RED-RAID anyone?

[Curran Giddens]

Is there anyone else here still hoping for the RED-RAID? I was planning on using the RAW port to record 4k 60fps and 2k 120fps. Am I the only one a little disappointed about the $6,500 price for the RAW port and no info about RED-RAID? If the RED-RAID is no longer planned, and the only way to get 4k 60fps or 2k 120fps is to use a $100k+ third-party DDR, I'll have to scrap my plans of doing 4k vfx all day in the studio.

[Brook Willard]

Here's a post I just wrote for this [clicky] (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=941) thread:


Do you shoot 60p daily? It's almost certain that you'll be able to rent a RAW port and large RAID from your favorite rental house when the camera ships. Taking the camera to a house, having the RAW port installed for a day and shooting your high speed footage on rental equipment seems like the smart decision... at least by me [assuming you don't constantly need 60p].

Remember that the cost of shooting uncompressed RAW does not stop with the $6500 RAW port. You will also need to buy a significant RAID [physical size, storage capacity and price are still unknown]. Once you're done shooting, you'll need to take the ~973MB/s [4.5K@60p] and load it onto a massive permanent drive array. We're talking 57GB per minute. Unless you already have a 2K+ workflow in place, it's fairly unreasonable.

In my opinion, uncompressed RAW is a speciality option through and through. I am not everybody, of course.

I know it's not specifically written for you, so there will be some irrelevant information in there. You seem to have a very specific goal in mind.

If your concern about shooting REDCODE RAW is related to proper keying instead of higher frame rates [compression = horrible for keying as we all know], I'd tell you not to worry. I [and many others] pulled the cleanest key we've ever pulled from REDCODE RAW compressed stills that were posted once upon a time. And REDCODE RAW's only gotten better since then.

If your concerns for uncompressed RAW are strictly dollar-oriented, remember that ~973MB/s figure. You need a very significant infrastructure in place to handle that kind of data - RED or not.

[Curran Giddens]

My concern has nothing to do with REDCODE RAW, only higher frame rates. I was already planning on scaling up the 2k 120fps footage to 4k 120fps in software (when I need 120fps). I guess my main concern is not the price of the RAW port, but the lack of any info about the plans for RED-RAID. I want to use the camera for 4k vfx studio work with lots of overcranking.

I need to know if the RED-RAID will ever be made (sometime next year?) before I decide to get the RAW port (or the camera for that matter). There is just no way I could ever afford $100k+ for a third-party DDR. I don't mind waiting for the RED-RAID, I am not going to use the camera myself until the RED Zoom lens is ready anyway. But, if there are no plans for making the RED-RAID, then there is no reason for me to get the RAW port.

[Brook Willard]

Well the RAW port will certainly hook up to something. Whether that's handled by RED or a third party remains to be seen.

[Robert Jackson]

If your concerns for uncompressed RAW are strictly dollar-oriented, remember that ~973MB/s figure. You need a very significant infrastructure in place to handle that kind of data - RED or not.

Don't underestimate what he just said here. Working with these kinds of data rates and this level of data storage is not just going to be costly, it's going to be a substantial piece of engineering that will require attention and maintenance by someone whose job is the dedicated care of your camera's data. You aren't going to be shooting solo with this kind of rig.

For almost all of us, Redcode is the only practical way to shoot these resolutions.

[david farland]

With you on this one Curran!

For RAW, 2K x 120fps is 40% of data rate of 4.5K x 60fps giving data rate of 390MB/sec. I think!

I'd build this system with two different sub-systems. And not try an build a 10TB-1GB/sec monster

First would be a high bandwidth/low volume Raid 0 to capture and hopefully (scratches arse) manipulate the files in edit.

Second would be Raid (scratches again) 1 for low bandwidth/high volume data storage. Question here is how much of this 2K x 120fps do you want on hand.

Last question to anyone is can REDCINE/CODE ingest this raw code because I'm sure 2K@120fps put through redcode would be sweet?

DF

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Last question to anyone is can REDCINE/CODE ingest this raw code because I'm sure 2K@120fps put through redcode would be sweet?

I've always assumed that what you capture from the RAW port would still be processed via REDCINE into REDCODE or other desired format before you edit. The purpose of the RAW port is to capture the RAW, UNCOMPRESSED stream of data that is above and beyond what the internal processors of the camera can handle. Therefore you can get the full 4.5K sensor area in the capture and you can go up to 60fps if you want or up to 120fps using the 2K window area. There may be some special case scenarios where someone may want to capture this way for complete uncompressed images, but most who are interested are probably only interested for the higher frame rates.

I'd love to shoot 120fps at 2K with my RED, but with the cost of the RAW port and having an additional system capable of 1GB/s capture, I think it more economical to rent a Phantom HD or similar when needed. Much higher frame rates and still at 2K. I would think the RAW port makes more sense for a rental house config or something that a larger production company with several RED Ones would own. For most of us small guys who are buying one or two cameras and usually operating with skeleton crews and sometimes no crew, this option makes absolutely no sense. Unless you're a hobbyist that just wants to tinker with cutting edge cool toys and you have lots of money to burn. If you need enough overcranked footage where you can justify the cost of the RAW port and companion system, perhaps you should also consider the purchase of a Phantom instead.

[Thom Steinhoff]

...what you capture from the RAW port would still be processed via REDCINE into REDCODE ...

This would be a must for me and not I'm not looking to build out this infrastructure.

I want to shoot Redcode, on my Red onto Ram / Drive day after day. Then, when I need slow motion, I RENT a Red Raw solution from a Red happy rental company (Camera with Raw port and Raid array), shoot the slow motion scenes, then using RedCine convert the footage to Redcode to ingest with the rest of my footage, return it, and get back to shooting on my own camera.

That way, all of my footage is the same, I don't need a monster infrastructure that just sits there most of the time, but I still get the highest quality slow motion known to man!

Balancing how much slow motion footage I want with $$ per Rental day against $6K+$100K--in my mind the math is easy.

[Robert Jackson]

I want to shoot Redcode, on my Red onto Ram / Drive day after day. Then, when I need slow motion, I RENT a Red Raw solution from a Red happy rental company (Camera with Raw port and Raid array), shoot the slow motion scenes, then using RedCine convert the footage to Redcode to ingest with the rest of my footage, return it, and get back to shooting on my own camera.

Exactly. When you need an exotic shot it's almost always better to rent than own. A lot of it depends on what you do, though. I have a friend who shoots a lot of underwater stuff and for him it makes sense to own things that you'd never find on my shelves. Of course, I can't even swim, so I need underwater enclosures that can hold both camera and operator. ;-)

If you're Sam Peckinpah's spiritual offspring you'll want to be able to overcrank at the full range of RED capture rates all the time. You'll also want a 1000mm lens so your heroes can walk towards the camera for a long time without ever appearing to get any closer. ;-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You'll also want a 1000mm lens so your heroes can walk towards the camera for a long time without ever appearing to get any closer. ;-)

Hehe.... Or at least a treadmill in front of a green screen if you're on a tight budget. :clown2:

[Robert Jackson]

Hehe.... Or at least a treadmill in front of a green screen if you're on a tight budget. :clown2:

Heh...stuff like that is where the cropped sensor modes on the RED are going to be handy. The Red 300mm lens will effectively be a 600mm lens. I used somewhere around an effective 400mm lens with HDV recently to shoot a train coming towards me and I got the heat ripples that look so cool with long focal lengths, plus the train came right at me for nearly 3 minutes. Way longer than I needed for the shot. It looks great, though.

Long focal lengths are fun. I have a C-mount to Olympus Zuiko adapter for my little Beaulieu Super-8 camera. I used to love mounting my old 90mm f2 Macro on it. It has an effective angle of view roughly comparable to a 600mm lens on a 35mm still camera. If I really wanted to get trippy I'd put my 180mm f2.8 on it for an angle of view around double that. I had a 300mm f2.8, but by then it was pretty much impossible to use. Even the 180mm was really hard to keep stable. The slightest vibration made the shot unusable. With the 300mm I was never able to keep it steady enough to use on a normal tripod. Maybe with sand bags and a remote shutter release.

[Tom Lowe]

It's becoming obvious that 4K overcranking needs to be addressed.

[Alexander Nikishin]

It's becoming obvious that 4K overcranking needs to be addressed.

Yea, I'm a bit saddened myself that I'll be stuck with 24fps or 2k windowed S16 for 60fps. :help:

Slow-mo, in my opinion, is an essential part of film making.

[Rob Lohman]

4K overcrank is addressed, it's just not "onboard". Keep in mind that last year during NAB there was no 4K onboard at all.

We know everyone wants this, no need to repeat :)

[Thom Steinhoff]

We know everyone wants this, no need to repeat :)

Agreed! One remaining question, though, is if we shoot Raw through the Raw port, to an outboard raid (through a rental, hopefully) then can we use RedCine to compress that raw footage back to Redcode Raw to put back into our workflow?

[Alexander Nikishin]

4K overcrank is addressed, it's just not "onboard". Keep in mind that last year during NAB there was no 4K onboard at all.

We know everyone wants this, no need to repeat :)

I think we're all a bit spoiled now that we've been through the Red motto of ask and you shall receive. It's as if all of our wishes have come true, and now that there's a little bump in the road, we're complaining. :clown2:

[Robert Jackson]

Yea, I'm a bit saddened myself that I'll be stuck with 24fps or 2k windowed S16 for 60fps. :help:

Slow-mo, in my opinion, is an essential part of film making.

It's one of the essential tools, really. But you aren't stuck at 24 fps. You can shoot at up to 30 fps, which is a nice look, IMO. I overcrank film at 32 fps a lot for establishing shots. You don't really notice it much, but it lends kind of a dreamy quality to a setup. And of course you can shoot at slow frame rates. Nothing like clouds moving fast or the sun dropping in the sky quickly to get your attention.

As far as slow motion goes, I remember when I was first starting to shoot little short films on 16mm. I didn't have a 16mm camera that would shoot at high frame rates, but I had a Super-8 camera that would shoot at up to 80 fps and had a variable shutter angle. I grudgingly went ahead and shot my slow-motion stuff at 80 fps with the Beaulieu. It turned out that the gritty look of the Super-8 slow-motion stuff lent an air of unreality to those shots where time was supposed to be slowing down that worked really well. You never know. Maybe shooting slow-motion at 2K and using some Nattress Film Effects might be just what the doctor ordered.

Or rent an SR3 High Speed for the day and grab slow-motion in Super-16 at up to 150 fps. Or shoot 35mm slow-motion. There are bargains to be had even if you want to own one. Grab a Mitchell Fries or or an Arriflex III high speed or something and use it for extreme slow-motion work when a special pops up on your sheet.

[Thom Steinhoff]

...Or rent an SR3 High Speed for the day and grab slow-motion in Super-16 at up to 150 fps. Or shoot 35mm slow-motion. There are bargains to be had even if you want to own one. Grab a Mitchell Fries or or an Arriflex III high speed or something and use it for extreme slow-motion work when a special pops up on your sheet.

...Or Rent a Red with a Raw Port and a Red Raid (or other Raid solution) for the day to get your shot and avoid the telecine costs! It doesn't have to be your Red to get the quality shot it just has to be A Red.

[Robert Jackson]

...Or Rent a Red with a Raw Port and a Red Raid (or other Raid solution) for the day to get your shot and avoid the telecine costs! It doesn't have to be your Red it just has to be A Red.

Exactly! Ya gotta figure out how you *can* get stuff done when you work in this business. I can't throw a rock without hitting someone who can tell me why it *can't* be done. ;-)

-Rob

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't have reserved two REDs. Then I could equip one with the RAW port, build a nice workstation with competent RAID and other tools/software and rent it out to all of you. :greedy: :greedy: :greedy:

[Robert Jackson]

I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't have reserved two REDs. Then I could equip one with the RAW port, build a nice workstation with competent RAID and other tools/software and rent it out to all of you. :greedy: :greedy: :greedy:

HA!

And the rest of the time use it in-house for motion control work. Can you imagine how nice a RED is going to be for that stuff when you shoot uncompressed and tethered?

[Alexander Nikishin]

I know what my second camera will be for now.

[Thom Steinhoff]

I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't have reserved two REDs. Then I could equip one with the RAW port, build a nice workstation with competent RAID and other tools/software and rent it out to all of you. :greedy: :greedy: :greedy:

Now you're talking--you spend the big $$$ to pimp it all out and figure it all out and you just charge us little $ to visit with it now and then!

Actually, do that over and over and... before you know it... you're a rental company!

[Robert Jackson]

Actually, do that over and over and... before you know it... you're a rental company!

No need to threaten him. ;-)

[Brian Broz]

Not to get off topic, but how many people really need 60FPS at 4K onboard? Obviously the more FPS the better, but let's be realistic. Can the Arri D20 (which has been out for a year+?) actually do 60P at 2K (with costly offboard recorders)? Amazing camera from what I have seen thus far. From what I have heard, you are looking at over $3000/day rental for that setup...with a great insurance policy:-)

In the last few months I have worked as a 2nd/P2 Loader on a couple higher end national/international commercials shot 60FPS with the HVX200 (and Mini-35). Looked great and 720P was not an issue:-)

I could be wrong but I think delivering in 4K won't be required for most folks.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Not to get off topic, but how many people really need 60FPS at 4K onboard?
You'd be surprised...

[Gopher77]

I too am holding out hope for an economical raw storage solution. What the red team has done is absolutly mind boggling, which will take independant film makers to a level we could only dream about a little over a year ago. However I think the future is in raw. Almost all of the still photographers I know shoot raw and take thier image to photoshoop to finish. Soooo I think when editors see raw, thier going to want it bad. So my plan is to get my camera equipped with all I can afford, which I hope will include the raw port and wait for some affordable means to capture. In the mean time shoot RGB to make the $ to afford the raw storage solution. Plus there is nothing cooler then the super slow mo of 120fps. In know you guys at red are hard at work but please keep the raw solution on the radar. I appreciate all you are doing to bring such a great tool in our reach, THANKS!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

before you know it... you're a rental company!

Stop! You're scaring me!!!

[Robert Jackson]

Plus there is nothing cooler then the super slow mo of 120fps. In know you guys at red are hard at work but please keep the raw solution on the radar. I appreciate all you are doing to bring such a great tool in our reach, THANKS!

Keep in mind what they've accomplished in the last year. Who knows where this system will be three years from now?

[Curran Giddens]

That way, all of my footage is the same, I don't need a monster infrastructure that just sits there most of the time, but I still get the highest quality slow motion known to man!

Balancing how much slow motion footage I want with $$ per Rental day against $6K+$100K--in my mind the math is easy.

What if you could also use the RED-RAID for a high-performance storage solution so the "monster infrastructure" doesn't just sit there most of the time.

Here is what I proposed a while ago on dvxuser:

Make the RED-RAID dual-use with user-replaceable 3.5" SATA drives. If you could use the RED-RAID as a desktop online storage system and for recording from the RAW port, more people will be interested.

For those who rarely need overcranked 4k, you can use the RED-RAID as an online storage system. When you need overcranked 4k, you take out the drives and put in a new set. Record overcranked 4k, and copy data over to separate drive when done. Now you can put back the drives you took out (probably need to be in same slots as before), and you have your online storage system back.

If RED sold the RED-RAID bare (with no drives included), they would not be responsible for hard disk related problems. If there was a secure way to manually switch between having the hardware RAID controller on/off, you could even use RAID software to configure the RED-RAID how you like. Seems like a pretty versatile solution to me. I don't know very much about these things, like if it is even possible to have a hardware RAID controller for recording without a computer, and still be able to have user-replaceable drives (not hot-swappable--that would be expecting way too much). Is it even possible to have a manual switch (very secure so you don't switch it by accident) that could turn the hardware RAID controller on/off.


HA!
And the rest of the time use it in-house for motion control work. Can you imagine how nice a RED is going to be for that stuff when you shoot uncompressed and tethered?

This is what I want to do all day every day in my green screen studio. I'm hoping Curt of viewfactor comes up with a MoCo dolly to go with his Moco head and remote follow focus. I'm hoping RED is still going to make the RED-RAID for between $10k (bare) and $25k, within the next year or two, otherwise my plans will have to change. Renting doesn't make sense for what I want to do.

[Thom Steinhoff]

Curran,

I think what you propose makes a lot of sense for a studio situation. In fact, can the Red just be another client on a 10 gig san?

http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=91206

Just did a query on 10 gig san and that's what I came up with. Didn't read it closely--just an example. If something like this would work, for you it would be ideal as you have a monster san to support your business where all client files go, and when you are shooting greenscreen in the studio, you just connect the RED to the same san. All workstations connect to it--as does your cameras. The best of all worlds.

Again, I have no idea if this stuff connects, what the requirments are, etc. It just struck me that they are using some standard 10 gigabit solution, and I remembered SANs are now starting to use 10 gig connections--so what if?

[Thom Steinhoff]

One last thought. As a greenscreen studio, you really should test the hell out of Redcode compressed footage on a greenscreen before abandoning it for true raw and massive raids.

Had a back and forth a few weeks ago with Graeme a few weeks ago about pulling your key half way from RAW to RGB and you may be surprised on just how good it can be. True RAW may just end up being indistinguishable in the end and may not be worth the constant heavy lifting and heavy investment.

The last thing in the world I like to invest in is hard drives. I think of it this way. I've been involved in technology for over 25 years. If I add up the total Megabytes of drive storage I've purchased over the years it ends up being a few terabytes total (with 80% of it in the last two) but the total cost I've put in to drives is certainly approaching $50-100K?!! I remember building out one edit box about 6 years ago with only 80 gig--to the tune of about $10K in drives alone--about the same storage as an iPod. 6 years from now the price we pay per terabyte will seem just as rediculous.

Now you can get a few terabytes for what--a thousand dollars? Drives are my least favorite investment.

Don't give up on Graeme too fast--he is definately the man!

[david farland]

Nice post Thom,

Uncompressed 2K raw for under $20K & dropping.
Looks good

Dave,

[Curran Giddens]

Don't give up on Graeme too fast--he is definately the man!

I know Graeme is the man! When I found out he was on the RED team I was sold! Also, when RED gave Mike Curtis of hdforindies a sneak peek.

I only want to use the RED-RAID for overcranking! Some 4k @ 60fps and lots of 2k @ 120 fps uprezzed to 4k @ 120 fps in software. For my own projects everything will be done in-studio (think Robert Rodriguez's studio, Sin City, etc.). How much of "300" was overcranked? That is what I'm looking for. Becides, after spending all my money on gear, I won't have money for location shoots anyway. :sad:

[Thom Steinhoff]

Curran,

I had another thought for your Crankin' studio. I read somewhere that Red has square pixels. Since you are compositing people, you could shoot 1080p with the Red on it's side when you are shooting vertical foregrounds (people) and rotate them in your compositing application.

That way you get 60FPS full frame and since you will have 1920 Vertical, it may composite great into 4K.

Sure, you don't get raw, but just a thought...

[Robert Jackson]

Curran,

I had another thought for your Crankin' studio. I read somewhere that Red has square pixels. Since you are compositing people, you could shoot 1080p with the Red on it's side when you are shooting vertical foregrounds (people) and rotate them in your compositing application.

That way you get 60FPS full frame and since you will have 1920 Vertical, it may composite great into 4K.

Sure, you don't get raw, but just a thought...

Damn, that's clever. And really practical.

[Curran Giddens]

Sounds like an nice solution. I'm relying on the RAW format to help achieve the "look" I want for each scene. I don't want to have to create the "look" in-camera that goes with using 1080p RGB. I'm also thinking of using openEXR to help match the lighting between the foregrounds and the cgi backgrounds.