Red Accessories - Sexy vs. Crappy

[Mark Pedersen]

So here's an example of what is displayed on the Red store vs. what is shipping to Red users.

Red Store: Sexy...high quality. Looks like a professional piece of cine gear...and what I am looking forward to receiving from Red. Vs... well, crappy and cheap looking.

I expect better finished components for the money. This is a $750 part. If mine comes in looking like this, I'll return it.

Hate to say it, but If ET and other accessory companies can deliver high quality components at reasonable price points, why can't Red?

I hope Red will respond to user feedback and quickly correct this.

3628 3629

[Jay A. Kelley]

I need to take a closer look at mine.. I don't think it looks like this. When did the part you photographed ship?

Jay

[Vincent S]

I gotta say that looks bad and nothing like the store photo. All these posts about accessories not fitting right or the change in finish has me a little surprised and concerned since my cam is due soon.

[Curran Giddens]

I'm sure Jim is just trying to get some ROI. I imagine R&D on the Mysterium sensor cost him some $$,$$$,$$$....

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

The one I got looks like the one on RED store (very nice), and nothing like what you posted Mark, looks to me like you got a unit that for some reason has skipped a part of the finishing process? you should contact your sales rep.

[Evin Grant]

Yes, all my accs. are the shiny/glossy black finish like in the store photo Except the bottom rod adapter which I'm not using because I need the 15mm base.

[Joel Kaye]

The one I got looks like the one on RED store (very nice), and nothing like what you posted Mark, looks to me like you got a unit that for some reason has skipped a part of the finishing process? you should contact your sales rep.

No - my accessories are all that way. Half of them don't work right either. All the new production packs are this way now.

[Curran Giddens]

Yes, all my accs. are the shiny/glossy black finish like in the store photo.

The only accs. that I got which are shiny/glossy black finish, are the Universal Mounts. Everything else is flat/grey finish. At least I don't have any other quality issues.

The only problem I have with the flat/grey finish is that it scratches easier than the machined parts.

[Curran Giddens]

Actually, I do have one other QC issue. The steel rods that I got are from different batches. Today I weighed all my accs. to the tenth or hundredth of a gram. I noticed a discrepancy between rods of the same length.

433.41 Red 18" Steel Rod
481.34 Red 18" Steel Rod
290.13 Red 12" Steel Rod
290.98 Red 12" Steel Rod

I plan on getting the ET rods as replacement anyway, so this isn't a big deal.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I am #327 and mine are shiy black finish. So I don't know what's going on.
I am happy since my stuff looks like it did in the store.... As it should.

Jay

[John V]

Some are cast some are machined...if it were me I would send out all the same or none at all.

[Brent J. Craig]

Actually, I do have one other QC issue. The steel rods that I got are from different batches. Today I weighed all my accs. to the tenth or hundredth of a gram. I noticed a discrepancy between rods of the same length.

The other comments in this thread seem valid, but you're joking right?!?

Does it really matter that different pieces have different weights?

How could you even consider using those 6" rods together when the left one is off balance by almost the weight of a dime? Wow.

[Curran Giddens]

ok. forget about the 6" rods (I just did a copy/paste from my list). I just found it a bit odd that the 18" rods are off by almost 48 grams....

[Jon Schellenger]

This has me concerned as well. I have a feeling that they are skipping the final finish. That is really not cool since this stuff is so expensive. I just want to know that what I just ordered will look exactly like it does from the RED store.

Jim/RED Crew: Please let us know what is going on with this. This has a lot of us concerned.

[Pig]

The reason for the different appearance has already been stated in this thread.
To clarify:

- the shiny ones are anodized, machined aluminium
- the ones with flat grey appearance are cast

Different manufacturing process yields a differet look.

RED needs to update their website more frequently in order to show online what is actually shipping to avoid this kind of unnesessary confusion.

RED faux pas #24760

[Shawn Booth]

Uh... I just finished wiring ALL funds for everything...
I don't want crappy - I want sexy... WTF?
hmmm...

But I suppose it all comes down to the quality of the parts versus looks, function over form. We'll see what RED says come Monday.

[Ed Watkins]

All my accessories are dull black finish.
Not as sexy, but totally functional. I feel a little shortchanged because of the photos, but at least I got a connector with my RED DRIVES.

I ended up sending back one baseplate and dove tail, the dovetail release was totally unlubed, and the base plate seemed a bit warped and didn't fit correctly.

I think the parts need a bit closer quality control before they go out.

[Joel Kaye]

Uh... I just finished wiring ALL funds for everything...
I don't want crappy - I want sexy... WTF?
hmmm...

But I suppose it all comes down to the quality of the parts versus looks, function over form. We'll see what RED says come Monday.

I'm going to hire some hippie-chick to paint my RED production pack. When she's done with that maybe she can work on camera production pack too.

[SF Geek]

All the parts are cast now. All of the earlier ones were machined. The cast ones are much cheaper and not as good. You can no longer get machined parts. I guess that was a bonus for the early adopters. I thought that was common knowledge. You can send them back, but there are no exchanges for machined parts. I already tried.

[Matthew Rogers]

I think two of the issues here (at least for me) is that the cast parts seem to not work as well (handles slipping, parts not fitting quite right) and the dull finish scratches easily (that's what has been reported.) To me, that's a fairly big issue. First, I don't want parts slipping off and my camera falling off someone's shoulder/tripod/jib/dolly. That's a huge concern. Second, what are the cast parts made out of? Should I be worried about scratched parts rusting? Jim, I really feel like you need to address this issue...

Matthew

[John V]

The cast parts have a large inital outlay of cash...in the order of $50,000 to $150,000 for the tooling per part. Not to mention the actual cost of the parts. Not "cheap" by any means.

[Pig]

Two things:
1) Your estimation of initial cost seems a tad high, given the size and complexity of the parts, but regardless of that,
2) why do you think RED chose to cast the parts and not machine them...that's right: cost reduction.
Of course they might come back and say they can produce more in a shorter time using casting,as opposed to machining.

As with all manufacturing, ways to reduce self-cost will always be sought. Unfortunately for RED, they chose to start shipping items that not only look different than what's "advertised" on the web, but also have [apparently] tolerance issues.

[Mark Pedersen]

I need to take a closer look at mine.. I don't think it looks like this. When did the part you photographed ship?

Jay

Jay,

The photo I attached is from Mike Curtis' post in HD for indies, that was referenced in a thread about the drive cable.

Look here http://provideocoalition.com/index.p...ing_part_1/P4/

I just thought it was a good example of what's been shipping lately. His Red is #417.

The original production run of accessories were machined aluminum and then anodized. Later parts are cast. As they run out of machined parts, they supply cast parts. Unfortunately, the cast parts have a very different anodized finish than the machined parts. I don't know why this would be the case, unless they used different suppliers, or the process is different. But in any case, the finish on the cast parts is inferior to the machined ones.

I don't have an issue with cast parts per se, as long as they are anodized properly and fit and function to spec.

But it sounds like there are QC issues with the casting process (fit issues) and the anodization process leaves a lot to be desired in terms of appearance and durability.

I would like the option of being able to order machined parts that match what is posted on the site, and what earlier reservation owners received, vs. what is being delivered currently. I'd say I'm willing to pay extra for that, but then I stop and go... wait a minute... why SHOULD we have have to pay extra when others got the nicer accessories for the same price? Plus, these accessories aren't cheap (granted the production pack is a bargain in terms of the package price vs. individual items) but if you end up tossing the base because it's not Arri compatible, wobbles and breaks, the handles don't grip, the side handles pop off, and you want lighter rods (ET), the only accessories that start to look desirable are the top handle and extension, and the cradle. But when the cradle looks like this, I start looking for alternatives.

Bummer. I wanted to get the production pack, left handle, quick plate, side handles etc... but with the current finish and QC issues, I think I'll pass.

I hate to feel like I'm bitching, 'cause I love the camera and what Red is doing. I just want a top notch kit and these parts aren't cutting it.


M

[Brigham Edgar]

C'mon RED...fess up!

I will be quite ticked off if i get all my accessories and they are as bad as people are making out. I just paid for my camera this week including thousands of dollars on accessories and have been waiting for over a year like most and can't believe this could be true. Not machined, not the same as pics in store, not fitting, no quality inspection before being sent out. If this is true well a thumbs down to RED. They may have a great Camera and be delivering great things with imagery but if this is the case with many $$$$ of accessories well....I'm a believer in quality and would happily wait out or buy elsewhere for accessories when they are available. The RED is such an awesome piece of technology and accomplishment, why put it in bed with poor fitting equipment!

But heh, i'll report back when we get ours! No point in slamming a nail in if it's not the case! The camera rocks...and this is the main thing! The service to date and information and communication from our man at RED has been great, even letting us know what is not available yet for our order and that the only imperial lenses are ready not metric, so, I have no evidence that anything is adfrift so i'll keep backing them with everything until or if i get scorched. C'mon RED!

[Steve Freebairn]

C'mon RED...fess up!

I will be quite ticked off if i get all my accessories and they are as bad as people are making out. I just paid for my camera this week including thousands of dollars on accessories and have been waiting for over a year like most and can't believe this could be true. Not machined, not the same as pics in store, not fitting, no quality inspection before being sent out. If this is true well a thumbs down to RED. They may have a great Camera and be delivering great things with imagery but if this is the case with many $$$$ of accessories well....I'm a believer in quality and would happily wait out or buy elsewhere for accessories when they are available. The RED is such an awesome piece of technology and accomplishment, why put it in bed with poor fitting equipment!

But heh, i'll report back when we get ours! No point in slamming a nail in if it's not the case! The camera rocks...and this is the main thing! The service to date and information and communication from our man at RED has been great, even letting us know what is not available yet for our order and that the only imperial lenses are ready not metric, so, I have no evidence that anything is adfrift so i'll keep backing them with everything until or if i get scorched. C'mon RED!

Red is offering accessories at an affordable price. You can also find other companies that are working with Red like Element Technica which make high quality parts. If you want machined parts, you could always have someone machine them for you.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love all my parts to come machined, but I see the base production pack as a hold over until things can be further developed for the Red, by Red and other companies. I'd much rather Red focus on the camera and sensor and workflow over the accessories.

[Brook Willard]

Most film accessories are made in very low quantities. They are also made with absolutely no regard to cost. If there is a better way to make them, they'll be made in the better way. Period. When there are only a few dozen [or, in some cases, a few hundred] camera bodies to put your accessories on, you do what you need to do. Even if they wanted to cast accessories, it just wouldn't make sense.

RED will likely ship at least 5,000 basic production packs this year. They're trying to get them out fast, they're trying to get them made inexpensively and they're trying to make a profit in the process. I'm sure they were selling the machined accessories at nearly cost [or at a loss] in tooling costs. Machining parts gets expensive, and selling those parts for prices as low as RED has been just wasn't going to continue.

I always thought it was a given that they'd be cast eventually. They aren't trying to screw people and they aren't trying to make a quick buck. Their customer service has been top-notch for me.

Anyway, my point is... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.

If RED's accessories aren't up to snuff for you... don't buy RED's accessories. It's a simple solution.

Now there obviously are problems; hell, RED has admitted to problems with batches of accessories. Their quality control seems nonexistent at times. But I bet you they make it right in the end.

[Pig]

All fair comments, Brook.

Although:

... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.

Actually that's EXACTLY what they're doing (until Monday when they'll update the website, I'm sure) if they show one thing online, and ship another; i.e. the picture online at the RED store CLEARLY shows MACHINED parts, and then when one receives the parts, they are cast (and by your own definition, LESS VALUABLE). :huh:

[Warren Kommers]

It's also the consistency. My camera is a hodge podge of both. Ever part that comes in a pair is cast then machined. Any pro in the LA area has been saying,"why don't your handles match?" Well.......

I know that RED has done the impossible and the camera is awesome so you can't win everything the first time around. Like Brook said I'm sure they will do right in the end.

Build 15, a nikon mount, and/or my EVF sure would qualm our bitching though. :)

[Laco Zamba]

What will be next? Wooden body? :-)

[Alexis Vanier]

Actually wooden body would be nice... then your red could most likely float... unless you shoot the Optimo. :blink:

[Brigham Edgar]

Anyway, my point is... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.



I think you are wrong on this one Brook, it is wrong for any company to sell items stating they are one thing but end up being another. It was totally up to RED on what they priced their items at as well as their build. If they have found they cannot produce these items at their cost and delivery schedule it is THEIR responsibility to either change their specs on their website and/or inform ALL future and current customers that things have changed. I think you are mistaken with all their products being low cost, the vast majority yes but not all. RED has been very forthcoming with changes to RED ONE but have not in their accessories area. Even not mentioning the significant problems they are apparently having with ill-fitting or poorly designed accessories they should have and currently inform people of this. Do not get me wrong though, i still want everything i ordered as i need them all, i just seriously hope the components do what they are supposed to, even if they look like crap and make the whole rig look...well...i havn't got mine yet. And i support RED with all they are doing no question, but as they have stated time after time they want and need feedback. And in this case it is a big quality and customer issue. The difference between cast and machined is big. An email or online update is the only way any business should operate...no question. As i said C'mon RED! These things are pretty basic to do and takes only minutes! You guys rock with what you are doing and are extremely forthcoming so why would this be different.

By the way, if i'm wrong and RED have indeed stated this officially or emailed customers or similar, please point this out to me and inform me of when and where and i'll eat my words and go about my day.

[PaulClements]

We have both versions of most items. One of the problems with the matte finish of the cast items is that you have to tighten them to fit them in place and loosen them to alter their position. The glossier machined version by comparison can be tightened to a degree that they can still be repositioned and remain tight. If they had quick release on them it wouldn't matter quite so much but having to mess about with different sized allen keys on set is a real pain.

Paul

[Brigham Edgar]

Red is offering accessories at an affordable price. You can also find other companies that are working with Red like Element Technica which make high quality parts. If you want machined parts, you could always have someone machine them for you.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love all my parts to come machined, but I see the base production pack as a hold over until things can be further developed for the Red, by Red and other companies. I'd much rather Red focus on the camera and sensor and workflow over the accessories.

I would like machined parts too, and that is what i ordered and paid for. That is THE point.

I would like to focus their efforts on the camera/workflow also, but there is a difference between no or little information and mis-information.

Again, if i am wrong and this has been stated somewhere please let me know so i can go off quietly after an apology to RED. And don't forget, i havn't got my camera or anything yet (hopefully only days now) and i am only going off information posted by others...as most of us are!

[David Litchfield]

I share the same concerns as everyone else. I’ve never done any kind of engineering so don’t really know the processes, but is there any reason why the cast parts can’t be anodized in the same way. Is it just about cost? Do economies of scale not come into it when you’re making 1000’s of them?

For me it’s not about having sexy looking accessories, but the finish does reflect on build quality. If I’m brutally honest the picture Mark posted looks like a 20 year old component that’s had the rust removed. I hope it’s just a very unflattering photo, I really do.

I have a $600 Redrock follow focus sat in front of me, which has an excellent quality finish. So I can’t believe it purely comes down to cost. If it does, change the prices not the build quality. Everyone knows things are subject to change.

David Litchfield

[Mark Pugh]

If they had quick release on them it wouldn't matter quite so much but having to mess about with different sized allen keys on set is a real pain.

Paul

Hang on - try moving a magazine from top to bottom or battery mount on any other camera - you'd need a lot more than just a couple of allan keys.

[PaulClements]

Hang on - try moving a magazine from top to bottom or battery mount on any other camera - you'd need a lot more than just a couple of allan keys.

Thats all well and good and I agree, but when we have two red cameras on the same shoot and to alter one's setup is easier than the other it's just a bit annoying.

Paul

[Charles Perkins]

In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product


This practice is illegal in many states under their CONSUMER PROTECTION (http://www.enotes.com/wests-law-encyclopedia/consumer-protection) laws

thats what i think about the whole situation. just update the store, send an email or something.

[Shawn Booth]

If RED's accessories aren't up to snuff for you... don't buy RED's accessories. It's a simple solution.



NO. BS.

When RED switched to cast parts, RED should've changed the website pics to match. Period. Jim is not poor. RED is not poor. F that mentality.

Show what you sell and deliver what you sell. Don't give me, us, that line of BS that if you don't like, don't buy. They advertise certain parts, deliver certain parts.

I guarantee Jim is out shooting with the exact parts pictured on the store's website, if not something none of us have ever seen. If they're not shipping those same parts out - they should, and can, update their site.

This is, IMO, the BIGGEST issue/problem RED has thrown on its customers to date.

Should I receive inferior parts, I will return, and return until I receive what is advertised.

Please don't misunderstand me - I love RED and everything they stand for. Their customer service is unbelievable in this day and age of farming out to other countries - But, I firmly believe that website neglect (staying up to date) is inexcusable. If you're gonna show certain items "for sale" - then deliver those items as shown. If you can't, update.

[Lauri Kettunen]

This discussion creates quite a confusion. Jim has always emphasized good business practices relying on confidence. Recently this was even highlighted when there was the hazzle of the piece of software transforming r3d-files to avi-files.

From the customers point of view the images on the web store are Red's promise to the customers. The only possible interpretation is, what you see is what you'll get. It's alarming if Red has silently changed this interpretation. Especially, this put Jim's words of trust in strange position.

So, I agree with many others. Red should be fair to its customers with the accessories.

[Casey Green]

I agree, the parts should not have been changed without notifying the customers. This is so NOT RED. It just does not feel right.

I would suggest that RED offer a refund or exchange policy for those who are not satisfied with the accessories that are not as advertised on the site or do not function up to par, such as the baseplate/dovetail.

RED has it's hands full with all of the development of new products for this year's NAB, and I am cheering them on 100%, but I also feel this is important enough to speak up about and hopefully RED will offer an alternative in the near future and make this right.

[Brent J. Craig]

How would you feel if you ordered a new car online and when it arrived you discovered that they only use the 'nice shiny paint' for the online photos and the first few hundred cars shipped?

In any case there are other options for Red accessories and they are looking better and better. Discussions like this are helping me decide which way to go for the gear I am specifying.

Could someone explain why the manufacturing process (casting vs. machining) limits how an item can be coated/anodized?

I certainly want Red to make money but in an industry where image is so important it is surprising to see them cutting corners in this way.

I know Red usually stays away from negative threads like this but I would appreciate hearing their explanations.

[George A.]

I agree with everyone. This is unacceptable.

WHAT DOES RED HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT? WHY THE TOTAL SILENCE?

I remember Jim saying he will not sleep until every customer is 100% happy. I remember Jim saying every customer will be treated as if he/she is the only one. Or as if he/she is Jim himself. Until he's not happy, Jim will not get any sleep. He will fix it.

P.S. "If RED's accessories aren't up to snuff for you... don't buy RED's accessories. It's a simple solution."

Like others, I agree this is not the right attitude.

[Joel Kaye]

I remember Jim saying he will not sleep until every customer is 100% happy.

His accountant has been slipping him sleeping pills.

[Nick Gardner]

The cast parts have a large inital outlay of cash...in the order of $50,000 to $150,000 for the tooling per part. Not to mention the actual cost of the parts. Not "cheap" by any means.

Not true. Allied Casting, down the street from my house wouldn't cost anywhere near as much and the stuff would work right and look good, AND they would not be made in Singapore.

Arri manages to cast tons of parts and they all look good, and work well.

If they spent close to $200k on tooling, why didn't they just buy a couple of Haas CNC machines and machine the things in the states?

Steadicam manages to make precision parts, so do hundreds of other companies. There is no excuse for this. If the parts suck, get new vendors, there is no shortage of companies to do this work. Why not throw some money Element Technica's way and help them expand to meet demand?

Nick

[planet e]

I know Red usually stays away from negative threads like this but I would appreciate hearing their explanations.

that's actually not true--

strong bitching about metric lenses coughed up metric lenses

more bitching about focal plane marks and now there are focal plane marks

bitched about lack of multi monitoring and it's soon forthcoming in build 15

still bitching about the audio issues but no less than stuart english has affirmed that they are working on it--

et cetera...

i would just keep bitching, especially since my 1st camera is likely to ship on Monday, supposedly, and i stand to be on the receiving end of this batch of parts...i will be very interested. RED will respond to this, too. i feel confident.

that said, i postponed shipping of the 2nd camera until after NAB, and RED was very courteous about the postponement--and my primary reason was wanting to see, touch, and feel accessories from RED and from 3rd-party manufacturers at NAB, to be sure that i order the right stuff, the first time. and don't over-order on stuff that i won't use.

RED is keeping a remarkable number of balls in the air...i agree that they should consider getting out of the accessories business, partner with some of the best 3rd party manufacturers regarding the accessories, and keep their eyes on image quality and workflow issues. and cheap, high quality lenses!

now that RED has real traction and is shipping larger numbers of cameras fairly consistently, the 3rd party manufacturers are going to accelerate their offerings quickly--which is why i'm going to run a bare-bones RED until after NAB.

then it will be time to drop another wad o' cash!

[Vincent S]

I love all of Jim's post in RECON about every new feature. But why didn't they announce that all new parts will be cast and have a matte finish and not look like the store photos?

Is this not kinda a new feature, just a none desired one?

Crazy thing is now I find myself looking like crazy for other options via ET, Zacuto or SIM days away from finalizing my order.

Please RED speak up.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I don't think anyone at RED could defend that basic LACK OF DETAILED INFORMATION on accessories on the www.Red.com website.

I think they have delivered enough cameras to add the resources to make that happen asap - and I think it will be a shame if they don't do it before NAB.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Ok… time to vote then.

(can you imagine the kind of results to such a vote :))
Emmanuel

[John Hunt]

Could someone explain why the manufacturing process (casting vs. machining) limits how an item can be coated/anodized?



The finish I see in the pics looks like a 'black oxide' finish I have used on critical race car suspension parts. It will scratch, but also allows any developing cracks to be easily identified since the surface of the metal is not coated with paint or plating.

One affordable option for RED for these cast parts would be powder coating of the most visible areas.

And while I wholeheartedly support RED and their efforts, it's not okay to deliver differently finished parts from those pictured on the website. I hope they find time to update photos or offer better alternatives.

In the meantime, I will head over to Element Technica for my accessories - that's the beauty of a free market.

John

[Shawn Nelson]

I saw some of the new dull grey accessories and they aren't as sexy, but the bigger problem is the tolerances issues. The prices are too much for that. Heck, any price is too much for parts out of whack. That's why Cavision got shot down here, when they could have been a low cost contender.

Anyhow, Red had to ramp up production somehow eh? Well I guess it's only their problem in that they didn't make sure their subcontractor delivered the goods as spec'd.

[Gian Joon]

What will be next? Wooden body? :-)

:umm:

[Pig]

Well I guess it's only their problem in that they didn't make sure their subcontractor delivered the goods as spec'd.

Actually THAT part happens ALL THE TIME with manufacturing; what shouldn't of happened is that RED passed those inferior parts on to the customers!!!

I guess they had a bitching analysis done at RED headquarters:

What will the REDuser.net bitch-o-meter register if:

1) We delay delivery and go back to the subcontractor and have them REDO the parts (at their cost).

2) We just ship the crap we have now as it is.

I guess the analysis revealed a SPIKE beyond measurement in bitching with option 1.
:sarcasm:

[Lauri Kettunen]

but the bigger problem is the tolerances issues.

Yes, from my point of view this is also the issue. The accessories should work in warm and cold, and if the tolerances are only somewhat there in room temperature, that's easily a source of problems. For my needs the appereance is not an issue as long as brids and other animals do not care.

Another point is, that it is bit surprising to learn accesories are changed to different type silently. The marketing strategy of RED has very much been to create confidence by being open.

I already found it surprising RED did not support Birger better, as at the time RED announced clearly there will be a Canon EF-mount for RED. The way I read this was, RED recognizes this is an important adapter for many potential customers and thus RED wants to also have it. It seems without Aquavideo's generous help Birger's project would have postponed far more and had far more difficulties. I've thought and still think, the lack of support to Birger is just a single incidence and nobody at RED has simply had time to pay attention to it in the burden of other pressing things.

But what should we think of selling accessories that are not the same as what one is let to understand? Probably another detail nobody has had time to pay enough attention. Or is it partly the low value of dollar?

[Jason Ing]

i think i'll wait and see how red responds.

[Shawn Nelson]

Actually THAT part happens ALL THE TIME with manufacturing; what shouldn't of happened is that RED passed those inferior parts on to the customers!!!

I guess they had a bitching analysis done at RED headquarters:

What will the REDuser.net bitch-o-meter register if:

1) We delay delivery and go back to the subcontractor and have them REDO the parts (at their cost).

2) We just ship the crap we have now as it is.

I guess the analysis revealed a SPIKE beyond measurement in bitching with option 1.
:sarcasm:

Yeah, Red should have held ground and delayed, gone back to the manufacturers and let them know that accessories like this won't be tolerated.

[Luis Otero]

You know, due to all the excitement that the arrival of my Red One # 711 created on me, I need to admit that I did not make a deal out of my disappointment when I saw the difference in looks of my parts vs. the Red.com photos. I need to admit that I cannot believe that me, as critical and demanding customer that I am, deceived myself and did not react before.

After reading this thread, and understanding Jim's commitment toward having ALL clients 100% satisfied, I will ask for a replacement of any single component that does not look like the advertised parts.

I am 100% sure that Jim will react doing the right thing: that is and has always been his promise. There are not good and bad Oakley's sunglases finishes. They are always GREAt ones.

Luis

[Jon Schellenger]

RED- Please tell us what is going on????

[Pig]

RED- Please tell us what is going on????

LOL, in typical RED-fashion, they throw us a bone, instead of addressing the issue:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9920

This happens everytime someting goes wrong, and the mood gets sombre. Ever notice this?
There's some BIG complaint....then there's immediately a bone. Same thing when Scarlet was announced. That timing was very deliberate.

RED, we're on to you! :tongue:

[Shawn Booth]

I think RED should compensate with free T-Shirts. And stickers. Stickers should come with the body period, like in Apple fashion.

I can't wait 'til tomorrow, when hopefully someone from RED will address our concerns satisfactorily.

FREE SHIRTS AND STICKERS TO ALL CAMERA OWNERS!!!!

[Jason Ing]

yeah, that 2k 120fps post did distract me too. lol. easy to "forgive" when they're putting out a camera like this. so what, accessories, schmessories.

[Jarred Land]

im not happy with the last couple posts here...

[Shawn Nelson]

LOL, in typical RED-fashion, they throw us a bone, instead of addressing the issue:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9920

This happens everytime someting goes wrong, and the mood gets sombre. Ever notice this?
There's some BIG complaint....then there's immediately a bone. Same thing when Scarlet was announced. That timing was very deliberate.

RED, we're on to you! :tongue:

Oh give me a freakin break. You'd have to believe they are inherently being dishonest and/or evil to do something like that, and these guys are anything but that. They've made some honest mistakes on the accessories, if anything just to get you cameras faster. Let's give them time to right things and not try to knock their character. These guys don't deserve such treatment.

[Luis Otero]

im not happy with the last couple posts here...

Let's be more sensitive with the wording. I am sure that if this issue is funneled through the right channel, and using the right methods, Red will do the right thing. They always have done it that way...

I will not link the great posting from Jarred re: Build 15 to this situation. He and Red know better that that.:turned:

Luis

[Jarred Land]

thanks Shawn.. That post made me so pissed off i think its best that I dont post for awhile.

Accusations like that really are an uncalled slap in the face to everyone that works at Red that are busy working double overtime and weekends to help solve customer issues, specially after i addressed this in a separate thread already.

[Anthony Gratl]

Hi Jarred. Where do I find that thread please?
BTW, nothing to get pissed off about. People just have heightened expectations, in part from the open relationship nature of the board itself, and when instant answers aren't forthcoming, some people find it suspicious. When that much trust has been placed, there's sometimes a little recoil when things go awry. And for many on the board, they're putting their life savings along with that trust....

EDIT: It's all good. At least you live in California. We've got lots of snow.

[John V]

There are growing pains in all companies. We learn from mistakes and we fix them. Thats what we do.

[Luis Otero]

...some people find it suspicious.

Understood, but posting is not just a matter of "typing and submiting". There must be some foundation to be "suspicious" of something, And I do not know of anything done by the Red Team to give the forum's members the right to "think and post" such type of accusations, specially after the hard work and dedication they have shown the entire world.

My two cents...

Luis

PS
This is the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9920

[Ariana]

People may be feeling they have the right or obligation to bitch and moan about the one topic until RED is forced to do something because they have responded in the past. Any other company would hardly be paying as close attention as RED has or responding at all. We are extremely lucky that RED is so responsive and has given us an insane amount of value for the price.

Do we really want to bitch and moan until RED is tired of responding to a bunch of whiny users?

[Jason Ing]

... specially after i addressed this in a separate thread already.

What thread did you address this accessory issue? I'd like to read it. Anyone know?

[Jason Ing]

by the way, i sincerely apologize for the post i made earlier. i changed it to something more fair. i think i should find out what red's official response is before i post. jarred is right. again, very sorry.

[Jon Schellenger]

I don't see it as RED is trying to screw anyone over. I agree with Shawn and Jarred. RED really has been working with us all to try and create an amazing camera.

I just want to know what their official word on this is. Are some parts being sent out really not matching? (IE: some casted and some machined, grip handles, basic production pack) If they are casted, can they be painted and polished up before sending out?

I just ordered all my gear from Randy, and so far all my involvement with RED has been fantastic. Will my accessories really look like the picture posted here? Or will it be what I thought I was buying from the store.

So far everything I have read about and I have seen, RED has been really good about "making things right." I have no doubt that they will do the same here. Lets give them a break. I think the best thing is to let them reply to this thread and give us the real information.

[Brigham Edgar]

thanks Shawn.. That post made me so pissed off i think its best that I dont post for awhile.

Accusations like that really are an uncalled slap in the face to everyone that works at Red that are busy working double overtime and weekends to help solve customer issues, specially after i addressed this in a separate thread already.

I agree with you Jarred, that comment was a bit over the top. But may i ask if you have been reading the forum why not post something to quell the mounting fustrations? You had time to write this comment back but nothing along the lines of 'we will answer you officially shortly'.

You know that 99.999999% of us are in full support to RED so chill out a sec, grab a beer and take a load off. It's a serious issue that needs some answers from RED and by ignoring is just fueling the fire. :whistling:

[Anthony Gratl]

Understood, but posting is not just a matter of "typing and submiting". There must be some foundation to be "suspicious" of something, And I do not know of anything done by the Red Team to give the forum's members the right to "think and post" such type of accusations, specially after the hard work and dedication they have shown the entire world.

My two cents...

Luis

PS
This is the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9920

I guess people are just upset that nothing was being said at all. I'm just an onlooker on this thread, as my camera hasn't been delivered.


EDIT: The link you posted is for the 2k 120fps shot. I was asking for a link to the thread where the accessories issue had been addressed by Jarred.

[Ken K]

What thread did you address this accessory issue? I'd like to read it. Anyone know?
Jarred addressed it a couple times in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9838

And Brent addressed it a couple times in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9850

[Gabriel Beaudry]

The Red Team has always answered questions on this forum. I'm sure they will answer this one too, but I think everybody should take a step back and think. I agree the question is a very good one especially for those like me who should receive their Red soon, but the thread was started yesterday, a SATURDAY. Lets just give the team some time to take a good decision so "everybody" is happy.

[Jarred Land]

But may i ask if you have been reading the forum why not post something to quell the mounting fustrations? It's a serious issue that needs some answers from RED and by ignoring is just fueling the fire. :whistling:

um.. this thread started YESTERDAY at 3:30pm ( on a Saturday mind you )

how is responding in 24 hours .. on a Sunday.. ignoring the issue?

Jeeze.

[Gabriel Beaudry]

LOL almost the same post

[Kevin Wild]

Personally, and many of you anonymous ones will disagree with me, I think that reduser.net should use real names like DVInfo.net. I find that people are MUCH more liable to take some cheap attack or word something way over-the-top, if they can hide behind a silly name without any possible reprecussions.

That said, I have a RED on the way in May/June and these issues are very serious to me. I am very happy now that I don't have to choose accessories before NAB. I would have loved to get everything from RED, but am now taking a serious look at SIM and ET.

But that said, some of these posts are pretty offensive to the people working so hard. RED has said in past posts "keep on us," but that doesn't mean in a rude and attacking manner.

KW

[Jason Ing]

thanks chazmo.

but i meant something addressing the finish of the accessories: matte vs. polished; cast vs. machined.

i think this is what this thread is about as opposed to the tightening of a nut or a loose plate, etc.

Will Red produce the new "matte" accessories from now on? Or are those temporary due to production issues, etc. but the polished versions that are displayed on the red store will soon become available again? If it is the former, then please let us know and post those new accessory pictures on the store. If it's the latter, then let us know that too.

[Kevin Wild]

Jing, that is a good question.

We will hopefully get an answer to that soon. Red, you have 7 minutes...go. :-)

[Jarred Land]

We have addressed the finishing irregularities with a new process. This is a running change that is almost complete.

Most of the parts we have sent out were just fine ( as reported here ) but some of you may have gotten some parts that don't have a finish that lives up to expectations. You can contact customer service and send them back, and we will update them with the new finish.

Just under 7 minutes :)

[Brigham Edgar]

um.. this thread started YESTERDAY at 3:30pm ( on a Saturday mind you )

how is responding in 24 hours .. on a Sunday.. ignoring the issue?

Jeeze.

Not sure on operations at RED whether it's a 7 day operation or not, but if it's a closed up shop for the weekend thumbs up for you to be on here. Did you manage that beer yet? I'm sure if any of you blokes make it down to Australia there will be a cold one waiting for you...might even shout you a few!

[Jason Ing]

and no, i don't expect an immediate answer, Jarred. You and the Red team are frickin' awesome in customer service, etc. It matches the quality of the Red camera.

But considering the Red team has personally raised the bar so frickin' high...

...well, I'll be checking back here in an hour or so for the answer. lol. j/k. :)

[Jason Ing]

lol! okay, jarred proved my point and even beat my next post. i guess an hour was really underestimating you.

[Luis Otero]

Personally, and many of you anonymous ones will disagree with me, I think that reduser.net should use real names like DVInfo.net. I find that people are MUCH more liable to take some cheap attack or word something way over-the-top, if they can hide behind a silly name without any possible reprecussions... But that said, some of these posts are pretty offensive to the people working so hard. RED has said in past posts "keep on us," but that doesn't mean in a rude and attacking manner.

KW

Kevin,

I 100% agree with your position. I use my real name so people know where the comments are coming from. If I say something wrong, I will admit it and correct it as appropriate.

Again guys and gals, just follow the channels. Your issues will be resolved if you follow the systems Red has put in place to correct any complaint. They are very good at this, and take it very seriously.:weight_lift:

Luis

[Jason Ing]

is it possible to change our id's after the fact? i tried along time ago, but couldn't find anything.

[Pig]

That post was way out of line...wait a sec, I wrote it! :(

Goes to show that tempers can run wild if untethered; sorry for any offense; although it wasn't meant quite as offensive as it now [admittedly] sounds, it was still over the line.

'pologies...

[Mark Pedersen]

We have addressed the finishing irregularities with a new process. This is a running change that is almost complete.

Most of the parts we have sent out were just fine ( as reported here ) but some of you may have gotten some parts that don't have a finish that lives up to expectations. You can contact customer service and send them back, and we will update them with the new finish.

Just under 7 minutes :)

Jarred,

Thanks for the response (and on a Sunday night mind you!). That's exactly what I was hoping for—a response to user feedback and concerns that were posted long before my post, and had become a concern of mine as a result. It is exactly what I thought Red's response would be. A responsible, "we'll take care of it".

I was quite surprised by the intensity of the reactions and not at all happy with some of the negative and inflammatory responses that implied that Red had devious intensions. What's appropriate on this site is community discourse, user feedback and questions to Red about its products and service. What's not appropriate is insulting and rude behavior.

Please understand that the intent of my post was to draw attention to an issue that concerned me (and presumably others) as a customer with Red accessories on order. Assuming that the fit & function of the parts will be addressed as well, you've addressed my concern. Thanks!

(I was happy to wait until Monday BTW!)

Cheers,
M

[Brent@RED]

Not sure on operations at RED whether it's a 7 day operation or not, but if it's a closed up shop for the weekend thumbs up for you to be on here.

Our "published" hours of operation are on http://www.red.com/contact_us .

However, just check the timestamp on recent posts from Jarred, Jim, me, the BOMB SQUAD, etc. and see that our actual hours of operation might be a little beyond that :)

Thanks, BC

[Mark Pedersen]

So when are you guys actually "gone"? Never it seems :)

Such is the nature of biz today. :(

Thanks for being there for us in thick or thin.

M

[Brent@RED]

RED isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. If you want to thank anyone, thank our significant others who let us sit in bed typing away on REDUSER instead of going to sleep, haha.

BC

[PMascetta]

We have addressed the finishing irregularities with a new process. This is a running change that is almost complete.

Most of the parts we have sent out were just fine ( as reported here ) but some of you may have gotten some parts that don't have a finish that lives up to expectations. You can contact customer service and send them back, and we will update them with the new finish.

Just under 7 minutes :)

Hey Jarred, so glad to hear this. I was starting to shop around at other third party accessory sights and it felt like I was cheating on my significant other. :sick:

[Jason Ing]

Hey Jarred, so glad to hear this. I was starting to shop around at other third party accessory sights and it felt like I was cheating on my significant other. :sick:

yeah, my knee jerk reaction was based on a similar line of thought... I really want ALL THINGS RED. :blush:

[Mark Pedersen]

RED isn't a job, it's a lifestyle. If you want to thank anyone, thank our significant others who let us sit in bed typing away on REDUSER instead of going to sleep, haha.

BC

So is being a user on Red user! Good night!

M

[Steve Gibby]

IMO RED Team does a remarkable job of listening to their customers and addressing their concerns quickly and decisively.

I've purchased tons of RED accessories, and been very happy with them. My personal thanks to RED Team for the long hours and hard work...much appreciated by this customer and the other customers in my sphere of associates.

You guys seriously rock!

[Brent@RED]

I mentioned the plan in another thread, but want you to find it here:

"If you think an accessory part does not have a finish that meets your expectations, please get us those parts at a convenient time that does not affect your shooting schedule. We will get the finish updated to our current coating specifications. Note, this process can take up to two weeks.

If you think a part is out tolerance, please let us know. If it is, the part will be replaced."

Thanks, BC

[Jason Ing]

You guys got your work cut out for you to have to post to multiple threads to get the word out. That's crazy. A job by itself.

props to brent, jarred, and the red team.

[Jason Ing]

maybe someone at red can setup a latest news/info thread where only red can post to on smaller issues (but not as big news as jim's recon). other redusers of volunteer firefighters can help get the "official" word out and help put out little fires like this one started. as a reduser addict, i'd be a volunteer myself and make sure to spread the news to other users in other threads and set people straight.

[Alexander Christ]

Jarred and Brent, thanks a lot for claryfing and disposing of once and for all this issue. I'm looking forward to the new finish.

[Steve Sherrick]

Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this guys. Jarred, you are a patient man. I'm sure it's tough coming under fire while working non stop, so props to you guys for sticking it out.

I think it's fair for customers to get their money's worth. I think there has been a nice system of checks and balances here on the forum, but sometimes it does get a little brutal. As long as at the end of the day, we can all agree that the RED is better off for it and there are no personal attacks, I think it's good progress. So far, Red has responded to a lot of the issues and they admit it's an evolving process. If everyone contributes constructive praise and criticism, the path to a better product will happen faster.

[Casey Green]

It is good to see that parts with the poor finish will be swapped out.

It would also be nice to see the description for the dovetail / baseplate (which are included in the base production pack) updated to state that they are only intended for shoulder mount usage. We were under the impression that this package would work well on a tripod as well, until we mounted it and found it was very loose, even after swapping out for another baseplate and dovetail.

[Brent@RED]

It is good to see that parts with the poor finish will be swapped out.

It would also be nice to see the description for the dovetail / baseplate (which are included in the base production pack) updated to state that they are only intended for shoulder mount usage. We were under the impression that this package would work well on a tripod as well, until we mounted it and found it was very loose, even after swapping out for another baseplate and dovetail.

Check the product detail descriptions on the RED online store :)

BC

[Kyle Mallory]

Brent,

The descriptions on the site are a great improvement, but still have a long way to go. I realize you guys are under a lot of pressure to do a lot more important things beyond updating product descriptions on the website.

So... Have you thought about encouraging members of REDUSER to write descriptions and submitting them? You could start by creating a new sub-section of this section of the forum, with one new thread/topic for each of the major accessories, and letting all of us have a crack at writing a description. You or someone from RED could update the top most post with the "best" description (as it evolves), and copy the text to the RED store.

Just an idea...

[Shawn Booth]

Awesome!
So what is the metal buzzsaw icon? Is it a replacement for the front of the RED?

[Paris Remillard]

I still don't understand why Red didn't use standard ARRI dovetails in their designs. Has there been any comment on that and I just missed it?

[Brent@RED]

The descriptions on the site are a great improvement, but still have a long way to go. I realize you guys are under a lot of pressure to do a lot more important things beyond updating product descriptions on the website.

I wrote those tonight so don't be too harsh :)

Feel free to give me suggestions on info you'd like to see and I will work on it.

BC

[Brent@RED]

Awesome!
So what is the metal buzzsaw icon? Is it a replacement for the front of the RED?

About 5x larger than that coin :)

Personally, I have it on the back windshield of my truck!

BC

[Shawn Booth]

I think I've seen a photo of your truck! Cool, now I know what that icon is. Thanks Brent!

[Brent@RED]

I think I've seen a photo of your truck! Cool, now I know what that icon is. Thanks Brent!

No, the truck in the 20" logo sticker is not mine :). I wish though, total truck envy!

BC

[Brian Fairbanks]

Kowboy don't let Brent discourage you. I think a nice big buzzsaw on the front of the camera will look awesome

[Brent@RED]

That comes from a guy who has a 2 foot Honda H on the hood of his Accord...

BC

[Casey Green]

Check the product detail descriptions on the RED online store :)
BC


I wrote those tonight so don't be too harsh :)
Feel free to give me suggestions on info you'd like to see and I will work on it.
BC

Our main concerns are that the product description when you get a confirmed order says something along the lines that the RED dovetail and baseplate are meant for use in both shoulder mount AND Tripod shooting setups. This is not the case as the baseplate does not lock down tight enough once the Camera and accessories are added to it. Also, the holes in the baseplate are so close to the top of the plate that they are very weak and can not support too much tension. These are the types of descriptions we would have liked to have known about before purchasing the base production pack.

This was recently confirmed in one of Jarred's recent posts:


hey Mark your comments are noted.

The shoulder plate will mount on a tripod just fine, it just wont be as solid as it looks like your hoping for. The shoulder dovetail's primary purpose is to be used on your shoulder. We make the cheeseplate that attaches to the baseplate for when you want to have a rock solid base with zero movement, if thats how you plan on using it.

From the descriptions on the item invoice, we did not expect this problem when using the dovetail/baseplate for tripod shooting. The idea (we thought) was that you could purchase one solution for both types of setups and they BOTH would be rock solid.

We are very aware of the other options from third parties, but hopefully another solution is offered in the future from RED for the base production pack, as that is a great package for the price.

[grandpa it burns]

What will be next? Wooden body? :-)

That is a wonderful idea... I'm going to get working on that in my wood shop...a nice purple heart or zebra-wood combined with a nice lacquer finish...beautiful!!! Thanks for the idea.

[Brent@RED]

Casey, see the description for the DOVETAIL: http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/46

Recommends CHEESE PLATE when an extremely rock solid mounting is required.

BC

[Charles Perkins]

nice work on the descriptions Brent.

one suggestion though, the price for the nikon mount still shows at $500 with a deposit of $50, it should be $800 and $80.

[Jeremy Newmark]

Chas,

I could be wrong, but I believe the nikon mount is still going to be $500. It looked like it was going to go to $800, but Jarred chimed back in and said they found a different manufacturer, so the price would remain at $500.

[Brent@RED]

You are correct, jnewm.

BC

[Laco Zamba]

Jarred: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=168257&postcount=120

[Charles Perkins]

awesome!

[Greg Syverson]

RED Team,

Thank you

Greg

[Brent J. Craig]

I wrote those tonight so don't be too harsh :)

Feel free to give me suggestions on info you'd like to see and I will work on it.

BC

How about fixing the part where it says the camera can do 60FPS in 4K?

[Brent@RED]

How about fixing the part where it says the camera can do 60FPS in 4K?

We are updating the RED ONE descriptors, yup.

BC

[Kenn Christenson]

Casey, see the description for the DOVETAIL: http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/46

Recommends CHEESE PLATE when an extremely rock solid mounting is required.

BC

That kinda sucks - now I have to fork out another $300 to have a sturdy tripod mount? Why not have the cheese plate as an option for the production pack, instead of the dovetail?

[J.D. Frey]

yeah we hit this issue too- we loaded the sticks up with the red, lens, teleprompter, battery, and drive- it definitely had some wobble to it.- i think the reason they go with the dovetail in the production pack is because you can use it for both shoulder and lite tripod situations- it's more versatile. However if you are building for a heavy tripod setup you need to use something else.

[Casey Green]

Casey, see the description for the DOVETAIL: http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/46

Recommends CHEESE PLATE when an extremely rock solid mounting is required.

BC

Yes, I see that the description finally has been added to the website yesterday. :mellow:

This is great for new customers that have not yet taken delivery of this item. For the rest of us, this information should have been made available a long long time ago.

It seems possible that after the change was made from machined to cast accessories, the baseplate may have suffered by inconsistencies in the tightness when locking down and also in tolerances.

From what we've personally seen and also read from other users, this is a common problem on this particular part (baseplate), and one that was not spoken of in the original descriptions. (possibly because the machined version did not have this problem). If that is the case and this problem is due to the changeover, it would be nice to see RED offer another solution for those who purchased the baseplate (base production pack), whether this is a trade in or an incentive to purchase other accessories such as the cheeseplate. (maybe the chheseplate is added to the base production pack from now on?)

We have always been encouraged by RED to offer our feedback both positive and constructively critical.

Just some thoughts, but hopefully there is a solution. We only hope to help RED make the product better.

[Shawn Nelson]

My shoulder dovetail is rock solid. I use two 3/8 screws and it never moves.

[Casey Green]

Shawn, is yours the original machined version or the cast version?

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey folks, just trying to check in and dig around and find out what the final verdict was on the quality control of current RED accessories delivering?

I understand the current batches are cast and not machined and as a result there are differences in the finishing and quality etc but was was REDs final final answer to this? Are the machined days over?

[Jason Ing]

Everything will be just fine.


We have addressed the finishing irregularities with a new process. This is a running change that is almost complete.

Most of the parts we have sent out were just fine ( as reported here ) but some of you may have gotten some parts that don't have a finish that lives up to expectations. You can contact customer service and send them back, and we will update them with the new finish.

Just under 7 minutes :)

[C.H.Haskell]

Splendid...thank you jing.

[Dale Launer]

Yes, all my accs. are the shiny/glossy black finish like in the store photo Except the bottom rod adapter which I'm not using because I need the 15mm base.


Actually, they're not shiny per se, but satin finished. More of a dark black anodized alumimun. Just trying to be accurate here!

The pic up at the top of the frame looks like part of it is grey-ish, but the battery mount part looks (appropriately) black.

[Jason Ing]

satin sounds nice. maybe a little silky too?

[CJ Roy]

After a shoot last week we noticed that we were having a hard time sliding in the rods for the top mount on #511. We took a closer look and found the problem. This is a comparison to the top mounts that shipped with #96.

http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_1.jpg
http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_2.jpg

The cast top mount doesn't have enough thickness to prevent it from breaking. I'm not sure if that's a result from being machined initially or the anodizing process, but clearly it's unacceptable.

[Harry Clark]

BAD NEWS.
I was kinda on the sidelines here because the finish of the cast parts vs. the machined did not really matter to me. But I was quietly wondering about the strength of the parts.
I have noticed on my Arri cameras that cast parts seem to break more readily than machined parts, in general. Older SR handgrips, for example. I was in a rental house in Europe and a guy showed me a bin FULL of SR1 cast handles, all broken. the top handle on the SRs were also very suspect. Of course, the SR, the Red, and every other camera, should be held from the bottom with one hand if you're holding the handle with the other. That's just good AC habits.
But please, guys...
If we're gonna mount the top handle of the camera to 4 little screws, and then pick up the camera, the Optimo, the Panasonic 8.4", and all the rest, can we PLEASE MAKE SURE that someone with metallurgy expertise has certified that the brackets to which the screws are connected have sufficient shear strength and can "cycle" this load MANY THOUSANDS OF TIMES...
Guys, this is no joke. I don't care so much if the accessories have a ghetto finish. I DO VERY MUCH CARE if my camera and (more importantly) Cooke 15-40 hits the ground.
RED TEAM???
Harry

[Andrew M.]

Tips of the side handles have to be tested for excessive stress as well.
It is the very end of the tip that holds not only the weight of the camera but the pressure from the clamping screw. Anybody wants to test yanking it out of the 19mm rod? It is $200 experiment though.

[Brent J. Craig]

Let's hope they at least built the bodies properly. One of the main reasons I am going with the Sim handles is because of how fragile all of Red's cast parts seem to be.

[Ed Watkins]

Just to chime in.

I've had the RED down in the tropics for just over a week.

The LCD arm is already rusting (even though I keep it in a bag with silica gel, when not in use) it has a nasty rust rash on the surface, and so are all the red hex bolts holding the cradle and other accessories together. When did manufactures stop using stainless steel, or for that matter proper finishing techniques?

I'll definitely be giving RED a call when I get back.

[Tony Lorentzen]

As long as these cast parts are part of the RED accessories line-up, I'm not buying any of them. I'd rather pay more for the machined ones.

[Michael Morlan]

The LCD arm is already rusting (even though I keep it in a bag with silica gel, when not in use) it has a nasty rust rash on the surface, and so are all the red hex bolts holding the cradle and other accessories together. When did manufactures stop using stainless steel, or for that matter proper finishing techniques?

The RED arms are OEM'ed Noga arms so you might discuss with them as well.

I would simply order stainless steel for all the bolts. It doesn't cost that much.

[C.H.Haskell]

This is certainly throwing me a curve ball as my order is coming up...hope to hear from RED soon cause I will need to figure out who to go to for my accessories.

I second Harry about the concern of strength over finish and its quite obvious these cast parts are not holding up. I know RED is working on this, I am confident they will remedy the issue as they always manage to do, I just wonder where it is on there priority list.

I am guessing RED's number one priority must be getting cameras out the door but at what cost?

[Joel Kaye]

I am guessing RED's number one priority must be getting cameras out the door but at what cost?

I'm not sure that's totally fair. They want to make the best camera they possibly can, produce them in quanity, quickly AND have the quality right AND turn a profit. That's quite a mix. They're figuring it out.

I'm a little concerned about the top handle because you know that's going to get stressed hard. The cradle is built like a tank so cast or not I don't think there will be issues.

Since the bolts are mostly 1/4" course thread I "think" a trip down to the hardware store could get people whatever they prefer.

[C.H.Haskell]

I agree 100% Joelnet, it is quite a mix for them to sort out...I am simply trying to sort out where to get my accessories. I am sure at the end of the day I will have a mix of both RED and 3rd party.

The more I think about it the more I realize I wont have my RED 1781 before NAB so might as well take the opportunity to get my hands on everything RED and 3rd party prior to finalizing my order.

For the record I have spoken with people receiving RED accessories now and they are satisfied with them and everything is fitting. :)

[Medavoym]

I, for one, am extremely disappointed with the quality built of the accessories. Therefore, I have made the decision not to purchase any RED cast accessories at all. Not even the cradle.

I will only buy the body, power system (charger plus 2 batteries), LCD, flash module and a simple battery plate ($175). This should be enough for shooting.

The rest (top mounts, top cheeseplate, 15mm bottom bridge plate etc) I will buy from Element Technica. Top handle etc - I will wait for other options or adapt some myself.

Sorry to say but while RED has superbly exceeded expectations with the camera itself, the accessories are a real let-down. I actually don't know how Jim can live with the current situation.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

dont know what to think about red assecoires.

1. people say they have a low quality
2. the drives went from 900 to 1100 USD effectively

the gears are used for some weeks/months only and get broken
they should last for a couple of years imo.

[Andrew M.]

Jim has S/N 1 so all was machined parts then:-)

[Medavoym]

I know.

When I said I don't know how Jim can live with the current situation, I meant him knowing that many of his customers are disappointed with his accessories. And I fully and honestly believe he wants to see them 110% happy.

[Nick Gardner]

I have held off commenting on this, but with shit breaking it should be discussed. I think that the design for the shoulder dove tail is bad. It doesn't matter how it's made the design is flawed. People have been making sliding dove tails for a long time, and as far as I know, no one ever used this goofy pin system. It seems to me that whomever did the design work on this stuff made it in a computer, spit it out onto a CNC mill, and had no actual machining/engineering back ground at all, they just wanted it to look cool. If that is not true, and they actually paid an engineer to design this stuff they should fire him.

Shoulder dovetail sucks.

Hand grips slip

I have seen photo's of lots of broken parts

Tolerances are way out of wack/vary depending on when you got them.

There is no shortage of world class machinists in the US. The prices are reasonable. If I go down to Eastern Plating where I get my parts anodized, there are boxes and boxes of parts made to much higher tolerances and standards than the Red AKS. How come the guy who makes RC car hubs in his garage can get it right, and the factory in Singapore can't ?

I am sure that the folks at Red are aware that there is a problem, I am sure they are trying to fix it. I just hope that in the rush, they can take a hard look at some of these designs, and realize they may need to rethink a few things.

When the AATON XTR firts came out the casting on the front where the rods screwed in was designed badly and it constantly broke off when you wacked the rods. So, they changed it.

I think the camera is superb, the images are just spectacular. But hire the guys at ET to make your AKS.

Nick

[Matt Sconce]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=172045&postcount=41

This is red's response to the different accessories.

[Harry Clark]

Arrinick,
Well said, especially the comparison to Aaton. Very rough going in the early days, but eventually they grew the system into the slickest and smartest 16mm choice. I for one am willing to be patient, as the Red Team has a lot on their plate. If we early adpoters have to bear the brunt of growing pains, so be it. Just everyone be aware of the (probably very remote) potential for catastophic failure of certain parts and BE CAREFUL when you pick up the camera with all the heavy stuff on it.
Red Team?
Cheers,
Harry

[Ivan G]

BE CAREFUL when you pick up the camera with all the heavy stuff on it.
Harry

What kind of BS is this? I've never heard or seen anything like that! I'm really beginning to doubt RED accessories...:sad:

[Matthew Rogers]

What kind of BS is this? I've never heard or seen anything like that! I'm really beginning to doubt RED accessories...:sad:

I don't think he meant it like an excuse for RED, I think he just meant it as a warning in case someone did.

Matthew

[Matt Uhry]

Don't Panic. This is the easy part. You are getting a 4k camera for cheap, it might take a little bit of cash and effort to kit it out with some choice AKS.

Element has some good solutions, as does Sim and probably others will soon.

Some people are very happy with the Red Aks - It depends on what you are used to and how much you are willing to spend. It may involve weeding out some defective stuff.

For my needs, to make the camera perform the way I wanted it to I used mostly Elements gear and a few custom pieces. I'm used to film cameras and I wanted my Red to be as compatible, compact and durable as possible.

Different users have different objectives. Figure out what you want and build it out with that in mind. Many roads lead to the same place. There are not many wrong answers and if you end up with some gear you don't want or need put it up on ebay.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Mark Pedersen]

After a shoot last week we noticed that we were having a hard time sliding in the rods for the top mount on #511. We took a closer look and found the problem. This is a comparison to the top mounts that shipped with #96.

http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_1.jpg
http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_2.jpg

The cast top mount doesn't have enough thickness to prevent it from breaking. I'm not sure if that's a result from being machined initially or the anodizing process, but clearly it's unacceptable.

Well, these images say it all I'm afraid. You can clearly see the differences in part thickness and consistency. In the the bottom plate images I've seen, it's the same deal. Not enough material at the obvious stress point, and you have a break. And how long have these parts been in use? Not years mind you. Weeks or months at the most. It's one thing to have a $200 dollar part fail this quickly. But a critical support component failure that could cost you a $20,000 - $65,000 lens or worse is clearly BS.

[Jason Wingrove]

im sorry but the 4k camera for cheap argument doesnt wash with me, yes the camera is fantastic but thats simply no excuse for all that we're seeing here. Thanks btw CJRoy for your great snaps. I'm sure RED is onto it as WE KNOW that Jim and co simply woudnt be happy with customer reactions like this given the fantastic level of build and customer satisfaction we're used to with red so far im kinda surprised any of it was actually let out the door?

its one thing to have a finish that scratches more easily but cracking and not tightening / locking ion place etc is really something else!

[planet e]

when i received my camera last week, they were out of many parts (dovetail, baseplate, top mount)--mine are all back-ordered. with the exception of my RED drive, which has that powdery gray finish, all of the rest of the parts on the camera seem to be solid and of the black shiny finish. of course, i have not had time to torture test them yet, but they look good, not like the pictures that i'm seeing here.

so, based on this experience, i believe that they are listening and working on the finish problems. and holding up parts orders to do it, rather than shipping poorly finished products.

it might be helpful to get confirmation of this from RED, however.

[Ivan G]

Don't Panic.
www.mattuhry.com

I'm not but I just sent a check over night to RED and I have to make a decision quickly. I think I'm going to hold off on all AKS until NAB :cold:

[A. Bastaki]

just so you know... burgers on burger king ads.. or mc-dee's.. don't look like the ones you buy when you order em.

however, when the burgers are consumed "properly"... they really do get the job done... you might get diarrhea every now and then... but hey... its a cheap satisfying meal.
________
Vapor Lounge (http://vaporizer.org/forum/vapor-lounge/)

[Brent@RED]

so, based on this experience, i believe that they are listening and working on the finish problems. and holding up parts orders to do it, rather than shipping poorly finished products.

it might be helpful to get confirmation of this from RED, however.

Finish concerns have been addressed and the vast majority of the accessories are coming in with the new finish. planet e is correct - some accessories were on backorder as we waited for them to arrive with the new finish.

As I stated in another thread, "if you think an accessory part does not have a finish that meets your expectations, please get us those parts at a convenient time that does not affect your shooting schedule. We will get the finish updated to our current coating specifications. Note, this process can take up to two weeks. If you think a part is out tolerance, please let us know. If it is, the part will be replaced. If you have any questions, please ask your sales rep or PM me."

You guys gave feedback on the finish, RED addressed it, and we all think the concerns over finish will be eliminated with this new finish.

Thanks, BC

[Steve Freebairn]

Finish concerns have been addressed and the vast majority of the accessories are coming in with the new finish. planet e is correct - some accessories were on backorder as we waited for them to arrive with the new finish.

As I stated in another thread, "if you think an accessory part does not have a finish that meets your expectations, please get us those parts at a convenient time that does not affect your shooting schedule. We will get the finish updated to our current coating specifications. Note, this process can take up to two weeks. If you think a part is out tolerance, please let us know. If it is, the part will be replaced. If you have any questions, please ask your sales rep or PM me."

You guys gave feedback on the finish, RED addressed it, and we all think the concerns over finish will be eliminated with this new finish.

Thanks, BC

Our accessories that we just got, look beautiful, great quality with a great finish.

[A. Bastaki]

Brent... Audio too please.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10285
________
Mercedes-benz 240d specifications (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_240D)

[Brent@RED]

Looks like you are using the mini-XLR to mini-XLR cable and XLR adaptor. In the README notes for Build 15, it states that you need to notify us if you have those so we can replace with new XLR to mini-XLR cable adaptors. I would suggest trying those first.

BC

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Our accessories that we just got, look beautiful, great quality with a great finish.

More feedback of this kind would be honney to my ears.:biggrin:

Emmanuel

[Joel Kaye]

Looks like you are using the mini-XLR to mini-XLR cable and XLR adaptor. In the README notes for Build 15, it states that you need to notify us if you have those so we can replace with new XLR to mini-XLR cable adaptors. I would suggest trying those first.


Can you post a picture of old vs. new parts for clarification?

[Harry Clark]

Brent,
I know that most people were concerned about the appearance of the finish. I didn't really care. I have one top mount that's machined and shiny, and one that's cast and flat. Whatever.
The bigger question, raised for me by CJRoy's post, is are the cast parts structurally sound especially where they take the entire load of the camera, lens, and accessories, which are also typically pick points for the grips to rig them on stunt vehicles, etc.
My experience with cast parts is that they don't have the same tensile strength as machined billet parts. But I'm not a metallurgist or master machinist. Who on the Red Team has those job descriptions? And can they comment here?
Cheers,
Harry

[chuckt]

A cable for $200? Parts not as pictured?
All these chinsy parts adding up to more than the $17.5 K you initially planned on spending?
Is Jim taking all of you fanboys for a ride?
You can buy a Sony Ex1 for $6500. Does 1080p. Easy workflow.
Everything including CF card included.
Open the case and start shooting the next moment.
You get your investment back after your first gig.
With RED, $200 cable and chinsy parts are just the beginning. Strap your belts and Get ready for a bumpy ride.

[Steve Sherrick]

Chuck, just come clean man. The suspense is killing us. Dealer or Sony Rep?

If you're just a regular guy who doesn't care for RED and likes Sony and Panasonic better, that's cool too. But you got to admit, it's pretty blatant, don't you think. I'm not a RED fanboy. I happen to like the camera. Does it fall short on some things right now, sure. So don't Sony and Panasonics. But why respond everytime with a Sony product pitch.

I hope I'm wrong. Maybe you are just a guy throwing your two cents in. If so, I apologize.

[Ravell]

A cable for $200? Parts not as pictured?
All these chinsy parts adding up to more than the $17.5 K you initially planned on spending?
Is Jim taking all of you fanboys for a ride?
You can buy a Sony Ex1 for $6500. Does 1080p. Easy workflow.
Everything including CF card included.
Open the case and start shooting the next moment.
You get your investment back after your first gig.
With RED, $200 cable and chinsy parts are just the beginning. Strap your belts and Get ready for a bumpy ride.

Chuckt:

1. Is it the anonymity of the internet that has made you this way or are you like this when you meet people face to face as well?

2. Have you ever contributed a single iota of helpful information to this forum or all of your posts as negative and whiny as the ones I have read lately? You're so blatantly trying to sow discontent - it's a shock you can't get a better return for your efforts elsewhere.

Moderators:

Why is he still here? Can't someone ban him already?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

A cable for $200? Parts not as pictured?
All these chinsy parts adding up to more than the $17.5 K you initially planned on spending?
Is Jim taking all of you fanboys for a ride?
You can buy a Sony Ex1 for $6500. Does 1080p. Easy workflow.
Everything including CF card included.
Open the case and start shooting the next moment.
You get your investment back after your first gig.
With RED, $200 cable and chinsy parts are just the beginning. Strap your belts and Get ready for a bumpy ride.


maybe you are right...

but hell the red one is sexy...the EX 1 looks like a toy.
i love the Design

[John Hunt]

Is Jim taking all of you fanboys for a ride?
You can buy a Sony Ex1 for $6500.

Hey Chuck! Are you any relation to Tokyo Rose?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Rose

[chuck colburn]

Put his name (be sure to include the T part) in that thingy which blocks his posts from showing up on your computer. It worked for me with that film gang or gangbang or what ever their name was. lol

[Jason Ing]

$6500. 1080p. LOL!

[Mike Van Laanen]

Harry,

I spent fifteen years owning a parts manufacturing company. We utilized laser, water-jets, CNC mills etc, etc. We also provided secondary finishing, anodizing through outsourcing. We manufactured industrial and architectural components for OEM's and builders. I think this would qualify me to answer some of your concerns - mine too.

I should be receiving my Red #855 in the next few days. I will be giving the accessories a good inspection and will post my opinion then. I can however tell you that a cast part, given identical dimensional characteristics and base metal composition to that of a machined part, will NEVER hold up as long. Nor can it be finished or weather protected as well as a machined part. The reason for this is the manner in which the molecules are aligned in a machined part during the manufacturing process vs. how a cast part is made up of little droplets of poured only metal - no opportunity for the cast molecules to join and align themselves. From the picture, I can see why these parts failed, the hole is too close to the edge - not enough meat for a cast part to ever hold up over time and use. Cast material is inherently brittle when compared to machined aluminum. Small hairline fractures can start as early as the reaming and tapping process of these holes. I know this because we use to edge trim and fine cut high tolerance holes in aluminum cast parts with our 50k psi water jet. Quality control x-ray tests confirmed that allowances had to be made for cast part hole location.

I understand Reds desire to break the mold and the death grip that sony, panasonic and their competitors had on this market. But I believe it is a mistake on their part to attempt to provide cast parts which will be used as support for their new baby in an effort to keep down the cost of said parts.

Within the component parts manufacturing industry, price is a function of volume. Machine set up and CADD design time is divided by order quantity in calculating price quotes. I know that a CNC mill costs about $85/hr to run and wear items such as bits should not add too much to the cost as we are dealing with aluminum. There are literally thousands of machine shops out there with the capability to pump these parts out, ship them to an finishing house and then a QC check and out to Red and us. Orders of say of 3000+ should attract a lot of interest and that just one of the Red parts. If I still had my old company I'd be quoting on it. If someone at Red would like me to help out here I'd be happy to get some quotes for them. I'm a little busy for the next two weeks but could take a look after that.

Hope this helps.

Michael

[M. Bergeron]

Maybe something like this:
http://liquidmetal.com/

I don't know how it cost to make a part out of LiquidMetal but that would be incredible. There is an issue with painting it though.

[Michael Morlan]

A cable for $200? Parts not as pictured?
All these chinsy parts adding up to more than the $17.5 K you initially planned on spending? etc...

I prefer education rather than banning or ignoring when I can (although I did my first ever "ignore" a couple weeks ago on this very forum.)

Chuck, it is apparent you are coming from the prosumer space and may find the cost of professional film and video gear a bit daunting. In the pro domain, everything is purchased ala carte, including batteries, lenses, support, etc. While pro-sumer gear has its charms and excellently serves its market niche, pro gear is designed to deliver to the next level. While the Sonys and Panasonics of the world are still delivering their best-of-show cameras at the $100K price-point, RED Digital Cinema introduced a professional camera at a fraction of that cost.

If $17,500 plus the needed accessories is a bit rich for your blood, then that's fine. Perhaps you might consider simply marveling at what R.D.C. has accomplished and expressing envy that you can't be a pro player right now, rather than griping about how this camera doesn't fit your needs at this time.

Who knows? Perhaps, by seeking mentors amongst those who are ahead of you in the game, you will get a leg up on your own career.

Good luck in your search for the perfect camera.

Michael

[Shawn Booth]

I prefer education rather than banning or ignoring when I can (although I did my first ever "ignore" a couple weeks ago on this very forum.)

Chuck, it is apparent you are coming from the prosumer space and may find the cost of professional film and video gear a bit daunting. In the pro domain, everything is purchased ala carte, including batteries, lenses, support, etc. While pro-sumer gear has its charms and excellently serves its market niche, pro gear is designed to deliver to the next level. While the Sonys and Panasonics of the world are still delivering their best-of-show cameras at the $100K price-point, RED Digital Cinema introduced a professional camera at a fraction of that cost.

If $17,500 plus the needed accessories is a bit rich for your blood, then that's fine. Perhaps you might consider simply marveling at what R.D.C. has accomplished and expressing envy that you can't be a pro player right now, rather than griping about how this camera doesn't fit your needs at this time.

Who knows? Perhaps, by seeking mentors amongst those who are ahead of you in the game, you will get a leg up on your own career.

Good luck in your search for the perfect camera.

Michael

Nice post Michael.

[Uli Plank]

The Sony EX-1 is a great little camera and probably for quite a while the best one in the price range below 10 grand. So what's wrong with buying an EX-1 if someone can't afford a RED? BTW, we have one since we needed it and are still waiting for our RED.

But it has been made very clear from the beginning that a naked RED is not ready for shooting – just like any other professional cinematic camera. But with proper accessories it will be the best one below 50 grand (or maybe far beyond) and that's a very different class!

Regards,

Uli

[Harry Clark]

Thanks for the insight Michael. That confirms my suspicion of cast parts in general.
Well, I for one would pay a third party for better quality accessories (in fact I have from Element Technica) especially where mission-critical items are concerned (top mounts that could shear right off)
So count me in if there are any serious machinists reading.
Cheers,
Harry

[Michael Stanmore]

If someone at Red would like me to help out here I'd be happy to get some quotes for them. I'm a little busy for the next two weeks but could take a look after that.

Michael

I hope Red does see that although some of us on the forum are less experienced and what not... there are definitely some highly knowledgable and skilled people here offering to help out...

and the rest of us will help in any way we can... hell I got a friend living in LA whose couch I can crash on if Red needs more hands... though I'd be an illegal alien... :(

But I'm sure you could get some extra hands in from LA. If I was in LA and had a work visa I'd jump at the chance of helping out...even for little in the way of recompence. (food and board would do)... The redolution is meant to be something fantastic to happen to the motion picture world... and it's a bit of a shame that these few issues are spoiling our fun.

Funny thing is... we want to see the big boys grip broken just as much as you zealots with the red-coloured usernames... and some of us take it personally because we want the redolution to succeed and these problems are endangering it.

I suspect that Red are losing a serious amount of cash on the Basic Production Kit. It seems to be definitely the more serious of their underestimations of the cost of the parts. But... the answer is definitely not a reduction in quality. That's never the answer. We aren't the handicam market afterall. Most of us have already said that we'd probably pay a little more if it meant that the accessories were reliable, well built, and worked right out of the box. Right now though... I basically give myself a 50-60 percent chance of having to send back some of my accessories (from the UK!) because they've been dodgily built and not QC'd... I love you guys but I need better than that coz it'll cost me a lot of time and money to mess around sorting out those things.

[Michael Hastings]

Harry,

I spent fifteen years owning a parts manufacturing company. We utilized laser, water-jets, CNC mills etc, etc. We also provided secondary finishing, anodizing through outsourcing. We manufactured industrial and architectural components for OEM's and builders. I think this would qualify me to answer some of your concerns - mine too.

I should be receiving my Red #855 in the next few days. I will be giving the accessories a good inspection and will post my opinion then. I can however tell you that a cast part, given identical dimensional characteristics and base metal composition to that of a machined part, will NEVER hold up as long. Nor can it be finished or weather protected as well as a machined part. The reason for this is the manner in which the molecules are aligned in a machined part during the manufacturing process vs. how a cast part is made up of little droplets of poured only metal - no opportunity for the cast molecules to join and align themselves. From the picture, I can see why these parts failed, the hole is too close to the edge - not enough meat for a cast part to ever hold up over time and use. Cast material is inherently brittle when compared to machined aluminum. Small hairline fractures can start as early as the reaming and tapping process of these holes. I know this because we use to edge trim and fine cut high tolerance holes in aluminum cast parts with our 50k psi water jet. Quality control x-ray tests confirmed that allowances had to be made for cast part hole location.

I understand Reds desire to break the mold and the death grip that sony, panasonic and their competitors had on this market. But I believe it is a mistake on their part to attempt to provide cast parts which will be used as support for their new baby in an effort to keep down the cost of said parts.

Within the component parts manufacturing industry, price is a function of volume. Machine set up and CADD design time is divided by order quantity in calculating price quotes. I know that a CNC mill costs about $85/hr to run and wear items such as bits should not add too much to the cost as we are dealing with aluminum. There are literally thousands of machine shops out there with the capability to pump these parts out, ship them to an finishing house and then a QC check and out to Red and us. Orders of say of 3000+ should attract a lot of interest and that just one of the Red parts. If I still had my old company I'd be quoting on it. If someone at Red would like me to help out here I'd be happy to get some quotes for them. I'm a little busy for the next two weeks but could take a look after that.

Hope this helps.

Michael

Michael, I've been manufacturing for 25 years and I agree with everything you said. I seriously wondered why (and in fact was disappointed) when I heard RED was manufacturing in Singapore as it seemed like there is a lot of machined parts in the unit and the cost of having that done here in the states would not have been that much more. As you said there are thousands of CNC shops that would have been happy to make those parts. In fact 1000 to 5000 units would seem to be an ideal quantity to keep in the states.

When I placed my order in 2006 I was happy and somewhat proud to see an American made product competing with the Japanese. I love the camera, but I certainly lost that element of pride when I found it was made in Singapore. I know it is designed in America, but that is IMHO one of the problems with modern America - I think it is a mistake to so heavily outsource your manufacturing capability - for a lot of economic and strategic reasons.

I'm not hardcore "BUY AMERICAN", but I try to keep it in mind and I think it is too bad more of it wasn't kept here. And I think a lot of the development woes, and QC problems, would have been reduced too.

[Tai Wah Lim]

Michael, I've been manufacturing for 25 years and I agree with everything you said. I seriously wondered why (and in fact was disappointed) when I heard RED was manufacturing in Singapore as it seemed like there is a lot of machined parts in the unit and the cost of having that done here in the states would not have been that much more. As you said there are thousands of CNC shops that would have been happy to make those parts. In fact 1000 to 5000 units would seem to be an ideal quantity to keep in the states.

When I placed my order in 2006 I was happy and somewhat proud to see an American made product competing with the Japanese. I love the camera, but I certainly lost that element of pride when I found it was made in Singapore. I know it is designed in America, but that is IMHO one of the problems with modern America - I think it is a mistake to so heavily outsource your manufacturing capability - for a lot of economic and strategic reasons.

I'm not hardcore "BUY AMERICAN", but I try to keep it in mind and I think it is too bad more of it wasn't kept here. And I think a lot of the development woes, and QC problems, would have been reduced too.

AquaVideoRed206, I hope you are not insinuating that things made in Singapore or anywhere else except USA are not good enough or are failing QC. I am sure Red has good reasons for making their camera where they want them made.

[Dylan Reeve]

In talking to manufacturers and suppliers in relation to my SolidStore it's become apparent that it's more or less impossible to 'buy American' these days (or NZ for that matter). Even NZ and US manufacturers I talk to tend to have most of the manufacturing work done in Asia (either by their own factories there, or by a third party). There is nothing inherently wrong with the process, the only issue is that it tends to mean it's harder to have oversight on the manufacturing and that issues might not be discovered until the parts are delivered.

The 'crappy' parts I've used didn't seem too bad to me, but certainly weren't as sexy as the sexy parts.

[ericyoung]

According to Jon's post (yellow highlighting post changes), Red are revisiting their cast parts.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7464

"...We have had growing pains in switching from expensive hand machined parts to affordable cast parts. From finish to tolerances, it has been a tough go and we have had to ask the customer's forgiveness as we get things right. We now have a beautiful glossy finish again and are in the process of improving tolerances".

My remaining concern is with parts that will be holding the entire camera package weight. Will the new sexy looking cast parts that are load carrying have similar mechanical shear/impact strength as the original machined ones?

When mounted on Steadicam on a vehicle for example, the G-forces can be much higher than anything encountered on more conventional mounts. So any load carrying support should hopefully have plenty of safety margin built in!

[Sean]

After a shoot last week we noticed that we were having a hard time sliding in the rods for the top mount on #511. We took a closer look and found the problem. This is a comparison to the top mounts that shipped with #96.

http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_1.jpg
http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_2.jpg

The cast top mount doesn't have enough thickness to prevent it from breaking. I'm not sure if that's a result from being machined initially or the anodizing process, but clearly it's unacceptable.

Thank you for posting this. We all want Red to rock the industry--and in many ways it's clearly going to do that. But we're using a single top handle to lift our camera. And we have the cast accessories--including the cast top mount. It doesn't look like I can trust this part to support the camera weight! Unless you were doing something exceptionally stressful with that top mount? Were you using it with some other support like a car mount or something?

[David Mutchler]

RED, pretty please, with sugar on top, go back to machined!

[Michael Hastings]

AquaVideoRed206, I hope you are not insinuating that things made in Singapore or anywhere else except USA are not good enough or are failing QC. I am sure Red has good reasons for making their camera where they want them made.

I think I was pretty clear in my comments:
"I'm not hardcore "BUY AMERICAN", but I try to keep it in mind and I think it is too bad more of it wasn't kept here. And I think a lot of the development woes, and QC problems, would have been reduced too."

My second sentence is echoed by Sycophant:


There is nothing inherently wrong with the process, the only issue is that it tends to mean it's harder to have oversight on the manufacturing and that issues might not be discovered until the parts are delivered.

I think RED purchasers would have been okay with paying a little more for machined parts that would give a greater level of strength and security than cast parts regardless of where they were made.

My biggest disappointment was that RED - in southern california - is in a prime location to get really top quality machining, alloys, etc. and given their volume I think the pricing would have been reasonable to stay with machined parts that were made in the USA. It is simply an opportunity lost as far as keeping American companies in the game.

I think it also may be the case that in looking for the cheapest end price it created a tendency to look over there first to get it done rather than utilizing the capabilities right in their own backyard that could have speeded up the process on a lot of the accessory parts.

[reality]

AquaVideo it is ironic that you are swearing up and down about your 25 years manufacturing experience and "USA MAKES THE BEST" when your "American Made" products (no offense) look like they belong in happy meals.

I am proudly American, but I know Germany kicks our ass in precision. Asia is not what it used to be. And unfortunately, USA isn't either.

[Michael Hastings]

AquaVideo it is ironic that you are swearing up and down about your 25 years manufacturing experience and "USA MAKES THE BEST" when your "American Made" products (no offense) look like they belong in happy meals.

I am proudly American, but I know Germany kicks our ass in precision. Asia is not what it used to be. And unfortunately, USA isn't either.

First of all, I never said USA MAKES THE BEST, and I would agree that the USA isn't what it used to be. That's kind of the point - it would be nice to keep whatever manufacturing that we can here and I think the RED stuff was a good candidate for that.

I would also agree that Germany generally i.e. on average, beats us in precision but the highest level of US design, machining, etc. is as good as anyone. My brother works in the electro-optical division of Hughes/Raytheon where they design and build extremely sophisticated optical systems for satellites and such and I really doubt if anyone at Zeiss is better than their top end people. However, there's the rub. The US companies pretty much just grab the really high dollar, no risk government/military jobs and we have ceded everything else to the Japanese, now chinese, etc.

However, we still have very capable people - like the Doug Underdahl's of the world who can both design and fabricate a Nikon mount for the RED in a weekend when the design team and the Singaporean contract manufacturer couldn't do it in six months. It is just that with the crazy overhead of American life it is difficult to scale that up to something profitable that competes with otherworld economies (I don't know what first, or second or third world means anymore - too many weird connotations attached) so I will just call it otherworld)

You may be right about the happy meals. I haven't claimed to be the slickest - in fact I generally don't even attempt to be the slickest as I don't think it is warranted for most of the consumer and prosumer camcorders that has been the bread and butter of the underwater video users in the dive industry.

That is, I don't think it makes sense to spend 7 or $8k on a Gates style housing for say an HVX200 when a $2500 pvc one gives you the same functionality and - because of neutral bouyancy issues - often better when you start getting into lights and such.

I started out in 1980 as a 25 year old end user with no money and took the philosophy that it wasn't about high tech or low tech - it is about appropriate technology. Unfortunately, I started when the PVC fabricated housings were really the only practical way to make reasonable priced one off housings for a video system in the days where you had separate cameras and recorders. So I knew about PVC fabricated construction and it still works very well for most cameras. Not all - certain ones like the Z1 and EX1 because of the particular size not fitting the available tube well, and the lousy design of the protruding mike, just don't work that well. But for others like the Sony FX7/V1, Canon GL2, Panasonic HVX200 and the like it works very well. I say unfortunately because I have a hard time selling the "sizzle" not the steak when I know better - even though many people will pay for it and prefer it (somebody on REDUSER posted a very interesting link showing a study that people preferred the exact same wine when it was in a $90 bottle as opposed to a $12 bottle).

And BTW the RED as far as underwater housings is a similar situation - it is almost perfectly sized for a compact cylindrical housing. We are making most of them out of aluminum because that is what customers have asked for and when you get to a $7K to $20K housing for a $20,000 camera the cost difference isn't that much.

The "happy meal" look comes from the difference between a "fabricated" product like mine and a "manufactured" product like Gates. And I'm not knocking Gates - their price is very fair for all the extra work they do - it is just that it doesn't really get you much. Gates is the same basic technology as AquaVideo - i.e. manual, "IKELITE-style" controls in a waterproof box. (Amphibico and L&M at least are differentiated by the electronic controls - a philosophy that I have some issues with too,). So with Gates you are mostly paying for all of the extra work that goes into handling aluminum, machining aluminum (and the jigs and such necessary to setup for machining), welding or casting aluminum, tapping aluminum, anodizing aluminum, painting aluminum, etc.

The cost isn't that much greater if you are making a large number of them, but that just isn't the situation in underwater camera housings - for any of the companies. All of those extra costs get spread over just a few units and the price has to be high.

With the fabricated PVC housings you have probably seen from us, there just isn't any practical way to make them a lot slicker. The aluminum housings we are making for the RED will be a little more machined and "manufactured" looking. But they are still somewhat fabricated as well so probably won't be as slick looking as what GATES is working on - but we are priced between $7K to 8K, with multiple port and lens options, all available now; where the estimates I have heard are $18K or so for Gates - delivery late this year, with limited lens options.

Due to the fact that the RED fits extremely well (almost perfect - Thanks, Jim!) with the cylindrical style housing we are making (the rectanglular shape of the Gates style helps with certain cameras like the Z1 or EX1 Sony's but would actually be bigger in volume with a RED than our cylinder) I don't think you will be giving up much if anything (we may even be more flexible) and I believe most of the extra $10K will go to the things that make it look slicker - i.e. that molded look rectangular shape, and a few "fit and finish" things.

I know you said "no offense" even though you kind of exaggerated my level of touting my experience and the "happy meal" description might be construed as a little harsh - so I won't take too much. But you kind of touched on a nerve because I know there are some questionable impressions out there. No one knows better than I which setups worked well and which didn't - and I have also had some significant customer service hiccups over the last couple years going through some life transitions (divorce, putting kids through college, etc.) but I also know that the basic approach is pretty good. Most of those issues are pretty well behind me and as far as the RED setup it is something I am heavily committed to and I think is coming together very nicely.

As far as the 25 years, you have never seen the results of the many funky projects I've built for NASA, the Seal teams, industrial users, etc. which are nothing like the everyday PVC AquaVideo housings - so you might find my expertise is a little deeper than you think. But even setting those aside, just because I may be a wannabe director, scriptwriter or whatever like the vast majority of REDUSERs doesn't mean I can't recognize a good script or movie. As it relates to RED, it just means I have been around and understand a lot of the issues.

[Tony Lorentzen]

I should be receiving my Red #855 in the next few days. I will be giving the accessories a good inspection and will post my opinion then.

Michael - I'm very interested in hearing your opinion once you've taken delivery of #855. Thanks!

[Jon Schellenger]

Let me chime in on this-

First off- I am very familiar with the housings from Aqua Video. I started with, continue to use, and will always use Aqua Video housings. I have done a bunch of underwater cinematography off of coral reefs and diving with sharks. I would go all the way around the world with an Aqua Video housing because I trust Mike- he and his housings have never done me wrong.

As he said, his housings may not be the "slickest" in the world- but damn they do function well!!! I have even dropped them accidentally on a boat during rough weather, and still jumped right in the water with it.

I prefer a heavy setup underwater because it is extremely stable for shots.

We were shooting great whites 3 years ago and we were on a live-aboard boat for a week, 225 miles off the coast of San Diego. A film director, who was shooting a documentary, had a gates housing that did not have a properly "seated" o-ring. (This can happen on any housing from anyone) On his first dive, his housing instantly flooded and he lost his camera. This was because he could not see the water rushing in. The gates is a "slick" black looking housing.. very cool looking indeed, however, very hard to see if water leaks in.

A year after that, I was getting ready to enter the water in the Florida Keys with an Aqua Video housing. My o-ring was not "seated" correctly. (My user-error). Because of the design and the fact that I can see clear through one end to the other- when the water rushed in, I was able to quickly get it out of the water and not one single drop of water touched the camera. That sold me on the fact that I will always stay with that design.

I am usually very neutral on peoples opinions- But on this, unless you completely understand why the design is the way it is- and unless you have hours and hours of underwater cinematography experience- I would not cut down Aqua Video's Housings.

[Douglas Underdahl]

Yeah, those all aluminum housings scare me - I've made a few out of 13mm plexi and it just makes me feel better that I can see that the camera is high and dry at all times. And if you have a really slow leak, you could see a little bit of water in the bottom and know that you have some time to surface before it reaches the cam.

[J Clark]

Our bottom rods support - the cheese plate- looks like that and the surface scratched off in the first few uses. Can we ship these defective parts back for a refund or replacement. I guess I assumed they all looked like this but I didn't realize until now that I too seem to have some bad parts.

[Damien Molineaux]

After a shoot last week we noticed that we were having a hard time sliding in the rods for the top mount on #511. We took a closer look and found the problem. This is a comparison to the top mounts that shipped with #96.

http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_1.jpg
http://www.cjroy.net/images/topmount_2.jpg

The cast top mount doesn't have enough thickness to prevent it from breaking. I'm not sure if that's a result from being machined initially or the anodizing process, but clearly it's unacceptable.

I have a similar problem, I cannot, for the life of me, get a rod through one hole in one of my top mounts, and the other hole is very very tight. No problems with the other top mount.

Red has asked me to ship them the mount so they can have a look at it, but my camera is in use. I would like them to ship me a replacement mount first.

Cheers,
Damien

[Peter Majtan]

I think this all comes to the problem of Jim and his team greatly underestimating the demand for their products. Having said that - it is not an excuse. What is going to happen after Scarlet is released? This are going to go get way worse before they will start getting better. I have kind-of came up to same conclusion in the Scarlet forum:

Is RED ready for Scarlet? Is RED going to upset RED ONE buyers?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11180

I guess it is already happening...

Lets hope Jim can recover from this before RED looses its reputation...

[CJ Roy]

Thank you for posting this. We all want Red to rock the industry--and in many ways it's clearly going to do that. But we're using a single top handle to lift our camera. And we have the cast accessories--including the cast top mount. It doesn't look like I can trust this part to support the camera weight! Unless you were doing something exceptionally stressful with that top mount? Were you using it with some other support like a car mount or something?

The broken part was from #511. It had no more stress on it than what the other machined part was doing at the same time, on #96. Both were never mounted from the top rods. All they ever did was hold the battery + drive.

[Lauri Kettunen]

Got my camera recently. Seems like RED has reacted on the comments different people have made. In fact, in my eye the finish of the accesorries is just great and look even better than the camera itself. We'll see how the accessories last, but tolerances, overall qualitys etc. looks just fine. At this point they yield no space for any remarks.

[Jeff Coatney]

I predict a new top mount prototype at NAB.