Nikon mount question

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I´m still wondering how long it will take to switch from my 17-35mm Nikkor to a Red lense. And can I do it in the field, a hotel room or do I have to find a vacuum chamber?

Cheers,

Jochen

[Stephen Williams]

I´m still wondering how long it will take to switch from my 17-35mm Nikkor to a Red lense. And can I do it in the field, a hotel room or do I have to find a vacuum chamber?

Cheers,

Jochen

Hi,

Going from PL to Nikon is not an issue at the Nikon lenses are not accurately collimated. With still camera lenses you focus by eye.

You will be able to swop the mount yourself, however don't expect the focus marks to line up, as 1 piece of dust will throw out the alignment.

FWIW I would not rent a camera that the owner swopped mounts himself!

Stephen

[Ivan G]

FWIW I would not rent a camera that the owner swopped mounts himself!
Stephen

So in other words you don't do it yourself????

[Stephen Williams]

So in other words you don't do it yourself????

Hi,

It depends on the market you're working in. When I first had a Fries Mitchell I used to swop mounts, it's OK for Eye focussing on longer lenses, but forget it if you are working using wide angle lenses. They have very little Depth of Focus.

Stephen

[donatello b]

some of this might be affected by what Gramme has come up with on focus assist ??? if the the lens is not seated correctly then perhaps the focus assist strickly goes by what it see's hitting the sensor ( as in it is based on image sensor is processing) ??? so you might have the lens foucsed to 10 ft and the object is 5 ft but it is in focus ...
unlike film where both the optical view finder and distance to film place has to be EXAC.. the viewfinder could look in focus but the image hitting film plane is out of focus or optical view finder could be off ( out of focus) and the image hitting film place is correct and in film you usually find out when you view your film ...

we'll know at NAB how it works ...

[Stephen Williams]

some of this might be affected by what Gramme has come up with on focus assist ??? if the the lens is not seated correctly then perhaps the focus assist strickly goes by what it see's hitting the sensor ( as in it is based on image sensor is processing) ??? so you might have the lens foucsed to 10 ft and the object is 5 ft but it is in focus ...
unlike film where both the optical view finder and distance to film place has to be EXAC.. the viewfinder could look in focus but the image hitting film plane is out of focus or optical view finder could be off ( out of focus) and the image hitting film place is correct and in film you usually find out when you view your film ...

we'll know at NAB how it works ...

Hi,

That is probably correct, but that won't help you when you're on a dolly and the actor is moving! You have to know which was to turn for 8'!

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

RED One is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) camera system with a high resolution EVF and LCD (both 720p), with a dedicated focus assist function. The combination of all those elements obviously changes the field workflow dynamics quite a bit. I believe those who are not entirely used to working in a WYSIWYG environment are in for a pleasant surprise and a short learning curve as they re-think their approach to shooting with RED One.

As a both-workflows guy, I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on the RED One system and seeing how the EVF, LCD, and focus assist dance together. Something tells me that they will dance well, and it will take WYSIWYG digital cinema and EFP to a higher level.

NAB should be real fun...

[donatello b]

"that won't help you when you're on a dolly and the actor is moving! You have to know which was to turn for 8'!"

but you might be able to work around it ... if your AC has the RED LCD he could then put the marks on follow focus by what is IN focus on the LCD not by the feet on lens barrel ?

if i knew focus on LCD/EFV was correct then i "might" decided that on X day i'm switching to nikon mount and on Y day i'm switching back to PL and we'll have to use LCD/EFV focus over feet marks ?? however at start of a PL lens project i would have a tech make sure PL was seated correctly ...

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

That´s terribly exciting.

Still - to get back to my original question - would you even consider to change from the 300mm Red to some Nikkors on a set?

That is: All lense characteristics etc. aside. Just the practical process.

Jochen

[Stephen Williams]

RED One is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) camera system with a high resolution EVF and LCD (both 720p), with a dedicated focus assist function. .

Hi Gibby,

When you see you have overshot the focus or turned it the wrong way it's too late, the shot is ruined!

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

Pfff... just fix that in post... :/

[tj williams]

The new red one is without the bolts circling the front. Last year talked to RED Team members about eclair 16mm mount change system on ACL which puts the mount against a solid notched plate and holds in place with an outside ring which tightens it in place. The new red looks like we are seeing a similiar ring around the base of the mount. The accuracy of the machining being in the .001 range you should be able to exchange mounts without significant back focus problems. I have used the Eclair system and it works well I'm very optimistic about the RED mount interchange scheme.

[Stephen Williams]

Pfff... just fix that in post... :/

Hi Brook,

I know many people who own post houses that would say the same thing!

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

When you see you have overshot the focus or turned it the wrong way it's too late, the shot is ruined!

Stephen

Well, that's certainly true Stephen, in certain types of production environments. Cine-style production with actors hitting marks definitely calls for the greater precision you described. I think that, keeping in mind the WYSIWYG capability of RED One, and the wide variety of style and genres it enables, that there are multiple EFP uses for RED One where the shooting style and DOF requirements free up the shooter to be able to essentially do run 'n gun EFP, with medium to deep DOF, using the 720p EVF/LCD and focus assist on the fly. The vast majority of productions worldwide are EFP-style, and most of them require shallow DOF only for a few specific shots. Critical focus is obviously easier for the shooter to achieve in a medium/deep DOF shooting environment - thus true WYSIWYG mobile EFP production is enabled.

Once we get our hands on RED One and test out the EVF, LCD, and focus assist, we’ll know the parameters of how much WYSIWYG shooting is enabled. To get back to the thread mainstream, I think RED will pay close attention to tolerances as they design and machine their parts. They've said that lens mount changout will be relatively easy in the field.

[chuck colburn]

Stephen,

I guess you haven't heard of the blown split filter that is used in post production houses.

Chuck

[tj williams]

RE Nikon mount, what about the engineering company that wants to make a nikon mount which will control af lenses? maybe wait for nab to see?

[Michael Brennan]

RED One is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) camera system .....

WYSIWYG? not yet, but it will be when there is a way to view live 4k.

Mike

[Steve Gibby]

WYSIWYG? not yet, but it will be when there is a way to view live 4k.

Mike

OK...then how about this:

"4k or 2k downconverted live via HD-SDI output to 1080p for WYSIWYG monitoring"

and

"4k, 2k, and 1080p downconverted live to 720p EVF and 720p LCD for WYSIWYG monitoring".

I don't think you need live 4k monitoring to achieve effective WYSIWYG monitoring of parameters like framing and focus - 1080p and 720p will do just fine. If you're waiting for affordable, mobile, live 4k monitoring in order to trust in a WYSIWYG acquisition environment, then you're in for a long wait.

[Michael Schrengohst]

So, I wonder if I should get the RED 300MM which I have reserved or
just use a Nikon telephoto lens? Since we don't know anything yet I guess we will have to wait and see??

[Steve Gibby]

I'd get the RED 300mm if you can afford it. It's cine glass, and my hunch is that it will be a very sharp lens - well made. The 4k footage I saw from the RED 300mm at the L.A. screening looked stellar. I've ordered one and I can't wait to test it out. Nikon lenses are excellent. I've used them since 1969 on various of my camera systems. A Nikon 300mm would undoubtedly gibve you good results on RED One, but IMO I personally don't think the results would be as good as the RED 300mm lens.

[Paul Hazlett]

There will be a learning curve. Like Gibby Said, the workflow will change and untill you get the hang of RED, there are going to be blown shots.
So you go back to one and do it again.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I'd get the RED 300mm if you can afford it. It's cine glass, and my hunch is that it will be a very sharp lens - well made. The 4k footage I saw from the RED 300mm at the L.A. screening looked stellar. I've ordered one and I can't wait to test it out. Nikon lenses are excellent. I've used them since 1969 on various of my camera systems. A Nikon 300mm would undoubtedly gibve you good results on RED One, but IMO I personally don't think the results would be as good as the RED 300mm lens.

Thanks Gibby!

[Evin Grant]

A Nikon 300mm would undoubtedly gibve you good results on RED One, but IMO I personally don't think the results would be as good as the RED 300mm lens.

I'm not dissing the Red 300, but I seriously doubt you could tell them apart. In fact that's a compliment, the Nikon 300mm f2.8 ED is a fantastically sharp lens and the fact that the Red 300 can compare is equally impressive.
I think the decision on which to buy should be based on the mount you're standardizing on. If you plan on using the Nikon mount for most of your general shoooting then it makes more sense to buy the Nikon lens so you don't have to change the mount in order to change lenses, the same goes for the Red 300 if you're primary optics are PL mount primes or the Red 18-85.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Thats the $64,000 question. I already have for Nikon - 35 MM f-2,
60 MM Macro 2.8, 28-200 Af and the Tokina 12-24 I may just shoot
with those and see if the RED lenses are needed later....
I was wondering if the RED 300mm = a Nikon 300MM on coverage?

[Steve Gibby]

I think the decision on which to buy should be based on the mount you're standardizing on. If you plan on using the Nikon mount for most of your general shoooting then it makes more sense to buy the Nikon lens so you don't have to change the mount in order to change lenses, the same goes for the Red 300 if you're primary optics are PL mount primes or the Red 18-85.

I think you make a real good point there. A lot of people moving up to RED from the DSLR world already have quality 35mm still lenses. If they’re on a tighter budget, and can’t afford to make the move to cine lenses, a Nikon or Canon mount for RED One gives them the ability to shoot 4k on down footage. If someone isn’t moving over from the DSLR world, but can only budget out enough funds to buy a basic RED One system and some affordable lenses, then the 35mm still lens option gets them in the game. From the very start RED recognized that and decided to make RED One as flexible as possible. – thus the 35mm still mount options were announced at the very beginning of RED.

I think someone approaching adoption of RED One needs to ask themselves: What are my production goals with this camera? What genres and styles do I need to shoot? What equipment options will fit in my budget and still get me to my goals?

If someone already has a lot of PL mount cine lenses, and accessories for them, RED comes stock with a PL mount, so It makes obvious fiscal sense to stick with PL.

If someone owns no lenses, but is very experienced, has a big budget for lenses, their goals are mostly high-end cine-style production, especially narrative cinema, then I think they’d be wise to invest in cine lenses rather than 35mm still lenses.

Guys like me that do a wide range of cine-style and EFP style productions, and also have a still photography background, naturally want every lens on the planet! In a perfect world we’d be able to afford to buy them all. Unfortunately that’s an impossibility, so our approach will be one of “the right car for the track”. I own a fairly good collection of cine, EFP/ENG, and 35mm still lenses. For each project with RED One I’ll sit back and ask myself “Hmmm…which lens and accessory setup makes the most sense for this project?” then set the camera up that way. If I don’t have the right lens, I’ll rent it for that project.

I think the PL mount cine lens options for RED One are fairly broad right now, and will only increase looking forward. Most cine lenses are monstrously expensive. Obviously RED is out to change that paradigm by offering what they say will be quality cine lenses at real good prices. I hope they expand their lens offerings.

Any comparison of the RED 300mm and the Nikkor 300mm will have to wait until both can be tested on a RED One camera. Even then, as usual, a lot of the judgment will necessarily be subjective. Lens tests have to be objective to a certain point to quantify the tech, beyond that lays the realm of subjectivity. There will be design parameters of the RED 300mm that specifically enable cine-style production – that’s what it’s designed for. The Nikon 300mm was designed for 35mm still photography, but can be well adapted for cine-style work. I'll be one of the very first guys to test a RED 300mm lens on a RED One camera - very shortly on RED #8. When I do, I'll post my impressions on this forum. I expect the lens to be real good...

It’s the options and flexibility that attracted me to RED One. As a shooter I just want to use the best lens for the job at hand. I love all good lenses…I’m a glassaholic!

[Michael Schrengohst]

That's the problem, so am I.
I will have to call RED HQ and see if I can apply
my lens deposits to the camera instead.
I may hold off on the RED lenses as I still do
a fair amount of still work....
But if the RED can be adapted for still work
I may think that way as well....

[Evin Grant]

I was wondering if the RED 300mm = a Nikon 300MM on coverage?

Yes, the coverage would be identical.

My plan is to own a very comprehensive Nikon lens selection and offer the PL mount primes and Red lenses as an additional option for my higher end clients. Eventually I'll purchase a prime set (Hopefully a Red prime set) for PL myself, but I have access to a Super speed set for the time being if necessary.

[Joel Kaye]

Any comparison of the RED 300mm and the Nikkor 300mm will have to wait until both can be tested on a RED One camera.…I’m a glassaholic!


I think the fascinating thing is going to be side by side tests of Nikkor vs. Cine lenses projected at 2k. Obviously breathing will be an issue to be tested.

But this review put a spendy Zeiss up against much less expensive alternatives and you can't see much difference between most of them
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/index.htm

So it'll be very interesting to see these guys go against $50k lenses.

[chuck colburn]

Yes, the coverage would be identical.

My plan is to own a very comprehensive Nikon lens selection and offer the PL mount primes and Red lenses as an additional option for my higher end clients. Eventually I'll purchase a prime set (Hopefully a Red prime set) for PL myself, but I have access to a Super speed set for the time being if necessary.

Hello Evin,

I'm not sure I follow you on that. If the RED 300 lens is designed for the RED camera format ( 1.85 ) then wouldn't the Nikor 300 be an eqvuilant of a 480mm due to the 1.6x (appx.) factor?

Chuck

[Michael Schrengohst]

? Thats what I was wondering? Wouldn't a Nikon 180MM more or less be closer to the RED 300MM?

[Joel Kaye]

? Thats what I was wondering? Wouldn't a Nikon 180MM more or less be closer to the RED 300MM?

And won't you be grabbing the sweet spot of that 180mm lens? Oh the tests are going to be so interesting...

[Evin Grant]

300mm is 300mm no matter what format your shooting on.
In 35mm still terms the both lenses will be equivelent to 489mm.

[Joel Kaye]

300mm is 300mm no matter what format your shooting on.
In 35mm still terms the both lenses will be equivelent to 489mm.

Oh yeah - that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. That's a monster zoom. I'm not sure that needs to be in my bag for most of what I'll be doing.

[Michael Schrengohst]

OK, that makes sense....
Evin, looks like the lens testing will never end???....
Thanks

[planet e]

i'm with you, gibby. i have the sickest collection of lenses. sadly, they are canon EF mount, i got bit hard when i bought an XL2 with an EF adapter, which means i either have to switch everything over to nikon or sell them to pay for some of these RED goodies. my specialty lenses include the legendary 200mm f/1.8. i hate to give that lens up. it's big bad and beautiful and the sharpest lens i own. heavy, though. not terribly practical.

we need a chapter of Glassoholics Anonymous....so that when i decide i can't live another moment without that sigma 200-500mm 2.8, someone can talk me down....

[Michael Brennan]

OK...then how about this:


I don't think you need live 4k monitoring to achieve effective WYSIWYG monitoring of parameters like framing and focus - 1080p and 720p will do just fine. If you're waiting for affordable, mobile, live 4k monitoring in order to trust in a WYSIWYG acquisition environment, then you're in for a long wait.

Lower res dispalys are fine for judging framing edges but do not reveal fine detail within the frame that could be troublesome. ie finger prints on product pack shots.

Anything but one to one pixel monitoring of focus for 4k or HD is not fine, it is a compromise and the term WYSIWYG is far from appropriate in my view.

Look at the number of soft shots on HD docs that are acquired on 2/3 inch systems with compromised viewfinders. Red will have less depth of field and higher res!

One to one button is handy but not wysisyg more like 1/3 wysiwyg.
Focus in the field (without focus puller) for run and gun with 2/3 inch HD is very difficult as it is. Acquiring with less depth of field for large screen delivery will require new level of focusing skills, even if new viewfinder is 1280x720 pixels which is average res for current 2/3 cameras.

Large screen displays be it cinema screen or +42 inch panels are a serious challenge for self pullers!

Better to be circumspect about what you can promise clients rahter than mislead them with WYSIWYG term. When I shoot 1920x1080 HD without a focus puller and the subject to camera distance is changing during the shot I do not gaurantee focus without a full res monitor for verification.

Apparent depth of field (ie as it appears on screen) is narrower the higher the resolution of the display (up to the native res of the recording).
1:1 display will be usefull for judging 4K depth of field on projects for large screen display.

None of the above is a deal breaker if you approach with caution and good communication with client.


Mike

[Joel Kaye]

Anything but one to one pixel monitoring of focus for 4k or HD is not fine

Remember that Graeme has invented a new focusing system that none of us have seen yet. Until you see that I think the word "anything" in your above statement is premature.

[Michael Hastings]

From what I understand the guys at Birger engineering already have a mount for the EF AND EF-S lenses that allows control of iris, focus, (and maybe zoom) and are just waiting for final specs on the front end of the RED to make a RED specific mount for it.



i have the sickest collection of lenses. sadly, they are canon EF mount, i got bit hard when i bought an XL2 with an EF adapter, which means i either have to switch everything over to nikon or sell them to pay for some of these RED goodies. my specialty lenses include the legendary 200mm f/1.8. i hate to give that lens up. it's big bad and beautiful and the sharpest lens i own. heavy, though. not terribly practical.

we need a chapter of Glassoholics Anonymous....so that when i decide i can't live another moment without that sigma 200-500mm 2.8, someone can talk me down....

[Steve Gibby]

Mickjoebill,

I think you made some valid points...for 35mm narrative cinema work destined for the big screen. Features and narrative cinema productions get a lot of press, but the fact is that the vast majority of pro-level productions worldwide are non-hardlined EFP productions that are not destined for the big screen. I believe that non-hardlined EFP productions will be the vast majority of projects that RED One will be used for. RED One is designed with the flexibility to be a cine-style and an EFP style camera system, depending on the format chosen, lenses, and accessories used.

Drilling deeper into EFP production, the majority of EFP productions are non-hardlined EFP, with small crews, that are largely shot outdoors (sports, travel, nature, etc.) in available light at exposure levels between f5.6 and f11. Shallow DOF is only sought for specialty shots, with medium to deep DOF being the norm. A focus puller is not need or wanted - operators rack their own focus. A 720p EVF or LCD, with an effective focus assist utility, should be very effective in this style of shooting – effectively WYSIWYG. Even if these EFP projects are being shot in 4k REDCODE RAW, with S35mm lenses, the higher light levels should enable f5.6 to f11 apertures for the medium to deep DOF that is sought, and the 720p EVF and LCD plus focus assist should easily enable operator racking of focus.

IMO, with the vast majority of productions being non-hardlined EFP, not destined for the big screen, but in fact destined for a maximum of 1080p distribution (BluRay, HD-DVD) or 1080i/720p HDTV distribution, and the numerical majority of RED One projects being that genre, the 1080p or 720p live monitoring of RED One is WYSIWYG in my book. For clarification, RED isn’t saying WYSIWYG…I am saying it.

I work in both cine-style and EFP style workflows. I can appreciate what you’re saying about narrative cinema critical focus when seeking shallow DOF…with actors hitting various marks. It’s a definite set of challenges and monitoring for critical focus becomes very important. I think we should reserve judgment on RED’s capability in that workflow until the camera is tested via 1080p and 720p monitoring, and the RED focus assist, which RED has said will be very effective, can be tested.

If someone can’t live with 1080p or 720p monitoring of their 4k project, and is determined to have realtime 4k monitoring of those projects, then I guess they will have to wait a few years for 4k monitors to be available/affordable/mobile, and for cameras that enable live 4k monitoring.

[Michael Brennan]

Mickjoebill,

I can appreciate what you’re saying about narrative cinema critical focus when seeking shallow DOF…with actors hitting various marks. It’s a definite set of challenges and monitoring for critical focus becomes very important. I think we should reserve judgment on RED’s capability in that workflow until the camera is tested via 1080p and 720p monitoring, and the RED focus assist, which RED has said will be very effective, can be tested.
.

And what is the difference in an actor hitting a mark and a doc cameraman grabing a shot or trying to pull focus on a subject that he has no control over? The doc cameraman has a harder time of it on 2/3 inch HD whereas the drama gig has marks and hopefully a focus puller.
Now shoot the doc 4k on Red, reduce the doc camermans depth of field as well as screen the material on a large screen and focus is hairy.

I am not critising RED focus assist but as it is unlikely to deliver 1080p res and well short of 4k.

The underlining point is that it is down to the camera operator to pull focus on moving subjects and this is more difficult with 35mm depth of field than 2/3 inch even when using a 24 inch monitor. Sure you can see more clearly on a big monitor or maybe Red Focus assist, if it is soft or not, but it is too late by then. The skill required to twidle the barrell as well as pan and tilt is not available in everyones armoury or should that be "fingeroury"

DoF 50mm lens 27 deg on Red at f2 at 10ft is 14 inches
DoF 20mm lens 27 deg on HD at f2 at 10ft is 7ft (source Panavision)


Not such an issue with SD transmission but for HD delivery the audience see more res than the camera operator! so making slight focus corrections that are unseen on SD are more obvious on HD.


Sure give it a go, and explore new genres and techniques, I will! but the director or client should be aware that if camera or subject distance is altering the shot could be soft.



Mike

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

I already understand the points in your post...I work with them every day. I already acknowledged that narrative cinema in low light, wide-open apertures, and resultant shallow DOF, presents challenges to critical focus. Those are no secrets and common knowledge among us veterans.

You didn't address a single point I made in my Post #39 about the high ratio of EFP to feature productions, the high ratio of daylight EFP productions to artificial light productions, the resultant higher f stops between 5.6 and f11, the resultant medium to deep DOF requirements and enablement for those productions. I work with that nearly every day too, as a director and shooter, achieving exactly what I described, in 1080p 2/3". I’ve also worked extensively with 35mm, so believe me, I have the flick on the production issues with that.

I think your time would be better spent trying to school someone who has less experience than me. I’m a 30-year veteran of over 800 national television programs as a director and cameraman, and a multiple Emmy recipient who works daily on high profile national and international programs for 12 different networks. You’re not telling me anything I didn’t learn decades ago - and have been using ever since.

I see you just joined this forum yesterday. You’re pretty aggressive for a new guy on a forum. I think you’ll find that this is a good learning place full of knowledgeable people.

[donatello b]

" am not critising RED focus assist"

basically there is nothing we can say about REDs focus assist ...
until we see it we only have the RED teams statement = it will knock your socks off ... if you haven't been disappointed with the RED camera images which they said it will knock your socks off ( glad i wore sandals to screening) .. i believe focus assist will be excellent !!

[Michael Brennan]

Gibby,

Perhaps you missed that I was not only reffering to Cinema production.
My original post reffered to any production destined for large screen
Quote
"Large screen displays be it cinema screen or +42 inch panels are a serious challenge for self pullers!"

By +42 inch panels I was reffering to HDTV transmisison blue ray ect.

In reply to your post about RED being used on productions with f5-f11,
we know that 1080p is in use now at f5-f11 and in context of the original post about watching on large screens, there are focus issues.


In my view soft shots can take place on HD due to poor or rushed craft and inadequte viewfinders even at f5-f8 and only become apparent on large screens.

Yes, it is common knowledge in 1080p land but given RED will introduce 4K run and gun to a wide market for the first time since WWII it is worth exploring.

Would move the discussion on to hear from anyone with experience of shooting run and gun with 35mm without focus puller for large screen display.

I'll be first to applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than audience.

cheers

Mike

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

Focus is obviously a challenge at all resolutions from 1080p up to 4k – and beyond. Those who have worked in those resolutions understand that. Those who haven’t will have a learning curve to deal with. That said, there are tons of variables that make focusing easier or more difficult: lighting, subject matter, DOF needs of individual shots, etc. Let’s bring that into the context of RED One. RED one is capable of shooting in 720p, 1080p, 2k, 4k, and 2540p. RED One is also capable of using B4 2/3” lenses, S16 lenses, 35mm still lenses, and S35 lenses. Let’s take this analysis a little further. RED One, by its scalable and flexible nature in size, accessories, formats, and lenses, becomes a different tool with each combination of format, lens, and accessory package. RED One is thus capable of being used in an broad range of cine-style and EFP style productions – and will be.

Now lets add something else into the mix: experience level of those who use RED One. RED One has a wide range of potential uses and genre applications, thus it will be used by users with a commensurately wide range of experience levels – everything from grizzled old veterans down to newbies graduating up from the 1/3” prosumer world. Solving the challenges will depend on each user’s experience level and if they have experience in the particular genres they are trying to shoot in. The biggest challenge for any RED One user will be for them to have as broad a range of skill sets as the camera will enable. Why use a Swiss Army Knife with a ton of tools, if you’re only planning on using the basic knife blade that is your traditional comfort zone?

Those moving up from the 1/3” prosumer ranks will definitely have a learning curve as they use RED One: lenses, DOF issues, critical focus, etc. Those moving over to RED One from the traditional film ranks will have their own set of challenges: re-thinking their workflow for what RED’s technology enables, learning EFP production if they want to maximize the earning potential of RED One, learning to trust electronics, etc.

Is the RED Team aware of the focus challenges inherent in 1080p up to 2540p acquisition? Yes they are. On this forum and the other RED forums for the past 15 months the RED Team has repeatedly acknowledged the challenges of focus at those resolutions, and said that their 720p EVF, 720p LCD, and new focus assist function will be extremely effective in achieving critical focus at the resolutions that RED One shoots. At this point we need to wait for the cameras, EVF’s, and LCDs to ship, then test out how they work with the focus assist at all the resolutions RED One shoots. I have one of the first cameras coming (#8), and I’ll be doing exactly that. At NAB, in just 4 weeks, RED has said they will demonstrate 4k footage, working cameras, workflows, etc. We’ll then be able to see exactly how the focus assist/EVF/LCD all dance together to achieve critical focus. Until then, relying on past focus challenges as a rationale for taking “critical focus can’t be done by one person” or “ I don’t believe 35mm run ‘n gun is possible” positions is simply making judgments about RED One’s capability that will probably be disproved at NAB. Mobile hi-def EFP guys are used to racking their own focus in apertures of f5.6 to f11. Guys who have only worked in the big crew, cine-style environment have a hard time getting their minds around the concept that electronic technology (focus assist) will now enable one person mobile EFP production in resolutions up to 4k. I work in both cine-style and EFP style workflows and I’m willing to evolve with what technology enables.

You’ll applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than the audience? If you’re unwilling to accept that a 720p EVF or 720p LCD in tandem with a good focus assist utility can achieve critical focus at 2540p down to 1080p, then perhaps you joined the wrong forum two days ago, and RED One isn’t the camera for you. Perhaps you should just wait for a camera that sports a 2540p EVF and LCD. There are a bunch of us professionals here (and beyond) who feel that RED has engineered an effective solution to the critical focus needs of their camera. NAB will either prove us right or wrong.

This thread has been threadjacked long enough. It’s a Nikon Mount thread on the Lens Forum. If you’d like to discuss these issues further with me, let’s take it offline. My email addresses are on my web sites (links below).

[Joel Kaye]

You’ll applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than the audience? If you’re unwilling to accept that a 720p EVF or 720p LCD in tandem with a good focus assist utility can achieve critical focus at 2540p down to 1080p, then perhaps you joined the wrong forum two days ago, and RED One isn’t the camera for you.

Exactly. The camera is seeing 4K. If Graeme is using all that detail to detect critical focus areas and then passes it along in a way that's viewable in a 720P display then it's a done deal. Critical 4K focusing off the monitor/viewfinder.

I've never gotten what's confusing about that.

[Michael Brennan]

Gibby,

My view is different from from yours, I knowledge there are issues with self pulling focus on HD using existing kit on projects for large screen display.

Not deal breakers but hassles. I am simply using this experience to ponder shooting 4K.

I did not say that I was unwilling to accept that the EVF would work, I said I want the same or more res as the viewer, if EVF can do that using new ideas with 720p then fantastic it will be the crown jewel in an exciting and innovative camera.

In the 2nd post you though I was agressive and this post you say I shouldn't have joined the RED forum because (para phrasing) I am unwilling to accept that new advances can be made with viewfinders and thus RED isn't the camera for me.

I have never suggested that the viewfinder is pivitol in the decision as to use RED or not.

Have I written anything critical about RED or the actual viewfinder at all?
And if I was critical isn't this is what forums are for... to share views?

Off to another thread

Mike

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

My points centered around reserving judgment on the capability of the RED EVF/LCD/focus assist until after NAB and field testing of them. That's the time to either praise or criticize the EVF/LCD/focus assist effectiveness. I also expressed my belief that the RED Team has been well aware of the challenges of focus in the resolutions the camera will shoot.

Our whole discussion started when you called me out on my using WYSIWYG in a post. I didn't come after you, but rather you came after me when I used that term. It then accelerated into you making posts that were designed to educate me on the challenges and intricacies of critical focus in resolutions from 1080p up to 4k. I let you know that that wasn’t necessary – I have the flick on those issues.

We view the issues and possibilities differently, and that's fine. Everyone forms their opinions based on their experiences and readings. I'm fine with that. At this point let's just agree to disagree.

Yeah...that's what forums are for, to discuss and offer constructive criticism. That's what we've been doing, so this forum is functioning exactly as it should.

There are a lot of people now getting interested in RED. There are also those of us who have been interested since day one. There have been hundreds of long threads on RED forums since RED was announced. Most issues concerning RED have deeply discussed. When someone first gets interested in RED, I think the search tool on RED forums is indispensable. It's a way to read what has already been discussed, including the posts by RED Team members, and get up to speed on the current info level of all the issues. What you and me have discussed on this thread has been thoroughly discussed on multiple threads before.

No worries...good luck in your research of the issues. If you can make it to NAB to check out RED first hand, that would be a very good move.