Redcode goals ?

[Rodrigo Lizana]

In order to select a good camera configuration it´s important to know how many fps is RedCode planning to handle in the future. For example if there´s no way to pass the 30fps barrier @ 4K in redcode, then the raw port makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, if the Redcode isn´t capable now but it´s going to do it on the future we might starting looking at the Red Ram with the raw port eyes (money).

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The camera itself just can't cope with processing the data for encoding 4K at > 30fps. Therefore RAW data from the RAW port is the only way to capture such things... RED RAM won't help in this respect, it's a FLASH based alternative to the RED DRIVE. RED DRIVE and RED RAM are connected via eSATA connectors. The SATA interface doesn't have the necessary bandwidth for RAW output (900MB/s). I would imagine that future generations of RED camera systems will gain the ability to encode 4K at faster rates onboard. Also, as storage options and interfaces continue to evolve and expand, there could one day be a way to capture the full 4.5K uncompressed RAW feed at up to 60fps right on camera from the RAW port or something that attaches there to an intelligent and very fast / high capacity solid-state device. Nothing that a little time and continued evolution of electronics won't solve.

Personally, I would like more details on the RAW port and what it can interface to. $6500 is a bit steep, but if I can connect to standard PC or Mac with 10G or quad-link Infiniband or 10GoE connection and dump the RAW data right to a 14~20 drive RAID-5 array made of 500GB hard drives, it may just be worth it to shoot 2K uncompressed @ 120fps. 4K @ 60fps is cool, but not as practical or useful in the long run (IMO). OTOH, the way I understand it, we can currently shoot 720p scaled from the 2K sensor window at 120fps and record that to RED DRIVE. Sure, it's only 720p, but I bet it's the nicest looking 720p out there right now and 120fps could have some nice uses.

[Graeme Nattress]

We're still in development in all these areas, so please hold on a little while longer while we continue our R&D, and we'll be in a much better position to explain everything, and the implications, at NAB.

Thanks,

Graeme

[Brook Willard]

My uneducated guess is that the only way to surpass 4K@30p REDCODE RAW in-camera involves a processor upgrade.

Do you shoot 60p daily? It's almost certain that you'll be able to rent a RAW port and large RAID from your favorite rental house when the camera ships. Taking the camera to a house, having the RAW port installed for a day and shooting your high speed footage on rental equipment seems like the smart decision... at least by me [assuming you don't constantly need 60p].

Remember that the cost of shooting uncompressed RAW does not stop with the $6500 RAW port. You will also need to buy a significant RAID [physical size, storage capacity and price are still unknown]. Once you're done shooting, you'll need to take the ~973MB/s [4.5K@60p] and load it onto a massive permanent drive array. We're talking 57GB per minute. Unless you already have a 2K+ workflow in place, it's fairly unreasonable.

In my opinion, uncompressed RAW is a speciality option through and through. I am not everybody, of course.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That's another interesting question... Will rental houses be able to install the RAW port? Or is it a RED factory service only? But yeah, renting a RED One equipped with the RAW port and a capable capture system would probably be the most logical solution if it's only an occasional thing.

I do intend to shoot 60p on occasion. However, doing it onboard at 1080p is just fine. 4K @ 24p/30p will fit my needs 99% of the time anyway. For me the drawing factor to the RAW port is the potential for 120fps @ 2K uncompressed. But this would be cheaper to rent, maybe. And when renting, there's other options like the Phantom that can do high res and much higher than 120fps. ...So, I suppose it depends on needs.

It will be great to see what comes out at NAB. I have high hopes for a lot of these extra possibilities for the RED ONE.

[Brook Willard]

I personally expect that rental houses will be able to do it. Hell, they can swap movements in film cameras. They usually handle all of their own maintenance and repairs. While installing the RAW port may be a little much for the average RED owner, a shop with properly [RED] trained technicians should be able to handle such a task.

[Steve Freebairn]

Red team, one solution would be to create a red system that hooked to the dataport via whatever connection it is and was basically like a dual quad xeon that compressed the 120fps material to Redcode Raw. then the hdds requirements wouldn't have to be so high and the box would provide the processing power that the camera needs

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Looks like the best option for slowmo is going to get a 435 and scan it at 4K and then color match it to the Red One. Just wish the limit would be 48fps which is the speed (or lower) most of the movies uses for inserts/details/etc. For example the Moviecam SL (top speed 40fps) is being used in here as an A camera. Lots of inserts/details are shot at 36/40 fps...sometimes 32. Everybody knows it won´t go 60 or 150, and that´s when the 435 comes in but it would be great to know that you´re going to need only one camera for the whole movie (except your very high speeds sequences).

[Brook Willard]

You could just shoot 2K at a higher frame rate. The difference between RED 2K and RED 4K will be smaller than the difference between RED 4K and scanned 35mm 4K.

If you want to maintain the same depth of field, just do what you need to do in 2K/S16mm to match. For example...

S16mm: 25mm lens @ 10' = DOF 8'6"-12'1" @ F:1.4
35mm: 50mm lens @ 10' = DOF 8'7"-12'1" @ F:5.6

These two lenses should have approximately the same FOV. Just light the hell out of it when you have to shoot 2K. Obviously you'll need even more light for the higher frame rate.

[I Bloom]

My uneducated guess is that the only way to surpass 4K@30p REDCODE RAW in-camera involves a processor upgrade.


It could be that, but it could also just need to optimize the software. In some cases a 2X speed up is a pretty easy thing to achieve by switching software written say in C and compiled to software written directly in Machine Code (at least for what they call the Inner Loop). There is a great book called Zen and the Art of Code Optimization, that explains how all that works. In Red's case it may be a combination of code that they've written and systems that they design to run on their specialized hardware and programmable gate arrays. I'm hoping that sometime soon they will anounce that they can do it all at 60p and also give us 2K Scaled back. That's the hope.



Do you shoot 60p daily? It's almost certain that you'll be able to rent a RAW port and large RAID from your favorite rental house when the camera ships. Taking the camera to a house, having the RAW port installed for a day and shooting your high speed footage on rental equipment seems like the smart decision... at least by me [assuming you don't constantly need 60p].

You might not shoot 60 everyday but I surely shoot 36 fps almost every day. Those frame rates between 30 and 36 are really useful to adding a touch of grace to a shot without being recognized as slowmo. I'm more concerned about being able to do that right in camera whenever the moment grips me. Its not something that I want the production to spend thousands on.



Remember that the cost of shooting uncompressed RAW does not stop with the $6500 RAW port. You will also need to buy a significant RAID [physical size, storage capacity and price are still unknown]. Once you're done shooting, you'll need to take the ~973MB/s [4.5K@60p] and load it onto a massive permanent drive array. We're talking 57GB per minute. Unless you already have a 2K+ workflow in place, it's fairly unreasonable.

In my opinion, uncompressed RAW is a speciality option through and through. I am not everybody, of course.

We need overcranking with 4K compressed. If thats not in the near future, I'm still going to be pushing hard for film.

Ian Bloom
http://www.ianbloom.com

[Stephen Williams]

You could just shoot 2K at a higher frame rate. The difference between RED 2K and RED 4K will be smaller than the difference between RED 4K and scanned 35mm 4K.

If you want to maintain the same depth of field, just do what you need to do in 2K/S16mm to match. For example...

S16mm: 25mm lens @ 10' = DOF 8'6"-12'1" @ F:1.4
35mm: 50mm lens @ 10' = DOF 8'7"-12'1" @ F:5.6

These two lenses should have approximately the same FOV. Just light the hell out of it when you have to shoot 2K. Obviously you'll need even more light for the higher frame rate.

Hi Brook,

Bear in mind the 25mm lens @ 1.4 has to have roughly 3 times the resoloution of the 50mm lens @ 5.6 which I think is unlikely. So the 2k area will always seem to have more DOF. This is IMHO one of the biggest issues of smaller sensors.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

[edit: mis-read your post]

Of course, it's definitely unlikely. It's just one "solution" to an interesting problem. Will the average viewer notice the lens resolution change or the DOF change more? More or less than 35mm film grain? It's a tough call.

Time to shoot a test! Someday.

[Thom Steinhoff]

Rental houses, if you are listening and you are getting 5 cameras. Get at least one with a Raw port and figure out what to hook it to. Then Rent out the solution for all of us to use on our our Slow Motion days.

It would be even better if we could then Re-encode the the RAW we shoot into Redcode so it just drops into our workflow (assuming we are editing Redcode Quicktime files in place)

[Chris Gearhart]

Then Rent out the solution for all of us to use on our our Slow Motion days.

The best solution for me on those types of days is a good nap. :clown2:

Seriously, great idea Thom.

[Curran Giddens]

I am also very interested in any news about the external RED-RAID. My decision about camera configuration (even camera purchase), is based on RED-RAID.

Here is what I proposed a while ago on dvxuser:

Make the RED-RAID dual-use with user-replaceable 3.5" SATA drives. If you could use the RED-RAID as a desktop online storage system and for recording from the RAW port, more people will be interested.

For those who rarely need overcranked 4k, you can use the RED-RAID as an online storage system. When you need overcranked 4k, you take out the drives and put in a new set. Record overcranked 4k, and copy data over to separate drive when done. Now you can put back the drives you took out (probably need to be in same slots as before), and you have your online storage system back.

If RED sold the RED-RAID bare (with no drives included), they would not be responsible for hard disk related problems. If there was a secure way to manually switch between having the hardware RAID controller on/off, you could even use RAID software to configure the RED-RAID how you like. Seems like a pretty versatile solution to me. I don't know very much about these things, like if it is even possible to have a hardware RAID controller for recording without a computer, and still be able to have user-replaceable drives (not hot-swappable--that would be expecting way too much). Is it even possible to have a manual switch (very secure so you don't switch it by accident) that could turn the hardware RAID controller on/off.