Price Complaints

[Emery Wells]

Whats remarkable about the RED camera is that it has opened the world of professional film making to so many different levels of film makers with varying degrees of experience and resources.

With the gate wide open, this unfortunately brings varying levels of expectations about operating costs. I find the complaints about the prices being raised or higher than expected to be disheartening.

I think we should all keep 2 important things in mind:

1. RED never promised prices in advance and made every attempt to set expectations by informing us everything is in flux... from prices to specs.

2. The announced price list, for the most part, is remarkably lower than other professional gear on the market.

So while we all drool and dream about the projects we plan on shooting with our cameras... everything from weddings to feature films, lets keep in mind RED set out to build a digital cinema camera, not a handy cam that you can bolt $50 sony batteries to.

[Rick Darge]

Let's also keep in mind that the REDteam has spent the last year and half throwing their heart and soul onto the table all for us, facing insurmountable odds, naysayers and technological barriers - They financially deserve more for this effort - I'm suprised at how fair and low their pricelist is - Kudos

[PaulClements]

The prices are not higher anyway, so I don't see why people are complaining full stop.

The original had an lcd attached, therefore it didn't require any cables, the new does not and is supplied with $500 worth of cables if buying the same package as previously expected. It's therefore actually cheaper!

[Michael Schrengohst]

I have spent more on Anton-Bauer bricks than most of you spent on your last car! $500 bricks that might last 3-6 months....I could get them re-built for $250 and ekk another few months out of them. I would love to see RED get into making other accessories like a Matte Box that does not cost $5000. Also - how about follow-focus units for their lenses.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I have spent more on Anton-Bauer bricks than most of you spent on your last car! $500 bricks that might last 3-6 months....I could get them re-built for $250 and ekk another few months out of them. I would love to see RED get into making other accessories like a Matte Box that does not cost $5000. Also - how about follow-focus units for their lenses.
there are many other companies that make inexpensive matte boxes.. you dont need to spend that kind of dough on a matte box.. its a box.. that holds filters!
theres a company in germany that makes a pretty cool lightweight box for around 500... i forgot the name.. ill think about it.. but then i know redrock will be producing a box by august if i can remember right.. but please correct me if im wrong on that.. or u can find a big budget film production going on.. preferably a tom cruise movie.. and steal a matte box off a panavision.

[Steve Gibby]

I think the ones who have complained about the RED prices are invariably those who are moving up from the prosumer world of production. They're used to prosumer price levels and they now have sticker shock at what a professional camera system costs. Ironically, the longtime professionals who know what pro-level camera systems cost, are stoked with RED prices because they know the RED prices are way below the norm for pro level gear.

Then there's the price to performance ratio of equipment: what you get in utility compared to what it costs. Longtime professional equipment users will immediately be able to discern that RED's utility and capability are extremely high + RED's prices are very reasonable. That equals a stunning price to performance ratio. Conversely, those moving up from the prosumer world may be just beginning their understanding of the fiscal, tech, and operational realities of the pro-level cine style and EFP style industries. If someone doesn’t fully understand the performance capability of the RED One system, and they have no real grasp of real world pro-level equipment prices, then that is a recipe for them to complain about what amounts to a minimal price increase for the RED One system.

Stuart English has aptly itemized the feature improvements in RED One since NAB 2006 on another thread on this forum. RED has exponentially increased the features and capability of the initially proposed camera system. The “price increase” is absolutely minimal. The end result since NAB 2006: the price to performance ratio of the RED One camera system has become even more dynamic, with many added features, and a slight increase in price. If you’ve been a pro in this industry for any length of time, you know that a high features/moderate cost scenario just never happens with pro-level equipment. If you’re moving up from the prosumer world count yourself lucky to now have tools available to you, at a stunning price/performance ratio, that all of us longtime pros have been dreaming about for our entire careers.

[Martin Drew]

Are you sure there is any complaining about pricing? I might have missed it but I haven't seen any.

M

[RED-Tank]

I am a wedding videographer but I am more then happier with RED price, if anything I would concern is how to save enough money and get a RED camera and then get rid of all my handycams forever ! ha ha.

You simply can't hope for Sony doing same thing like RED even you have supported them more then 15 years~ (okay just couple of cameras, hardly loud enough to make Sony heard that we need something little bit like RED).

[Jeremy Torrie]

Oh it's there, but it's really from those who don't pay their mortgages like I do from filmmaking...it's been pretty much covered in posts all over the place. The Red One is doing for high end HD what the DVX did for DV -a total revolution, and I am hoping that those with reservations continue to support Jim and his crew...even if it means I have to wait a little longer for mine.

[Ace]

Err.. this camera is about 100K underpriced. Any complaints are an absoloute joke. Sell the Camry.

As for accessories, we all know how Jim works by now. He doesnt do anything half assed, even if they are just accessories or handle bars or whatever. And quality comes at a price. Lucky for everyone that that price is very affordable for mere us mortals.

[Mike the beginner]

I think the ones who have complained about the RED prices are invariably those who are moving up from the prosumer world of production. They're used to prosumer price levels and they now have sticker shock at what a professional camera system costs. Ironically, the longtime professionals who know what pro-level camera systems cost, are stoked with RED prices because they know the RED prices are way below the norm for pro level gear.

Then there's the price to performance ratio of equipment: what you get in utility compared to what it costs. Longtime professional equipment users will immediately be able to discern that RED's utility and capability are extremely high + RED's prices are very reasonable. That equals a stunning price to performance ratio. Conversely, those moving up from the prosumer world may be just beginning their understanding of the fiscal, tech, and operational realities of the pro-level cine style and EFP style industries. If someone doesn’t fully understand the performance capability of the RED One system, and they have no real grasp of real world pro-level equipment prices, then that is a recipe for them to complain about what amounts to a minimal price increase for the RED One system.

Stuart English has aptly itemized the feature improvements in RED One since NAB 2006 on another thread on this forum. RED has exponentially increased the features and capability of the initially proposed camera system. The “price increase” is absolutely minimal. The end result since NAB 2006: the price to performance ratio of the RED One camera system has become even more dynamic, with many added features, and a slight increase in price. If you’ve been a pro in this industry for any length of time, you know that a high features/moderate cost scenario just never happens with pro-level equipment. If you’re moving up from the prosumer world count yourself lucky to now have tools available to you, at a stunning price/performance ratio, that all of us longtime pros have been dreaming about for our entire careers.

No further explanation can possibley add to this one. Gibby you are 100% correct in everything you say. A perfect sum up of the situation in my view.

Mike the beginner

[Petr Dvorak]

For every complainer: ask for detailed pricing of similar non RED system package (if any exist) and compare it with RED system package - piece by piece, side by side ... And after you swallow it compare picture quality of both systems - and than simply look in your pocket and make your choice :D

[Nik Manning]

No further explanation can possibley add to this one. Gibby you are 100% correct in everything you say. A perfect sum up of the situation in my view.

Mike the beginner

I second that! I am prosumer type of guy so gees that is a lot of money, but it is still better than the other pro cameras by far.
So if I need some red in my life I will rent it. So yeah I predict a booming rental market for RED this year and next.
I am a REDHEAD with no RED BREAD! :)

[Craig Schober]

For every complainer: ask for detailed pricing of similar non RED system package (if any exist) and compare it with RED system package - piece by piece, side by side ... And after you swallow it compare picture quality of both systems - and than simply look in your pocket and make your choice :D

people are only complaining because they were first told one thing and then another. if the cam was 100k and red changed it to 105k, people would still say it's a great deal and people would still complain that they raised the price.

it does look like red pulled a fast one but they also warned/told everyone things were subject to change and still are. i just hope they make the shipping dates and nab show too.

[Martin Drew]

it does look like red pulled a fast one but they also warned/told everyone things were subject to change and still are. i just hope they make the shipping dates and nab show too.

I think that is a bit harsh Wigby. The price just went up a bit and they tried to present it in the best way.

M

[Martin Drew]

I correct my earlier statement I have spent a bit of time going through the threads and managed to find a couple of people who complained. Doesn't seem enough to be worth getting disheartened about though.

M

[Zakaree Sandberg]

what are you guys talkin about.. red is still 17.5 what went up? im stoked that Jim hooked us up with the allowance deal!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've only seen a couple complaints too and at first glance, a few of them were valid, but once everything was clarified all was well again.

My only question about the pricing is the LCD/EVF extension cables. They're $200 (3ft) and $300 (10ft). OK, they come with the LCD anyway, but what's so special about them? :bleh: I could swear I saw a comment in all the posts yesterday that said they were a standard cable.

[Martin Drew]

what are you guys talkin about.. red is still 17.5 what went up? im stoked that Jim hooked us up with the allowance deal!

Up until yesterday the announcement which stood was that for 17.5k you would get

Camera Body with P/L lens mount
hi res LCD
Battery and Charger
a license for REDCODE
and a Red sticker

Yesterday it was announced that for 17.5k you would just get the Camera body with P/L mount and a license for REDCODE

Effectively that means the price of the body has gone up. This is significant for those without a reservation though almost offset by the 2.5K accessory rebate for those with.

Overall the reception to the pricing has been very very positive, only a couple of people have complained about very specific issues but there have been a lot of responses to those complaints which has blown them out of proportion.

M

[Mike the beginner]

I think the reservation bonus is fair on both sides.

Red gained valuable insight and feedback that allowed them to improve the camera. They also benefitted in sales significantly by us believers spreading the word and encouraging others to jump on board. Even no-nothing yours trully managed to indirectly get someone else in on the act.

Us reservation holders were rewarded for that by the $2,500 allowance.


Cant wait to hear views and feedback when Nab opens up:calm:

Mike the beginner

[Martin Drew]

I am amazed no one has been complaining that the sticker has been dropped from the new spec. :clown2:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=545151&postcount=4 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=545151&postcount=4)

M

[Brook Willard]

what are you guys talkin about.. red is still 17.5 what went up? im stoked that Jim hooked us up with the allowance deal!

The original $17,500 price was supposed to include the LCD and I believe a battery. It now includes neither... with the allowance instead. If you bought the LCD and a power pack - even considering the allowance - the "total" price would go up by a few hundred bucks.

That said, the allowance was put in place because not everybody needs the same thing. Many people have significant power systems in place. Others don't want an LCD.

Some people are up in arms because they feel that prices like $2950 for an EVF are too steep. As Gibby postulated, the people who think that a price like that is high are probably from a prosumer background. Those moving over from a film background are still trying to coil up their tongues.

[Jannard]

Again... the original LCD was a flip-out 3.5" and the battery was a proprietary RED on-camera type like an HVX. They now are professional grade. A 5.6" hi-rez LCD and a V-lock battery (open) system. If these were offered as a $400 upgrade, everyone would have wanted them. Or should have wanted them.

Jim

[Steven Parker]

$6500 for the RAW option was what surprised me...:sad: - but no complaints. As Gibby said, the price-to-performance ratio is out of this world - and Sony's, and Panasonic's, and SI's, etc etc

[Gabriel C.]

People are upset (the ones that are ... just look at mike's post at hdforindies) because they had expected to get the camera with an lcd and battery ... AND something else for being reservation holders. We were all told we would get special treatment ... and we have to the tune of $2500 ... but most people assumed that MEANT we'd get something beyond the lcd and battery pack. Personally I'm sort of on the fence about it ... but I understand how they feel.

[Michael Hastings]

Jim: I prefer the option of choice. As a manufacturer of underwater video systems where we supply both LCDs and a variety of batteries for our lights, I know you could have given us a cheaper LCD and a cheaper battery and actually kept a few hundred more dollars in your pocket. Both of them would have worked fine but be kind of half-assed compared to the solutions you ended up giving us.

The added option of choice is what really helps. In my case I will eventually have both the EVF and the LCD but initially I need the LCD more than the EVF. Yet the logical thing for you to do if you had to dictate the package would have been to give everybody the EVF and dump the battery idea. (Not sure why you included one in the first place. I have purchased at least 10 high end broadcast cameras from Panasonic, Sony, and Ikegami over the years - and not one of them came with a battery! )

Your accessory credit solution worked out better for me and I suspect for a lot of people that have different needs. Also, anyone that bought two or more, have the option of getting several of the options without spending anything additional.

Question: It probably has been stated elsewhere - but what is the pixel resolution of the LCD?


Again... the original LCD was a flip-out 3.5" and the battery was a proprietary RED on-camera type like an HVX. They now are professional grade. A 5.6" hi-rez LCD and a V-lock battery (open) system. If these were offered as a $400 upgrade, everyone would have wanted them. Or should have wanted them.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

EVF = 720p

[edit: this post originally stated that the LCD was 720p. This is wrong, the LCD is 1024x600]

[JohnF]

Frankly I think the prices are fantastic. They reflect the economic circumstances
of the professional world whose budgets are becoming astonishingly low - yet more money seems to go to programme lawyers than ever before.

The rebate for people who made a deposit is a great deal and reflects well on the company for supporting the people that put their hard earned cash in them on what was estentially an act of faith. Well done all invloved.

I was unable to jump in on that deal as I was stuck elsewhere with finance but with the price listing/performance released yesterday I can say that there is nothing, nothing at all to complain about.

This is the right product at the right price...

JohnF

[Michael Hastings]

P.S. Now that I know the final deal, I would happily buy out a few of the other reservation holders, and I suspect there are quite a few other single reservation holders that wish they would have bought another reservation or two.






Some people are up in arms because they feel that prices like $2950 for an EVF are too steep. .....

[Michael Hastings]

Just to confirm - the LCD itself is actually 1280x720.


LCD and EVF = 720p

[Jeff Kilgroe]

P.S. Now that I know the final deal, I would happily buy out a few of the other reservation holders, and I suspect there are quite a few other single reservation holders that wish they would have bought another reservation or two.

I'm thinking the same thing. Although, those reservation #s are non-transferable. Sure, there are ways around this though - like an agreement between you and the other reservation older where they legally agree to let you pay for, receive and own the camera they have reserved all for the consideration of what they've already paid for a reservation and a nominal fee of $5 or so. RED wouldn't ever know until you have to call them for support or something. As far as RED is concerned, the person bought the camera and immediately sold it to another party...

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yes, anyone that wants to sell me an extra LCD viewfinder, I'am ready.
I want to order one of 5.6" LCD viewfinders today! How can I do that?
Or when can I do that....it seems like you have interest from other forums as well. Hmmmmm....

[Gunleik Groven]

I know what was posted @ DVinfo by stuart and DVXuser by jarred.
None of those posts include Jims signature signature (wow, that's a pun! -;) about "all specs prelim and can change at anytime" and still I feel...

...incredibly lucky being a rez-holder.

Really.

Have anyone tried buying an SD digibeta deck lately?

I mean... Really!

I have my whole Red package (without support, matteboxes et al) way below the price point of a single digibeta deck.

OK. The pricepoint is a bit stiff compared to a DV deck, but still...

Complaints?

Not me!

Gunleik

[Mark B.]

I've got issues with some of the prices like the $300 cable... is it made of gold? Otherwise, that's gotta be something like a 3000% profit margin.

[chuck colburn]

I've got issues with some of the prices like the $300 cable... is it made of gold? Otherwise, that's gotta be something like a 3000% profit margin.

Have you priced Lemo connectors lately? And have you ever built a cable using one? I think I have fairly good eye to hand cordination and I would still rather have someone fabricate one for me!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Have you priced Lemo connectors lately? And have you ever built a cable using one? I think I have fairly good eye to hand cordination and I would still rather have someone fabricate one for me!

Admittedly, I haven't priced LEMO cables lately. But I can buy top grade DVI-DL in 50ft length for $35. Same with HDMI. Double that price if I want mesh-glide / net jackets for pulling through conduit.

Anyway, the only two prices on that whole list I question are those cables, so I'm not complaining, I just think they're curiously high. But then again, most companies have a 5000% mark-up on cables and connectors anyway so It's not like I flinched when I saw the prices. It's still way more reasonable than walking into BestBuy and paying $35 for a 6ft USB2 cable or $229 for a 3ft DVI to HDMI cable? What kind of crack are they smoking? But hey, if consumers pay it...

FWIW, if RED is using the high-grade name-brand LEMO connectors/cables, then the prices aren't out of line at all. That's some nice, although pricey, stuff. I think a $200 and $300 extension cable seemed to catch me off guard when I first read the price list and I was for some reason assuming mini-HDMI B or something to that effect.

[Stuart English]

Yes, those cables use genuine push lock Hirose and LEMO connectors.

[Paul Hazlett]

Of course you realize AV, that the 1700 is for 2 cables and an arm

Includes: 1700 LCD
RED ARM adjustable arm
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 3ft
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Of course you realize AV, that the 1700 is for 2 cables and an arm

Includes: 1700 LCD
RED ARM adjustable arm
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 3ft
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft


Yeah, I was referring to the $200 and $300 individual price for individual 3ft and 10ft EVF/LCD cables. I know they both come included (along with the arm) when you buy the LCD. But like I said, I'm not complaining. The prices just caught me off guard at first, before I realized we were talking Hirose and LEMO connectors.

Quite honestly, the accessories far exceeded my epectations. For example, I was expecting a mid-grade EVF for about $1200 to $1700. Which would have been nice and even revolutionary in its own right. Look at what Sony and Panasonic charge for their mid-grade, plastic crap... Ouch. Instead we were presented with a <$3K EVF that Jim says is superior to an Accuscene. If Jim says it's better, it's better and at $3K I'm buying one.

[Jaime Vallés]

Of course you realize AV, that the 1700 is for 2 cables and an arm

Includes: 1700 LCD
RED ARM adjustable arm
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 3ft
EVF / LCD Extension Cable 10ft

Just curious... Is it possible to buy the LCD without the 10ft extension cable?

[Roberto B]

okay, there's a obvious fuzz..


this all ass kissing hurts.. :help: at least at our pocket.. i still have a little self esteem.. and respect for my work.. from where comes my money..

i'll take the gibby's post as reference.. you well know how gibby's opinion is well considered.. and i can say i'm his fanboy.. he knows.. :wink:


I think the ones who have complained about the RED prices are invariably those who are moving up from the prosumer world of production. They're used to prosumer price levels and they now have sticker shock at what a professional camera system costs. Ironically, the longtime professionals who know what pro-level camera systems cost, are stoked with RED prices because they know the RED prices are way below the norm for pro level gear.

Then there's the price to performance ratio of equipment: what you get in utility compared to what it costs. Longtime professional equipment users will immediately be able to discern that RED's utility and capability are extremely high + RED's pricesyeah.. there are different markets.. different goals.. different users.. different professionals.. not all professionals have interest in RED.. some will be out because of this camera.. other ones will be out FROM this wonderful piece of gear.. because of the dollars..

other ones are doing art for living not business..

[Don Woods]

I agree with all this. pricing i think for the most part is right on no complaints.

[Stokestack]

$6500 for the RAW option was what surprised me...

Yes, me too. Don't take this for more than it is; I'm sure the Red team and bean counters spent a lot of time hashing out prices and trying to deliver good ones. But more than the $300 cables or $500 lens mounts, this port bugs me. We all know that an outboard device capable of uncompressed data-capture will be very costly, but I for one thought the port itself was an integral part of the camera. Maybe I just missed the discussion of this as an optional extra-cost item.

Which leads to the question: Can we retrofit the port to the camera after buying the camera? I don't plan on buying an external RAID anytime soon, and therefore I don't need to blow this dough right now. But if the need for the best possible greenscreen comes along someday, what are our options in regard to raw output?

[Justin O'Neill]

Which leads to the question: Can we retrofit the port to the camera after buying the camera? I don't plan on buying an external RAID anytime soon, and therefore I don't need to blow this dough right now. But if the need for the best possible greenscreen comes along someday, what are our options in regard to raw output?

Good question... I was wondering this as well.

From the little I know about current camera accessories these prices look FANTASTIC!!

I'll take the option to buy an HD lcd screen over the cheaper SD attached lcd ANY day. Choice is a wonderful thing.

[Ken Corben]

Don't hear our friends across the pond complaining? 9,975 pounds sterling for an ultra hi-def camera - nice...

[Paul Hazlett]

Just curious... Is it possible to buy the LCD without the 10ft extension cable?

that is a question for the boys in RED

[Jannard]

Yes, me too. Don't take this for more than it is; I'm sure the Red team and bean counters spent a lot of time hashing out prices and trying to deliver good ones. But more than the $300 cables or $500 lens mounts, this port bugs me. We all know that an outboard device capable of uncompressed data-capture will be very costly, but I for one thought the port itself was an integral part of the camera. Maybe I just missed the discussion of this as an optional extra-cost item.

Which leads to the question: Can we retrofit the port to the camera after buying the camera? I don't plan on buying an external RAID anytime soon, and therefore I don't need to blow this dough right now. But if the need for the best possible greenscreen comes along someday, what are our options in regard to raw output?

I would talk you OUT of a RAW Port until AFTER you see REDCODE RAW (which doesn't need the Raw Port).

Jim

[Rodrigo Lizana]

I would talk you OUT of a RAW Port until AFTER you see REDCODE RAW (which doesn't need the Raw Port).

Jim

I believe in Red Code quality. I need someone to make me believe it´s going to handle faster speeds in the future (48fps is good enough for me). Red Code codec, at least in the stills, looks magnificent.

[Shawn Nelson]

Jim, I'm with ya on Redcode only. But I really, really want overcrank really badly (I'm an action sorta guy). And from what I can tell, people here seem to mostly want the Raw just to get the 4k @ 60fps and 2k @ 120fps. Will you have any way, even in the future, for us to get those without going out the raw port?

[Jannard]

Shawn... we are working on that, but I've now learned not to post anything prematurely. :-)

Jim

[Dave Neathery]

I know what was posted @ DVinfo by stuart and DVXuser by jarred.
None of those posts include Jims signature signature (wow, that's a pun! -;) about "all specs prelim and can change at anytime" and still I feel...

...incredibly lucky being a rez-holder.

Really.

Have anyone tried buying an SD digibeta deck lately?

I mean... Really!

I have my whole Red package (without support, matteboxes et al) way below the price point of a single digibeta deck.

OK. The pricepoint is a bit stiff compared to a DV deck, but still...

Complaints?

Not me!

Gunleik
No kidding! If I could get back what I paid for may present equipment, I could buy a LOT of Red cameras, fully equiped too.

Dave

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... we are working on that, but I've now learned not to post anything prematurely. :-)

Jim

Fair enough, thanks! In the meantime I'll just drop down to 2k @ 60fps for my overcranking needs. If you guys could get the 120 that would be awesome. Did you see 300? The dancing oracle was shot at 250fps in a water tank! I guess if we wanted to do such things we'd still have to rent a film camera. But 120 would still look freaking cool.

[Robert P. Hogue]

I can see that I really got screwed on accessories for my HVX-200, like $2500 cdn for a 100GB firestore, while RED is offering 320GB for $900, that's over three times the storage capacity for just slightly more than a third the price. And at 1080p Redcode, it will give almost the same amount of recording time as 1080 DVCPRO HD. So even thought the RED is more expensive of an initial outlay, it gives you far more bang for your buck.
The Sony and Panasonic guys must be looking at Red accessory prices in shock and awe.



Whats remarkable about the RED camera is that it has opened the world of professional film making to so many different levels of film makers with varying degrees of experience and resources.

With the gate wide open, this unfortunately brings varying levels of expectations about operating costs. I find the complaints about the prices being raised or higher than expected to be disheartening.

I think we should all keep 2 important things in mind:

1. RED never promised prices in advance and made every attempt to set expectations by informing us everything is in flux... from prices to specs.

2. The announced price list, for the most part, is remarkably lower than other professional gear on the market.

So while we all drool and dream about the projects we plan on shooting with our cameras... everything from weddings to feature films, lets keep in mind RED set out to build a digital cinema camera, not a handy cam that you can bolt $50 sony batteries to.

[Joel Kaye]

The Sony and Panasonic guys must be looking at Red accessory prices in shock and awe.

Good point. By the time you rig out a HVX to really work it's still cheaper than RED but it creeps up there. And the image quality isn't going to be on the same planet.

I'd be pretty freaked out if I was Sony or Panny because what do they come back with? Something as good for the same price? Too late - game over. Even if it was half price would you really ditch your RED for a panasonic or sony version? Probably not - because you've already got your workflow etc.

RED getting 1500+ units out there is pretty friggin' big deal I think... is anyone buying a Varicam? Maybe a few. Maybe not.

[Jim Arthurs]

Good point. By the time you rig out a HVX to really work it's still cheaper than RED but it creeps up there. And the image quality isn't going to be on the same planet.

From the rez tests I've done, if you distill every USABLE blip of rez from the HVX you'd barely get a true 1200 by 800 or so... the RED is a bigger leap over the HVX (approx. 4.4X the rez of the HVX) than the HVX is over SD (approx. 2.6X the rez of SD)... and that's just in resolution... not looking at any other factor like the superior compression of REDCODE and sensor dynamic range and bit depth...

[Joel Kaye]

and that's just in resolution... not looking at any other factor like the superior compression of REDCODE and sensor dynamic range and bit depth...

Yep - resolution, I'd argue, isn't even the biggest benefit of the equation (though it's nice). The dynamic range, the codec, 4:4:4 and 35mm lenses are all going to have a huge impact on how pleasing the picture is.

And somehow I think the noisy HVX shadows are gonna be history too - haha.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The dynamic range, the codec, 4:4:4 and 35mm lenses are all going to have a huge impact on how pleasing the picture is.

Of all the things that I've been hoping for the Red camera to deliver, the most important without a doubt is the 11 stops of latitude, please Red team, pretty please! :help:

[Joel Kaye]

Of all the things that I've been hoping for the Red camera to deliver, the most important without a doubt is the 11 stops of latitude, please Red team, pretty please! :help:

That and the lenses. To be able to shoot outside in harsh light will seal the deal. When DP's see that film is truly going to die (possibly a slow death). Next season of 24 should be all RED. :-)

[Alexander Nikishin]

That and the lenses. To be able to shoot outside in harsh light will seal the deal. When DP's see that film is truly going to die (possibly a slow death). Next season of 24 should be all RED. :-)

Definitely, I'm really hoping for the promised 11 stops (not just hoping but it expecting hehe) as well as the ability to boost the asa up, and a solid line of lenses.

I can't imagine how awesome it will be to boost the asa cleanly up to 800/1,200 with some super speeds if needed. The only dissapointment I have with the Red One is the fact that I can't shoot any slow mo aside from cropped 2k at 60fps.

[Joel Kaye]

I can't imagine how awesome it will be to boost the asa cleanly up to 800/1,200

I don't remember reading about that. If that's accurate it would be mind boggling in the way it would change how you could shoot.

[Alexander Nikishin]

There was talk of it, no promises, just talk from the Red team never the less.

[James T Mather]

Yeah, but the more you generally boost video chips gainwise, the more it compromises the "look" in general. the image becomes more "video" like - ref ; Miami Vice, Apocalypto -

Hidef systems, treated well, will deliver, nice pics : ref : Superman Returns.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yeah, but the more you generally boost video chips gainwise, the more it compromises the "look" in general. the image becomes more "video" like - ref ; Miami Vice, Apocalypto -

Hidef systems, treated well, will deliver, nice pics : ref : Superman Returns.

I don't know about "more video like" ,but gain definitely creates noise, ugly amounts of noise with most cameras.

But I distinctly remember one of the Red crew, Jim to be exact I believe, stating that they could cleanly boost the asa to 800.

I can only praise and welcome the ability to shoot in lower light situations if needed. Ofcourse, I'll always expose a scene properly if possible, but if I'm limited to the amount of light I have for the shot ie. wall power only, I'd love to be able to boost my speed.

[Robert P. Hogue]

I'd be pretty freaked out if I was Sony or Panny because what do they come back with? Something as good for the same price? Too late - game over. Even if it was half price would you really ditch your RED for a panasonic or sony version? Probably not - because you've already got your workflow etc.

RED getting 1500+ units out there is pretty friggin' big deal I think... is anyone buying a Varicam? Maybe a few. Maybe not.

Red has at least a 3 year lead on its principal competitors, maybe more. It's no longer a matter of just getting a 4k camera out there, but they will also have to provide an equal or better feature set at an equal or lower price than the RED, something of which Sony has no intentions of doing for under $100 grand, and there is no talk of a competing product from Panasonic as of yet. There will still be a place for 3 CCD cameras for some time for news gathering, and live event coverage, but the future is in CMOS imagers. That being said, the demand for 3 CCD cameras like the Varicam and Cinealta will fall dramatically, and so will prices, and as well companies like Dalsa and Panavision will be forced to dramatically re-think their business models - how about a huge market for Panavision to rent their lenses to Red One owners?

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have to wonder if Sony or one of the other big players has hired Karl Rove to do their mis-information campaign for NAB. The folks that have serious investments in current systems will likely echo catchy myths all over the exhibit floor. On behalf of all RedHeads I suggest we nod quietly and chuckle under our breath, ending each exchange with the suggestion that the "expert" we are chatting with stop by the RED booth to see the 4k projection...

If only we could be there to see the looks on their faces as they watch it :sick:

[Michael Hastings]

The RED team's accomplishment is remarkable, but I wouldn't just sneer at the engineering talent employed by Sony, Panasonic and Ikegami. In fact they don't have to be priced lower - I would suggest that if Sony brought out a camera at NAB with the exact same feature set and called it the BLUE with a price tag of $29K they would sell twice as many as RED. Rental houses, schools, large corporations, find it much easier to justify purchases from established vendors, and many individual users still appreciate the good things these companies have done over the years. It is also easier to tell a client you are shooting with the latest Sony camera than to ease their fears about shooting their project with this revolutionary product from a total newcomer. I know which one I want personally, but that doesn't change the reality of a lot of the other parts of the equation.


Red has at least a 3 year lead on its principal competitors, maybe more. It's no longer a matter of just getting a 4k camera out there, but they will also have to provide an equal or better feature set at an equal or lower price than the RED, something of which Sony has no intentions of doing for under $100 grand, and there is no talk of a competing product from Panasonic as of yet.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think that when Sony and Panasonic etc. have THEIR 4k camera ready at a price point that even comes A LITTLE BIT in the price territory of RED, that at that moment, RED already will be an established vendor and a big well-known name...

[Chris Kenny]

I think that when Sony and Panasonic etc. have THEIR 4k camera ready at a price point that even comes A LITTLE BIT in the price territory of RED, that at that moment, RED already will be an established vendor and a big well-known name...

Yeah, people don't realize how small this market is. Red isn't really taking on Sony, but a single division of Sony which sells fairly low-volume products. If Red ships over 1500 units this year (which is what will happen if they fill all reservations by the expected Sept-Oct timeframe), that will represent a significant fraction of the digital cinema cameras shipped. Given this, it shouldn't take long at all for them to be accepted as a serious player.

[Joel Kaye]

If only we could be there to see the looks on their faces as they watch it :sick:

I'm just going to hold up my Titanium R like it's a crucifix. (I wonder if it'll burn their skin if you touch them with it?)

[Dominic Jones]

The dancing oracle was shot at 250fps in a water tank! I guess if we wanted to do such things we'd still have to rent a film camera. But 120 would still look freaking cool.
Just FYI Shawn, whilst you're still in rental territory, there are digital options for high framerate shooting - the Phantom HD camera does something like 1000fps @ 2k, I think (I can't remember the exact specs off the top of my head, but it's around that mark).

Not sure what you do with the data though! It may be that it's still cheaper for the odd shot to go back to 35mm...

Good to hear you're working on the overcrank issue Jim - I'll second Shawn on being very, very interested in the high framerates, but I'd love to be able to shoot in RedCode at those rates, and avoid all the Raw Port business. Here's hoping!...

[LighthouseMEdia]

I sincerely hope they at least give us the option of bumping ASA speeds WAY UP, that way creatively the option is at least there. Better in some cases to be able to make an adjustment and at least get the shot and have a little grain. ALthough this raw format also makes thing itneresting, we'll have to wait and see how many stops +/- we can compensate for underexposure in RedCine.

[Phil Becque]

Don't hear our friends across the pond complaining? 9,975 pounds sterling for an ultra hi-def camera - nice...

Well Sharky me 'ol mucker you've got a very good point there! Even with a few exotic bits it's still under 13,000 GBP which is frankly outf***ing standing!! And I do come from the lower 'prosumer' end of the film biz food chain.

You pay more than that for a poxy set of Remote Control Velux Window blinds for your conservatory for petes sake! And that's all made out of re-cycled plastic and string! Yuk!

Or for that money you could get three second hand Jaguar S types in British Racing Green (if you were planning a bank job) and needed some swift - but stylish wheels at a bargain and somewhat dispensable price. (Assumming you were successful).

Or you could give that sort of money to one of the most useless wankers to ever walk the planet - who would take all of ten minutes to 'find you a New House' - they're called Estate Agents here - I think you call them Realtors or something like that. Ggggrrrrrrrrrr !!

And just don't get me started on Architects - I mean it now - don't!!

13K pounds for a 'pucker' Ultra High Def Digital Cinema Camera plus accessories - I'll take 4 please!

All sweetness and Tranquil_Light

[PaulClements]

Have to agree, prices always look better in pounds than in dollars (Of course by that I mean smaller). And like Phil says when you live in rip-off britain importing the camera actually brings it's price more inline with prosumer options. I looked at the HVX last year and was being quoted about £5000 - £6000. By comparison the Red body would come in at about £7500 once you discount the reservation and allowance (Not including import duty and tax).

Most things in this country are not usually a direct import price such as red. Usually we'd have to pay about £15000- £16000 for the body, it looks slightly less than the $17,500 mark but of course it's just a con and is far higher.

The price of a full decent RedOne outfit will be far less than a new car (At least a half decent one) and will be far more usable.

[Mike the beginner]

One good reason WHY we are getting a great deal is that Jim Jannard has (so far) kept the selling of red within red HQ.

I would not like to imagine the price of a red one from some of the usual retail outlets in the UK. I think that was just another cool calculated and brilliant piece of selling that landed all of us overseas reservation holders with a far bigger bonus than the reservation bonus already announced.

My guess is the effective bonus we (in the Uk) get is probably nearer $7,000


Mike the beginner

[Martin Drew]

Makes a nice change to get a decent deal rather than feel like you are being fleeced. The other nice thing is whenever I see dollar prices, I always initially forget and think I am looking at a sterling price, then I do the maths and am pleasantly suprised... Works every time.

M

[Martin Drew]

My guess is the effective bonus we (in the Uk) get is probably nearer $7,000

It may well be even more than that if you compare it with the likely increase in cost if you had to go through a distributor. But don't forget that we also take on increased risk, if there is a problem with the camera it may well be a lot more hassle getting it sorted.

M

[Mike the beginner]

It may well be even more than that if you compare it with the likely increase in cost if you had to go through a distributor. But don't forget that we also take on increased risk, if there is a problem with the camera it may well be a lot more hassle getting it sorted.

M

Agree it will take longer and there is the cost of insurance. But i trust Jim Jannard will ensure the overseas buyers will get a pretty good service.

At least we dont get ripped off with the software updates. I remember going to shell out a lot more for my home cinema receiver, a tag McLaren, until i found out that we would get charged £500 every time there was an update.

With a good attitude to customers like that red might well end up becoming

"The best camera company in the world"

Mike the beginner

[Brook Willard]

Just to confirm - the LCD itself is actually 1280x720.

No: I was mistaken.