Witness Marks On RED, but Not for me

[Jay A. Kelley]

Kind of sad this has to be my 1000th post...

A lot of us that have been using the camera have pointed out that there are no witness marks on it. (Sensor plane, etc.).

Well, from this point forward, RED is including this.

So in other words, a feature we've said is needed on the camera has been heard by RED, and they did something about it... Just not for the people that asked for it.

Did I miss something?

I've had my camera for a hair over 30 days (33 to be exact), and I've already missed an upgrade to the body?

For the record I voiced my concerns to RED privately before posting this. I contacted them and offered to send the camera back as my cost to get something done. I pitched my reasoning that I felt my camera was a little too new to be missing out on any upgrades and felt my camera should be taken care of.

I was kindly and politely told "no".

You know I always thought the "constantly changing" line for RED cameras was cute and all, but if it means constantly changing, but not for the saps that jumped in early, then I am not so sure how I feel about it now.

True, a witness mark will not kill me. But could it be this is just the beginning of more "Little things". RED did this change, not for those of us who requested it, but to improve FUTURE sales of the camera.

As an early adoptor.. I'm not feeling the love here. And for the record, there are those who reserved before me, and those who reserved after me, it's not about how fast you got it, but how you're taken care of once you get your camera.

I am sharing this on here to see if I am off base in my feelings on this matter, or to see if others agree. I am fine if I'm wrong on this, but I don't FEEL fine right now. I feel like perhaps I should have waited.

I know I am going to hear a lot of "Stop whining and do it yourself" but I am the kind of person who feels any un-reversable changes to the camera should be done by the company that made it.. But that's just me.

Jay

[Stephen Webb]

Jay, present for you:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/98_1204652248.jpeg

Be interesting to see if my camera has one. #692 pre-dates the announcement of witness marks being added to new cameras, but as it hasn't shipped yet I wonder...?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Stephen..
I will certainly find a way to deal with this, but here's an interesting question for you. Since your camera has NOT shipped yet, can you not say: "Hey don't send my camera without witness marks". I mean, you have not even taken possesion yet.

If you have not gotten your camera, I would check this before they send it.

Or you will be in my position and stuck with white paper..

Jay

[Tim Fassnacht]

jay,

This handle system has one build into it!

http://store.simvideo.com/

maybe that will help

[Charles Perkins]

I've had my camera for a hair over 30 days (33 to be exact), and I've already missed an upgrade to the body?

Jay

changes are going to happen, they are not going to be worked around a persons schedule. you got your camera, I assume you got the focus hook, so just be happy.

its like the people who buy an apple product a few days before a new one is released and then moan that they should get a free upgrade.
I assume it was good enough for you then and I'm sure it will be good enough for you now.

if its that much of a pain send it in.

[Rudi Herbert]

Jay,

I feel you, I really do, but I understand RED's position as well. I posted long ago something saying that, at some point, Jim & co. would have to take a deep breath and decide when would they start not retroffiting existing cameras for every little detail they came up with or forgot/were unable to include in the original. Our economy is weak, and though I would hate to be one of those who constantly elaborate on Jim's marketing strategy (None of us knows and its none of our business, except for wishing they do turn a profit from day one) but with the constant send-old-cameras-in-fix-them-send-them-out-again (whether shipping is at your discretion or not) the team never really has a chance to concentrate on moving forward and they remain in a somewhat stationary position and those $17.5K become less and less and less. It appears they have reached that point already, and you are the unwilling and underserving "beneficiary" of that tough, but neccessary stance.

For whatever is worth, shipping a digital cinema camera without a focus plane mark, however easy it is to do on your own, which is something absolutely fundamental to proper functioning, and something VERY easy to do at any point during production is a bit baffling, but that's the way it happened. Why don't you try buying one of them focus hooks that seem to be available at the RED store and be done with it? Try and eliminate as much pain and frustration as possible and just keep marching on....it's what I would do...

[Stephen Webb]

Since your camera has NOT shipped yet, can you not say: "Hey don't send my camera without witness marks".

I'm sure I could, but I've been waiting that long to get it sorted, paid and shipped that I don't really want to delay it just for a witness mark. I've got the focus hook ordered so that will have to do if the witness mark is not there.

However if it is there I'll let you know.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks for the helpful comments guys (Except for you Chas, you were not helpful at all).

It sounds like this is one of those things I will have to live with.

It kind of sucks, but there were many who said "You know I think I'll just wait until they shake all the flaws out of this thing". Turns out there was a lot of wisdom in their words, and I am now learning exactly what they were thinking when they said it.

I'll suck it up, and move forward.

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

I also have to point out that RED has not let this complaint go.. They also "feel my pain" and are trying their best to make me a happy puppy.

No, they are not upgrading the camera, they said they can't, but they are doing everything else they can to help.

It sure makes "sucking it up" easier when you know the company would prefer to give you what you ask for, but they just can't.

Jay

[Dominic Cochran]

I've got the focus hook ordered so that will have to do if the witness mark is not there.


If you could only have one, Wouldn't you choose the focus hook anyway?

[fightordie]

Jay you are right on with this. If this is just the beginning then expect other things to be added and Red knew this and Red should have been prepared for it.
Being an early adopter should be supported. All the work done with the cam benefits Red acceptance so quid pro quo.

[Eryc Tramonn]

Thanks for the helpful comments guys (Except for you Chas, you were not helpful at all).

It sounds like this is one of those things I will have to live with.

It kind of sucks, but there were many who said "You know I think I'll just wait until they shake all the flaws out of this thing". Turns out there was a lot of wisdom in their words, and I am now learning exactly what they were thinking when they said it.

I'll suck it up, and move forward.

Jay

Hmmm, funny how tunes change.

Sorry it had to go down that way Jay, but I agree with everyone else here too. At a certain point, the RED team has to draw a line in the sand; that's one of the primary reasons I have been willing to wait and see just how things progress. Listening to other early adopter's critiques isn't the fearless stance that Jim and the rest of the team needed to move forward, but it's the position I was, and AM comfortable with. I would imagine, soon there won't be much of a queue, and most of the bugs will have been squashed.

So far, it seems Jim and company have generally exceeded expectations, so I guess you'll have to suffer the few shortcomings. Unfortunately. Overall though, you've made history with your intrepid leap into a new technology. And not having something so minor will not affect the quality of your productions...well maybe your focus will be consistently soft, but you could start a new style that way. Kidding.

E

[Steve Sanacore]

The alternative for RED would be to hold up any improvements until they release a new version, every year or so, like Apple does. Then early users couldn't complain as much. I would rather have it this way, where upgrades are consistently added. I would think any major improvements will be offered for a retrofit. RED seems to want us to have the best of what they can offer although at times I would think it's prohibitive for them to offer free upgrades for every little item.

IMO

[jbeale]

On the one hand, I can sympathize with disappointment at not receiving what "obviously should have been included". On the other hand, in this specific instance, are we talking about something that takes more than a few minutes to fix?

Assuming your PL mount is set correctly, you measure 52 mm back from the flange, and there is your focal plane. Mark it, and you're done. Yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_PL

[Brook Willard]

All we need is one of these (http://www.DigiPrimes.com/2005/primes/precision.shtml). If RED made a tall, skinny sticker [with a cutout for the focus hook] that was tough as hell [sort of a rigid plastic with a heavy adhesive on the back] that lined up with the front of the RED body and put a fixed line at the proper depth... we'd be in business. They could make 1,000 of those for pennies and ship them out to all of the customers... or they could make them available on their website for a few bucks.

The solution doesn't need to be a dremel... but it needs to be more permanent and exact than a piece of paper tape, strip of velcro or a grease pencil line.

[Stephen Webb]

If you could only have one, Wouldn't you choose the focus hook anyway?

Yup.

If the witness mark is there, it's a bonus.

[planet e]

I have to agree with Jay that this feedback was everywhere, lots of calls for witness marks...and the minute that RED made an interchangeable mount that could accept all of these different lenses, it should have been a gimme... it's odd that RED didn't listen--they have listened to so much else...

On the other hand, i would have paid $45 for a focus hook and been happy to have my camera 30 days earlier...seems a small price to pay to be up and shooting and RED-ready. And marking up your own camera, as suggested, is free.

Witness marks and audio pots...two major oversights on two features which should have just happened, but didn't. still and all, considering what they are trying to do and the remarkable time frame in which they have done it, not a terrible track record.

[Ben Goldenberg]

changes are going to happen, they are not going to be worked around a persons schedule. you got your camera, I assume you got the focus hook, so just be happy.

its like the people who buy an apple product a few days before a new one is released and then moan that they should get a free upgrade.
I assume it was good enough for you then and I'm sure it will be good enough for you now.

if its that much of a pain send it in.

This is a bad analogy as apple ripps off their own customers. They don't have any true competition as if you want final cut you go with them. I spent 6 grand on the g4 17 inch powerbook when it first came out. As soon as I opened the box there was an announcement for the g5 desktop. I tried to return the powerbook and they refused. You argue that it was good enough for me when I paid, but what you are not condidering is that the laptop at the time was almost the same power as their best desktop meanwhile the G5 was more powerful and cheaper. I chose portability and paid more, then some jerk spent 3 grand less and got the desktop, then they dropped 3 grand off of the price of the powerbook. If RED drops the price of the RED one by 3 grand I will be very ticked off!

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hmmm, funny how tunes change.

Sorry it had to go down that way Jay, but I agree with everyone else here too. At a certain point, the RED team has to draw a line in the sand; that's one of the primary reasons I have been willing to wait and see just how things progress. Listening to other early adopter's critiques isn't the fearless stance that Jim and the rest of the team needed to move forward, but it's the position I was, and AM comfortable with. I would imagine, soon there won't be much of a queue, and most of the bugs will have been squashed.

So far, it seems Jim and company have generally exceeded expectations, so I guess you'll have to suffer the few shortcomings. Unfortunately. Overall though, you've made history with your intrepid leap into a new technology. And not having something so minor will not affect the quality of your productions...well maybe your focus will be consistently soft, but you could start a new style that way. Kidding.

E

Soft focus, a new style........ Yeah... I can do that....

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Just so you all know...

I do not come on here with my opinions and think I am right all the time. I happen to be one of those rare individuals who comes on here to share my thoughts in the hopes of getting enlightening feedback in order to help me with a final decision.

In this case, while I was not happy with the situation regarding my camera and RED, two things have changed my mind:

1: RED went out of their way to help in any way they could (Thanks Brent)
2: Something none of you said directly, but your comments made me think nonetheless: To be fair to people like me, they could retro the cameras and update them, OR if they were a smart business they would simply HOLD the improvements until enough of them existed to warrent a RED 1.5 or RED 2. This would result in a lot of cool things being denied users who are able to benefit from the improvments now. I like stuff, but I'm not so selfish that I would deny users 600+ (Or whatever the number is) something neat for their RED just because it was not available when I got mine.

So... I'm wrong.. My camera is what it is, and I will make it wonderful..

It's mine.. my own.... MY PRECIOUS...

:)

Jay

[M.Halsell]

Kinda glad, I came in later.

[Jason Wingrove]

we mean focal plane mark right?
the witness marks are on the lens no?

[Dominic Cochran]

Well yes, we ARE talking about the focal plane in this instance. But from everything I've heard, no there are NOT witness marks on the Red Lenses. At least the 18-50.

[donatello b]

i have the Red focus hook around here somewhere - it was on the camera back in Jan but took it off in Feb ..
i can see where the focus hook has the plane but i just use the front of the body ...
does 1/4" really make a difference when you tape measure ?

[Clint Johnson]

Even if Red offered to pay the shipping and retrofit #351... I'd rather put the marks on myself (2.8mm back from the front plate) and not loose my camera for a week or more.

Being a sixteenth or two out with my tape isn't really a factor when the Red 18-50mm doesn't have any witness marks to move to. Now when I mount a different lens that might change... but I still can't see it needing millimeter accuracy. What lens is marked to the millimeters or the 1/16ths anyway?

Now a calibrated digital readout on the side of the lens showing down to the millimeter or 1/16th... that would be cool... does anyone have that? Do the Canon still lenses have the internal ability to read the focus to that kind of accuracy? It would be an interesting thing if the Birger mount could let us focus a Canon lens to 3.839 meters.

Now try telling the actor to hit that mark!

And you can tell I'm Canadian because I can't make up my mind about which measuring system to use.

[Prem Edpuganti]

Just so you all know...

So... I'm wrong.. My camera is what it is, and I will make it wonderful..

It's mine.. my own.... MY PRECIOUS...

Jay


Red adopted a business model unlike any in any industry. When Sonys and Panys release a product they test it internally before they start selling to public. Usually, they have full blown specs too so you can decide for yourself whether you want to buy at that point in time.

Unlike that Red has adopted a strategy of recruiting a willing, paying customers to test a product that is perhaps 75% ready. No full blown specs here either. Probably to limit liability. All of us willingly, perhaps unknowingly, bought into this strategy. And many of us are happy too because we got a great product at a great price. Jannard stated everything in life changes. Being a shrewed businessman, he didn't say how often. That is where you got caught, unfortunately.

I enjoy your posts immensely since they are no holds barred. As such, would you be happy if I buy you the Focus Hook, seriously.

Any way, whatever happened to your "great workflow discovered". I am still waiting.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I enjoy your posts immensely since they are no holds barred. As such, would you be happy if I buy you the Focus Hook, seriously.



HAHAHAHA!! Are you serious?!
:)

If you are then you have my most heart-felt thanks. But no, it's been all taken care of.

Thanks!

Jay

I am looking to buy a Cantor-X2 if you wanna help out with that!

:)

[Joel Kaye]

If RED fixes the issues in the production pack and changes the orientation of the LEMO connectors on the camera so they work with right angle connectors and doesn't upgrade existing users then I think you'd see a riot. Witness marks... eh, buy the hook, paint one on, whatever. Not going to impact your resale value.

Early adopters and purchasers should always get preferred treatment. They are "the base". They are marketing tools. Unless you turn them into "tools".

[Jay A. Kelley]

If RED fixes the issues in the production pack and changes the orientation of the LEMO connectors on the camera so they work with right angle connectors and doesn't upgrade existing users then I think you'd see a riot. Witness marks... eh, buy the hook, paint one on, whatever. Not going to impact your resale value.

Early adopters and purchasers should always get preferred treatment. They are "the base". They are marketing tools. Unless you turn them into "tools".

These are good points. Upgrades are one thing, fixing existing problems are another. However I have gotten the impression that RED does intend to fix these errors. At least I hope so! You are right, if they don't... There will be blood...

I need to see that movie.

Jay

[Adrian T.]

For all those early adopters without a focus hook, here's a picture I took for the "Focal Plane" thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/673_1204375734.jpg

[Tony Lorentzen]

I totally understand where you're coming from Jay - I do. But - why shouldn't RED add the witness mark and all the other stuff they might add to make the camera even better? You might consider the lack of a witness mark an error - I say it's an improvement to add it. See the difference?

There's ALWAYS a cost of being one of the first. With that said - I'm sure I'll be jealous of the ones who get their camera six months after me for all the added features they get.

But - the fact that I'll be six months ahead of them in terms of experience makes it up for it. And then some.

[Jon Sagud]

I gotta tell you guys... whether you're coming in early or late in the game, being a member of the RED family is something you will never regret. We sit here day in and day out watching and listening and we will never stop bending over backwards to make things right. You'll hear "yes" far more often than you'll hear "no" and at this stage in the game, it is not enough to offer you the best image quality and the lowest price. We want you to have the best customer service in the industry. Period.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Jay, I hear you.

But if I can offer this piece of advice to help you out:

*From a guy who can't even afford having a red reserver and who has been drooling over this since the white website with the stock car photos*

You have a Red camera NOW. That gives you leverage. What might look like a bummer (lack of a witness mark) also is your most precious asset.

This is the window of time when everybody wants to shoot with a red and there are only a few in the market. Play this year straight, you'll hav plenty of money to spend on Red ones or twos next year, all with included witness marks, lol.

I guess its just a matter of point of view. I consider yourself and your witness-mark-free camera a lucky bastard. Just go with it!

Cheers and good luck!

[Nathan Buxton]

Jay, man, you need to pick your battles.

A lot of the complaints I see you make are kind of pointless as even if the situation was "remedied" to how you want, the practical differences are negligible.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay, man, you need to pick your battles.

A lot of the complaints I see you make are kind of pointless as even if the situation was "remedied" to how you want, the practical differences are negligible.

The difference between you and I Nathan, is that I did not view this as a fight. In my world it is possible to have a disagreement with someone while respecting and liking them at the same time.

I had an issue, I brought it before RED, and then our community, in both places things became better because of it.
I have no regrets.

As for a lot of my complaints being pointless, you're welcome to your opinion, but I hope you won't be shocked if I ignore it since it's so tackless it borders on an attack. And THIS is a battle that's not worth my time.

:)

Jay

[Nathan Buxton]

Ok I apologize. I didnt really mean to attack you, and it's good that you are involved with red and are supporting them. I think sometimes you cry wolf on things that are not that big a deal.

although it sucks your cam doesnt have a witness mark for the focal plane... thats not really the only solution to the problem of "locating the focus plane"

I just mean that the red team kinda have bigger fish to fry, you know?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok I apologize. I didnt really mean to attack you, and it's good that you are involved with red and are supporting them. I think sometimes you cry wolf on things that are not that big a deal.

although it sucks your cam doesnt have a witness mark for the focal plane... thats not really the only solution to the problem of "locating the focus plane"

I just mean that the red team kinda have bigger fish to fry, you know?

It's all good my friend... Are you coming to NAB? We can break bread and speak as men do.
Jay

[Nathan Buxton]

I don't really have a need to go to NAB. It sure would be nice to meet you all and look at some stuff...

[Andreas Fernbrant]

What happend to Brooks idea?
Was it just me that thought it was a really good idea. You choose to put it on if you need it. A sticker is cheap and a good retro solution!

[Harry Clark]

Hey Jay and Nathan, get a room already... ;) (kidding of course)
I tried to use some linotape. Wouldn't stick. Camera tape sticks, but it's kinda ugly and the glue eventually dries out and makes a mess so it's not really a long-term solution.
I'm sure there is a way, carefully and cleanly done, to have a machine shop simply "score" the camera body all the way around and use a model paint brush and some yellow model paint.
At least that's what I'm going to try.
I was thinking Dremel, but I'm not sure I really have the skills...
Cheers,
Harry

[Jay A. Kelley]

The focus hook solution works for me.

Jay

[Bill Anderson]

Jay, there are a few ways to look at this issue for sure; but being one of the first to receive the camera meant being able to employ such a revolutionary piece of equipment instead of being forced to use inferior and much more expensive cameras. In short, 20K more would have got you witness marks and an inferior alternative. I'm sure you know this, and your voice has been one of the more reasonable and honest on this forum. If it had been practical for me to get in early, I would have been all over the opportunity, but I honestly can't see me needing a RED for another year, perhaps two. Pros and cons whichever number you have.

[Brent J. Craig]

... We want you to have the best customer service in the industry. Period.

Somehow the part of your post where you offer a solution got cut off. :-)

[Brent J. Craig]

...does 1/4" really make a difference when you tape measure ?

On a camera system where flange focal depth is a do-it-yourself affair?!? Hell Yes!

[Brent J. Craig]

All we need is one of these (http://www.DigiPrimes.com/2005/primes/precision.shtml). If RED made a tall, skinny sticker [with a cutout for the focus hook] that was tough as hell [sort of a rigid plastic with a heavy adhesive on the back] that lined up with the front of the RED body and put a fixed line at the proper depth...

This IS the solution. Anyone from Red wanna step up, or is this another entrepreneurial opportunity?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Somehow the part of your post where you offer a solution got cut off. :-)

Hey buddy,

For the record, the DID offer a solution, and I accepted, but I tend to keep my communication with them, or at least the details of it, private unless I ask permission to talk about it on here. I am cool with describing general issues, but do not want them second guessing everything RED says to me for fear I will bring it on here.

Jay

[Brent J. Craig]

For the record, the DID offer a solution, and I accepted...

It's just wonderful that you were offered a private solution. Unfortunately YOU started a discussion of the issue and I was responding to the discussion. The response from a company official saying they are providing excellent customer service, without actually offering a solution seemed ironic and incomplete to me, so I commented.

If the solution is top secret I guess the mods should delete the thread and use their mind wiping rays on those known to have seen it. :-)

[Bill Anderson]

It seems, or should be obvious, that J isn't lamenting the Witness Marks and seems quite capable of coming up with his own solution; what he does find worth investigating is where the service begins and ends. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[PaulClements]

It does strike me as something of a slippery slope when any kind of small physical refinements are made to the body... "Making Obsolesence Obsolete"... hmm.

I would like to be notified when upgrades or modifications have been made, especially internal refinements to the camera, and whether Red intends to service older cameras and bring them up to speed so to speak. I don't mind paying for such services if the upgrades are substantial. I just worry that, for example, a board gets altered because of a problem in one or two cameras and Red doesn't bother to notify owners but instead deals with each camera on fault by fault basis as it comes in, whilst all new cameras go out without the inherent problem.

Paul

[Finner]

It does strike me as something of a slippery slope when any kind of small physical refinements are made to the body... "Making Obsolesence Obsolete"... hmm.

I would like to be notified when upgrades or modifications have been made, especially internal refinements to the camera

Like when the major Infra red issue gets fixed so that you can use strong enough ND's so that you don't have to shoot at T-16 to keep from getting a washed out picture. The infra red is a real problem that is a battle worth picking a fight on, not something you can fix by taking 3 minutes and some graphics tape to fix.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Yes.

I don't mind owning a pre-wittnessmark camera. I do mind the ND infra red issue.

Hans

[PaulClements]

Like when the major Infra red issue gets fixed so that you can use strong enough ND's so that you don't have to shoot at T-16 to keep from getting a washed out picture. The infra red is a real problem that is a battle worth picking a fight on, not something you can fix by taking 3 minutes and some graphics tape to fix.
Exactly.

My point was simply to highlight the issue of modifying or refining the body in any way shape or form without looking into offering pre-existing owners the option to upgrade.

If they fix the IR issue I'm sure we'll hear about it and it'll be interesting to see how Red deals with it.

Paul

[Joel Kaye]

If they fix the IR issue I'm sure we'll hear about it and it'll be interesting to see how Red deals with it.


They'll raise the price on the camera and offer to upgrade existing cameras for slightly less than the price increase.

[Max Fischer]

Jay, I see where you're coming from, and obviously this isn't just about the witness mark. It's about the product and service as a whole.

It's funny, it reminds my of the Aaton cameras before the Prod was introduced. I always joked that EVERY Aaton LTR and XTR was a prototype. They really were different. I've seen camera bodies and magazines within a few serial #s of each other that were different in many ways. How French!

But what made things worse was that owner/operators started modifying and upgrading themselves, and aftermarket companies would introduce "solutions" At that point NONE of them were the same!

It was OK, though, because there was very little changed in the way of how the camera was used. An AC could prep the camera, instantly recognize its unique "quirks" and move on. Hopefully the same will be possible with the RED.

[Harry Clark]

Max, I agree. I used to say that those early Aatons were like snowflakes; no two were the same.
I think we'll all muddle through somehow here too...
Cheers,
Harry

[Jay A. Kelley]

I am worried about this IR issue.

RED has taken good care of me on this other issue

jay

[Rick Darge]

Red always plays fair.. Everything will work out

The great news is that the camera produces ONE amazing picture .. Best bang for your buck..ever

I hear you Jay on what you're saying.. but some things you just have to slide.. We are fortunate that we even have cameras at this stage in the game, that's worth more than any minor upgrade..

[darryl phinnessee]

does anyone have a picture of the red with witness marks to post