Post Your Apple/Final Cut Based Workflows Here

[Osler Go]

Thought it would be great if we could collect together everyone's Apple/Final Cut workflows for Red in one thread. If this was already done forgive me, but would be great to see what others are doing so we can compare notes.

Do you use RedTrip? When do you use Redcine? Do you rely on another program entirely for your workflow? Do you convert all the footage first? Do the proxies work for you?

I know there are a lot of variations, and of course projects can determine extra steps but would be interesting to see.

For simplicity something along the lines of

First This > Then This > Then This Program > Finished

And a brief explanation of how this workflow works best for you.


Oz
HDOLOGY

[Scott Simmons]

Make new proxies with RedAlert (the cam generated ones don't see the .R3D files right) > convert to an easy to edit format, maybe ProRes but maybe DV > Edit in FCP > XML through RedTrip > RedCine pull (it's not a conform) to DPX files > DPX conform in Quantel eQ > Color grading on DaVinci

At least that's the plan!

[Tv_Red]

Yeah i have been searching for a solid workflow on this forum for awhile just reading what everyone has to say and this is what i have gathered. Please let me know if i have this wrong or not, im still new to this!

I personally think the REDtrip is a great idea but when i tried a quick test it worked up until the point where i was trying to convert the Redcine.xml to a FCP.xml

I imported the "_H" files into my FCP system, it converted my sequence into ProRes HQ and i did my edit in that. I had a orange render bar and had to render it out everytime. Once i finished my quick edit i exported my XML into a seperate folder with my Redtrip Droplets and did the first step of Red Trip and it made a new XML for RedCine. I opened RedCine, opened all the shots that i used and opened the RedCine XML that i just made. Did my color set my output settings/path and made sure all the clips were set to "Width". I rendered out all the shots as ProRes HQ 1080, then saved my RedCine XML before i closed out. I then tried doing step two of the Redtrip, and it found the right path to the xml but i tried typing in my own path of the Renders because it wasnt finding the right folder and it kept saying "No path found" I literally tried this at least 10 times in different ways but no luck. i havent had time to test this again but i want this workflow to work.

I did not try what it suggested it the instructions, which was to export/compress your "_H" files to ProRes with the name that the camera gave it, i would assume the only real advantage to this is not dealing with rendering?


The second workflow that i am seeing is just converting all your footage to another format off the bat, such as a ProRes. The only thing i am having trouble with is an easy way to label all the footage and do a batch at the same time with out having the same name. (If not i might just have to relabel in finder)Also the fact that it would take a good deal of time to process all of this if you have a long format project. My next question would be if i did do it this way and still kept the original name with in the file name what would be the process to go back to a 4k out if need to be.

The production that i am on are really thinking about shooting on this camera on 4K for a 95 min Indie Feature. We were going to shoot on the HPX3000 but it doesnt really do what we want it to do and the HPX500 isn't really as comparable. I am new to this camera, i have done some test shoots with this but my main concern is my workflow since i am the one who is going to be cutting it and working with it for the next couple of weeks.

Would it be possible to help shed some light of this? It would be much appreciated!

What would be the best and the safest workflow to work with, also having the option to go back to the original 4K res for a possible film out?

Keeping it all organized, do i need the original file names? Im assuming yes.

Then what is the best format to cut it with out having my machine struggle? I was planing on ProRes.

I will also be on set downloading to my laptop then transfering it to my MacPro to Process all the files, so i can hopefully do some editing on set.

also im cutting on a Quad 2.66 with 4GB Ram and a G-Speed es Mirrored through Sata.

[tillHavis]

At the moment I'm holding out for Cineform, if they step up to the mark and produce with Neo 4K I think they will be on to a winner. That said they really need to have all their Software and conversion tools working natively on Mac. I think the key is the speed at which they bring these tools to the market place.
Tv Red you mentioned having to shoot on the HPX3000 this is where Cineform could shine. At the moment the transition to 4K is only starting. If we could work with existing formats such as DVCProHD and AVC Intra and HD as well as RED footage, and convert this footage to one Cineform DI WOW!

If Cineform gets this right they could be the leader in the 2K and 4K DI market. But they need to sort out the native transition to Mac and hit the existing 2k DI Market as soon as they can.

[cory660]

1) Do a rough edit in FCP
2) Export XML f/ FCP
3) Import XML into Crimson & generate a Redcine-ready XML file
4) Import new XML file into Redcine
5) Color grade in Redcine & export the files as Apple ProRes HQ at 4K
6) Drop the ProRes files into the FCP timeline & finish editing, color correcting, etc.

DONE.

[eskatonia]

my suggested workflow is documented here:

http://www.coremelt.com/support/workflow/

export DPX and use scratch if 10 bit YUV ain't good enough for you....

[Sam Roberts]

Also 4K to 1080P and SD DVD workflow would be appreciated.

[ThomtheEditor]

We've Only Done A Few Music Videos And Short Form Deliverables (i.e. Less Than 5 Min Finished Pieces) And Found That The Best Way Is:

1. Online Everything In Redcine @ 2k Prores Hq W/ First Light Correction
2. Cut In Fcp
3. Send Vfx To Ae And Back With 2k Prores W/ 4:4:4 Chroma Filtering
4. Send To Color And Back For Grading
5. Full Res 2k Prores Qt D.i. For Filmout

[Rob Gardner]

Now come on people, isn't there somebody out there doing long-form shows for delivery on television or cable (HD and SD)? Multiple hours, broadcast deadlines? I'd love to hear from you if you are.
Rob Gardner

[Ed Watkins]

1) Import Proxies into FCP
2) Edit offline in FCP.
3) Separate speed changed clips, 2K and 4K into separate time lines.
4) Conform the time lines using Crimson & REDCINE.

Then either:
5) Bring the roundtrip XMLs back to FCP
6) recombine time lines / speed changes
7) finish in color

or
5) import FCP XMLs from RECINE into AE using this free script:
http://www.creative-workflow-hacks.com/2007/04/15/final-cut-pro-to-after-effects-scripting-without-the-hassle/
6) Finish in high res in AE, or apply effects as needed.

[ThomtheEditor]

Now come on people, isn't there somebody out there doing long-form shows for delivery on television or cable (HD and SD)? Multiple hours, broadcast deadlines? I'd love to hear from you if you are.
Rob Gardner

We're about to start a series on RED next week. Right now our plan is to:
1. offline 720p dvcprohd thru redcine (our systems are hitting a nice 4:1 @ standard & normal (still need to test draft quality processing)
2. cut & roudtrip with crimson
3. online, first light, & output 2k or 1080 ProResHQ depending on network's requirements and our vfx needs (will probablly just be 1080)
4. color in color, vfx in ae & shake
5. put it all back together in fcp & deliver either D.I. or HDCam

the other workflow were toying with is exactly the same formats and process but switch out Redcine for ScratchCine + redboxx, and crimson for edl's to redboxx; although 35k for slighty faster benchmarks is not really worth it to me; especially on equipment that will be obsolete once color can read r3d files.
~T

[Rob Gardner]

Thanks, Thom. What are the specs on your computers? You have been able to render down to 720p at four to one (four minutes to one minute of original material)? That sounds very good. Have you taken a test project of any kind through this entire procedure yet (I am assuming so)?

We just finished a 13 hour series and took everything though to master air-tapes in house except for the audio mix. We have been producing multi-hours with Varicam and FCP for several years and I would like to consider the Red system as a possible replacement for the Varicam if we can get the work-flow tightened up to the point that we could do it under series delivery pressure. The Red is an experiment for us.

I am thinking that if you have enough hours in production, the cost of Scratch is not so heavy. If you have 13 hours in a series, for instance, a $35,000 scratch system is not quite $3,000 per show. And when you consider how time becomes desperate money when you are trying to make a deadline and problems emerge, a Scratch system might be the life-saver. Thanks again for your information.
Rob Gardner

[ThomtheEditor]

no problem. our setup consists of 3 MacPro intel quad cores 2.66, & 1 octo-core, 5-8 gigs ram/ system, fcp & quicktime always up to date, all with raid cards for 3-8tb space per system (plus internal raid in each of 1tb + startup disks) as well as all linked together on an xserve for shared material.

Everyone asks why we don't use the proxies, but when you need to show stuff real time, and show people what it will look like (not what it can look like), the least amount of imagination required from their end is the best. So offlining at low end hd is perfect. We're looking at a 7 hour series for this season, and really i can't justify in my mind a redboxx; so i'm not even going to try and justify it to my boss.

We're also using the red as an experiment to replace vipercam, long story short we have our work cut out for us, as we too are doing everything but sound mix in house. If we do go scratch our colorist knows that even better than color so we're set either avenue, if we go color i do that as well so we can tag-team the color work to meet deadlines!

Hope that helps!
~T

[Rob Gardner]

Thanks, Thom.
I really hope it works out for you. I think the proxies look pretty good, but there are issues with graphics and dissolves as I understand it. And if you can render down to 720p at 4 to 1, you shouldn't lose too much time. What are your settings on Redcine to get that speed? And do I understand you will on-line with Redcine unless you get a Scratch system?

I must say the production company has balls to go into a series with the system as new as it is. I think the Red system can be very good for this kind of project if the workflow shakes out for you. Is the Red you are using yours?
Rob Gardner

[ThomtheEditor]

Redcine settings (doesn't seem to matter if dvcpro or proreshq, since they have about the same data rate/compression ratio) just normal and draft (if doing something else on same system slips between 4 and 5 to 1).

The plan was to online w/ redcine/color combo although i think my whole workflow just went out the window as we just got slammed with a deadline already. Now we're doing everything at the online stage with our 8 core being a dedicated render station 24 hours a day to match scenes already shot on viper (1080 proreshq high/standard= 6-7:1) i don't agree but if that's how they need it done...

yes we're shooting with our red #939 ( check out redcinematographer.com (http://www.redcinematographer.com) ) and a friend of my boss's has a red as well to shoot 2 camera; plus varicam for 2nd-Unit.

this is getting more stressful by the minute!

[Rob Gardner]

Well, Thom, I'm sure it will give you great comfort to know that the stress is probably not going to go down...


I am very interested to finally read about somebody doing a series on the Red and I really hope it works out for you. I keep thinking that a Redboxx and Scratch may end up being the way to go, but I'm not ready to drop that kind of cash until I have a project big enough to pay for it. But we have had to do several re-makes of finished and delivered masters for one small content reason or another. We always try to hold onto the contingency line in the budget, but with the crazy shit that happens in television, it's getting harder and harder (we went through three different executive producers on the last series, each one with a different vision.
Thanks again
Rob

[Michael Schrengohst]

Those producers will be a PITA. Here is probably what you will hear everyday -
"Well with ________(fill in the blank) we did not have to render"
"What tapedeck will playback RED footage"
"How come the RED footage looks so flat"
"My son is a video editor, maybe he can help you?"

[ThomtheEditor]

lol it's true redguy.

Rob, the one thing that holds me back from buying the redboxx is that it is p.c. based = NO ProRes output (the representative told me that and i almost hung up on him)

since we're onlining everything there's no way in hell that we can do it all in 10-bit UC or even 8-bit for that matter, it's just not practical. ProRes is the way to go, looks like we're just going to buy a new 8-core, stuff it with ram and use it as a render station.

[Rob Gardner]

What you don't want to here is "Well we've changed executives on your series, but nothing should fundamentally change. Though, it is true that while you shot a series about oranges, your new executive Steve here has some really exciting ideas about apples which he has been talking to the marketing department about and we are all really excited about it. I know you have all the shows in fine cut, but I'm sure you can fix it in the writing..."

That is suicide time...

The PC deal with Scratch is an issue. I would really like to stay on the mac train as much as possible, but really worry about time.
Thanks again,

Rob

[ThomtheEditor]

someone upgraded everything to qt redcode 3.0 and now redcine won't work, i think my brain just melted, we start posting monday

[Vigen Vartanov]

Ok i have queation , is ProRes good codec for final color graiding ? I thing that better to use Uncompress 10 bit files , or DPX .

[Lucas Wilson]

Hey guys,

Have been reading your back and forth - good conversation. And somewhat unusual in this forum - sane, logical, and unemotional! : )

I wanted to add a few thoughts here:

There are a couple of *major* episodics that have decided to shoot on RED and have decided to use SCRATCH and/or SCRATCH-CINE for at least part of their post workflow. They have not made their decision to shoot RED public yet, so I need to respect that, but these are shows that are consistently in the top10 Neilsens.

Over the past several months, the studios and post facilities behind these shows have been grappling with the post workflows and going through the same angst that you are. At first, they thought they could do the FCP/Crimson/REDCINE route. And they can. But after doing several tests and parallel workflows with FCP/Crimson/REDCINE and FCP/SCRATCH, it was a no-brainer.

It all comes down to time. SCRATCH can instantly load hundreds of clips, sort them, conform them, and do realtime tape outputs. You guys know episodic timetables once production ramps up. There is no wiggle room. None. Plus - especially in LA - there are 24/7 support avenues, quick onsite response, and availability of replacement parts. That's usually crucial to episodic producers and the studios.

Once Color fully supports R3D files, this may be less of an issue for you. But it doesn't right now, and full support with the kind of reliable realtime that SCRATCH has is a long ways away - at least a season. You have a show starting on Monday. It's not a theoretical discussion anymore.

As far as onlining on ProRes... you tell me what's faster: L&T or connecting an SDI cable from SCRATCH-CINE to a Kona card? Output directly from SCRATCH into FCP. Output an EDL from SCRATCH, import to FCP, use that EDL to insert edits into the captured clip.

The workflows are not perfect. There are holes here and there, and every workflow has some issue somewhere. But overall, once tested, the SCRATCH route - especially for episodic - comes out on top in terms of time and reliability.

Thom - if you're in LA - feel free to call me over the weekend to discuss. I don't want to post my mobile number here for spamming reasons, but it's the number posted on the ASSIMILATE website at http://www (dot) assimilateinc (dot) com/contact1.html.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Rob Gardner]

You know, Lucas, I have twice sent emails to you guys trying to find out what the actual costs and facts are on Scratch. I never received a response. I sent one through this forum and one directly to the email address on your website.

We have a six hour PBS project under final consideration at the network now for full funding, and it could afford Scratch. But all I know is what I read on the forum and on your website.

The series we just finished (13 hours) was a serious lesson in project management and time-critical processes and we had to make some big changes mid-stream as things changed and our basic assumptions changed.

If Scratch is stable and dependable and does what it seems to be advertised to do, and if it can operate as part of an all-Mac, multi-station editing system, then it might be a life saver under series pressure. But if not, it could turn out to be a very expensive boat anchor as the waters close over our heads...

I am a producer, not an editor (I'm just the guy who pays for the stuff) and we have decided to experiment with the Red system as a possible alternative to the DVCproHD (Varicam and HDX900) system that has worked very well for us now for some years. It is also our business model to own as much of the hardware as we can, to avoid going out of house for post production services and this has worked out well for us. It means that more of the money sticks to our company, and that we can be more competitive overall as production budgets continue to wilt.

Almost all of our production takes place overseas, but our headquarters are in Baltimore. Is there a Scratch system working anywhere in the region (Washington DC, Pittsburg, etc?

I am feeling that there is a deep lack of clarity from Red, Assimilate and the forum members about what the best workflow is, and part of this is that the demands of 30 second or 60 second spots, independent features or short personal films are very different from the demands of a multi-hour series where a schedule collapse for technical reasons becomes a budget-breaking nightmare.

Our finishing machine is an 8 core Intel mac with a Kona 3, DVCproHD deck, HDcam deck, Digibeta deck, Harris legalizer, HD and SD monitors. and we have been able to deliver broadcast legal masters without a single technical rejection. So we have a system that works. But I think the Red system represents the potential of a great leap forward in production (visual) quality. I really hope things sort themselves out a little more prior to the delivery of our camera in August.
Thanks
Rob Gardner

[Lucas Wilson]

Hey Rob,

I just searched my email, and sure enough - there was a PM from you on Feb 23 that I never replied to. : (

I just emailed you... give me a call when you get a minute.

Cheers,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[roryhinds]

isn't Phenomenon Apple's replacement to Shake coming out this year...
It would be fantastic if it had full .r3d support and offered Mac users a finishing solution dedicated to Mac.

Think Shake/RedCine/Color with .r3d and Kona 3 support.

I do think it only a matter of time before Apple or a 3rd party bring out a serious solution for Mac users.

[Uli Plank]

Sure, but "Phenomenon" is nothing but a rumour. Apple has only shown Color working native with R3D at NAB without giving any release date.

So, if you need speed and a full cinema workflow now, it's Scratch.

If you have more time than money, you can work either FCP offline, use Crimson and grade elsewhere from DPXs or use L&T for ProRes and Color for grading.

ProRes HQ is not bad at all. If you do a first light while importing with RedAlert grades (I hope the next version of L&T will respect curves from RedAlert as well), you don't loose much in Prores – there's still room for final sweetening in Color.

Hope this helps,

Uli

[Omorede Ayinde]

Every Sequence i edited using L&T when i try to send to COLOR it crashes it seemed like it didnt like the 2kX1k Frame size has anyone else had this issue

[Omorede Ayinde]

We've Only Done A Few Music Videos And Short Form Deliverables (i.e. Less Than 5 Min Finished Pieces) And Found That The Best Way Is:

1. Online Everything In Redcine @ 2k Prores Hq W/ First Light Correction
2. Cut In Fcp
3. Send Vfx To Ae And Back With 2k Prores W/ 4:4:4 Chroma Filtering
4. Send To Color And Back For Grading
5. Full Res 2k Prores Qt D.i. For Filmout

When I try to send my Sequence to color it crashes I transfered all footage with FCP L&T has anyone else had this issue.

[Omorede Ayinde]

We've Only Done A Few Music Videos And Short Form Deliverables (i.e. Less Than 5 Min Finished Pieces) And Found That The Best Way Is:

1. Online Everything In Redcine @ 2k Prores Hq W/ First Light Correction
2. Cut In Fcp
3. Send Vfx To Ae And Back With 2k Prores W/ 4:4:4 Chroma Filtering
4. Send To Color And Back For Grading
5. Full Res 2k Prores Qt D.i. For Filmout

When I try to send my Sequence to color it crashes I transfered all footage with FCP L&T has anyone else had this issue.

[twotallmen]

Now come on people, isn't there somebody out there doing long-form shows for delivery on television or cable (HD and SD)? Multiple hours, broadcast deadlines? I'd love to hear from you if you are.
Rob Gardner

Import to Pro Res and stay there! Grade in Color lay pro res back to HDCam SR

[Rob Gardner]

What is your best import time to Pro Res and is this time a factor?
Thanks
Rob Gardner

[TheSHYRED]

I'm sitting here reading all these things about cutting on MacPro towers that are running a lot of fire power. I'm about to shoot on the RED for a music video for the first time and the director/editor is really hesitant about shooting on the RED because of workflow issues. Is it even possible to cut on the MacBook Pro and actually have a finished product on it?

Sorry for being ignorant about this, I'm just trying to understand this whole workflow thing and to see if it is really going to be a pain for the director.

If it is possible and someone has cut on their MacBook pro, could you tell me what you did?

Thanks,
Sing

[Greg M]

If it is possible and someone has cut on their MacBook pro, could you tell me what you did?

Thanks,
Sing

I simply drop the "M" QT Proxies into Final Cut and start editing...it really that simple.

[Nick Gallegos]

Yeah, the "M" proxies work great on a MacBook Pro. You'll just have to deal with slower export times when you ready to online your footage after cutting and color correcting.

Seeing that you are shooting a music video, you can also do a one-light in Redcine first and then export 2K ProRes QT files to do an online edit in FCP at full frame rate. On larger productions (like feature films and documentaries), it makes a lot more sense to do an offline edit first using the QT proxies and use the Crimson workflow.

[Uli Plank]

You can do data wrangling and offline editing on the MacBook Pro without a problem. But for finishing I'd suggest a MacPro, or you'll be looking at loooong rendering times.

[Luca Immesi]

For commercials, music videos, short films under 5 minutes macbook pro is really a good solution. Red 4k-Fcp-Crimson-Redcine-1080p DPX-Color.
On my macbook pro the rendering is almost 40/45 minutes for 1 minutes of online, so 5 minutes project is about 4 hours of rendering, not to bad.