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Wayne Morellini
01-06-2013, 04:22 AM
Hi guys, just letting you know that I've started a thread in off topic forum on using a Redray Laser projector to make a multi touch Windows surface computer tabe.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?91941-Redray-Laser-Surface-Computer-Touch-Table-project

There didn't seem too much interest in redray table projection with the 70 or so readers over there, so I thought I would let you guys know.

James Kirst
01-08-2013, 05:56 PM
I have a friend who has a patent or two in this field. I helped do some early R&D. There are a bunch of issues with multitouch tables and I'm not sure it has much consumer potential with the competition from touch lcd displays and tablets. if the projector is ~10k plus the "guts" needed to get close to 4K resolution on the touch input, you're looking at a 20-30K street price for a nicely functional unit. If you want it to be small enough to fit in a reasonably sized house the short-throw projection lens will be like $20K by itself.

Jeff Kilgroe
01-10-2013, 09:51 AM
Microsoft already tried it an various sizes and form factors, even with multiple high-res displays. The table concept does have merit and some ideal uses, but there are still ergonomic hurdles and market perceptions to overcome. I have not been impressed with any of the table concepts I've seen yet and it's not even a question of the OS/ interface or software.. It's the tabletop workspace concept. I think smart tables and interactive table surfaces do have a place. I would look more to the interactive environment and entertainment sectors. I'd love it if restaurants and bars and tabletops and bar tops with games, videos, ability for patrons to control other things in the environment such as what TV channels they're watching on the overhead TV's, queue up songs in the sound system, message other people at the bar, connect and interact with their personal phones and other devices, etc.. make it all high enough resolution -- 220dpi or better "retina" with snappy response. For a bonus, throw in haptic feedback and you'd have a winner.

I would patent that above concept, but I know of two separate companies that claim to own the patent on it already -- One of them being Microsoft.

As for a tabletop in a workplace, not feeling it so much...

Wayne Morellini
01-10-2013, 09:23 PM
Oh, here you are, this is just a announcement post about the main thread.


I have a friend who has a patent or two in this field. I helped do some early R&D. There are a bunch of issues with multitouch tables and I'm not sure it has much consumer potential with the competition from touch lcd displays and tablets. if the projector is ~10k plus the "guts" needed to get close to 4K resolution on the touch input, you're looking at a 20-30K street price for a nicely functional unit. If you want it to be small enough to fit in a reasonably sized house the short-throw projection lens will be like $20K by itself.

If you have a look at the thread, you will see people making them for a couple hundred plus projector and computer of course. There are cheaper alternatives,

For me I'm looking at moving to something higher Res, but as it is, fullhd laser led projectors are less than $4k, but red laser and even fullhd LG Hector look like they are going to e around $10k.

Have a read of the threads and links.



Microsoft already tried it an various sizes and form factors, even with multiple high-res displays. The table concept does have merit and some ideal uses, but there are still ergonomic hurdles and market perceptions to overcome. I have not been impressed with any of the table concepts I've seen yet and it's not even a question of the OS/ interface or software.. It's the tabletop workspace concept. I think smart tables and interactive table surfaces do have a place. I would look more to the interactive environment and entertainment sectors. I'd love it if restaurants and bars and tabletops and bar tops with games, videos, ability for patrons to control other things in the environment such as what TV channels they're watching on the overhead TV's, queue up songs in the sound system, message other people at the bar, connect and interact with their personal phones and other devices, etc.. make it all high enough resolution -- 220dpi or better "retina" with snappy response. For a bonus, throw in haptic feedback and you'd have a winner.

I would patent that above concept, but I know of two separate companies that claim to own the patent on it already -- One of them being Microsoft.

As for a tabletop in a workplace, not feeling it so much...

Yes all things I'm aiming at over the last few decades, that is what I am getting at, rather than think of the work space in isolation, it opens up whole new uses in home use. The public space uses at bars etc, was one of the original areas I was aiming for years ago. But there are a lot more homes, that can use as many as they have PC's at the moment, plus one more, which is a bigger market. I'm actually interested in starting a company on this one day. Remember Startrek 1 , my own designs should be able to achieve that. But keeping it simple, I'm pointing out a few big cases. I've Bern on this for many years, just did not get to it, and being distracted by promises of companies that do nit deliver to mass market but overprice. I remember years ago, I had drawn up business proposal documents do do a number of things, then MS and Intel realised the same ideas waded in, did it wring and destroyed the market. You might think, why bother, when you see things like that coming at you over the horizon, but it is amazing how many ties big companies stuff up, and you could have die it anyway. Rather a big minded person in a small company than a small minded person out in charge in a big company. And chaotic feed back, yeah thinking about how to make it effective, yep just thought up a cheap effective solution, and just solved a few other things.

Wayne Morellini
01-10-2013, 09:24 PM
Jeff, I'm talking about the desk in the workplace, that you tilt up like a drafting table if you want.

Jeff Kilgroe
01-11-2013, 09:25 AM
Jeff, I'm talking about the desk in the workplace, that you tilt up like a drafting table if you want.

Yep, and that would be a great application too. The CAD market would eat that up if instead of dealing with large digitizer boards with a PC and monitor sitting next to it, you could work your stylus, puck, etc.. right on the board, which is the screen and has touch abilities, etc.. Add the ability to attach a secondary display or two that can be mounted overhead or to the side. Also allow for the display surface to lift up so paper drawings can be slid in underneath the transparent display glass so now we can make electronic mark-ups and see our digitizing progress right over the top of the paper drawing. It doesn't always make sense to, nor do we always have the ability to scan in a large format drawing to work on. Although, most architects and engineers send digitally these days, so a large format paper is usually just a formality and what we hold on a job site. ...still, the functionality shouldn't be ignored.

Of course, that concept would serve more than CAD users... Photographers, designers, etc.. Most of the concepts I'm thinking of, would rely on self contained screen tech and not something driving by projection.

Where I'm thinking this should all head to is fully interactive surfaces that can be adapted to any surface or shape, be it windows, tabletops, countertops, dance floors, office work surfaces, conference rooms, etc... I think it could be awesome and useful in so many forms. The least effective form, as far as I'm concerned, would be the traditional rectangular or square table though. Unfortunately, it's the logical first stepping stone for prototyping purposes and proof of the concept. Sourcing a 3.5 meter long crescent moon shaped LED screen with 220ppi density for a bar top would be near impossible at the moment. However, these applications are all coming, it's only a matter of time, and display manufacturing is also evolving. It's only a matter of time until the manufacturing allows us to order arbitrary shapes and sizes at the desired pixel density for such purposes. OLED is probably the best solution at the moment. SONY/SAMSUNG's joint LCD and OLED manufacturing can currently churn out approximate 100ppi OLED sheets in some decently large sizes -- up to about 4ft x 8ft or similar. Higher densities are available, up to 380ppi, but not at the larger sizes. One big hurdle we have in the near future is getting display manufacturers to start thinking outside the box, or rectangle or whatever...

Wayne Morellini
01-18-2013, 07:34 AM
Sorry I missed your reply Jeff.

Most of what you say is answered in the design I talk about, the table is a multiple display, unlike normal surface mock up, you can get leg room to sit as a normal desk, low profile screen. The cost of a 4k-8k 55-85 inch screen, compared to a projection system, or high performance laser, will be an issue for some time. While it's nice to have them on windows etc, the reality for the moment is that the table/work desk is practical for most of the work without sore arms. The large format can easily be scanned in and overlaid. With a pure color light source, effective rear projection is available on paper plans. The system could tip up as a room TV, but I forget if I mentioned this already. You can see there is some options already.

So, how much extra Red laser product can be sold until the other options catch up, that is the question. It is a bit of a promotion of the product.

Now, all this should be in the original thread.

paulherrin
01-18-2013, 08:05 AM
i hope you're working on a round table...

Wayne Morellini
01-20-2013, 06:14 AM
Nope, no round projectors either..

Wayne Morellini
02-12-2013, 04:08 AM
Jeff, have a look at this:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?91941-Redray-Laser-Surface-Computer-Touch-Table-project&p=1151690&viewfull=1#post1151690

Looking at doing a cheap projector.

Wayne Morellini
05-27-2014, 08:35 PM
Hi guys, just letting you know I've come across a heap of information and have updated the main thread.

www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?91941-Redray-Laser-Surface-Computer-Touch-Table-project&p=1371508&viewfull=1#post1371508