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Roger Valdes
02-22-2013, 07:04 AM
I wonder if this is going to affect the pricing on Red Ray.
Sony's PS4 can play 4k at 400$ (estimated)

Andy White
02-22-2013, 07:35 AM
Well, the PS3 was pretty much responsible for Blu-Ray take up (in a wider market) and it killed off the competing HD format (HDDVD).

The PS3 idea of a media hub was new (at the time) in 2006, as the Xbox was targeted as more of a games system.

Basically, Sony are using the PS4 to push 4K (UHD) playback... but they have not discussed any 'delivery' medium yet (Blu-ray, drive, stream or cloud etc). They have also not listed full specs... until then, it's hard to judge (ie games are already noted as being 1080 only as 4K isn't viable).

It looks like Sony is using the idea of a media platform again, with 4k/UHD being the carrot now (rather than 1080P/Blu-Ray).

Red have set out their stall already, Sony have done a partial reveal and there's still a lot of questions to be answered on the PS4.

Until then, I really doubt that it'll change any of Jim/Jarred's or Reds plans, as the market isn't the same.

Phil Holland
02-22-2013, 07:41 AM
Well one's been discussed and that's Netflix. They are going 4K and the PS4 will support it. Much of the hush is due to the lack of infrastructure and development on everybody's corner at the moment. E3 will be revealing. They didn't showcase hardware at the launch, which to me means a whole lot is up in the air. You can bet a pretty penny we'll be seeing HDMI 2.0 in that PS4 though.

Blu-Ray supports 4K playback and has the space to cover a full feature via h.265 (HEVC). But that standard is also brand spanking new. It will be what you'll be streaming 4K content with for the most part.

.RED is going to be higher quality and much more suitable for theatrical presentations.

Stacey Spears
02-22-2013, 11:00 AM
PS4 will most likley use H.264 for 4k, which will probably result in 8-bit 4:2:0. REDRAY is said to use a higher bitdepth, so that gives it an advantage.

The PS4 most likely does not have HW support for H.265. At this time only 8-bit 4:2:0 H.265 is done. 10-bit and 4:2:2 are another year or more away.

Petri Teittinen
02-22-2013, 12:50 PM
Blu-Ray supports 4K playback
Why does this misinformation keep doing rounds? Blu-ray does not support 4K playback. Blu-ray Disc Association created a workgroup last October to look into the possibility but the work is still in progress.

Jake Bastian
02-22-2013, 01:06 PM
Playstation 4 is NOT 4K.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/playstation-4-wont-support-4k-games-3d-not-a-focus

Might suck for us, but decreased resolution means more power left for higher poly models. I see it as a win, honestly.

Edit: misread - no 4K games, 4K video yes. Carry on.

Zhang Ming
02-23-2013, 10:44 PM
GTX690 can handle UHD games easily...
BMD Extream4K can handle 4:2;2 4K video well...

Jake Wilganowski
02-23-2013, 10:56 PM
Playstation 4 is NOT 4K.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/playstation-4-wont-support-4k-games-3d-not-a-focus

Might suck for us, but decreased resolution means more power left for higher poly models. I see it as a win, honestly.

Edit: misread - no 4K games, 4K video yes. Carry on.

Bummer. I think cg gameplay in 4k could really push everything forward quickly. I'm suprised. When the leap does come, it's gonna be huge...

Phil Holland
02-23-2013, 11:58 PM
Why does this misinformation keep doing rounds? Blu-ray does not support 4K playback. Blu-ray Disc Association created a workgroup last October to look into the possibility but the work is still in progress.

Apologies. Blu-ray can "potentially" support 4K as a format via it's current abilities as a storage medium.

The general research on h.265 points to approximately 18-30 Mbps for 4K at 24-30fps. Which makes it suitable for single layer Blu-Ray and even potentially up to 60fps content via double layer Blu-ray. (and still a hell of a download mind you)

There isn't currently a 4K Blu-ray player on the market, although there are now players that upscale to 4K apparently. Our current technology of encoding and playing back Blu-ray is not what's going to be used because the file sizes would be too large. Since the spec of the newer HEVC has opened the potential for this we'll likely see new players available on the market. Blu-ray as a storage medium with newer encoding and decoding methods are what's being talked about. That's not taking into accound BDXL discs.

What's left for manufacturers to decide is really whether streaming or a disc solution is the focus. Streaming is clearly going to happen. They'll need to decide if the profit margin is there to sell newer 4K Blu-ray discs and hardware.

Will this h.265 content be suitable for theatrical projection? Probably not from a quality standpoint at those bit rates. Which is why .RED is so appealing as the quality level is there and the file size is extremely competitive. Making things like the REDRAY Player and ODEMAX very nice options for both theater and home use.

L. Langer
02-24-2013, 07:50 AM
Why does this misinformation keep doing rounds? Blu-ray does not support 4K playback. Blu-ray Disc Association created a workgroup last October to look into the possibility but the work is still in progress.

Incorrect. It does support 4K because the underlying tech allows it. Currently, 4K video can easily be encoded to fit on a 50GB disc thanks to the advancements in h.264 encoding and decoding optimization - which has allowed 4K for a while now - and triple/quad-layer discs with 100GB capacity for high-bitrate content have been a reality for several years and only require software tweaks to enable playback in existing players despite not being part of the standard. The "workgroup" is merely an informal thing where Sony and Panasonic - the two companies that essentially control the format - share what they have been working on with other companies to determine the standards and such. The actual 4K workgroup has been working behind the scenes for a few years now and is not composed of anyone you'll see on BDA write-ups because they are engineers and such that work with others from other companies to create 4K displays and video playback solutions. 4K Blu-Ray is coming very soon.

Petri Teittinen
02-24-2013, 09:50 AM
Incorrect. It does support 4K because the underlying tech allows it.
Oh, okay. Encode a few 4K clips in H.264, author a 4K Blu-ray Disc out of them and play the disc in a Blu-ray player, outputting 4K. Oops, you can't. 4K is not in the Blu-ray spec, i.e. Blu-ray does not support 4K - that's what I'm saying. Claiming it does because you can encode 4K files and burn them on BD-R is quite disingenious, as if I was talking about the media only which I of course was not.


4K Blu-Ray is coming very soon.
Define "coming" and "very soon".

Mike P.
02-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Actually, you could record a data disc full of 4k files and play them off the disc. So technically it could play 4k h264 files off of a blu-ray, CD, DVD, USB, HDD, etc. You can do that with current PS3 (with 1080p files not 4k)... that is, play 1080p files off of disc that aren't necessarily authored to Blu-Ray spec, but instead made as data disc to hold 25gb or video files. Being that most 4k content will probably be streamed and disc-based media is fading off, I'd imagine that file based movie clips would be quite popular moving forward... It'd be really funny if the PS4 included .RED codec support, although that would really make RRay moot... It's probably possible; RED is releasing a .RED codec for PCs/Mac, right?

As for official "4k Blu-Ray" I seem to recall them mentioning it as well, but I didn't hear a timeframe (they also mentioned upscaled 1080p BD-Rs looking better, but that's not something I would pay for.)

Rob Anderson
02-25-2013, 03:04 AM
This is like saying DVD's are 1080P HD... because you can copy 1080 HD files onto them, then play back those files using a decoder. That'd also make ZIP and JAZZ drives 1080 HD players too(!).

Media storage =/= playback spec. Blu-Ray is not 4K. I had previously thought it was too. Easy mistake to make but 4K delivery is still very much being fleshed out.

Charles_Z
02-25-2013, 08:29 AM
This is like saying DVD's are 1080P HD... because you can copy 1080 HD files onto them, then play back those files using a decoder. That'd also make ZIP and JAZZ drives 1080 HD players too(!).

Media storage =/= playback spec. Blu-Ray is not 4K. I had previously thought it was too. Easy mistake to make but 4K delivery is still very much being fleshed out.

Well there is a BD9 and BD5 spec for HD on DVD media...

Darren Orange
02-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Oh, okay. Encode a few 4K clips in H.264, author a 4K Blu-ray Disc out of them and play the disc in a Blu-ray player, outputting 4K. Oops, you can't. 4K is not in the Blu-ray spec, i.e. Blu-ray does not support 4K - that's what I'm saying. Claiming it does because you can encode 4K files and burn them on BD-R is quite disingenious, as if I was talking about the media only which I of course was not.


Define "coming" and "very soon".

Sony is pretty darn smart. I think they will figure out how to get this all to work. Mind you maybe the major reason they have not released too much detail. Regardless...the damn PS4 could play back a 4K file it would seem its got the guts for it, so it seems almost for sure they will find a way to make blu-ray support it.

We are guessing here on what Blu-ray can do but perhaps we should just sit back and see as it can do it...but will the spec exist. I say yes it will.

Jude Byard
03-01-2013, 03:43 AM
I read that PS4 Blu ray can play 4K files or movies from one of their senior CEOs. I'll grab the link.

Jude Byard
03-01-2013, 03:49 AM
Here's the link:

http://www.hfrmovies.com/2013/02/22/ps4-supports-4k-video-and-photos-but-not-4k-games-may-output-up-to-240-fps/

Roger Valdes
03-01-2013, 12:49 PM
There goes the neighbourhood....

http://gizmodo.com/5987717/sonys-4k-movie-streaming-will-work-on-ps4++at-100gb-a-pop

Any idea how much bandwith and diskspace an avarage .RED movie will chew up?

Tom Lowe
04-02-2013, 11:04 AM
The advantage of Redray is the compression. Even if Sony uses H264, the file size for 4K movie downloads is going to be very large. Believe me, I know, because I encoded my film "TimeScapes" to H264 4K, and it's only 45 mins long. Are people willing -- or even able -- to download 50GB or 100GB 4K movies onto a PS4? I wonder how ISPs will feel about that?

Somehow, I don't know how, Red has managed to get beautiful 4K films down to roughly the same file size you might expect from a 1080p Bluray rip on bit torrents -- so roughly in the 10GB range, or less. That is a massive advantage.

Clark Dunbar
04-02-2013, 11:18 AM
awhile back - Jim stated that the internal 1TB drive on the REDRay Player would hold approx -> 100 hours of 4K material in the .RED codec

Mark Baluk
04-02-2013, 11:23 AM
This is like saying DVD's are 1080P HD... because you can copy 1080 HD files onto them, then play back those files using a decoder. That'd also make ZIP and JAZZ drives 1080 HD players too(!).

Media storage =/= playback spec. Blu-Ray is not 4K. I had previously thought it was too. Easy mistake to make but 4K delivery is still very much being fleshed out.
However, just to note, you can author a 1080p BluRay disc up to 4.7 gb, and burn that onto a DVDr and play back on a blu ray player (but not a dvd player)

Right?

Jeff Kilgroe
04-02-2013, 11:54 AM
H.265 is what people are going to be using for mainstream video delivery starting late this year and into next year. This especially pertains to UHD/4K as well. File sizes are several times smaller than current H.264 compressed files. From what I've seen of H.265 samples, it's better than H.264/X.264 in terms of quality, but isn't going to match up with the abilities of REDRAY. REDRAY has less visual artifacting and is intended out of the gate to support broader color spaces. H.265 can do this is as well, but that's not what the market implementations are aiming for. REDRAY is going to have a large advantage for overall image quality at similar file sizes compared to H.265. Unfortunately it seems it's going to come at a premium in terms of the hardware costs. And possibly in terms of content pricing as well. Hopefully all will be made a lot more clear this next week at NAB.

Sony, LG and Samsung all have 4K players built into their larger 4K/UHD TV's. But these are nothing more than a common PC. Sony and LG are both using Dell systems based around i5 CPUs, 8GB RAM and an AMD 79xx series GPU. Samsung is using a similar deal, actually it seems to be the guts out of one of their higher-end notebooks -- mobile i7, 8GB and it seems to be an nvidia GPU, possibly the 680M.

PlayStation showing at CES was very vague. Intentionally so I would guess, to keep it shrouded in mystery and hype until the launch later this year. Microsoft is being equally secretive about the upcoming XBOX. Roku, Boxee and Google will all have UHD capable media players available within a year. Netfilx will be streaming H.265 based UHD content via a premium service by the end of 2014, sooner if they can. It will operate on those aforementioned media players, as well as the PlayStation4, various UHD TV's that can be upgraded to support it...

REDRAY is going to need to provide some form of value to attract customers. Be it superior content availability, superior image quality, or whatever. But the $1400 price tag isn't going to fly when 4K streamed directly to a home screen via existing services is going to happen in the next 8 to 14 months for under $400 for the box to do it...

Blair S. Paulsen
04-02-2013, 12:37 PM
H.265 is what people are going to be using for mainstream video delivery starting late this year and into next year. (snip)
REDRAY is going to need to provide some form of value to attract customers. Be it superior content availability, superior image quality, or whatever. But the $1400 price tag isn't going to fly when 4K streamed directly to a home screen via existing services is going to happen in the next 8 to 14 months for under $400 for the box to do it...

The move to H.265 holds great promise, though I fear the major players will just use it to cut bit rates rather then making better pictures at current bit rates.

IMO the RedRay value proposition is primarily about better image quality. One could argue that on a large UHD/4K panel, or when projected, the compression artifacts that slip by the average viewer on a 50" panel viewed from 9 feet away will register. Who wants to pay big bucks just to see compression nasties? Based on early reports the more complex .RED codec is roughly 3 times more efficient in terms of quality to bit rate ratio. If that estimate is accurate, then matching 10mb/s .RED IQ would require 30mb/s in H.265 (and roughly 120mb/s in H.264). As a reference 1080 Blu-Ray's top out at 20mb/s and 4K DCP's at 250mb/s.

Last I checked the average broadband connection in the US is less than 2mb/s downstream. Using that as a reference, a RedRay download of a 2 hour feature encoded at 10mb/s would take 10 hours, the H.265 30 hours, H.264 5 days. Many of the early adopters of UHD/4K tech will have far faster connections, some even able to buffer for less than a minute before streaming the movie.

I've made a number of assumptions and estimates in this post, so its hardly gospel, but I do think its important to start looking at the bigger picture (pun intended)

Cheers - #19

Mike P.
04-02-2013, 12:58 PM
I don't think the end-user will give a crap just as long as it's "4k"... so 4k h265 at 10-20mbit; whatever that looks like, the enduser and service providers will be happy with as it'd be a noticeable jump in quality... especially if that costs half the price (e.g. players are $400 instead of $1500). Look at broadcast "3-5mbit 1080 HD" as an example; the image looks like crap compared to a 35mbit BluRay, but everyone is content and I doubt joe/jane six pack would pay more for his/her movies to be delivered to even BD quality.

Conversely, Netflix looks more than adequate on a 55" at roughly 6ft+ viewing distance... Still not Blu-Ray quality though.

Will Steer
04-02-2013, 04:58 PM
Have a theory on this. I believe it is because powerful hardware is required for the decoding of the footage. At the moment I believe only the actual redray player hardware will play pack Red's new format? Maybe PCs will be able to as well, but I but it'll require quite a bit of CPU grunt.

I'm only basing this on the chatter around H265 though, which seems to suggest that that codec will be twice as efficient bitrate-wise as H264, but will also need that much more processing power. Although I believe H264 only uses a single core for encode/decode anyway. :/

EDIT: ooops, missed the last page-and-a-bit, my post is a bit irrelevant...

Stacey Spears
04-02-2013, 05:56 PM
Current H.265 is limited to 10-bit 4:2:0. The standard for 10-bit 4:2:2 was completed about a week or so ago and we should see it by the end of the year. H.265, in tests, outperforms JPEG2000 wavelet. Not a single company submitted wavelet IP this time around. It was submitted, and then punted, from H.264 during its development. Current tests show H.265 about 30% more efficient than H.264 on some clips and 1.5-2x more complex at decoding. There are lots of optional tools around parallelism that really should have been mandatory. They were not because of concerns around cost to build the HW.

It will probably be a couple of years before we see really high quality H.265 encoders. The early encoders are really slow. Main Concept just released an alpha SDK with H.265 encode. They were never top dog in H.264, so I don't expect much from their H.265 implementation.

One could try HM, which is the reference encoder. Similar to JM for H.264.

Jake Wilganowski
04-02-2013, 07:31 PM
However, just to note, you can author a 1080p BluRay disc up to 4.7 gb, and burn that onto a DVDr and play back on a blu ray player (but not a dvd player)

Right?

Yep.

Eric Santiago
04-03-2013, 04:53 AM
However, just to note, you can author a 1080p BluRay disc up to 4.7 gb, and burn that onto a DVDr and play back on a blu ray player (but not a dvd player)

Right?


Quality is brutal.
Its out range of actual decent BD specs.

Mark Baluk
04-03-2013, 05:14 PM
Quality is brutal.
Its out range of actual decent BD specs.

How so? If I created the 4.7gb file in Encore and burn one to a BDR and one to a DVDR, why would their be difference in image?

Eric Santiago
04-03-2013, 05:23 PM
How so? If I created the 4.7gb file in Encore and burn one to a BDR and one to a DVDR, why would their be difference in image?


From my experience using Toast 11, using a DVD for BD files creates a low res type format (sorry no where near Toast to explain the format type and exact specs).

Great if your doing simple one-offs or test files for a client.

Edit: Google the Toast BD to DVD option and found that Toast wont do VC-1 or MPEG2 encoding. It will only do AVC.

Blair S. Paulsen
04-03-2013, 06:07 PM
Current H.265 is limited to 10-bit 4:2:0. The standard for 10-bit 4:2:2 was completed about a week or so ago and we should see it by the end of the year. H.265, in tests, outperforms JPEG2000 wavelet. (snip)
It will probably be a couple of years before we see really high quality H.265 encoders. (snip)

Thanks for the notes Stacey, hope to see you at NAB.

One of the key issues in developing/deploying a codec for UHD/4K is the widespread belief that physical media is a dead man walking, so the bit rate has to be viable for real world IP distribution. I've done a little consulting and the general consensus was that in the near term it's about scheduled downloading to a local server/drive with immediate streaming still a ways off. While I expect several of the bigger MSOs to offer a couple of UHD channels by the end of 2014, the economics of tying up more bandwidth per channel offering is anathema.

Cheers - #19

Mark Baluk
04-03-2013, 06:37 PM
From my experience using Toast 11, using a DVD for BD files creates a low res type format (sorry no where near Toast to explain the format type and exact specs).

Great if your doing simple one-offs or test files for a client.

Edit: Google the Toast BD to DVD option and found that Toast wont do VC-1 or MPEG2 encoding. It will only do AVC.

Ok, so that's not really what I was talking about then.