So Gibby, how do we make money On this Thing?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Feeling special I mentioned you in the title, Gib?

Here's my deal, I do music videos and features 10% of the time (RED will rule) but sadly 90% of the time I am making money shooting talking heads & B-Roll.

The only way this camera will REALLY work for me is to find a way to shoot talking heads without a lot of problems. Gotta pay the bills

Gibby I think you are a kindred spirit here so that's why I mentioned you right up front.. I need your help working this out.

Ok so here are the quick issues.. Correct what I have wrong:

My "broadcast lens": I have the b4 adaptor, there's no noticeable increase in focal lenght (right?) power zoom will still work, don't care about iris, I can do that. The histogram will be a large time saver here.. Good addition for what I do.

Any ND filters built into this camera? They help at times, is a mattebox ALWAYS going to be needed now, or is there a way to control light on RED ONE such as an ND wheel? Outside shooting, the iris can be a pain, I supposed I could use a screw on ND filter, but who wants too?!

I am going to assume that the red one has a standard plate at the bottom so I can attach my tripod plate to it and be off and running, right?

There is audio in (4 channels, that's cool) not sure how you can change the inputs or how fast they work, I do know the controls exists somewhere but not sure where. This will be important for smaller interviews where there is no mixer involved.

What else... Oh yes, recording times.. Forgive me folks but I am still working this out. So the B4 is 2K right? I'm shooting 1080p at best.. So what's my record time per gig? (Per second does not help me) I tend to shoot 1 to 2 hours per day MAX so I need to work this out in order to find out what I am using for recording (Already getting two Red Drives and all this "flash" talk is making me look for women in raincoats.. I don't completely understand it all).

EVF is great. The monitor is great for clients. Stupid question here.. What about playback? Our clients like to see that we actually HIT the record button like we said we did.. In fact I like to check that everyone once in a while myself. Is there a way to do this on RED (I am thinking "no" this could be an issue, workable, but an issue.. Gibby your help here please)

There is more to this than what I am thinking.. My goal for this thread is to work out to the best of our ability any issues or work arounds for those of us that must also use the camera for the less glamorous side of production. After all, RED will want us happy since we make up a much larger market share than the music video / feature crowd and in the end it's all about moving the product.

So PLEASE users and RED team alike, let's discuss this in detail.. For me (and others I believe) NAB is useless. Never the discuss the details of camera operation during the running of the bulls, especially when it's RED.

:)

Jay A. Kelley
www.dreamwelder.com

[Evin Grant]

there's no noticeable increase in focal lenght (right?)
B4 is 1.35x I think.


Any ND filters built into this camera?
No.


So the B4 is 2K right? I'm shooting 1080p at best.. So what's my record time per gig?
1080P Only. 56 sec per Gig in 1080P RGB Redcode (Estimated)


What about playback?

You will have playback options, we just don't know what the UI is like yet.
Although we can guess it will be clip based.

[Jay A. Kelley]

You will have playback options, we just don't know what the UI is like yet.
Although we can guess it will be clip based.

1.32x is not horrible... I think we can live with that.. I hope...

Clip Based playback would be a GREAT thing... You sure about this Evin?

Jay

[Brook Willard]

I'd put money on a clip-based playback system. I imagine that a linear playback system could also be selected... perhaps by way of a preference.

[tj williams]

Jay in my opinion the field of view will not change with the abakus or red adapter. the adapter merely spreads the image across the greater area of the S16 frame, so the loss is 1/3 stop not a changed field of view of the lens.

I use the iris on manual in eng/doc also. I often use the auto momentarily to regain near proper exposure quickly on a change of frame. This won't be available but the vf is supposed to have some killer exposure focus indicators.

I use a smaller (4/5.6) Petroff matte box almost all the time. its got great eyebrow n siders. It's because of my preference for low backlights. So dropping in an ND won't be a big deal.

Plate on the bottom? Look at the rendering on the price sheet on the site. This seems to be the latest configuration. The flat part is forward of the shoulder indent. so some where you will be off center either on tripod or shoulder! I'm not ready to slide the battery back every time I shoulder up! This looks like a design problem for eng/doc users to me. Strange if I should start to miss my Sony quick release plate.

Gawd I hope n pray they didn't put little tiny audio level controls on the dummy side or worse in a menu???? I do a lot of stuff where the client wants audio but won't pay for one of my audio buddys... 4 channels cool onboard 1 and still have 3 for radios. Where to mount the radio receivers? (receiver rail?)

Another related problem for me is monitor cable I hope that it is standard as we also have a camera crane and it is longer than 10ft.

I really liked the simple plate on top with the small handle and lots of holes for the camera light and a shock mounted shotgun. Not to mention it looked like remove the handle and presto Steadi low mode.

I also sometimes work at 720/24P and don't have a data rate yet to know how long the flash/drives? will last on that.

I like your idea for this thread, as so much of the "work flow" is about "esatachannellinkraidopticaldrivel" Ergonomics of working with the camera is the most important thing to me.

[Jannard]

If we don't make a RED RAIL accessory that you really need... we can design it and make it anytime.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

If we don't make a RED RAIL accessory that you really need... we can design it and make it anytime.

Jim

Oh, geez. You [guys] never cease to amaze...

[David Fairbanks]

Ok, what if I did up the CAD drawings, willl you make it then?

[Finner]

Gawd I hope n pray they didn't put little tiny audio level controls on the dummy side or worse in a menu????

This would suck huge

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'm wondering how quickly I can pop off the back battery/magazine cradle and attach it to the top.

For handheld work I will have the two mounted back, for tripod work, on top.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Plate on the bottom? Look at the rendering on the price sheet on the site. This seems to be the latest configuration. The flat part is forward of the shoulder indent. so some where you will be off center either on tripod or shoulder! I'm not ready to slide the battery back every time I shoulder up! This looks like a design problem for eng/doc users to me. Strange if I should start to miss my Sony quick release plate.

I like your idea for this thread, as so much of the "work flow" is about "esatachannellinkraidopticaldrivel" Ergonomics of working with the camera is the most important thing to me.

Hey TJ Thanks for Jumping in here.. Gibby's being coy. Thanks for watching this thread Jim. TJ the plate is a fairly major deal so let's talk about that first.
A quick release plate for the camera is a good idea. I think Jim's offer to design / build something is great but also I think he agrees the doc/eng/talkingheads market is large enought to customize for. That said let's be careful here and make sure any suggestions are useable.

Because we are ruled by speed, our goal would be to set up the camera in the most generic useable configuration possible and then make small, quick mods through-out the day. Red rails would almost always be a constant item on the camera, since most flexability would have to start there (It also contains the shoulder mount.) TJ I see what you do in that there is NOT a lot of rear support for the back of the camera once it's sitting on the tripod with RedRails and we're talking some serious weight here.. Battery, drives, etc. This seems to be a major hurdle to be dealt with.

BUT.. We aren't holding the camera, they are.. I have no doubt someone already put this damn thing on a tripod and dealt with this.

You know in a perfect world, we could get 5-8 of us "shooters" together and go somewhere where there is a "RED" we can get our hands on and then go through the camera point by point, you, gibby, myself, and a couple others.. We could do in one day what would take a little longer otherwise.. Just a thought.

As the camera is designed now, I am guessing there are two screw holes on the bottom in front of the shoulder pad (small and large). The tripod plate attaches to that and then to the tripod head. This plate has the risk of pushing on the shoulder when going handheld (If it's longer than the piece of metal it's attaching too), if this happens, and the plate has to be removed before handheld work can begin, then we are looking at an issue. Of course, a perfect world would have a QUICK RELEASE PLATE designed for RED that supports the camera front AND back and allows the user to pop off a tripod like most of todays pro cameras.

Red could stand out here and design a plate like the arri dovetail that has it's own sliding balance mechinism. But more lightweight please.. Those arri dovetails are HEAVY. This is just throwing something out, may be a bad idea. I know the idea right now is to use Red Rails to balance the camera using battery (Assuming we are not AC powered, which we will be a lot of the time).

Jim, if you are still around, lord knows you have cameras like the one I am speaking of, with quick release plates.. How do you plan to work around this issue when YOU Use your camera, or do you think a quick release plate may be something needed?

I realize we're pushing things in a different direction here, but in the end I think it's worth it. Speed is a factor in every form of production nowadays.

Jay

[Clayton Harper]

Gawd I hope n pray they didn't put little tiny audio level controls on the dummy side or worse in a menu????

Given the obvious image quality of the camera, I would say audio quality and functionality are some of the biggest risk factors right now. Sound recording has historically gotten the shit end of the stick.

I think there is still a better idea out there in the ether for a small size audio pot/slider. It has to be able to be to set it in a precise manner but also not be clunky and easy to bumb.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Given the obvious image quality of the camera, I would say audio quality and functionality are some of the biggest risk factors right now. Sound recording has historically gotten the shit end of the stick.

I think there is still a better idea out there in the ether for a small size audio pot/slider. It has to be able to be to set it in a precise manner but also not be clunky and easy to bumb.

Dear Lord, (haha, wanted to say that)

I agree, just trying to give each point it's due so we don't jump around here. Yes audio is a major deal. My guess would be that audio controls are on the back of the camera. Not a great place by any means. If I am wrong someone correct me.

In the "dramatic narrative / music video" world they will almost ALWAYS have a mixer or sep audio with TimeCode sent in, so quickly adjustable levels is very much our type of thing and NOT theirs.

So it's going to be a challenge. I could be wrong, but it's a good guess at this point. I have heard tell it's possible to control various aspects of the camera using external controls. Did this feature make it through the design process and can we perhaps control audio levels this way? It's not the best solution, but perhaps a workable one. Another feature we are all used to is the ability to see audio levels in out EVF.. I wonder if this ws done.

Jay

[Mike the beginner]

On the question of radio receivers, could red not just make a plate that would hold two receivers and provide a bolt-on position for the plate to attach to. Seems strange that the red drive and bateries are catered for but not wireless receivers? I know the red cage was meant for attaching many things but we are talking about lightweight non studio out on the field set up with a shoulder mount.

I intend to be using two receivers most of the time. Its kinda puting me off getting the red rail if it is incomplete for my purpose.

Mike the beginner

[Jay A. Kelley]

On the question of radio receivers, could red not just make a plate that would hold two receivers and provide a bolt-on position for the plate to attach to. Seems strange that the red drive and bateries are catered for but not wireless receivers? I know the red cage was meant for attaching many things but we are talking about lightweight non studio out on the field set up with a shoulder mount.

I intend to be using two receivers most of the time. Its kinda puting me off getting the red rail if it is incomplete for my purpose.

Mike the beginner

I hear ya Mike, but we're all over the place now. Is there no one that makes this sort of thing? I mean RED is FULL of mounting points. You're talking more of an accessory right? I mean I have Gaff Taped my Recievers to the camera when I needed too.. I know I know.. NOT what you have in mind, but my point is that the location of the audio controls, and the mounting plate CANNOT be done by other means, then need some support from RED in order to work. The recievers can be attached in a number of ways.

If we succeed at making RED "shooter friendly" then I have no doubt your accessory will be a popular item, but only if we get that far.

We've entered a world where electronics that do only "one thing well" are no longer such a good idea.
Jay

[Paul Hazlett]

Along the lines of what TJ was saying, If us ENG one man band guys are
trying to monitor audio, how would that happen?

I certainly dont expect the camera to have every switch for every style of shooting but 4 channels of audio without an operator could get dicey.

[Paul Hazlett]

As for mounting wireless lectro makes buckets that have screw holes that
I think would be easily retrofited, or attached to a plate that has toolless
screws

[Jeremy Torrie]

In reading Jay's posts, one thing came to mind -what if Red designed a small filter system to go in b/t the lens and the camera as I have seen and used with the Panavision cameras? I would assume it could be done, and Jim could take advantage of his Oakley plant by using it to manufacture small filters that go in front on the camera but behind the lens.

[Jay A. Kelley]

In reading Jay's posts, one thing came to mind -what if Red designed a small filter system to go in b/t the lens and the camera as I have seen and used with the Panavision cameras? I would assume it could be done, and Jim could take advantage of his Oakley plant by using it to manufacture small filters that go in front on the camera but behind the lens.

Yikes! Would that not be a MASSIVE thing by changing the distance of the lens to the sensor? I'm not a engineer type, but that seems like a big deal.

Don't get me wrong buddy, I love where you are headed since I really would like to have an ND solution, but I fear we may be stuck with regular filters this time.

Jay

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby's being coy.

LOL...actually Gibby has gotten some much-needed sleep and some editing done on a project! Looks like you've got some real good feedback on your questions already. I do have some thoughts on this, and when I get a break from the editing this afternoon, I'll make some time to give you some input.

I like TJ's suggestion of getting a bunch of shooters together for a hands-on session with a RED One camera. Multiple experienced minds are always better than one. Perhaps we'll have to do something like that with my RED #8.

[chuck colburn]

In reading Jay's posts, one thing came to mind -what if Red designed a small filter system to go in b/t the lens and the camera as I have seen and used with the Panavision cameras? I would assume it could be done, and Jim could take advantage of his Oakley plant by using it to manufacture small filters that go in front on the camera but behind the lens.

Hi Torrie,

Behind the lens filtration has been done for many years.
Generally in the motion picture industry it was accomplished by using Kodak wratten gels either mounted on the rear element of the lens, (mainly zooms) or in holders designed to slide in and out behind the camera turret (think Bolex Rex and H16 series cameras). The problem here is that introducing a plano optical element behind the taking lens is going to optically increase the flange focal depth appx. 1/3 the thickness of the element. Which in the case of the gels is about .0015". This may not seem like much but it would keep a wide angle lens from reaching infinity focus. Thus your lenses would need to be recollimated for use with a filter and would always have to have one in place even if it was only a clear one.

Chuck

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm still hoping those "in the know" can address the quick release plate, and our audio monitoring and control issues..

Jay

[Axel]

for mounting audio receivers haver a look at ugrip.dk. They make nice good looking mounts.

[Jay A. Kelley]

for mounting audio receivers haver a look at ugrip.dk. They make nice good looking mounts.

Boy you're not kidding, those are sweet, and stackable... Got any idea on price for those little beauties?

Jay

[Antoine Baumann]

What else... Oh yes, recording times.. Forgive me folks but I am still working this out. So the B4 is 2K right? I'm shooting 1080p at best.. So what's my record time per gig? (Per second does not help me) I tend to shoot 1 to 2 hours per day MAX so I need to work this out in order to find out what I am using for recording (Already getting two Red Drives and all this "flash" talk is making me look for women in raincoats.. I don't completely understand it all).

I think I like numbers :-)

If you use your B4 lens, you will be as you said recording at most 1080p RGB @ 60 fps (well actually not sure about the RGB as on the red web site it is still state that 1080p will only record to 4:2:2 component, but it is also still state that you can record 1080i, which I know is in fact not possible) .
REDCODE has been said to be around 10:1 compression, so you should be close to:
1920x1080 pixel x 10 bit x 3 RGB x 60 fps / 10 (compression) = around 45MBytes/sec
therefore the compression might be little stronger....

Anyway @ 46MBytes/sec..... 1 gig will hold around 20 seconds, therefore the 320 gig will hold around 1 hour and 46 minutes.

I hope it helps you.

antoine.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think I like numbers :-)

If you use your B4 lens, you will be as you said recording at most 1080p RGB @ 60 fps (well actually not sure about the RGB as on the red web site it is still state that 1080p will only record to 4:2:2 component, but it is also still state that you can record 1080i, which I know is in fact not possible) .
REDCODE has been said to be around 10:1 compression, so you should be close to:
1920x1080 pixel x 10 bit x 3 RGB x 60 fps / 10 (compression) = around 45MBytes/sec
therefore the compression might be little stronger....

Anyway @ 46MBytes/sec..... 1 gig will hold around 20 seconds, therefore the 320 gig will hold around 1 hour and 46 minutes.

I hope it helps you.

antoine.

OUCH! That little.. Oh boy.. 720p here I come.

[Chris Kenny]

If Red can compress bayer pattern data at better than 10:1 with good quality, which seems to be the case, they can probably get away with compressing RGB at a higher ratio. There's much less spacial complexity.

[shaftbond]

I like TJ's suggestion of getting a bunch of shooters together for a hands-on session with a RED One camera. Multiple experienced minds are always better than one. Perhaps we'll have to do something like that with my RED #8.

And maybe some less experienced...just to watch and learn :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

I like TJ's suggestion of getting a bunch of shooters together for a hands-on session with a RED One camera. Multiple experienced minds are always better than one. Perhaps we'll have to do something like that with my RED #8.

Hey laughing boy.. That was MY idea (See below)... But I'll give TJ credit for being a nice guy.

Jay's famous quote:
You know in a perfect world, we could get 5-8 of us "shooters" together and go somewhere where there is a "RED" we can get our hands on and then go through the camera point by point, you, gibby, myself, and a couple others.. We could do in one day what would take a little longer otherwise.. Just a thought.

[Mike the beginner]

for mounting audio receivers haver a look at ugrip.dk. They make nice good looking mounts.

Thanks for that Axel, just have to get the price now!

Mike the beginner

[Antoine Baumann]

OUCH! That little.. Oh boy.. 720p here I come.

But this is for 10:1 compression, which is just what we heard, and as everything is subject to change....
and also my calcul was for 60p, but you could go for 30p (I guess your are in NTSC world), therefore dropping by two the bit rate.
320 gig @ 1080p 10 bit RGB 30fps will hold around 2 and half hour (still @ 10:1 compression)

The thing is that using 1080p format, you are recording RGB, while some other will record 2k or 4k RAW, which is a single channel format, meaning it is 3 times lighter than RGB....

antoine.

[tj williams]

HI Gibby, back from editing **** I see! Even though I didn't say it I shoulda said it! I think it would be great to get together maybe late in NAB if there and talk a bit. and wrestle the gear.

Jay. Do you shoot more 1080I or 24P We get a lot of requests for 24P recently. Laboprod any idea of the data rate for 24P 1080 and 720?

Looking at the rendering on the pricing page, basic config. I agree about the holes some 1/4 20 and 3/8 16 tapped holes, hopefully with helicoils if the piece is aluminum as it appears. The problem I see is this. With ENG lens weighing about 6 or 7 lbs and matte box 2 the place at the front under the flat spot might be the center or might not. However if it is the center of weight then when you put the camera on your shoulder it will be pretty front heavy. Unless you move the mag and batt back on the rail, which takes time.

This is the first time I've seen what I felt was a "real" configuration of the shoulder indentation. What I think would be the right answer for most of us is light weight support rods, RED RAil for the mag, battery and under the flat spot the front mount off a Sony Betacam etc. with the rear of the indentation holding the pin part.

The advantage of doing this is that by sliding the mag and battery it will be possible to balance the camera over the center of the shoulder indentation
Sony quick release when properly adjusted is pretty tight and fool proof easy to buy and so many folk already have a a few laying around.

If RED doesnt build this I wil probably see my fab guy and make a plate for the flat spot that raises the bottom to height of 100mm rods with proper holes. that has a piece coming up the front of the body to mount 60mm rods, and has Sony bolt pattern on the bottom to mount their slide to lock onto sony plate. on the rear a second plate to mount the rear sony spud.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The magazine/battery mount on the back should be quick and easy to remove. I'm sure that after creating a sub 20k 4k cinema camera they can create some strength yet simplicity on basic tools such as a mount.

I definitely think the best mounting place for the battery/magazine mount will be the back for hh work and top for tripod.

[Steve Gibby]

Jay,

Better late then never…my name is on the title of this thread, and my editing project is done, so here’s my input:

Looks like “da boyz” have stepped up and hooked you up with answers for the tech end of your questions. Since the thread is “How do we make money on this thing?”, and your tech questions have been answered, I’ll limit my input to practical uses of RED One that can generate revenue.

First off, think outside the circle – your circle of associates, and the circle of what you’ve usually done in motion media industry. RED One is above all else a convergence camera. If we want to maximize RED One’s earning potential, everyone’s biggest challenge will be to develop skill sets that are as broad as what the tech specs of RED One enable in the cine-style and EFP style production world. Bottom line: the tech specs of RED One enable potentially massive revenue generation, if users have the attitude and skill sets that are broad enough to match the camera.

We also need to think outside the circle on emerging distribution models. We all have a decent handle on the traditional distribution avenues for motion media: theaters, television, home DVD, etc. To maximize RED’s revenue potential we also need to distribute through every ancillary channel available: IPTV, web downloads, BluRay/HD-DVD, and many others that are emerging. We need to leave no stone unturned when it comes to distribution of our projects…

Here’s a very limited, partial list of genres and sub-genres that RED One will be able to technically handle in the workplace:

SOME OF MY SUGGESTED RED ONE USES AND ACQUISITION FORMATS

Note: 1080i, if needed, can be extracted from any format RED One shoots
Feature films (2540p, 4k, 2k)
Indie films (4k, 2k or 1080p)
HDTV programs (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Commercials (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Infomercials (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Stock footage acquisition (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Music videos (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Business videos (2k, 1080p, 720p)
HDTV News & promo b-roll (1080p, 720p)
POV deck (1080p, 720p, with a cigar cam)
POV mount camera (2k, 1080p, 720p)
In-water camera with a custom housing (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Aerial hand held and gimbal mounted (2k, 1080p, 720p)
Events of various sizes (1080p, 720p)
Film festival screenings (4k, 2k, 1080p, 720p)
Broadcast teases and promos (2k, 1080p, 720p)
Public service announcements (2k, 1080p, 720p)

It’s easy to work outward from there! I think our imaginations and comfort zones are the most limiting factors. We all know exactly what I mean, thoughts like:

“I’m just an indie guy”, “I won’t do freelance work”, “I’ve always done cine-style, so I won’t lower myself to do EFP”, “I’ve always done EFP, and there’s too much new stuff to learn in cine-style”, “What will my associates think if I shoot this small event?”, “But I just want to do features, nothing else”, “Nah, I won’t do sports production because those guys are just a bunch of point ‘n shoot simpletons”, “News b-roll stringing? I wouldn’t be caught dead doing that!”, “If it ain’t features, it ain’t real production!”, “Television? C’mon that’s for the lower classes, I’m a cinematographer!”, “I may get around to stock footage someday, but I don’t think I can make money at it”, “Business media?! C-mon, I’m an award-winning director! What would my friends think?”. “I’m not using those lenses, because I’ve always used these lenses!”. “I’ve always worked on sticks, it’s too late for me to learn hand held”. And on…and on…and on…and on…and on, and on…ad naseum

The list of excuses not to leave our comfort zone is truly endless! The reality is that if we can get out of our comfort zones, embrace what technology enables, and broaden our skill sets to match the capabilities of RED One, we will undoubtedly generate significantly increased revenue. Wrongly directed ego will kill you in the motion media business. If a potential project doesn’t compromise your principles, and you can make some revenue at it, which will free you up to pursue your dream projects, then why not do it? Don’t let ego stand in the way of revenue generation for your business. Art is art, but business is also business. Can a one-legged person in an ass-kicking contest hope to win it? Especially when matched against two-legged people? To be successful in today’s motion media industry we need to be equal parts technician, artist, manager, and journalist – not strong in one area and weak in others.

In summary, based on it’s technical specifications, modularity, flexibility, and it’s lens/accessory/format options, I believe that the RED One camera system will have the potential to generate a massive amount of revenue for it’s users, across the cine-style and EFP style industries – if those users have the open attitudes and broad skill sets that will maximize it’s potential.

Go get ‘em Jay! Kick ass and take names!

Hope this help…

[Stephen Williams]

“I’m just an indie guy”, “I won’t do freelance work”, “I’ve always done cine-style, so I won’t lower myself to do EFP”, “I’ve always done EFP, and there’s too much new stuff to learn in cine-style”, “What will my associates think if I shoot this small event?”, “But I just want to do features, nothing else”, “Nah, I won’t do sports production because those guys are just a bunch of point ‘n shoot simpletons”, “News b-roll stringing? I wouldn’t be caught dead doing that!”, “If it ain’t features, it ain’t real production!”, “Television? C’mon that’s for the lower classes, I’m a cinematographer!”, “I may get around to stock footage someday, but I don’t think I can make money at it”, “Business media?! C-mon, I’m an award-winning director! What would my friends think?”. “I’m not using those lenses, because I’ve always used these lenses!”. “I’ve always worked on sticks, it’s too late for me to learn hand held”. And on…and on…and on…and on…and on, and on…ad naseum



Hi,

I generally find telling people my daily rate gets me out of doing the work I don't want!

Stephen

[Steve Gibby]

Stephen,

No doubt! I've learned that trick too...although I've also learned to adjust my rates for what the market will bear if a project interests me!

The first thing I analyze in a potential project is if it truly interests me. If it does, and I have a gap in my schedule I'll usually tackle it.

If someone's heart is in their work, and they have talent, then tenacity will usually get them to where they want to go. If we do something well enough, for long enough, finances usually take care of themselves.

[jeffry alan]

Jay, Gibby and EFP/ENG guys: It would be great to get together at NAB and brainstorm some configurations or needs for a really minimalist setup for run and gun field production after we get our hands on it.

For my wildlife stuff I like the idea of the LCD if it works in daylight (maybe a hood will be needed too), a pistol grip with the record button on it along with focus assist maybe, a shotgun mount, RED FLASH instead of a hard drive......

Maybe we can set something up at the end of the conference?

J*

[Steve Gibby]

Hey J*,

I'm definitely up to that. If schedules are too hectic at NAB for us to do something like that, which will probably be the case, then an alternative idea would be to individually digest our impressions of all the hands-on stuff at RED's booth, and talk by email after NAB sometime. Looks like I'll only be at NAB on Monday and Tuesday now. I've had a project come up that will require me to leave on Wednesday morning.

I'm guessing that I'll have my first RED One camera sometime shortly after NAB, so I'll have some direct, real-world feedback to pass on.

[jeffry alan]

maybe an EFP usergroup (REFPUG) or forum could be setup in the future.

J*

[Ken Willinger]

A RED-EFP users group could be interesting. The majority of the work I do is in the EFP realm and that's how I plan to use this camera mostly. Brainstorming on how to effectively set this up for optimal use in our world will make life easier on all of us who will use it this way. I'm in!

[Jay A. Kelley]

I like the usergroup idea. Count me in on that.
Jay

Won't be at NAB.. Decided the amt of actual time with RED vs. plane cost and other expenses is not worth it. For the money I can buy the power setup
Jay

[Paul Hazlett]

count me in on any discussions user groups for ENG red. I dont do EFP
well maybe once in awhile.

[tj williams]

HI Gibby
I hope I shall also be invited. Nab?

[Steve Gibby]

TJ,

I don't know if we'll succeed in matching everyone's schedules at NAB for such a thing, but I definitely feel that everyone who is interested in EFP issues should network as much as possible. I can't speak for Jarred, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him at some point split off an EFP area of this forum, where users could go to find "all things EFP".

No matter what, at NAB I look forward to meeting you and others I haven't met. I'll be at the RED booth several times on Monday and Tuesday.

[tj williams]

Gibby didn't realize you were in central California, I shot a film in Hollister one time. Great area. If a bunch of us can get together that would be nice. LIke a lot of people who live in secondary markets we do a variety of things. HD tv is
for spots and corporations, certainly a bigger market here than feature films. As my partner and I also do Steadicam, Cranes, Scuba dive, and work some B unit, shoot some docs, nature films etc. etc.
I'm already pretty attuned to your wide variety of work ideal. To achieve that all you have to do is survive for a long while in a smaller market.

[WesG]

A vote from me for an ENG/EFP forum or discussion group.

I'm particular interested in anything relavent to
- run'n'gun shooting
- quick turn arounds in post production
- on-the-day delivery of rushes
- managing Red and backing up media on the road

Basically anything that will contribute to the idea of a one man band shooting, cutting and delivering all in the same day (or the ealry hours the next morning :help: )

[Jay A. Kelley]

Is it true I can shoot 1080p or 720p and capture directly to a Quicktime codec in camera?

If so what is the amt of time per gig I get this way?

Just curious? Also does this stuff stiff have to be "processed" before editing? If not, then do we white balance this in camera?

Gibby I loved your post about doing a bunch of different things, but my main goal for this thread was a detailed breakdown of the camera itself and what it may or may not need to be an effective ENG/EFP shooting camera with what it's currently providing.. And looking for things that may be needed in the future.. I may not have made this clear when I started.

The camera is designed for Feature. music video, commercial, etc. work so there's no real challenge there, but the "Run & Gun" crowd have specific needs and I would like to focus on those if possible.

A good start is, how fast can we get this thing off the tripod and hand-held? Do we need RED to design a quick release plate?

Sorry if I was not clear on this

Jay

[Steve Gibby]

TJ,

Yeah, I'm based on the coast near San Luis Obispo. It's a lifestyle choice - mountains, vineyards, beaches, low crowds, and clean air - all within 3 hours drive of downtown L.A. (which is where I have to go weekly). Tradeoff for the driving time is the piece of mind.

Point of trivia on Hollister: That's where the classic film "The Wild Ones", with Marlon Brando, was filmed. Cool little town...

I hear ya on the versatility factor...I never wanted to be niched into a little box on content, genres, or mediums...and I've worked hard not to be. It works for me...

[Steve Gibby]

Jay,

I saw that everyone had already answered most of the tech questions you had, noticed that the title of the thread was "How do we make money on this thing?", and decided to give some input on the fiscal and business end of that question. Tech is wonderful and necessary - but making a living using tech takes some well-defined strategy.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay,

I saw that everyone had already answered most of the tech questions you had, noticed that the title of the thread was "How do we make money on this thing?", and decided to give some input on the fiscal and business end of that question. Tech is wonderful and necessary - but making a living using tech takes some well-defined strategy.


There's no debating that point.. But the numbers show (And I believe you were the first to bring them up) that the talking head, industrial shooting industry dwarfs all the others in terms of number of jobs per day. So while we all want to be as varied as possible, odds are a lot of us will spend some serious time doing corporate shoots. Almost ALL of todays cameras (not counting viper, genisis, and the like) are designed to handle this industry and THEN they try to call themselves "cine cameras". RED has taken more the approach of the bigger boys, designing a "cine camera" first and THEN trying to accomidate the industrial crowd.

Signs of this would be the power tap for zoom lenses, the B4mount adaptor, etc. Jim himself said early on in this thread that if we needed something he could design and build it.

So the question is: Is the camera completely ready for this type of shooting? Yes or no. The following issues have been brough up, but were never answered or dealt with:

Is a quick-release plate for the camera nessesary?
Is that shoulder pad really gonna work? Seems kind of shallow in teh padding area.
Where are audio controls? Are they operator friendly? If not what is the workaround? (A PDA using USB2, will that control audio)?
Are there audio monitors in the EVF or LCD?
Best shooting format? We use a lot of time on tape.. Are we best suited to 1080RGB and then useing the quicktime codec? How much record time does that give?

Offloading footage during lunch? To what? How? How fast? How many?

I'm talking about the boring details here.. The stuff we'd EXPECT from your normal video camera that may NOT be on a RED.

From all this I would LOVE to come up with a recommended package for the industrial shooter, a workflow suggestion, and any additional parts and or items needed to round out our jobs.

A good example is RED will not have ND filters built in. However, perhaps an ND .3 screw on would accomplish most issues, or we will just have to scrim & ND our lights better and deal with it that way. I think avoiding a Mattebox if possible would be a good call. I'm not saying don't have one, just try not to need one.

If we had an ENG user group, this would be some of our main topics starting out. Jim and the boys (And girls Kelly), are listening and know the importance of this market. The camera is far enough along now to get the wheels on this thing and make it work.

One main question on my mind is dumping off footage and how SAFE do we need to be.. I would expect at LEAST two destinations. A client supplied HD and your own as a back up for problems.

Gibby I COMPELTELY agree in the "gotta do a lot of stuff to live" belief, but in almost every market other than the coast, it's industrial that rules. It's a bummer, but you know it's true..

A major avenue for HD right now are trade show booths.. These plasma screens are being bought up like water and put on the head of every booth you can imagine.. I have shot three of them in the last 4 weeks.

I hope everyone will look at the camera renders closely, and start asking questions like, ok so I gotta do a 5 min sit down and then I'm only scheduled 10 min after that for a buttload of B-Roll.. It will have to be handheld, how does RED do in this area? How much will I have to mess with to get it ready? Is is a flip of a switch and POP, I'm off.. Or moving, screwing, unscrewing, and now I am late.

Jay

Lord knows I love ya Gibster! And your post is dead on.. But I'd really like to focus on this one area for a bit, I think Jim and the boys would like to know if anything is missing or needs changing as well.

[Steve Gibby]

Jay,

Ah ha...I understand…

If you re-look at my Post #34 partial list of ideas to make money with RED One, you'll see that I did pay attention to industrial shooting and talking head stuff: Infomercials, Business Videos, HDTV News & B-roll stringing, and Public Service Announcements. A very important part of my overall business model has always included those genres, and my international and national clients have included many large corporations. With larger business videos (turnkey) ranging from $2k to $4k per finished minute, and hi-def being what they now demand, it is a significant way for RED One owners to generate the revenue to pay off their equipment and then finance their indie dream projects. When my company was based in Las Vegas we milked the trade show circuit for all it was worth. I produced high-end content for companies exhibiting at almost every major trade show in Vegas while we were based there: NAB, PMA, SIMA, and on and on…

I think the tech questions in your post are best answered after NAB. At NAB, and simultaneously on the RED web site and here on RED User, we'll get full flick on the parameters of what is possible and feasible with RED One, including the plusses and limitations for EFP field production. I hate to sidestep your tech questions, but at present all we can do is speculate on most of them. Since you can't make it to NAB, I'd hawk the RED and RED User web sites on 4/16. Those of us who go to NAB will be posting our impressions here, plus people like me who have early camera numbers will be testing our cameras immediately and posting our impressions. You know I work in both cine-style and EFP style workflows so you can be sure I'll post my impressions.

I believe RED has been well aware of the potential uses of RED One for the EFP industry from the beginning. I was an invited attendee to the very first RED One spec meeting at Oakley in December 20005, and there and ever since I've been suggesting to RED that they to pay attention to the EFP capability of the RED One camera. Many others on this forum and other forums have suggested the same thing to RED – build in EFP capability. Stuart English, RED Team Workflow Wizard comes from a stellar EFP industry background. If you analyze the specs, accessories, lens capability, and formats, of RED One, its apparent that RED has listened to us and incorporated extensive EFP capability into RED One - something that should make EFP and both-styles shooters feel real warm and fuzzy!

:biggrin:

[jeffry alan]

Hey Jay,

Gibby and I talked about the EFP aspects of the RED months ago, starting out on dvinfo.net and then hvxuser before reduser was started, and although we had some good dialogue (you can do a search for his/our posts), I think we all are going to have to get a hands on at NAB, and then wait till Gibby gets one of the first ones to play with and see what he has to say.

The best aspect of this camera is it's adaptability with accessories, being able to rig it for whatever your needs are. That said, there are features that will be lacking, limiting some of us field guys, (or better, making us get creative about workarounds) like one handed operation, focus issues, ruggedness (like flash vs. hard drive according to Jim), shoulder mounts, audio monitoring, etc. That is why an EFP/ENG forum will eventually be needed (I asked Jarred to start another dedicated forum for that), and critical input from the first users will help us decide how to deal.

If you are doing industrials you probably want to set up differently than for field use. In the field I want a guerilla set up that is as fast and efficient as I can make it. Personally, I think an appropriate laptop with additional media storage is going to be a crucial component wherever you are.

This camera is going to be a very adaptable tool which I hope bridges the gap for us indies to higher quality imaging at an affordable price.

And remember, Jim and the rest of RED are reading these posts and responding to us, so that has to be a good thing for everybody.

J*

(damn Gibby you beat me to it, I gotta type faster)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have to agree with Jay that corporate shoots are the bread and butter for a lot of us. Here are some ideas I have for dealing with Jay's laundry list of issues:

Hopefully at NAB we will see the easy quick change plate RED has for us, if not then tj's friend (or some other 3rd party) may have quite a little business making a rig for interfacing with Sony plates.

Again, let's see the actual shoulder pad at NAB, if its poor then its another 3rd party opportunity.

I will be shocked if RED doesn't have easy to use audio pots and metering in the EVF & LCD.

Best shooting format - see Gibby's post. IMHO you find out what the footage is being used for and how it is likely to be viewed then choose accordingly. In most cases the producer will specify the format that goes to the editor.

Strategy for offloading footage. I am putting together a production van with a fast computer so I can run the raw footage through RedCine on site and deliver on Firewire drives. In the beginning I plan to make two copies to disk and keep them for the client for a specified period of time. Obviously buying and equipping a van is costly (and impractical for flypack gigs) so I hope to see a better solution evolve over time.

How fast can RedCine transcode and can the system write the files to the disk? That's a very good question that I don't expect us to know until NAB. This is a critical piece for EFP.

I always use a matte box, even on the industrial stuff.

Sign me up for the EFP group but lets not spin our wheels too much when NAB is so close and may render some issues moot. Come April 20th we should directly address every remaining issue in your post and then some.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I feel like this thread is moving in the right direction now!! (At least for me, and ad everyone on my set knows, it's all about me and my needs!!!)

Sadly we have 4 weeks and this thread may die by then, but we'll bring it back unless Jarred makes an ENG thread before then.

Nevertheless, thanks for listening and changing direction guys.. It's something I don't see happen on cinematography.com.. They would have launched into a massive arguement and debate and I would have been forgotten.

I like it here..

I am SO BUMMED I won't be at NAB, but it's just not a good call for me right now.

Jay

[jeffry alan]

Thanks to Jarred, a dedicated EFP/ENG forum for the RED camera is now up.

Check it out and give your two cents.

J*