Spin?

[Martin Drew]

I think overall the prices are good. As a reservation holder I will be spending less than I originally expected to "tool up" with the accessories I want, but I think the $2500 rebate is putting a bit of spin on the pricing. If the announcement had been that "the camera package was as previously specced but the price has now gone up to $20500.... reservation holders will now have to pay $18000 and not $17500" there would be a lot more dissent.

I suppose the issue is that the camera base package is costing a bit more to produce than originally envisaged. So there are 2 options, Either say the price has gone up from $17500 to $20500 (assuming $100 for a battery mount), or trim the base package of the accessories to keep the magic $17500 price point. From a marketing standpoint it has got to be better to do the second. With that in mind it would have been nice to see a $3000 rebate for reservation holders.

I know it is going to be seen as whining by some, but I am spurred to write this by the amount of stick people have taken for pointing out that the price of the camera has gone up. I know "specs will change" etc etc. but up until yesterday everyone believed they would get a camera + battery + cables + charger + LCD monitor for their $17500. In addition to that all reservation holders expected to get an extra benefit.

I am not having a moan with the prices because I think the prices are fine. I am not having a moan about the new spec because the spec is fine, as Jim said " spec will change". I am having a moan about the amount of stick given to those who are pointing out that the camera (basic package as previously outlined) will cost more than expected for reservation holders... $500 more.

M

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I can see your point, but feel that the prices still are well below expected. (atleast for me)
Someone earlier said they where floored. I find that expression to describe the feeling I felt when I saw the prices.

Martin this is not directed towards you, but a good thread to air my personal thoughts. I feel there is a disregard and
god-like demands on Jim and his team. The public can have a lot of levrage and early on we forced Jim to post a price
for the camera. How many of us have ever faced a decision like that? I can understand and respect the difficulty in
foreseeing the future in pricing a product a year before the delivery.

We all know things have a habit of becoming more expensive then what we budgeted. I'm sure this is true for Jim also.

[Sanjin Jukic]

We all know things have a habit of becoming more expensive then what we budgeted. I'm sure this is true for Jim also.

Thanks Andreas for one of the best thoughts about the RED prices and the customers expectations.

[Moir]

Martin

I don't really think it's fair to characterise the pricing policy as spin.

It's true that the price has gone up in the sense that camera+battery package+LCD-rebate=more than $17,500.

But it seems to me that the enhancements to the original package are worth considerably more than the difference.

As it happens, I don't need the LCD, so I'm quite pleased that I'm not getting something I don't want thrown-in and can put the money towards the EVF.

Others are invested in AB battery systems, and probably feel the same way about not having batteries thrown in that they don't need.

My overall feeling is relief that the EVF is affordable.

The bottom line here is that the pricing policy is completely transparent, and nobody is being forced to buy anything.

[Martin Drew]

I don't disagree with any of your points Andreas. Prices are largely inline or slightly less than I was expecting too. I certainly have realistic expectations of Jim and Red and I would expect the company to price appropriately to make a profit.

M

[Martin Drew]

Martin

I don't really think it's fair to characterise the pricing policy as spin.



There is a question mark in the title.

I think the way the rebate was announced 30 minutes before the prices came out had an element of spin about it, but that is the nature of marketing, I am not having a go about that, purely about the amount of stick given to those who point out that the effective price has risen


The bottom line here is that the pricing policy is completely transparent, and nobody is being forced to buy anything.

I agree

[Gunleik Groven]

... and to think that I was seriously planning to finance a Varicam a little while ago...

Prices are better than I expected.
Most changes are for the better.

I think it would be wise of Red to eventually put together a basic kit (Camera, batteries, LCD, basic production pack and probably a red-drive, and possibly a still- or B4 mount, but I can see the psychological reason of not doing that just yet.

@ NAB the dust should have settled, even over at some other fora, and this would give people an easy way of budgetting.

I fieell silly saying what others have, but to me:
Thank You Red Team.
One of the best days since I started following this camera!

Gunleik

[Clayton Harper]

Prices have barely gone up when you factor the allowance. The earliest idea of what came for $17.5 (camera, lcd, battery, charger) is basically still there once you factor the allowance. You have to pay $400 more than what was expected to get that configuration. This is a 2% increase in the overall price for the package.

The pricing is fair for all the accessories. The EVF is an especially good value.

Team Red has kept their word.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

If you find spending $30K on a camera that shoots 4K difficult, then how will you feel about spending $12K or more on a good Mac with a good NLE? How will you feel about spending X dollars a day on cast and crew, or good lighting. If the price feels high, stick with HDV. The prices are fantastic, and if people find they are spending a couple of thousand more than was hoped, it's not a big deal. We were told everything could and would change. To get the most out this camera, you'll be spending all over the place - the camera will be the cheapest part of the whole process, in many cases. Having just budgeted a feature (to be shot with Red), I know that the whole Red setup is one of the tiniest items in the budget. It's barely an expense at all.

[Häakon]

The original poster didn't take any issue with the price of what's being offered. Please stay on topic if you wish to continue this.

[Stephen Williams]

but up until yesterday everyone believed they would get a camera + battery + cables + charger + LCD monitor for their $17500. In addition to that all reservation holders expected to get an extra benefit.
M

Hi Martin,

To be fair there was never any mention on the Red website of the battery + Charger included. I read several posts from a moderator on this site that they were included, however without any links to his source of information.

FWIW on high end equipment batteries + chargers are always extra, so no surprise to me.

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

This is a 2% increase in the overall price for the package.

The pricing is fair for all the accessories. The EVF is an especially good value.

Team Red has kept their word.

I agree

[Häakon]

Hi Stephen,

This was the post on DVInfo in which Stuart English (on the Red team) indicated that the battery and charger (along with the LCD) would be included for the base price:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=479925

They have said from day one that the specs are in flux and are likely to change, so there should also have been an understanding by the public that this was not set in stone. This was the post I believe you are looking for, however.

Best,

Häakon

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Häakon,

Thanks for that link, O.K. I can understand some people being upset.

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

Hi Häakon,

Thanks for that link, O.K. I can understand some people being upset.

Stephen

And here Stephen

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=56562

Hey. Are we still getting a window sticker in the package.... ?

[ChristopherKenworthy]

When I was accused of going off topic earlier, I should perhaps have said, "The reason people get a lot of stick for pointing out that the price has gone up, is that a few thousand dollars are negligible in the greater scheme of things, and it seems like an overt focus on the negative when we're all having a good time getting excited about this camera. Yes the price has gone up, but we all feel we'll all be shooting 4K cheaper than we dreamed possible, so why complain, given that we were warned everything could change and nothing (not even Stuat's posts) was ever set in stone."

[Stephen Williams]

And here Stephen

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=56562

Hey. Are we still getting a window sticker in the package.... ?

Hi Martin,

Looking on the bright side some Red reservation holders will be able to use existing batteries & charges, so for them the $2500 rebate is a welcome gift.

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

I haven't seen much complaining, it has mostly just been observation.

M

[Martin Drew]

Hi Martin,

Looking on the bright side some Red reservation holders will be able to use existing batteries & charges, so for them the $2500 rebate is a welcome gift.

Stephen

Yes. I agree, pricing is good and a lot more flexible than I was expecting.

M

[Mike the beginner]

When I was accused of going off topic earlier, I should perhaps have said, "The reason people get a lot of stick for pointing out that the price has gone up, is that a few thousand dollars are negligible in the greater scheme of things, and it seems like an overt focus on the negative when we're all having a good time getting excited about this camera. Yes the price has gone up, but we all feel we'll all be shooting 4K cheaper than we dreamed possible, so why complain, given that we were warned everything could change and nothing (not even Stuat's posts) was ever set in stone."

I think the overall price is still pretty good but i agree with what Martin said. But i suppose you have to put a good slant on things and overall red are providing a lot for whay others in the past have asked two arms and a leg for!!

To those of us down at the bottom scale and are purchasing a complete set up, an extra say for example £2,000, is a lot when you are sacrificing everything but the kitchen sink to start off with a good red package.

Having had time to reflect overnight i would only comment that the price of the red rails at $2750 has disappointed me. Unless you can use the $1,250 version and still use the red drive and batteries in the back. Someone mentioned the basic red rails does not allow for this.

Well done to te red team anyway but remember we are not all making high production films and any savings or increase impacts on us wee guys:biggrin:

Mike the beginner

[Andrew M.]

I think Martin wanted to say that for taking the risk of $1000 dollar investment in the project that most called “impossible” should give him better bang for the buck?
(Correct me if I am wrong)
Original reservation holders should be rewarded by having different (lower) price that the people that didn’t reserve?
$2,500 allowance is just a different way of giving better price to the people that believed in the project and took a risk, without increasing the camera price.

Hey, in a few month investment of $1000 did bring you the return of $2,500.
250% gain, with 110% money back guarantee, I didn’t see this one since a long time.

[Dominic Jones]

Unless you can use the $1,250 version and still use the red drive and batteries in the back. Someone mentioned the basic red rails does not allow for this.
I don't think that is correct - from the Red website:

RED ONE BASIC PRODUCTION PACK$1,250
Includes:

* V Mount Battery Plate (battery not included)
* RED RAIL™ base package
o Plate / Magazine Cradle
o Universal Mounting Bracket
o 8” Rod (3)
o Grip Handle
o Base Plate
o Shoulder pad / tripod plate adaptor
o Top Bracket
o Top Handle

The V mount Battery Plate will store your battery on the rails, and the Plate/Magazine cradle should (I assume) store either the Red-Drive or Red-Ram Digital Magazines.

I think the only thing seriously missing from the basic package is a 19mm to 15m rod adapter, but Jim has stated elsewhere that this will be available separately at minimal cost - so all looks good there...

Sorry, back on topic!....

[Martin Drew]

I think Martin wanted to say that for taking the risk of $1000 dollar investment in the project that most called “impossible” should give him better bang for the buck?
(Correct me if I am wrong)

Errrrr. Not exactly

My point was that the price has effectively gone up, most people posting on this thread have agreed with that analysis, but people were getting a lot of stick for saying so. It just felt a bit overly defensive to me.

I think there is a huge benefit to being a reservation holder, we have been cushioned from the effective price rise. That makes me $2500 better off. I am definitely not complaining about that.

M

[Dominic Jones]

Errrrr. Not exactly

My point was that the price has effectively gone up, most people posting on this thread have agreed with that analysis, but people were getting a lot of stick for saying so. It just felt a bit overly defensive to me.

I think there is a huge benefit to being a reservation holder, we have been cushioned from the effective price rise. That makes me $2500 better off. I am definitely not complaining about that.

M
Here here!

I agree entirely on both points with Martin, as it happens - I think that people should not be given stick for pointing out, quite correctly, that the price has raised (let's remember that not everyone on this board is a reservation holder).

However, I also think that - as Martin excellently phrases it - "being cushioned from the effective price raise" is an amazing gift to reservation holders. For all the talk of "believers", it doesn't really take that much belief to put down a fully refundable deposit, and realistically I think that getting anything in return for that - never mind effectively being given $2,500! - is a fantastic gesture...

If every reservation holder had plumped up a non-returnable deposit then that might be a different issue, but let's not get to carried away with the believers issue and patting ourselves on the back (although today the decision to put down a reservation looks like an awfully good one!)...

Essentially, I think the most important factor is that Red have stuck to their word, and are delivering what looks set to be an immense product at an unprecedented price - I, for one, can't ask for much more than that...