Could this be True?

[purefilm]

I was talking to my buddy about the Red tonight and he told me that he thought the HPX3000 had more dynamic range than the Red. he had used the Red a couple day ago and said that he was getting less dynamic range than he expected.

I wonder if he was doing something wrong? Is there a common mistake that people make that could result in loss of Dynamic Range?

Then he told me that he was shooting in a grocery store at full light and was able to expose inside and outside through a window with the HPX3000?

could there be any truth to the claim that the HPX3000 has more dynamic range? I would like to think not, but I have know idea if this could be true.

We are shooting with the Red on sunday. I would like to know if there are any tips I could bring to the table that could enhance the image?

[Jason Ing]

if his account is true, it can be attributed to other factors then a supposedly great dynamic range of the camera... was the window tinted or colored glass, what time of day was it, weather conditions (cloud cover?), etc. I can get a properly exposed interior/exterior shot with my DSLR depending on some of the aforementioned factors. A light meter reading of both the inside and outside would be more accurate... and a range test even more accurate.

Anecdotes should be taken with a grain of salt... or bag of salt... depending on who does the story telling. :)



I was talking to my buddy about the Red tonight and he told me that he thought the HPX3000 had more dynamic range than the Red. he had used the Red a couple day ago and said that he was getting less dynamic range than he expected.

I wonder if he was doing something wrong? Is there a common mistake that people make that could result in loss of Dynamic Range?

Then he told me that he was shooting in a grocery store at full light and was able to expose inside and outside through a window with the HPX3000?

could there be any truth to the claim that the HPX3000 has more dynamic range? I would like to think not, but I have know idea if this could be true.

We are shooting with the Red on sunday. I would like to know if there are any tips I could bring to the table that could enhance the image?

[sander kamp]

Hard to tell from just one user's experience. Was he looking at the camera's LCD or at processed footage? Dynamic range if fine with RED, certainly good enough for high quality footage.

One tip: don't over-expose with RED. Check your histogram or waveform for blown-out highlights and remember there is more detail in the shadows than the LCD will show. Better to go for a slightly dark image on the LCD and correct that in post.

[ChristopherKenworthy]

There are many ways to create bad footage with the Red One. If you haven't planned well, or researched the camera, and don't light for the camera, you may get a relatively low dynamic range. But if you understand the camera, and light with its particular way-of-seeing-the-world in mind, you can get massive dynamic range. And at 4K, rather than 1080P.

When we first turned the camera on, a week or so ago, we just pressed record and ran around shooting anything we could. Half of it looked great. Half looked dreadful. After a week of testing, everything we shoot looks gorgeous. Truly, truly gorgeous, with masses of dynamic range. You have to test, experiment, learn and apply, and also master the workflow. So many RAW shots look vile to the untrained eye, but with the right colourist the end result can be mind-blowing. We shot stuff long after sun down, and in minutes colored it to look like it was shot at magic hour.

[Brian Broz]

No question the HPX3000 is a truly amazing camera, especially with DRS (Dynamic range stretch) and of course it records 10bit AVCIntra to P2 cards...which can be run 1080P via HDSDI to a 1920 monitor. All instant with no post processing required to see full resolution / latitude etc.
Of course RED shoots RAW so the real image quality is seen off the R3D files in post. One can't judge the true resolution / latitude / colorimetry by the RED camera's 720P output

[Phil Bates]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the issue of dynamic range is more complicated than just an F-Stop range. How does the camera perform at both extremes? Most video cameras clip abruptly at the high end, giving weird posterized colors in sunset shots, for example. Red gives creamy roll-offs which makes all the difference and gives a more organic film look.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Martin Jäger]

if you are consequently using the histogram and try to avoid single channel clipping you'll get great images. i'm constabtly underexposing and i'm still getting
plenty of infomation out of the shadows.

martin

[sparkhope]

if you are consequently using the histogram and try to avoid single channel clipping you'll get great images. i'm constabtly underexposing and i'm still getting
plenty of infomation out of the shadows.

martin

I suppose this is through trial and error. I was under the impression that the histograms are based on the 720p output and not the redcode images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case how can you really use the histograms without doing some mental extrapolation of what the 4k would/should look like. From the footage I've gleamed, I'd say the RED is as good in underexposure as it is bad in overexposure. My biggest gripe thus far has been loss of detail in highlights. Detail in the shadows seems fairly good as long as blue noise isn't over the top. Just my 2c. Lately, the thing that's got me worried a bit though is the jello image. We're in preproduction on a dance film and I'd be interested in understanding how the RED will handle handheld of high energy dancing....

btw: anyone know if RED team suggested 1080p preview sometime in the future? or Histograms based on the raw image?

[Graeme Nattress]

Comparing DR without a properly calibrated test chart is fraught with issues. Also most video cameras "play" with the image to boost the blacks to help you see in the shadows. We ask you that you do this yourself, rather than default to it. That can give the impression that you're seeing more into the shadows than you really are.

Graeme

[Hans von Sonntag]

I don't know the Panasonic HD cameras but the Sony F900R is very familiar to me and I must say there are only two things the F900R does better: Ergonomis and turnaround times.

IMO 4K oversampling on a 2K/1080p picture and custom tweaking the parameters in the RAW development is the big trick of the RED. In this regard DR is plenty enough, epecially in the highlights. Please note that noise can always be traded for DR.

Hans

[Steve Sanacore]

It could be your friend was not exposing for the highlights properly and then not processing the raw footage properly. Was the person who was posting the footage experienced with processing raw digital image data? In my limited experience with raw red footage, it is amazing how much you can manipulate the image data to bring out detail, shadows, highlights etc. You need to think in terms of negative data with raw files compared to shooting reversal film with a standard HD video camera..

Please correct me if I am off base here.

Thanks for listening!

[purefilm]

Since we are shooting with the Red on Sunday, I will take these comments in consideration and watch to see what my friend is doing to get his results. It may be that he is just not totally understanding the RAW concepts.

I trust his input, he has been working with film as an 1st AC and DP for over 10 years. I just think this is another example of the fact that Red is somethings New, and even the seasoned pro have to accept that there is a learning curve to the camera.

Please anymore tip would be greatly appreciated.

[Joel Kaye]

Has anyone actually done a side by side test with RED vs. any decent camera?

[chuckt]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

[Mike Prevette]

zing!

[purefilm]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

So because the RED is $17500 are you saying it is not a professional camera? The truth is that this camera certainly is a professional camera. My opinion is that this camera will have a large learning curve for amatures use to pro-sumer cameras and have had no experience with film. Red has a similar work-flow as film. I believe this camera is a competitor with the, F23, Dalsa, Genesis, ect,,

[sander kamp]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

The RED One is not really a $17,500 camera. I don't know what comes with the Panasonic but with RED you need to buy a storage option, a LCD and/or viewfinder, all kind of attachments and then you end up somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 for a basic package.

edit: just had a look on the Panasonic website and apparently it only comes with a on-board LCD.

[Johnny Friday]

Pretty much same with the HPX -- you have to buy P2 cards--and it has a lot of slots--i don't recall how many, but enough....lens, monitor---i believe, but could be wrong that it comes standard---for $48k with a viewfinder...and it produces a beautiful image and the files can easily be converted to .mov for FCP.....same as an HVX

....so i guess that makes the camera a $48k ++++ camera

[Andrew McCarrick]

and it has a lot of slots--i don't recall how many, but enough
5 slots.... with 32GB cards.... over 2 1/2 hours of record time. Twice that in about 6 months, with 64GB cards.

[The Subsidiary]

Pretty much same with the HPX -- you have to buy P2 cards--and it has a lot of slots--i don't recall how many, but enough....l Five Slots.... (@ B&H) 32g P2 card: $ 1,549.95..

[Hans von Sonntag]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

Arri IIC, used for $2000 outperforms most modern digital cameras. Price tag is no valid sign for performance these days.

Hans

[jbeale]

Has anyone actually done a side by side test with RED vs. any decent camera?

I did some indoor test charts with a Red and 8 Mpixel DSLR (Canon 20D) although it was very much a "measurement" session, I have no pretty pictures to compare by eye.

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/index.html

I haven't analyzed the results because I'm waiting for firmware Build 15 which is supposed to be a significant change. But if you just want to know if Red is a serious camera and can it be used to make very high quality images, the answer should already be apparent from the work of many other people (yes, and yes).

[gnomer]

I see Artbeats is going to shoot on RED. Right Phil?

[Phil Bates]

I see Artbeats is going to shoot on RED. Right Phil?

Yes, we are looking forward to start shooting in early summer! We're also interested in representing footage from other Red shooters.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Michele Gavazzeni]

May be but who cares the AJ-HPX3000 is an HD 10Bit 422 ENG camera.

The only RAW recording format of the RED One makes it a better camera... add all the other Red's futures and it is a total unfair comparison.

[Andrew McCarrick]

What I would like to see would be a comparision of the Dalsa Origin II/Evolution against the RED. Both shoot 4k, both RAW.... Dalsa at almost twice the Data size and on a single CCD chip.

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Both shoot 4k, both RAW.... Dalsa at almost twice the Data size and on a single CCD chip.

That would be a comparision! But also that would make no point since Red One is meant for both renting world and personal camera.

While i haven't notice of Dalsa cameras owned by privates. Do you?

[Andrew McCarrick]

That would be a comparision! But also that would make no point since Red One is meant for both renting world and personal camera.

While i haven't notice of Dalsa cameras owned by privates. Do you?

Nope,.... you can't buy the Dalsa unfourtantely, they use a business model similar to Panavision (rental only).... it's just maybe it would be worth renting a Dalsa (for certain projects) depending on how well it fairs against the RED. If there's no significant difference that it wouldn't really be worth it, but if there is a difference certain projects might call for the Dalsa.

[Corrado Silveri]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

You must be joking.
:w00t:

[Charles Angus]

I saw Dalsa footage recently (on HDCAM, unfortunately) on a Christie 2k. The short was bad and the cinematography was mediocre, but from what I could tell the camera was fantastic. Very, very nice image. Better than RED, from what I've seen, but then again it is an uncompressed RAW recording vs. compressed RAW recording. Dalsa's philosophy is very different from RED's - they want to take it slow, ensure everything is perfect, as opposed to forging ahead and trying anything. There's something to be said for both approaches.

Words in favour of Origin's image aside, I haven't tried Dalsa's RAW conversion software. I haven't seen any footage from it (except that once). I don't know what it would cost me to use one. I don't know about its workflow options.

It's not RED's RAW workflow that sets it apart (other cameras do that), it is its philosophy.

[Andrew McCarrick]

What I would like to see would be a comparision of the Dalsa Origin II/Evolution against the RED. Both shoot 4k, both RAW.... Dalsa at almost twice the Data size and on a single CCD chip.

Wow I just realized I was way wrong about the Dalsa Camera data rate..... it's 400 MegaBytes where as the RED is megabits (about 200-300 Mb)..... so the Dalsa is a couple thousand times more data.

[Graeme Nattress]

But that's over-inflated as they store 14bit data in 16bit words, so two of those bits are "blank".

If you want you can go to Dalsa website and download some images from the camera as 16bit Tiff. Take a look with the same level of scrutiny you do to RED images....

Graeme

[Ethan Cooper]

It's not RED's RAW workflow that sets it apart (other cameras do that), it is its philosophy.

That would be the reason why there are so many heated discussions centered around Red, it's all philosophical. That explains a lot.
________
Vaporize (http://vaporizer.org/)

[Steve Sherrick]

Panasonic HPX300 is $48000 camera (body alone). Rents for $1200 /day.
1920x1080, 10-bit 4:2:2 color sampling . It uses a 2.2 million pixel 3-CCD block and records using the new AVC-intra codec to capture true native 1080p images at 24p, 25p & 30p frame rates. It can also record in DVCPRO HD.
This is a professional camera, used by videographers who make a living with it.

You cannot comapre this to RED, which is appropriately priced at $17500.

Guys, read through all of ChuckTs posts some day. It makes you wonder if he is a Sony/Panasonic dealer, or is just really anti-RED. Sorry Chuck, no offense, but I'm seeing a pattern. All well and good, and you're entitled to your opinion, but it seems odd how blatant the attacks are. I could be wrong.

[Stephen Williams]

Has anyone actually done a side by side test with RED vs. any decent camera?

Hi,

Yes an A list DOP compared Red with an F23 from Sony, the Sony had a greater dynamic range.

The F23 body costs about 10 times as much as a Red.

Stephen

[Scott Brown]

The Panasonic HPX3000 would be my next camera choice after the Red...in fact it may become my first as I'm really concerned about the post production workflow side of the Red at present + issues over audio noise and ease of use in the field.

At the end of the day we're all out to make a living here and time is money. Most of our work is for broadcast and will be screened at 1080 25p. Our clients i.e. the broadcasters are not going to pay me more for footage shot on a Red camera and there can be NO doubt that post is going to take a LOT longer on our Red. I'm NOT saying that we're going to cancel our Red order but I can see us needing a second camera for shooting a lot of our work that requires a quick turn around.

Anyone worked out how much longer Red footage is taking to post in comparison to HDCAM or DVC PRO HD?

I think if we could easily get a 1080P HD SDI version out of the Red camera then this would calm my fears over the lengthy post troubles.

Scott

[Jay A. Kelley]

I can render about 20 min of footage down to 1080p in one night. That's pretty good.

Jay

[Anthony Gratl]

Guys, read through all of ChuckTs posts some day. It makes you wonder if he is a Sony/Panasonic dealer, or is just really anti-RED. Sorry Chuck, no offense, but I'm seeing a pattern. All well and good, and you're entitled to your opinion, but it seems odd how blatant the attacks are. I could be wrong.

I've been thinking, and I posted once about it, saying somethings up with chuck and his posts.....so i don't think you're wrong steve.

[Kenn Michael]

I can render about 20 min of footage down to 1080p in one night. That's pretty good.

Jay

Re: Scott...

I can render out 20 minutes of 1080P in 1 hour at Standard quality which, even though it's not the best looking image you can get from a RED, it looks better than anything I've shot on any other HD camera (Varicam/F900).

[Harry Clark]

I think if we could easily get a 1080P HD SDI version out of the Red camera then this would calm my fears over the lengthy post troubles.

Scott
__________________
Midas Multimedia

OR 1080 scaled from the full sensor... like some of us have been clamoring for since day one.
Harry

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

Yes an A list DOP compared Red with an F23 from Sony, the Sony had a greater dynamic range.

The F23 body costs about 10 times as much as a Red.

Stephen

I could repeat 1000 times that we cannot compare apples to oranges,

but some people do not want to give up.

Also finally we should not forget that main difference between RED and

F-23 is that F-23 use B4 Lens Mount and record just HD at 1920x1080 pixels

and RED can use all types of PL 35mm cine lenses, all types 35mm still photo manual lenses, also B4 lenses, etc...

and can record 4K at 4520 (h) x 2540 (v)

http://www.red.com/skin/img/photo_zoom/redone_8.jpg
RED ONE

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/images/shoot/F23_bg1.jpg
Sony F-23

Here below are listed Sony F-23 description, specs

Sony F23 main specs:

- Sensor(s): RGB-3 plate 2 / 3 type HD Power HAD EX CCD>>Effective pixels (H) 1,920 × 1,080 (V)

- Output>>HD-SDI OUT>>Dual Link HD SDI (4:4:4 RGB BNC × 2) (the use interface box)

- Out monitor HD SDI (4:2:2 BNC × 2) (YPbPr)

- Image record to: The HDCAM-SR SRW-1 portable recorder.

- Progressive system: 1080/23.98PsF, 24PsF, 25PsF, 29.97PsF, 50P, 59.94P
(50P, 59.94P is YPbPr 4:2:2 record only)

- Interlaced : 1080/50i, 59.94i

F-23 description and features:

List Price Not Available

The F23 camera system is the pinnacle of Sony's 2/3" CineAlta™ line of 24P acquisition products for digital television and motion picture content creation. Developed for cinematographers, the F23 camera, is designed so that all controls, indicators and menus adhere to cinematography conventions. The camera system can be directly docked to a SRW-1 HDCAM SR recorder. When docked to an SRW-1 equipped with the optional HKSR102 board, the F23 can record, in addition to overcranking and undercranking, slow shutter and interval recording the digital equivalent of accelerating, linear or decelerating speed ramps, effects; users can see the results immediately on the set without any additional gear. In addition, the F23 provides choice of 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 1080P imaging. The F23 camera system offers the performance, creative control and flexibility cinematographers need, as well as a compact and rugged design to withstand the challenging conditions often encountered on location.


F-23 Features

1080P RGB 4:4:4 image capture and signal processing.
Intuitive film work-style architecture. Controls, indicators and menus follow cinematography conventions.
Variable Frame-rate in 1fps increments over and under cranking
- 1fps to 30fps @ 4:4:4 mode.
- 1fps to 60fps @ 4:2:2 mode.
- Interval recording (with ramp control).
- Shutter angle can be varied from 3.9 to 360 degrees.

High precision 14-bit AD conversion and high bit order digital signal processing for high latitude (dynamic range), and a accurate color reproduction.

Five preset plus custom gamma curves.
- One preset 10-bit "S-Log" gamma for ultra wide latitude
- Four preset hyper gamma curves.
- Cinematographers can create custom gamma curves.

High precision, reinforced B4 Lens Mount.

Compact and flexible design, the camera can be mounted in confined spaces and operated from any side.
- Top or rear, direct docking to the SRW-1.
- Dual link for tethered applications.
Included "Assistant's Control Panel" duplicates all the camera controls and indicators on the camera body.

Compatible with SR Motion; interval recording, select FPS, slow shutter and digital accelerating, decelerating and linear speed ramps.
Directly compatible with ARRI cinematography accessories.
12V and 24V DC accessory power outputs.
Camera setup can be saved to Memory Stick® media.

Sony F-23 SPECS>> (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/f23.shtml)

RED ONE SPECS>> (http://www.red.com/cameras)

Very soon in the following weeks I would be able

to show that RED ONE camera system CAN MOUNT Leica Noctilux-M 50 mm f/1.0

http://www.reportajes-jmserrano.com/leica/2.jpg
Leica Noctilux-M 50 mm f/1.0.

This lens is the most luminous series manufactured lens in the world for 35 mm photography,

featuring extraordinary traits, specially suitable for ambient light photographs under very dim luminous conditions,

being even able to make shots inside indoor spaces only lit with the light of a candle,

capturing the whole surrounding area with maximum sharpness and clarity.

This lens can even the fabled Carl Zeiss 50 mm f/0.7 manufactured for the NASA

and subsequently acquired by Stanley Kubrick – who adapted their mount for the 35 mm Arri cinematographic camera

and used them in the famous scene of the candles in Barry Lyndon film.

LEICA NOCTILUX-M 50 MM F/1: THE LAST EMPEROR>>> (http://www.reportajes-jmserrano.com/leica.html)

Then we could talk about TRUE, DR, 4K, HD and many other things...

[Scott Brown]

Thanks for the render times guys...I guess I'm just having a few sleepless nights ahead of our delivery day which isn't that far off. I'm 100% sold on the Red picture quality, it's just the workflow + audio issues I'm concerned about.

1080 scaled from the full sensor - you are correct this would really be the icing on the cake!!!! Is this possible with the Red or are there problems in making this option a reality?

I guess with Moores Law still holding strong it cannot be long before we solve the Red render time issues.

Scott

[Maz Mawlawi]

Scott,

A lot of people are hoping 1080P scaled from sensor. Hopefully RED will deliver. And I agree....RED's picture quality is great.....it's just the workflow that really needs improved.

[Steve Sanacore]

OR 1080 scaled from the full sensor... like some of us have been clamoring for since day one.
Harry

Yes Yes Yes!!! Please!

But I am not sure that the limitation of a 4K to 1080P frame is not too much work for the current processors in the RED camera. Down rezzing and processing each frame for color, DR, etc, at real time would be quite a bit of work I think.

Hope I am wrong though!