Choices: Where do you compromise ?

[Appleton]

so, after this thread about prices i was going over my ff and mattbox choices and i'm lookin' them over again.

initially, i was told that a 6 X mb would probably be needed for the RED zoom and Arri's version is $7K?, then you add on the 15mm adaptor for both the RED rails and the mb -> how will they operate together? will the lightweight ff be good enough for the zoom? and then there's the graduated filters. what if RED puts out a prime set? (how wide they go will be a determinant if you need the 6 X mb).

a follow focus is going to be needed, but again the arri lightweight ff is still $7k. how will the adapter to the adaptor to the adaptor work? which brands will work best? can you get away with petroff?

long story, where will you allocate your funds? go for a cheaper tripod? a middle level computer instead of the new Macs? where do you see compromises in production for narrative digital cinema alright to do?

probably a silly post, but i was hmm'ing about it ever since the full price list

[Shawn Nelson]

A tough one. For me I'm cheaping out on the Matte box and Follow focus so I can see how much I need better ones. If the matte box is ruining my life then I flip the cheap one on eBay and get a better one. For me I am glad the Red zoom isn't out yet, because I don't have that extra $10k now. It gives me 6 months or so to dink around with Nikkors, get a feel for all of this before I pony up for the real zoom. It also makes me not want the expensive matte box or ff since I'll have to buy different ones to accomodate the zoom.

[chuck colburn]

A tough one. For me I'm cheaping out on the Matte box and Follow focus so I can see how much I need better ones. If the matte box is ruining my life then I flip the cheap one on eBay and get a better one. For me I am glad the Red zoom isn't out yet, because I don't have that extra $10k now. It gives me 6 months or so to dink around with Nikkors, get a feel for all of this before I pony up for the real zoom. It also makes me not want the expensive matte box or ff since I'll have to buy different ones to accomodate the zoom.

Hey Shawn,

Yes that's one way to look at it. I've also seen a real nice 6.6x6.6 Victor Duncan swing away mattebox system with dual rotating holders, lens mattes, anvil case etc. go for under 2k recently. Some zooms and all the faster telephoto lenses are going to require a 138mm diameter or larger filtration system.
Those smaller 4x4" matteboxes will serve you well for most (not all) primes though.
So far as follow focus units go, just by the best you can no matter when you by it.
So aside from this rambling babble, how are you? Getting any sleep? You lucky #8 you!

Chuck

[Appleton]

i hear ya, Shawn. i just can't see buying a ff and mb then reselling when the zoom comes out. maybe, my dislike of ebay has to do with it :wink: also, i'm considering some Russian primes (very undecided) so i'd hate to wait/resell etc...if i'm ready to roll on a feature with the primes. although, it's a good idea to work with stills for awhile until the zoom comes out to get some shooting done and work out workflow.

going from a small prod.house "rent everything" to more personal prod. house "own the art" is a different mindset.

maybe, after NAB, the RED dudes could do a informal "gear we use" in three price points ->low cost choices. mid, and high cost choices...?

Chuck, if the RED zoom comes in at/under the 114mm diameter of the Arri compact zoom, do you think the arri Lb4 might be alright? anyone ever tried to fix light shields to it? ... and have you used the chrosziel or petroff ff's what's it play?

it's the mix of lightweight, and gets the job done (if not as good as the top end) products at a decent price point that i'm looking for. and suggestions ...

[chuck colburn]

Hi Appleton,
No I have not used the Petroff or Chorizeo so I can't make a judgement on their backlash. They do have good reputations though. Which Arri zoom are you speaking of? Is it for 35 or S16?
I just brought up the 6.6x6.6 mattebox because sometimes bigger is better. Like if your using sliding grads and because it would cover all concievable situations.

Chuck

[Appleton]

Which Arri zoom are you speaking of? Is it for 35 or S16?
I just brought up the 6.6x6.6 mattebox because sometimes bigger is better. Like if your using sliding grads and because it would cover all concievable situations.

ChuckHi, this is the one I'm guesstimating that the RED zoom sorta looks like. http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/198_1173849865.jpg
Name: Lightweight Zoom LWZ-1
Focal Length Range: 15.5 - 45 mm Focal Length Ratio: 3:1 Aperture: T2.6 - T22 Close Focus (2): 0.45 m/18 inches Length (front to PL mount flange): 209 mm/8.2 inches
Front Diameter: 114 mm/4.5 inches
Weight: around 2 kg/4.4 lbs
Horizontal Angle of View (3): at 15.5 mm: 90.2° at 45 mm: 40.0°
Front Element: Radical aspherical lens Lens Coating (1): T* XP Coverage: The complete ANSI Super 35 image area (24.9 mm x 18.7 mm/0.980" x 0.7362")

i know the RED zoom is 18-85mm so it's probably larger...

originally the Arri 6K mb was what we were looking at for precisely the reasons you mention - using almost any lens on it, graduated filters and i'm not a fan of hard mattes (which the 6X avoids more, IMHO).

we've decided on a light lighting package, and specfic sound for grabbed shots and bush shooting, so there's no big dough in those departments. (rent for all else). we don't know where else to look for savings except for mb, ff, comp specs and monitoring...

i really need to try a variety of combos before my RED ships. we can't make NAB, although it'll probably be more demo than hands on (understandably).

spending 16-18K on mb,ff (pretax+ precurrency valuation) wouldn't leave much for the above the line talent..hehe...

[chuck colburn]

Hi, this is the one I'm guesstimating that the RED zoom sorta looks like. http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/198_1173849865.jpg
Name: Lightweight Zoom LWZ-1
Focal Length Range: 15.5 - 45 mm Focal Length Ratio: 3:1 Aperture: T2.6 - T22 Close Focus (2): 0.45 m/18 inches Length (front to PL mount flange): 209 mm/8.2 inches
Front Diameter: 114 mm/4.5 inches
Weight: around 2 kg/4.4 lbs
Horizontal Angle of View (3): at 15.5 mm: 90.2° at 45 mm: 40.0°
Front Element: Radical aspherical lens Lens Coating (1): T* XP Coverage: The complete ANSI Super 35 image area (24.9 mm x 18.7 mm/0.980" x 0.7362")

i know the RED zoom is 18-85mm so it's probably larger...

originally the Arri 6K mb was what we were looking at for precisely the reasons you mention - using almost any lens on it, graduated filters and i'm not a fan of hard mattes (which the 6X avoids more, IMHO).

we've decided on a light lighting package, and specfic sound for grabbed shots and bush shooting, so there's no big dough in those departments. (rent for all else). we don't know where else to look for savings except for mb, ff, comp specs and monitoring...

i really need to try a variety of combos before my RED ships. we can't make NAB, although it'll probably be more demo than hands on (understandably).

spending 16-18K on mb,ff (pretax+ precurrency valuation) wouldn't leave much for the above the line talent..hehe...

Hi Appleton.

First off, since when is talent above the line? hehe
Second, no talking about bush shooting. You never know when the NSA is lurking!
I just spent some time over at the Arri home site. This appears to be a very nice lens. The reason the front diameter is that large is they made it the same as their speed primes. Makes for quick change out as you don't need to swap the doughnut on the mattebox. There is also the fact that it is a complete system as it intercuts with the primes and accepts their master diopters. All in all a very nice lens and if it fits your budget you certianly can't go wrong. Also resale will remain high.
I don't know where you are located, (OZ ?) but if you need to decide soon is there a rental house close enough that would let you set the lens and related pieces up to see if they fit your needs?
I haven't seen any photos of the RED zoom but 85mm at f2.8 is only around
30mm for a simple lens. Don't know how big their barrel is, but I could see this lens as only being 50-60mm outside diameter. But I could be wrong. If it is that small you could use it with the Arri. 4x4 mattebox. There is a nice one on ebay right now.
Good luck,

Chuck

[Bruce Allen]

As far as cheap matte boxes go, I know RedRock's going to be coming out with a $500 4x5.6 at NAB... plastic, but hey, it's only $500. It means you'll have the cash left over to rent that Arri 6x6 when you need it. Of couse there are also (in ascending order of price and also, not sucking, methinks) Cavision, Formatt, Chrosziel. Petroff and Cinevate ones are 4x4 only, right?

For cheap follow focus, again, look at RedRock (they have supposedly fixed the play that was present in their first iteration) and Cinevate (they make the Brevis adapter and are working on a nice-looking follow focus system in conjunction with Dan Diaconu - the guy who made the nice-looking gears on this page: http://www.pixelmill.com.au/Mini35/Lenses.html ... although LordNumberZero mentioned in another thread that Dan's gears are good but that his old follow focus not so much... maybe the new one is better?). Both of them are also working on remote follow focus systems (again, on the lower end of the pricing ladder...). I think you also have Formatt, Chrosziel, etc there too.

But then, hey, I am researching this stuff in order to go with a cheap Canon HV20 + 35mm adapter system with an 1280x768 LCD panel bought direct from a guy in China and modified for transreflective... all of the above for under $3000... so my needs are proably lower-end than you guys'. I figured to spend more on the rails, matte box and follow-focus systems since those don't go out of date and in 5 years I can swap out the Canon HV20 for a Red Two...

Any thoughts on those, good Red people?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Appleton]

Hey Chuck, thanx for looking at it. the Arri's definately not in my budget (for purchase anyway). the all purpose RED zoom is more in the ballpark (or Russian lenses if we can work out a prime kit sale). the only reason as i'm using it as a guesstimate is it's the newest light weight compact zoom out on the market .

i am guessing about the tech behind the lens manufacturing (RED's) and as Jim mentioned, there's a lot of misinformation so i could be off on the diameter. the Cooke zooms are 150mm, so i was presupposing the RED zoom could best be near the Arri (114mm). all of this is dependant on the elements they choose to incorporate, fo sure. (i'm not an expert).

all of this may be pre-NAB, but since we're fairly low on the rez list, either we committ to stills for experimentation (rent for work) or buy the mid level mb, ff, that has the 'useable' quality without the dough and that can cover most eventualities.

gonna go check out the Petroff offerings and try and get some info...i like Arri (except for their digital cinema), so taking them out of the budget makes me
sad.

i love well designed gear. or anything done with precision, for that matter. RED's a testament to that ...

[Appleton]

Bruce, never tried the Redrock. honestly, the people i've talked to aren't too enthusiastic. i'm sure with the right combo you could get good results. maybe with a bigger market they could get some mid price products out there that combine digital and cine characteristics.


not familiar with Formatt, too much. i like your idea of buying a switchable mb/ff for RED2 Bruce. with us, we're going to (most likely, hopefully, if we can do it) use cine lenses exclusively, so the ff will have to be pretty robust and cinecentric.

hmm, just don't see where the budget can be trimmed, but i'll keep lookin'. RED's price list was very fair. budgets are all finesse sometimes...

[Bruce Allen]

Haha, thanks Appleton. Although realistically I must admit instead of getting a Red Two in 5 years' time it's more likely I'll be getting a used Red One in about 8 years' time ;)

[chuck colburn]

Appleton

I know you spoke of an adversion to ebay. But perhaps a compact mattebox like this might be handy for "bush shooting" with smaller primes.
And then find a larger one for zoom and studio work. Anyhow it's a swing away which is really handy and it rotates. These are the functions which seperate the pro from the consumer. If Red would tell you the front diameter of their zoom you could decide if it would be worth your while or not.

Chuck

http://cgi.ebay.com/Arri-4x4-Matte-Box_W0QQitemZ160095721852QQcategoryZ4691QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

[Clayton Harper]

although LordNumberZero mentioned in another thread that Dan's gears are good but that his old follow focus not so much... maybe the new one is better?).

I did say that. I just want to clarify that I found the materials to be lacking with the Dan D follow focus and the fact that it mounted on one rod to be a little vexing at times. It did however, pull focus accurately and have nice tight gearing.

I am looking at the Chrosziel 203-01S right now although I may just go for a Petroff DV if its well made.

[Appleton]

Bruce, 8K RED 3...can't wait :-)

Chuck, yeah my e-bay dislike is bananas. besides books/dvds i need to see and compare in person.
(which makes my RED purchase way out of character, haha)

LordNumberzero, i'd be interested on your thoughts on the Petroff, if you get a chance to play with one.

thanks, dudes