Looking for the workflow

[Olivier Madar]

Hi,

I wait for my Red number #2000 since 8 monthes and I spent a lot of time reading the forum, but I still don't know what I will do when my Red will be here... I am french and to read and write in Shakespare language is very hard for me, so maybe all the answer I need are written somewhere in this forum, but I missed them.

Long time ago, I was an "Apple maniac", and I used wonderful product like Digital Film and Radius Videovision (snif, good time). Then came the horrible G4, and I went to PC videoworkflow with Canopus and Vegas. But today, I wonder a lot. I am sure I don't want to be in the "Vista debugging team", and the Mac are both PC and Mac, so I would like to go with Apple again. But with Apple you get Quicktime's bugs too, and it's quiet incredible to see that if you have make the latest upgrade you have loose your workflow...

Cineform seems great (Mac-PC compatibility, fast and quality) and I should use Vegas under XP too, but I still don't understand what Cineform product I should buy. Why should I choose between Premiere in realtime AND Vegas AND AE ? What Cineform should I buy to be able to do all of that ? The matrix of choices with Cineform are incredible for something as simple as a codec... Bruce tried to ask David to make a simple and clear products line, and I agree a lot !! Please, think also to all the poor men that doesn't speak english very well but will use the Red and like video.

I think 2K or full HD will be 90% of my future production with the Red (but I know why I want a Red), and I don't want to spend 4 or 5x the time of my rushes before being able to start working. So advantage to Apple. But I like Linux and command line too, and the webfarms of PC's should be an interesting possibility in the future.

So, the more I read, the more I have questions, but now, I have to make choices and to spend some money and time.

Bruce, David, could you help me ?



Olivier Madar

[David Newman]

Why should I choose between Premiere in realtime AND Vegas AND AE ?

Fortunately you don't.

We have two products that are most suitable for Red users: NEO 4K and Prospect 4K.

NEO 4K, is the codec supporting Quicktime (Mac & PC), Video For Windows, DirectShow, and a range of capture and conversion utilies to make the workflow and archive simpler.

Prospect 4K, is everything NEO 4K is but adds Premiere Pro integration, acceleration with a range or real-time filters and transitions.

If you ever use Premiere Pro, Propsect is the way to go, otherwise NEO 4K is all you need.

Restating visually:
http://www.cineform.com/Images/P4KvsN4K.gif

[Olivier Madar]

Thank you David,

I appreciate very much your quick answer. The graphic is quiet clear. If I buy today Neo 4K, should I be able to upgrade later to prospect 4K ?

[David Newman]

Yes you can upgrade from NEO to Prospect, although that is not common as users normally know whether they are using Premiere before they purchase. NEO and Prospect have 15-day fully featured trail versions, that is the best away to determine what you need. If you looking to save some money and still use Premiere, you should consider Prospect 2K, after all you said "2K or full HD will be 90% of my future production". Prospect 2K has the same feature as 4K, you just limited to a maximum of 2048x2048 timelines and encodes.

[Joel Kaye]

Prospect 2K has the same feature as 4K, you just limited to a maximum of 2048x2048 timelines and encodes.


In Prospect 2k are you going to be pulling from the R3D 2k stream or the 4k stream (then downrezzed to 2K or 1080) on import to your codec?

Have you been able to test the differences in quality between the 2K and 4K streams RED records?

[David Newman]

You will still be using either 2K or 4K source data. Using the RedCine model you would simply require your output size you export to 2048 or lower, it is still fine the R3D sources be 4K. With our own soon to be available tools, R3D conversion would be scaled to our target editing and mastering size. We believe the majority of projects should be done this way. Even if you are using uncompressed DPX files, exporting to 2048x1152 for partical considerations for maintaining high quality at a reduced data rate.

[Mike Zinner]

With our own soon to be available tools, R3D conversion would be scaled to our target editing and mastering size.

The main advantage of 4K for me is to be able to frame each shot differently on a 2K/HD time-line, e.g. pick a 3K area to the left of the clip and have that scaled to the 2K project time-line or use AE tracking to stabilize a shot that way.

* If I read your statement above correctly, the new "official" tools bundled with Prospect 2K will not allow me to convert the standard 4K .R3D files to Cineform RAW 4K files without scaling applied, correct?

This would definitely be a selling point for Prospect 4K for me even though that means 500 bugs extra and I will work on 1080p projects 98% of the time.


* Another question would be how much impact such a random pan/scale operation will have on the real-time playback capabilities when cutting in Premiere. Also, if there is a big difference when doing such an operation on Cineform RAW vs. Cineform Intermediate.


* Last question for today: Does the Cineform team consider/or has planned to improve the RAW color metadata Dialogs from numeric edit controls to more user friendly controls like found in RedCine? Most I'm missing the curves, to be able to apply a simple S-curve. But sliders for other controls like in RedCine would be nice as well. And, we are missing some level control (Cmd+L in Photoshop) in the standard Cineform realtime effects :)

[David Newman]

* If I read your statement above correctly, the new "official" tools bundled with Prospect 2K will not allow me to convert the standard 4K .R3D files to Cineform RAW 4K files without scaling applied, correct?

Yes. Prospect 2K, will only be able to encode 4K sources if they are resized to 2048 or lower. Whereas Prospect 4K is unrestricted and can even encode larger than 4096.


* Another question would be how much impact such a random pan/scale operation will have on the real-time playback capabilities when cutting in Premiere. Also, if there is a big difference when doing such an operation on Cineform RAW vs. Cineform Intermediate.

Not much of an issue with real-time playback using the motion controls with Premiere Pro. RAW and Intermediate should be about the same performance.


* Last question for today: Does the Cineform team consider/or has planned to improve the RAW color metadata Dialogs from numeric edit controls to more user friendly controls like found in RedCine? Most I'm missing the curves, to be able to apply a simple S-curve. But sliders for other controls like in RedCine would be nice as well. And, we are missing some level control (Cmd+L in Photoshop) in the standard Cineform realtime effects :)

YES! That GUI is a bit of an 80s throw back, we have same very cool plans, the tip of the iceberg of where we are going with be shown at NAB.

[Sean]

The Cineform product I purchased (Neo HDV) was also able to export QuickTime files. If this is also the case for Neo 4K, would it also be a potentially advantageous workflow for getting 1080p files into Avid? Or would Avid's transcoding defeat the quality gains you'd be getting via Cineform?

[David Newman]

All our products support Quicktime MOV outputs. These can be placed into Avid systems, yet Avid's don't yet support third party codecs without transcoding to DNxHD. So it works, just a little slower than it could be.