolo Tinari
02-24-2008, 09:33 AM
i forgot about the Red users who would reply to this thread, of course they wouldn't want something too good, that way they can feel they have something better.
That's stupid

Aiden Cornwell
02-24-2008, 10:27 AM
Not sure why anyone who can not afford a Redone wants Scarlet to be 4k. TO me it seems overkill. A 2k camera is more then enough for what this camera could be. I also look at the fact they have Nikon mounts first for the Red One. This leads me to believe that scarlet might take on a system of Nikon DX mounted lenes.

As for competing with Red One Jim has stated many times it will not compete with Red One. So I don't understand why people still think it will.

What I expect is the Scarlet body to come in probably around 2k and then much like the Red One everything will add up on accessories. One will need to buy a battery pack, lens, cf cards, red drives, mounting devices, ect. When it all is said and done look for a package to be around 3500-4000. I could be way off on the price points but I do think Red will stick with the model of the base camera body being inexpensive and customizable depending on ones needs.

planet e
02-24-2008, 11:03 AM
That's stupid

...not to mention senseless.

a B camera that can be used in small, tight, or fast situations and intercut perfectly with an exisitng RED camera would be outstanding.

killfilm
02-25-2008, 04:12 PM
That's stupid

it does explain why so many red users want scarlet nothing close to 4k.

Mike Bozulich
02-25-2008, 08:48 PM
What I expect is the Scarlet body to come in probably around 2k and then much like the Red One everything will add up on accessories. One will need to buy a battery pack, lens, cf cards, red drives, mounting devices, ect. When it all is said and done look for a package to be around 3500-4000. I could be way off on the price points but I do think Red will stick with the model of the base camera body being inexpensive and customizable depending on ones needs.

I think your price point may be a little low, but the idea is spot on. To be able to build a mini cam to one's own specs would be simply awesome. And it would set the Scarlet apart from the other offerings in it's price range.

killfilm
02-25-2008, 09:14 PM
agreed, scarlet should be customizable which makes it unique.
But, lets not just sell the body and have to spend another 3-4 thousand dollars to have a complete camera, unless the body will be cheap in price.

Mike Bozulich
02-25-2008, 10:42 PM
agreed, scarlet should be customizable which makes it unique.
But, lets not just sell the body and have to spend another 3-4 thousand dollars to have a complete camera, unless the body will be cheap in price.

Yeah, cheaper would be better. I still get the feeling it will be $5000+ Of course I have nothing to base that on. LOL Damn you Scarlet! Reveal your secrets to me! :)