Favorite FLASH MEDIA

[Emanuel A.]

Since the module's price is the same ($500) and taking the Flash route as well (beyond the RED DRIVE that is the most popular option among all of us, I believe), what's your 2nd best option?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm not sure how to vote on this one just yet. ExpressCard and 1.8" SATA formats are just emerging on the market right now. I would think that the 1.8" SATA format holds the most promise for capacity over time. ExpressCard and SATA (assuming 300MBs SATA-II) are nearly identical in max transfer rate and with notebookd computers all shipping (or at least all the high-end ones) with ExpressCard slots, thats a strong argument for that format.

In the end, I don't know which is the best way to go and I'm glad I don't have to make my decision for a couple months. But if I had to choose today to shoot with the camera tomorrow, I would choose the CF unit. Only for the reason that media is commonly available.

[Curran Giddens]

I am going to skip the flash options and go for the RAW port unless Red decides not to make the RED-RAID. I can't spend $100k+ on some third-party DDR just to get 4k 60fps and 2k 120fps.

[Roberto B]

it would be interesting to view poll results but specially from the red team guys..

[Emanuel A.]

Confirming CF as first option nowadays seems natural. My only doubt is why RED 1.8" SATA Flash has the double votes of the RED "EXPRESS CARD" FLASH?

Any thoughts there? Especially from those who voted adding their belief there.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Theoretically, ExpressCard FLASH is going to be more expensive per GB and won't pack as many GB either. 1.8" HDD style is a bit larger form factor. But I think a lot of this will be determined by what consumers buy the most of, or at least prices will be. But I still bet the 1.8" drive form factor will be the dominant form. After all, it will be used inside everything from compact camcorders, to iPods and other media players, PDAs, etc..

[Jannard]

I'm going to shoot REDCODE RAW to the RED RAM SATA 64GD drive. The world would end as we know it if we can figure out how to up the frame rate any with this setup. Not saying... just hoping someday.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Hey Jim, what about dual recording? Such as recording to Red Drive and Red Flash or Red Drive and Red Ram at the same time? The purpose would be to give the client the Red Drive as tangible backup and then me use the Red Flash (or Ram) to edit from.

[Emanuel A.]

This would be a great idea!

[Jannard]

We are working on it... not saying it will be done! I have to be careful here. If I say we are working on it and don't get it done by the time cameras are delivered, I don't want to hear any crap! :-)

[Emanuel A.]

Good news! :-)

[Don King]

I've noticed that Graeme Nattress and Jim Jannard gave their vote to the RED 1.8" SATA Flash option... and there are two options related to this at the price list. Why? What's the difference?

[Jannard]

My 1st choice is not listed... 64GB RED RAM. The 1.8" will not be ready for a few months, but when it is it will be my 2nd choice (and 1st on-camera choice).

One is the housing and the other is media.

Jim

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Jim,
Did you read my idea about higher FPS?
Perhaps that's your way to make the world end right now;)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=820

[Damien Molineaux]

My 1st choice is not listed... 64GB RED RAM. The 1.8" will not be ready for a few months, but when it is it will be my 2nd choice (and 1st on-camera choice).

One is the housing and the other is media.

Jim

Sandisk has just announced the availability of a 1.8" SATA 32 GB drive at $350 as an OEM product (ie. not available individually). See here :
http://www.sandisk.com/Oem/Default.aspx?CatID=1478

Seems like a good way to go.

I found the info on Macbidouille.com (the french, and original, version of Hardmac).

edit : $350 is for the 2.5" version, I don't know the price of 1.8"

Cheers,
Damien

[Damien Molineaux]

I'm going to shoot REDCODE RAW to the RED RAM SATA 64GD drive. The world would end as we know it if we can figure out how to up the frame rate any with this setup. Not saying... just hoping someday.

Jim

Couldn't you stick four 1.8" drives in a RED RAM SATA drive, at 32GB per drive you would get 128GB and in RAID you would have 180 MB/s write speed (theoretically)? I'm also hoping!

Cheers,
Damien

[Antoine Baumann]

Damien,

I think these UATA drive have already been discussed, and it is not fast enough.

BTW, hope to see soon in Geneva....

antoine.

[Hrvoje Simic]

At this moment it's hard to decide. CF (type IV) seems ok as it's available now and affordable, but 8 gigs are not enough. I've had too much crap with media and I really don't need card swapping every 4-5 minutes of footage (and all that goes with it).

RED RAM would be my first choice, but I can't afford it right now. It will be interesting to see the 1.8 SATA prices when this option becomes available.

Also, I wonder how long will it take for the 32GB CF's to come out. I just love the thought of small, reliable and resistant recording media, and carrying your shoot in your inner pocket...

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I'm going to shoot REDCODE RAW to the RED RAM SATA 64GD drive. The world would end as we know it if we can figure out how to up the frame rate any with this setup. Not saying... just hoping someday.

Jim

Absolutely the best joice for me eather. When I need a shaky action camera I trust more to this gadget, than to a REDdrive. I will have bouth.

[Ken Willinger]

We are working on it... not saying it will be done! I have to be careful here. If I say we are working on it and don't get it done by the time cameras are delivered, I don't want to hear any crap! :-)

Double recording would ease the minds of many here...and certainly of the producers who are still stuck in tape mode and don't trust the digital revolution. Instant back-up. Very nice. I hope you guys can swing it!

[Don King]

My 1st choice is not listed... 64GB RED RAM. The 1.8" will not be ready for a few months, but when it is it will be my 2nd choice (and 1st on-camera choice).

One is the housing and the other is media.

JimThank you.

-Don

[feb31films]

Theoretically, ExpressCard FLASH is going to be more expensive per GB and won't pack as many GB either. 1.8" HDD style is a bit larger form factor. But I think a lot of this will be determined by what consumers buy the most of, or at least prices will be. But I still bet the 1.8" drive form factor will be the dominant form. After all, it will be used inside everything from compact camcorders, to iPods and other media players, PDAs, etc..

Not quite true - you can get an 8GB ExpressCard Flash now for $450 - buy 4 of them and it's only $300 more than a 32 GB 1.8 SATA FLASH. Assuming a 32GB ExpressCard will emerge and prices adjust like they normally do - cost will be about the same for either solution. The reason I like the ExpressCard option is with a new MacBook Pro or PC you can effectively have a P2 style work flow. When the card is full, walk it over to your "video village" , pop it in a laptop and immediately transfer to an external hard drive. Card returns to set and your overworked P.A. takes the hard drive to the post house.

For the price, I see no reason NOT to get a standard CF slot in the camera. The cards are so affordable, it's great to have them as a backup option in case of a Red Raid hard drive failure or some other catastrophe. (Crap! I left the raid module at the shop!)

If nothing else this is a great example of why we should really be referring to this as the "Red Camera System". Gone are the days when a DP would choose a camera solely based on his favorite lens and film stock. Post production must be taken into account (especially when you're on a budget) and the Red Team has done that better than any other "camera" company to date. Fantastic job guys. We multi-taskers are forever grateful.

[Sean]

I suppose getting a Flash Module now saves shipping the camera back to the Red factory to have it added later. The modules don't sound like they'll be something users add themselves, like a plug-in accessory...or am I mistaken about that? I'd prefer to be able to wait and order the appropriate module later (just sticking with the Red drives for now). But if it means shipping the camera back to the factory for Flash upgrade, we might opt to get one of the Flash Modules pre-installed.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not quite true - you can get an 8GB ExpressCard Flash now for $450 - buy 4 of them and it's only $300 more than a 32 GB 1.8 SATA FLASH. Assuming a 32GB ExpressCard will emerge and prices adjust like they normally do - cost will be about the same for either solution.

You're confusing me... I concur with the 8GB ExpressCard FLASH, but I've seen them as low as $320. SanDisk's latest 1.8" SATA SSD can be had for an estimated street price of $695. I haven't personally seen one I can actually buy yet, but that's the projected price from both engadget and anandtech based on the volume purchase price. These should be available on the market at some level to OEMs and even at the consumer level within the next month or two.

In the end, pricing will be ultimately determined by what people buy. The 1.8" SSD is going to have the opportunity to provide higher capacities on a consistant basis. Just because they are physically larger than an ExpressCard-34 device.


The reason I like the ExpressCard option is with a new MacBook Pro or PC you can effectively have a P2 style work flow. When the card is full, walk it over to your "video village" , pop it in a laptop and immediately transfer to an external hard drive. Card returns to set and your overworked P.A. takes the hard drive to the post house.

Yep, that is a strong argument for ExpressCard storage. However, I personally would rather have something in the form of the 1.8" SSD devices, hopefully the RED FLASH module will hold two of these. (I suppose it could hold two (or even more) ExpressCard modules too, we don't know the specs yet. By the end of this year, when 1.8" SSDs are shipping in 64GB and prices have fallen through the floor (read new touch-screen video iPod late summer with 32GB SSD), I think it would be beneficial to have 64~128GB in the FLASH module alone on camera.

I'm also curious to see the docking arrangement for the 1.8" SSD FLASH option. It's not like we just slide the drives into a slot and there we go...


For the price, I see no reason NOT to get a standard CF slot in the camera. The cards are so affordable, it's great to have them as a backup option in case of a Red Raid hard drive failure or some other catastrophe. (Crap! I left the raid module at the shop!)

I'm thinking the same thing. CF is so common and cheap, this is almost a no-brainer. The only reason to not get the CF module is if EC AND 1.8" options also become very common by the time our cameras ship. If I had to buy today, I would get the CF option for sure and would order a box full of 8GB CF cards... Oh wait, 16GB CF cards should be showing up in quantity over the next month or two... Hmmmm. With CF though, we'll have to make sure we get ones that can handle the transfer rates.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I suppose getting a Flash Module now saves shipping the camera back to the Red factory to have it added later. The modules don't sound like they'll be something users add themselves, like a plug-in accessory...or am I mistaken about that?

The FLASH modules are a user-changeable accessory. So you can buy the CF FLASH module as well as the ExpressCard or 1.8" SSD, or all three if you like.

As I understand it, the camera comes equipped with a mount for the FLASH module which has an eSATA interface. The only thing that requires factory installation is if you want the RAW/Optical port. Then you send in the camera (or order it this way) and the FLASH module mount is replaced with the RAW port.

[Mike the beginner]

We are working on it... not saying it will be done! I have to be careful here. If I say we are working on it and don't get it done by the time cameras are delivered, I don't want to hear any crap! :-)

It is massively reassuring that whatever you guys suggest to Team Red they thInk about it, then see if it will work, then try to add it to the camera BEFORE the camera ships. No moans from me if you do not manage it, the fact you guys are trying is good enough for most of us.


Mike the beginner

[Sean]

The FLASH modules are a user-changeable accessory. So you can buy the CF FLASH module as well as the ExpressCard or 1.8" SSD, or all three if you like.

As I understand it, the camera comes equipped with a mount for the FLASH module which has an eSATA interface. The only thing that requires factory installation is if you want the RAW/Optical port. Then you send in the camera (or order it this way) and the FLASH module mount is replaced with the RAW port.

Good to know. Gives us a chance to wait for the Flash Wars to settle a bit (or not) before committing to a flash media format.

[feb31films]

You're confusing me... I concur with the 8GB ExpressCard FLASH, but I've seen them as low as $320. SanDisk's latest 1.8" SATA SSD can be had for an estimated street price of $695. I haven't personally seen one I can actually buy yet, but that's the projected price from both engadget and anandtech

Yeah, Sandisk is OEM only right now, so I was basing my price comparison on the RED Sata Media ($1500). I think both technologies seem very interesting and it's rare to see a company become such an early adopter of emerging 3rd party technologies like this. I will be keeping my eye on both and like you said, as a user installed option, you can order one now and the other later if it proves to be the superior technology or just play the waiting game and go with Red Raid now. At least we can't say the Red Team didn't give us enough options! :biggrin:

[Don King]

Very useful discussion. Stick it!

[Roberto B]

me seconds that..

[Poi Boy]

How many minutes of 4k redcode raw fit on red ram sata 64 Gig ?
-A

[Poi Boy]

Anybody ?? 35, 40 minutes ?
-A

[Brook Willard]

Assuming a formatted capacity of 59.60GB and a footage data rate of 27.5MB/s, the RED RAM should be able to hold approximately 36 minutes and 59 seconds of REDCODE RAW 4K@24p.

[Poi Boy]

Thanks Brook.
-A

[C.H.Haskell]

Express/34 here also for the Mac Book pro compatibility but I would use the Red drive as main for now due to cost. PJ what did you use, the Red drives correct? They seemed to hold up!

cheers

[mike70]

Would these express cards be compatible with the new Sony XDCAM Ex., which could be used as a b cam and which now uses 8 or 16 gb sxs express cards?

[Emanuel A.]

Well, Sony's betting on an express card route.

EDIT -- Time for an update, maybe?

[Jannard]

Assuming a formatted capacity of 59.60GB and a footage data rate of 27.5MB/s, the RED RAM should be able to hold approximately 36 minutes and 59 seconds of REDCODE RAW 4K@24p.

There you go assuming... the data rate is more complicated now than just 27MB/sec. That's why we have to certify the cards. We are not likely to land on a fixed data stream.

Jim

[Häakon]

There you go assuming... the data rate is more complicated now than just 27MB/sec. That's why we have to certify the cards. We are not likely to land on a fixed data stream.

Jim
I'm sure Brook meant no harm, Jim. :-) There are still a lot of unknown variables, and until we get the official word on things, the best we can do is make the most educated guesses we can with the information that has been made available to us. If there's a way to open a more direct channel of information to the moderators so that we can more effectively answer these kinds of questions, I think we would definitely be in favor of that! :ninja:

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Since Jim's post on the CF module thread mentioned that the 2.5" HDDs for RedDrives might not reach a reasonable price until after the first of the year it looks like CF is the hook up for a while. That makes me very curious about how much 4K, 24fps RedCode RAW will fit on an 8GB card - not to mention the cost of the cards.

I am concerned that for 2007 projects the max run time might be less than 5 minutes :holloween: which might nuke deals that cannot adapt to that limitation.

Soooo... HD-SDI to Wafian or RaveHD by tether for longer rolls?

Will we be able to push RedCode RAW via the eSATA tap to a small RAID on a cart?

Just askin

[Häakon]

I am concerned that for 2007 projects the max run time might be less than 5 minutes :holloween: which might nuke deals that cannot adapt to that limitation.
A lot of people had that concern with the HVX when 4GB P2 cards were the most we could get, but it worked out just fine in most situations. What RED has that no other camera does is the RED-DRIVE - onboard 4K recording for hours and hours! At 2K, the space is virtually unlimited. That's huge.

Most cine-type productions are used to limited run times with film mags, and the capacity of the flash-based options is only going to go up over time (while the price falls!). I think we'll be just fine. :-)

[David Bourla]

God, it would be great to record on a 16 gig CF card at the same time as the Red Drive! Instant backup. But... you'd need to always backup and empty the cards to make that viable. On the other hand, saving my shots on spinning magnetic disks with whirring needles rokcing back and forth makes me scared as heck. Oh lets face it, the future is RED 128G RAM DRIVE!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Dude, this thread is like over a year old... Why bring it back from the dead?