Build 15 & 16 news...

[Jannard]

Good news is that Build 15 Beta will be released this week. It is kick-ass. All outputs work and tons of new features and improvements.

Bad news. All monster image enhancements have been pushed to Build 16. There are so many improvements and surprises in the image chain that we need more time. We can't afford to miss anything on this one and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested... including RED Alert!, REDCINE and QT. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps.

We do NOT want to have anyone wait for all the rest of the cool stuff that is ready in Build 15.

Expect it in a few days.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

[Tai Wah Lim]

Always late, but worth the wait

[Rick Darge]

This is great news Jim!! Looking forward to using all outputs. That will quell the doubters! Thanks Red

[Brice Ansel]

Thank you for the good news Mr Jannard. Waiting for the nikon mount schedule and all will be perfect.
Brice

[Jannard]

Nikon mount is very soon...

Jim

[Harry Clark]

Thanks Jim... It seems that the camera just gets better each time you guys update.
Now about that post-process software... ;)
Cheers,
Harry

[David Limpus]

Jim, 18mm to 85mm F2.8 RED Zoom?

[Jannard]

Jim, 18mm to 85mm F2.8 RED Zoom?

Shown working at NAB.

Jim

[Andrew Benz]

Jim, 18mm to 85mm F2.8 RED Zoom?

Great question.

Great answer... How do you like shooting with it? Is it different than the other two zooms or similar in your approach and build?

I am really looking forward to this lens. Will it have witness marks?

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

RED now it is amazing camera . i had a chance to put my hands on it and test it

it was a very far dream for me .once anyone have it he will realize

that this camera is beyond anyone dreams .i wonder how it will gona be with build 15 :calm:

[Corrado Silveri]

Great news, Jim.

Thanks again. Do you think that it's possible to anticipate some of the imaging features of the 16?

Anyway, again, thanks.
You know that we can wait for you as long as you need...

[Damien Molineaux]

Wow, three great news on one page.

Build 15 is coming within a few days.

Nikon mount is on its heels.

THE Red lens I've been waiting for will be shown at NAB, if only I could be there, but anyhow it's great news, it's a big step forward.

Thank you Jim and Red team, keep up the good work.

Red #500, "Stalker", will be used on three short films in the next two months.

Cheers,
Damien

[Chris Gearhart]

It'll me great to have all the outputs active! Cool. Thanks for giving us what is ready to go, and I for one am fine with the push back to build 16 for the image quality.

Question: Does this mean that build 14 is ready to come out of beta? Will an updated build 14 be released when that happens?

[Casey Green]

Thank you for the continued improvements on an already amazing accomplishment.

One question with the outputs working all at once:

Will the resolution change in one or more of the outputs in order to make that possible? Since the LCD accepts only a lower resolution, do the other outputs have to change to a scaled version to accommodate this feature?

[Adrian Correia]

Jim,

I have a shoot that starts this tuesday...is 15 a recommend for this or should I stick with build 14....build 13? The outputs are the motivation for this more than anything. Thanks! Great news!

[Cam Crowley]

If anyone from RED can chime in tell us if the currently shipping cameras (1000 - 1250) will go out the door with build 15 that would be great.

Great news either way.

Cam

[Sudhir Chaudhary]

Good news is that Build 15 Beta will be released this week. It is kick-ass. All outputs work and tons of new features and improvements.

Bad news. All monster image enhancements have been pushed to Build 16. There are so many improvements and surprises in the image chain that we need more time. We can't afford to miss anything on this one and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested... including RED Alert!, REDCINE and QT. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps.

We do NOT want to have anyone wait for all the rest of the cool stuff that is ready in Build 15.

Expect it in a few days.


Hi !

I hope Release Build 16 is up and rocking by May :bleh: ???????

[sander kamp]

We have been hearing about these 'monster image enhancements' since 3 months or so. Are all tests being done now useless once build 16 is coming out?

[Stuart English]

If anyone from RED can chime in tell us if the currently shipping cameras (1000 - 1250) will go out the door with build 15 that would be great.


No, cameras always ship with the currently released code - which as of today is Build 13.

But upgrading is a less than 10 minute process.

[Stuart English]

Will the resolution change in one or more of the outputs in order to make that possible? Since the LCD accepts only a lower resolution, do the other outputs have to change to a scaled version to accommodate this feature?

No, with the Build 15 multi-monitor function all outputs remain at their existing resolution.

[David Birdy]

Jim & Red Team

Thanks for pushing the envelope !

Dave

[James Mathers]

Jim,
If, as I understand it, software Build 15 will allow me to use my RED LCD concurrently with other outputs, THAT IS GREAT NEWS! Even as I now have the EVF, and it is working very well, I personally prefer the LCD most of the time; it's light weight, bright and clear, without the necessity to keep your eye glued right to the camera. (This is very helpful when you use a jib arm a lot as I tend to do.)

In addition, the LCD is especially good for navigating the menus in lieu of looking through the small display in back of the camera which can be crowed with power and drive cables, or even the battery. The Camera Assistants are really getting quick at reaching only their fingers around to scroll through the menus on the rotary dial while they read the LCD. This is much faster than if they have to have their nose right up to the rear readout, and the layout of the menu in the rear display is also not as intuitive as the layout on the LCD.

In short, I love the LCD, and it will be great if I can now use it with other outputs. As always, your tireless work to constantly improve the camera is much appreciated. My first RED feature is now in post, and I'll be starting my second tomorrow, a black comedy road movie starring Olympia Dukakis and Haley Joel Osment; it should be a wild ride!

With Sincere Thanks,
James Mathers
Cinematographer, Studio City, CA
Owner RED #30X
President of the Digital Cinema Society

[planet e]

multi monitor, yessss! that one thing makes this a serious upgrade, looking forward to any other surprises are in the toolkit. thank you.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

All outputs work

That's really great. :construction:

[Red Follower]

Awaiting eagerly ... thanks

[SF Geek]

Is it a possibility sometime in the future for the HDSDI outputs to be at 1080? I remember hearing that for some reason that that would never be an option.

I'm very ready for all outputs. I'm glad you guys split the builds.

[Larry McKee]

I'm really glad to hear access to all the outputs is just around the corner. What about LUTs? Are they on board for Build 15, or being pushed back to 16?

[Emery Wells]

This is awesome news Jim. Im also hoping that build 15 will squash a few of the pesky bugs that have been lurking about. For example, on our last shoot we still ran into the following:

1. Varispeed mode does not hold during a power cycle. It will still show as turned on in the menu but it just does not record varispeed until you toggle it on and off. As a result, a good portion of our shots that we intended to shoot highspeed recorded at regular speed.

2. Reel #'s still have to be forced when changing resolutions.

3. One of our clips recorded a still image for the duration of the clip. Lost a killer highspeed shot on this one. Bummer. EDIT: This is embarrassing but we were wrong. We we're recording at 74fps and the talent was standing perfectly still for so long at the beginning of the clip that he appears completely frozen. The action only happens in the last few seconds of the clip.

4. Still getting random codec errors.

5. Sometimes the camera just doesnt want to record. The record lamp is on but the timecode stops advancing and nothing gets recorded to the card.

This was all on production build 13. RED has come a long way but I scare off DPs when these problems occur on set. Still loving the camera though, we got some really killer stuff this week.

[Stuart English]

Jim, LCD plus HD-SDI works a charm in Build 15.

Emery, send me a P.M about 3. and 5. I'd like to understand what happened specifically. The others yes, addressed in 14 series.

SF Geek, no 1080p on HD-SDI until we enable 1080p RGB recording. There have been multiple posts about this, so no change.

[roryhinds]

Great news on multi outputs.

When can we expect QT 16:9 support?

[Stuart English]

Great news on multi outputs.

When can we expect QT 16:9 support?

You mean for 4K 16:9 as well as 3K 16:9 and 2K 16:9 ... ?

[roryhinds]

yes please.

Please let us know a ETA on this, its been way too long :-)

[CJ Roy]

Is there an ETA on Build 16?

And please let us know when 16:9 (4k) for the QT codec will be enabled, so that RedAlert workflows are compatible. We've been hearing "soon" since November.

Currently Redcine will stop a render if it detects a drop frame. Red Alert doesn't.

Thanks.

-CJ

[Jeff Kieffer]

1. Varispeed mode does not hold during a power cycle. It will still show as turned on in the menu but it just does not record varispeed until you toggle it on and off. As a result, a good portion of our shots that we intended to shoot highspeed recorded at regular speed.


Hi,

we had a similar issue with an XDCAM EX1. Every time we shut the camera off to economize battery life, we had to toggle the Varispeed on again and hassle through the whole menu, which was really annoying. Especially when switching the whole day between Varispeed and normal speed.

This should be assignable to a user button.

Jeff

[Brent J. Craig]

SF Geek, no 1080p on HD-SDI until we enable 1080p RGB recording.

I LIKE the use of the word 'until'. It implies that 1080p RGB is in the works and forthcoming!

That will fix a lot of TV workflows and double the potential market for the camera.

[laguun]

LCD plus HD-SDI works a charm in Build 15.

excellent - that removes the last reason to -not- order the lcd for our 2nd cam next week.

another question regarding 15/16 - will the redcode documentation be made on these or will it be a special NAB release?

[Brook Willard]

You mean for 4K 16:9 as well as 3K 16:9 and 2K 16:9 ... ?

I just want full 16:9 support through the post pipeline... so I don't have to explain to people why we're shooting 2:1 on a 16:9 camera.

Great news on the multiple outputs. Glad to have that reconfirmed. Waiting as patiently as possible... :)

[SF Geek]

What Brook said, and Crewpix.

Also, will one of the SDIs have the frame only, or will there only be the frame with lookaround? What I'm getting at is being able to record the 720 tap.

[R. Gonzales]

I LIKE the use of the word 'until'. It implies that 1080p RGB is in the works and forthcoming!

That will fix a lot of TV workflows and double the potential market for the camera.

OH Yeah!!!

Method

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jim, LCD plus HD-SDI works a charm in Build 15.

Emery, send me a P.M about 3. and 5. I'd like to understand what happened specifically. The others yes, addressed in 14 series.

SF Geek, no 1080p on HD-SDI until we enable 1080p RGB recording. There have been multiple posts about this, so no change.

Stuart,

Will 15 let me have EVF + LCD + HD-SDI ALL at the same time - or do I have to choose EVF or LCD + HD-SDI?

What I really want to know is if I can get LCD + EVF at the same time.

[Brook Willard]

Since the EVF and HD-SDI are the same resolution, I'd imagine it's all three at once. Anything less would be very unfortunate.

[Jannard]

Stuart,

Will 15 let me have EVF + LCD + HD-SDI ALL at the same time - or do I have to choose EVF or LCD + HD-SDI?

What I really want to know is if I can get LCD + EVF at the same time.

Yes to what you want... everything is hot. This is the primary reason we are releasing this build now.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

What about all four? EVF+LCD+HDMI+HD-SDI? It's a video village dream!

[SF Geek]

Once again, will we be able to switch between a recordable image and a monitor image? One clean with nothing outside the frame and one with lookaround and assists and whatever? Perhaps one with embedded timecode?

[Stuart English]

What about all four? EVF+LCD+HDMI+HD-SDI? It's a video village dream!

Yes, subject to HDMI and HD-SDI both being 1280 x 720p. These two outputs share a common signal source which can be either 1280 x 720 or 1280 x 848. However, when its in 1280 x 848 mode, the HD-SDI chipset says *!*!* and refuses to pass that signal, so only the HDMI output is active in practice.

[david farland]

.......no 1080p on HD-SDI until we enable 1080p RGB recording.......

Stuart,
Understand you have coupled 1080p record/monitor but I'm concerned with 1080p monitoring at this stage.

What's the estimated build date on 1080p monitoring?

Regarding 1080p recording, was this where Jim said he didn't know why people wanted it onboard, but he would create a separate build for this but it wasn't a priority?

Dave,

[Joel Kaye]

Yes, subject to HDMI and HD-SDI both being 1280 x 720p. These two outputs share a common signal source which can be either 1280 x 720 or 1280 x 848. However, when its in 1280 x 848 mode, the HD-SDI chipset says *!*!* and refuses to pass that signal, so only the HDMI output is active in practice.

So EVF/LCD and HDMI at 1280x848 should work, right?

[Mark L. Pederson]

Yes to what you want... everything is hot. This is the primary reason we are releasing this build now.

Jim

Thanks Jim. You the man!

[Jason Ing]

Yes to what you want... everything is hot. This is the primary reason we are releasing this build now.

Jim

brilliant. split it up and give what we can use now and the rest a little later after some good qc.

[Shawn Nelson]

Yes, subject to HDMI and HD-SDI both being 1280 x 720p. These two outputs share a common signal source which can be either 1280 x 720 or 1280 x 848. However, when its in 1280 x 848 mode, the HD-SDI chipset says *!*!* and refuses to pass that signal, so only the HDMI output is active in practice.

Is that a temporary thing or will we always be incapable of getting both the HDMI 1280x848 + HDSDI?

If it's a permanent thing, what are the odds of getting some more information on the HD-SDI monitor?

[Steve Freebairn]

Yes, subject to HDMI and HD-SDI both being 1280 x 720p. These two outputs share a common signal source which can be either 1280 x 720 or 1280 x 848. However, when its in 1280 x 848 mode, the HD-SDI chipset says *!*!* and refuses to pass that signal, so only the HDMI output is active in practice.

What if the monitor supports 1280x1024, will HDMI work still? or does the monitor specifically have to support 1280x848?

Also, while we're talking about 16x9 and audio, will Redcine be able to export audio any time soon? It would be great if it could. Also, will we be able to "make quicktimes" from Redcine and have them keep the one light color correction and audio? How many months do we have to wait for PC proxy playback?

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Multiple-outputs...that's awesome!

[Denis Buhot]

[QUOTE=Jannard;171314]Good news is that Build 15 Beta will be released this week. It is kick-ass. All outputs work and tons of new features and improvements.

But... not a hint at a "sleep-mode" feature...How can I use a camera in the field with no "sleep-mode"... Big deal ? Or could it be that the feature wouldn't substantially affect the power consumption ?

[Jannard]

[QUOTE=Jannard;171314]Good news is that Build 15 Beta will be released this week. It is kick-ass. All outputs work and tons of new features and improvements.

But... not a hint at a "sleep-mode" feature...How can I use a camera in the field with no "sleep-mode"... Big deal ? Or could it be that the feature wouldn't substantially affect the power consumption ?

buhot... why don't you just wait until that feature is enabled. Shoot something else in the meantime if that is a feature you just cannot live without. There are plenty of options.

Jim

[Denis Buhot]

[QUOTE=buhot;171901]

buhot... why don't you just wait until that feature is enabled. Shoot something else in the meantime if that is a feature you just cannot live without. There are plenty of options.

Jim


Ok, no way I mean to underestimate what you Red people have already achieved, nor stand on the "never happy" side. It's just that the feature seems so simple in comparison with all the rest... AND, when it comes to shooting something else that doesn't require a sleep mode : I ONLY shoot wildlife, and wildlife does require it, and so does most of the eng style shooting when power supply is a limitation...Do you suggest I should consider gunning my sister-in-law in the meantime... ? I'm REALLY contemplating it, at times... Besides, I don't have my red yet, and I find it hard to think of shooting anything at all that will not finally look like a red image.. just a waste :biggrin:

[Michael Moreno]

jim can you tell me the status of the red ram solid state flash drive

since you answered status on everything else:biggrin:

really curious

please and thank you

[Jannard]

jim can you tell me the status of the red ram solid state flash drive

since you answered status on everything else:biggrin:

really curious

please and thank you

Prototypes are being used now (I have one)... not too far off. They seem to work great.

Jim

[Stuart English]

What if the monitor supports 1280x1024, will HDMI work still? or does the monitor specifically have to support 1280x848?

Yes, that should work fine - but test, some very cheap P.C monitors won't...

[Jannard]

Stuart is up late!

Jim

[Deanan]

Did Brent mention 24/7 support? :)

[Axel Mertes]

Quote:
What if the monitor supports 1280x1024, will HDMI work still? or does the monitor specifically have to support 1280x848?

Yes, that should work fine - but test, some very cheap P.C monitors won't...


Stuart,

as both HDMI, HD-SDI and EVF share the same signal source:

Is it technically possible for you guys to pattern the signal alternatively 1:1 on a larger output signal path for HD-SDI, solving many problems at once?

Imagine the following:

Signal internally 1280x848y

EVF -> Full internal signal
HDMI -> Full internal signal
HD-SDI -> 720p center-cropped (is that so much witch work?)
HD-SDI -> 1080p centered (black frame around) at full 1280x848y including menu area.

On most sets I have a 1920x1200y screen with me anyway, sometimes at least a 1600x1200y. So we use either the HDMI to DVI converter cable and go straight into the monitor, or we use a BMD HD Link to convert from HD-SDI to DVI and go from there...

Just a thought.

One more question:

What about a native 1:1 pixel zoom for focussing?
The current double zoom isn't always helpful and the 1:1 zoom would be much clearer to judge from. Maybe you can have a quick deBayer running native on just the zoom window resolution, it must not be perfect, just for adjustment.

We could cycle the zoom modes with the "2" key, or preset the preferred zoom in a menu.

Cheers,
Axel

[Mark Toia]

it's all getting easier and easier ever time I log on....:greedy:

Run forest run!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Did Brent mention 24/7 support? :)
I hear Deanan has been writing code while he is in the shower ...

[Axel Mertes]

I hear Deanan has been writing code while he is in the shower ...

Thats absolutely normal for coders. You do it in the brain, like playing chess without a board. Best times in shower, on toilet or other really relaxing moments (ehemm...) :)

Studied computer science myself, so I know that from ground up since I was 12 or so...

Coders do it even when the dream!

Cheers,
Axel

PS: Got me a while to get rid of the syndrom. Now I am awake day and night to read the RED forum to not get reminded off this anymore.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I am curious about something: I think it's nice that build 15 will be out in a few days, but what about 16?

I am wondering if we will see build 16 before NAB.

Can I get an answer to this please? I am assuming we will since NAB is over a month away.

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

Thats absolutely normal for coders. You do it in the brain, like playing chess without a board. Best times in shower, on toilet or other really relaxing moments (ehemm...) :)

Studied computer science myself, so I know that from ground up since I was 12 or so...

Coders do it even when the dream!

Cheers,
Axel

PS: Got me a while to get rid of the syndrom. Now I am awake day and night to read the RED forum to not get reminded off this anymore.

Well ... I actually head that Jarred built him a panel that opens in his shower with a waterproof keyboard.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Build 16 presentation at NAB for sure.

It could be the first Jokers Card for RED at NAB 2008.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Holding off build 16 until NAB is one hell of a delay. And personally I think it would have more clout if it were the USERS talking about how wonderful build 16 is rather than just RED.
Jay

[Deanan]

We're not holding off a build until NAB. Build 16 will get released as soon as it's ready.

[Barry Green]

What about a native 1:1 pixel zoom for focussing?
The current double zoom isn't always helpful and the 1:1 zoom would be much clearer to judge from. Maybe you can have a quick deBayer running native on just the zoom window resolution, it must not be perfect, just for adjustment.

We could cycle the zoom modes with the "2" key, or preset the preferred zoom in a menu.

Okay, how about this -- how about no deBayer at all? A black and white 1280x720 patch ripped straight from the chip and put out pixel-for-pixel on the HD-SDI display? In black 'n' white. That would rock. Especially if you could mix in a "focus in red" feature, so the only thing that shows up in color at all is high-frequency detail.

[P Andersson]

Okay, how about this -- how about no deBayer at all? A black and white 1280x720 patch ripped straight from the chip and put out pixel-for-pixel on the HD-SDI display? In black 'n' white. That would rock. Especially if you could mix in a "focus in red" feature, so the only thing that shows up in color at all is high-frequency detail.

sounds awesome

[Jannard]

I am curious about something: I think it's nice that build 15 will be out in a few days, but what about 16?

I am wondering if we will see build 16 before NAB.

Can I get an answer to this please? I am assuming we will since NAB is over a month away.

Jay

Our goal (you know how that goes) is Build 16 in 3 weeks or so. Plenty of time before NAB.

Jim

[Gunleik Groven]

Okay, how about this -- how about no deBayer at all? A black and white 1280x720 patch ripped straight from the chip and put out pixel-for-pixel on the HD-SDI display? In black 'n' white. That would rock. Especially if you could mix in a "focus in red" feature, so the only thing that shows up in color at all is high-frequency detail.

I think I already subscribe to this idea :)

G

[Jay A. Kelley]

Our goal (you know how that goes) is Build 16 in 2 or 3 weeks. Plenty of time before NAB.

Jim

Yeah... I know how that is.

"Always late but worth the wait" Right?

Jim will you be at NAB? I'd like the chance to meet you face to face, shake hands, and speak as men do.

:)

Jay

[Andrew Madu]

Our goal (you know how that goes) is Build 16 in 2 or 3 weeks.

Top Man!

[Jannard]

Yeah... I know how that is.

"Always late but worth the wait" Right?

Jim will you be at NAB? I'd like the chance to meet you face to face.

:)

Jay

Absolutely... wouldn't miss this one for anything. Look forward to meeting you.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim

I know how you like wildlife.. So I thought I would share this shot from my RED with you. It was shot using a 500mm mirror lens.

I felt it was best to keep a "respectful distance"

Sorry I have not shared more, but I am ashamed to say most of my RED's work has been "online corporate" I'd be happy to show it to you if you want.. But it is what it is.

Jay

[Hrvoje Simic]

Daamit Jay...you beat me to it with the theme.
Nice one, though. :-)

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Jay : i have seen so many Lions in different Zoos but this one is really beautifull :whistling:

[Rainer Fritz]

I have a wish for build 16:
Measuring right the signal. So the signal what is shown on the outputs is not what you really recording, I know. White is clipping before it does on the recorded image and so on. But will there a possibility to get a measure result via luma histogram or waveform monitor which show me the reality or at least very close the reality? And if its possible in a bigger window, specially over the monitoring outputs switchable... ?

Storing of Setups... on SD Card for example would be also nice...

regards
rainer

[DSPographer]

Okay, how about this -- how about no deBayer at all? A black and white 1280x720 patch ripped straight from the chip and put out pixel-for-pixel on the HD-SDI display? In black 'n' white. That would rock. Especially if you could mix in a "focus in red" feature, so the only thing that shows up in color at all is high-frequency detail.

If you mean to put out the bayer array data directly as black and white that would look strange. Grays might be OK but green patches look like a checkerboard and blue and red patches look like a fairly widely spaced pattern. I don't think it would be possible to tell if the image was sharp with that so you would be completely relying on the red detail overlay for focus but maybe i'm wrong.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hmm... I think it would work somewhat, but would still need some filtering. We would be talking about the luminance value recorded by each photosite or pixel, not the chroma. But I don't think the R, G and B photosites all see luminosity with the same sensitivity, hence why some sort of bayer filtering would still be necessary.

[Axel Mertes]

Okay, how about this -- how about no deBayer at all? A black and white 1280x720 patch ripped straight from the chip and put out pixel-for-pixel on the HD-SDI display? In black 'n' white. That would rock. Especially if you could mix in a "focus in red" feature, so the only thing that shows up in color at all is high-frequency detail.

Why not, a further option...

I am in to that ideas.

But a very simple linear deBayer of the 1024x600y window shown in the LCD should be working well I think. But 1:1 zoom is a highly demanded feature wish.

Jim, Jarred, Stuart, are you hearing us?

Axel

[Axel Mertes]

Hmm... I think it would work somewhat, but would still need some filtering. We would be talking about the luminance value recorded by each photosite or pixel, not the chroma. But I don't think the R, G and B photosites all see luminosity with the same sensitivity, hence why some sort of bayer filtering would still be necessary.

Good point.

So I hold up the idea:

A simple deBayer, linear interpolation of missing color values, just enough to judge on the sharpness of what we see in a 1:1 zoom.

Axel

[Adrian T.]

I have a wish for build 16:
Measuring right the signal. So the signal what is shown on the outputs is not what you really recording, I know. White is clipping before it does on the recorded image and so on. But will there a possibility to get a measure result via luma histogram or waveform monitor which show me the reality or at least very close the reality?

I'm asking for that for ages (and I'm not alone).

Histograms and traffic lights don't mean anything if they're not based on RAW data. We need to know when the RAW data clips, not when the RGB preview clips. It's up to post to translate the RAW data into something else.

Please! :love:

(Rainer, I think this is also what you meant with your post :wink:)

[Brent J. Craig]

Histograms and traffic lights don't mean anything if they're not based on RAW data. We need to know when the RAW data clips, not when the RGB preview clips.

I asked this several weeks ago and did not get a reply. Are you saying that the histograms, false color and traffic lights are reading the Rec709 output signal and not the Raw data?!?

[Adrian T.]

I asked this several weeks ago and did not get a reply. Are you saying that the histograms, false color and traffic lights are reading the Rec709 output signal and not the Raw data?!?

Yup. Doesn't seem right, does it?

[Emery Wells]

I'm asking for that for ages (and I'm not alone).

Histograms and traffic lights don't mean anything if they're not based on RAW data. We need to know when the RAW data clips, not when the RGB preview clips. It's up to post to translate the RAW data into something else.

Please! :love:

(Rainer, I think this is also what you meant with your post :wink:)

I concur. While we're no the topic of fixing the meters, how about rethinking the focus assist? I think everyone can agree that the visualization model for Graemes focus assist has not turned out to be all that useable. I don't know of anyone that in fact uses it. Im happy with the current visualization model in other displays which contours objects in focus with a red line. Its intuitive and it works.

[Mark Pedersen]

Our goal (you know how that goes) is Build 16 in 3 weeks or so. Plenty of time before NAB.

Jim

Oh you guys are on a roll!! GO team GO!

Very happy to see this happening guys. Awesome work! Just in time for my camera to ship. You guys told me months and months ago my camera would be full "feature enabled" and it looks like you've made it happen.

Congrats to everyone at Red!

And thank you!!

M

[Rainer Fritz]

I'm asking for that for ages (and I'm not alone).

Histograms and traffic lights don't mean anything if they're not based on RAW data. We need to know when the RAW data clips, not when the RGB preview clips. It's up to post to translate the RAW data into something else.

Please! :love:

(Rainer, I think this is also what you meant with your post :wink:)

As you say big lebowski... Jim... please... the SI-2k from Silicon Imaging can handle this...

And one thing what they also deliver is the possibility to put in all SATA devices so I can put in this SSD drives:

http://www.hama.de/portal/articleId*158754/action*2563/

60MB/s read 46MB/s write speed @ 580 Euros

regards

[Pawel Achtel]

My wish for build 16 is ability to switch the camera on/off remotely. Usually I am not quick enough to open the housing underwater, press momentary power and close it before water gets in... :ohmy:
Assigning some pins on some connectors for remote power on/off would rock my boat...

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[Deanan]

The best solution for now is to rig up a solenoid to push the power button.

[laguun]

As you say big lebowski... Jim... please... the SI-2k from Silicon Imaging can handle this...

yeah, the raw histos are useful.



And one thing what they also deliver is the possibility to put in all SATA devices so I can put in this SSD drives:
http://www.hama.de/portal/articleId*158754/action*2563/
60MB/s read 46MB/s write speed @ 580 Euros
regards
interesting device - and yes, a general sata interface would be great for many applications, also as 500$ model as the c/f adapter.

[Axel Mertes]

Laguun,

buy no CF module and you got what you were asking for...

Axel

[Axel Mertes]

As you say big lebowski... Jim... please... the SI-2k from Silicon Imaging can handle this...

And one thing what they also deliver is the possibility to put in all SATA devices so I can put in this SSD drives:

http://www.hama.de/portal/articleId*158754/action*2563/

60MB/s read 46MB/s write speed @ 580 Euros

regards

Rainer,

vorsicht, ich hab das Ding mal hier gehabt (wir haben für die ne Produktvisualisierung gemacht) und es war nicht so schnell wie es auf der Website angegeben wurde. Vielleicht haben die noch was optimiert, aber damals kamen wir über ca. 32-40 MB/s nicht hinaus (was für vieles schon reichen könnte).

Gruß,
Axel

[Stuart English]

vorsicht, ich hab das Ding mal hier gehabt (wir haben für die ne Produktvisualisierung gemacht) und es war nicht so schnell wie es auf der Website angegeben wurde. Vielleicht haben die noch was optimiert, aber damals kamen wir über ca. 32-40 MB/s nicht hinaus (was für vieles schon reichen könnte)

When we test memory devices we often find they don't sustain the bandwidth of their published specifications. Hence most are not suitable for use with the RED-ONE camera.

[cinepost35]

The best solution for now is to rig up a solenoid to push the power button.


What solonoid would you think would do the job? This has been an issue on crane shoots. Having to commit a camera to a position you can't get to during filming and needing to recycle the camera for the odd crash.

[Stuart English]

Are you saying that the histograms, false color and traffic lights are reading the Rec709 output signal and not the Raw data?!?

Yes - now I'll put my helmet on. :red_bandana: Theory is good, but just to say that using REC 709 rather than linear (RAW) data for metering has several advantages, including interpretation of exposure points via luma and RGB histograms, zebras and monitors. A similar comment about focus, the tools are working, so don't expect to see major changes in these areas.

Having said that, feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

[Axel Mertes]

Stuart,

I may summarize some really demanded wishes once more:

- RAW histograms as further option
- RAW overexposure ample as further option
- 1:1 zoom (possibly with visible window basic deBayer) for even better focussing
- Autogained B/W display in EVF/LCD with colored focus overlay (the camera man want to do framing when shooting, not colors, colors are done before or afterwards).

We don't want to see major changes, but additions :) - further options - enhanced choice of how WE like to work.

Cheers,
Axel

[woodman]

I agree, measuring RAW is a must.

My workaround is: use false color/histogtam and sweep trough the different ISO options to have an idea of what is actually being recorded.

I don't find any use at metering processed signal. I am always telling my customers that using an Astro at the red's hdsdi outpput is like using an SD wfm on an HD camera: you're measuring the downconverter, not the camera. This is useless, unless you go straight to TV without any color timing.

[Georg Misch]

Hi!

After doing some tests with two DP's over the weekend I have to say that there needs to be sme kind of metering for when the sensor clips. I believe this is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the highest dynamic range without the danger of clipping.

Georg

[Taylor Morrison]

Putting aside waveforms, histograms, etc. for a moment...is there a rough under and over exposure idea we can take into the field/set with us. For instance I new absolutely that when shooting good kodak 16mm stock I had 2 1/2 to 3 stops over my base exposure (using spot meter) before blowing out into white. As well I had 3 stops below t stop for shadows. Of course we could then fool all we wanted in film to tape but at least it was all there to begin with. For me... forget the histogram and let me know what is the under and over for the sensor. I'm getting new batteries for the spot meter and leaving the monitors at home (assuming I get my EVF!)

[Greg M]

Hi!

After doing some tests with two DP's over the weekend I have to say that there needs to be sme kind of metering for when the sensor clips. I believe this is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the highest dynamic range without the danger of clipping.

Georg

the zebras will tell you this info...I have no problems keeping the highlights from clipping.

[jbeale]

I'm curious- pretty much all DSLRs can record in both Raw and JPEG formats, and they do show histograms. Are they showing the RAW or JPEG histogram? I think they all show the JPEG histogram (that is, after white balance). You do a white balance and fill the screen with a white card, you see just one spike. If it was RAW you'd see three for the R,G,B channels at some other white point.

But as everyone is saying- it's obviously useful to have an option for your traffic light to show you the "true" (raw) clipping point. Or both! Say a half-circle light for REC709 clip, and color the full circle for RAW clip.

I don't know the internals, but I'm guessing this must be the easiest of all the requested features to actually implement. I don't think it requires much additional processing over what the camera must be doing already.

[Barry Green]

the zebras will tell you this info...I have no problems keeping the highlights from clipping.

No, the zebras will tell you when the processed REC 709 signal is clipping. Not when the sensor is clipping.

And there's a problem there anyway -- the zebras don't let you go to full 109. You can set the high zebra to 108, but not to 109, so you can have blown-out areas in your image with no indication that it's clipping! Set your zebras to the highest settings (105 and 108) and point a light into a white wall, and overexpose it, and look at what you get: you'll get a ring of zebras around the hot spot, with no zebras in the hot spot.

[Barry Green]

A similar comment about focus, the tools are working, so don't expect to see major changes in these areas.
This is profoundly disappointing. This is, perhaps, the most disappointing news I've heard come from the Red team yet. Many of us do not feel that "the tools are working" to the degree that we need.


Having said that, feedback and suggestions are always welcome.
We want raw monitoring for focus and exposure. We want pixel-accurate monitoring for focus, and we want accurate peaking that kicks in only when something is very crisply in focus at the 4k level. And we want to monitor what the sensor's doing, not some unrelated and practically arbitrary 709 gamma interpretation of what the sensor's doing.

I'm tempted to replace the words "want" with "need." Please reconsider.

[Chris Gearhart]

But don't you then have the clipping indication in that hot spot? You can also use the "traffic light" for RGB, or the luminance histogram, etc. etc. Am I being stupid here?

EDIT--oh, just reread to see the "sensor" and "raw" comments. .

[Barry Green]

But don't you then have the clipping indication in that hot spot?
There is no indication in the hot spot.


You can also use the "traffic light" for RGB, or the luminance histogram, etc. etc. Am I being stupid here?
Can't use any traffic lights, as I'm still waiting for my EVF to show up. :)

My HD-SDI monitor doesn't show any of that info.

[Chris Gearhart]

We want pixel-accurate monitoring for focus, and we want accurate peaking that kicks in only when something is very crisply in focus at the 4k level.

I dunno, I thought that way too, but I'm kinda liking the "analogue" effect of the peaking--similar to what one does by eye. It feels . . . more organic to me.

[Finner]

This is profoundly disappointing. This is, perhaps, the most disappointing news I've heard come from the Red team yet. Many of us do not feel that "the tools are working" to the degree that we need.


I have not seen hardly any people asking for the focus features you say "many" feel they need. It is only you and a small handful of others Barry that want this. For the large majority the current focus tools are working great and exceed those of most other high end cameras on the market.

[Barry Green]

I have not seen hardly any people asking for the focus features you say "many" feel they need. It is only you and a small handful of others Barry that want this. For the large majority the current focus tools are working great and exceed those of most other high end cameras on the market.

I'm not clamoring anymore, I've been shouted down enough. But whenever it gets raised, others do voice their wish for it too.

What I don't get is: if it's possible, why not do it? Who does it hurt, to give us this option?

Furthermore, if a 720p display is adequate to show all the detail you need, then why do we need 4K at all? Why not just go with 720? And, if 4K is necessary (specifically because it has more detail), why wouldn't you want to be able to see that to know that you've focused it adequately?

Anyway, I've said my take, I've said it's disappointing, I've said why I think it's necessary, but I'm not going to perpetuate some sort of campaign, so this is the last of it. Stuart says they're not gonna do it, then they're not gonna do it.

[Stuart English]

No, the zebras will tell you when the processed REC 709 signal is clipping. Not when the sensor is clipping.

And there's a problem there anyway -- the zebras don't let you go to full 109. You can set the high zebra to 108, but not to 109, so you can have blown-out areas in your image with no indication that it's clipping! Set your zebras to the highest settings (105 and 108) and point a light into a white wall, and overexpose it, and look at what you get: you'll get a ring of zebras around the hot spot, with no zebras in the hot spot.

As long as the REC709 clips first, then you have avoided sensor clip. As Graeme has explained before, that is a deliberate implementation on our part.

There may be a bug with regard to 109 not showing up, (noted, thanks for the feedback) but the likelyhood that a value of 109 is there and is not accompanied by values such a 108, 107, 106 etc is extremely low.

[Thom Steinhoff]

1:1 focusing is a big one. If it's a lot of CPU to ask for, I would be happy if it was even only available when the camera was not recording and when you hit record it switched back to 2x.

This would handle the vast majority of narrative users as we always confirm focus with the camera idle anyway.

ENG types wouldn't be happy but at least you get the rest of us off your backs!

My eyes do suck so I struggle with the LCD for critical work. The VF should be better but I would really like 1:1.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We want raw monitoring for focus and exposure. We want pixel-accurate monitoring for focus, and we want accurate peaking that kicks in only when something is very crisply in focus at the 4k level. And we want to monitor what the sensor's doing, not some unrelated and practically arbitrary 709 gamma interpretation of what the sensor's doing.

I agree on the 1:1 zoom (and a way to pan the zoomed area or specify that area) is a must. This is going to be especially critical for users who intend to use still lens mounts / SLR lenses with their cameras. There is just no other way to hit accurate focus in a consistent manner when many such lenses only have a 5-degree barrel turn to focus between 5ft and 30ft.

However, other monitoring isn't that simple to do with RAW data, not as far as I'm aware. Like I said above, there would probably be a need for some sort of bayer filtering to see a meaningful 1:1 monochrome (luminance) image on a 1:1 pixel zoom. To see clipping and other such image characteristics, the RAW data needs to be processed into some color space and some sort of curve applied. In this case RED is using REC 709. Will we have more options once the camera allows us to upload our own LUTs? By just monitoring linear RAW data, I think the only thing that can be checked for is individual photosites that are entirely over-loaded. And that could potentially be displayed via histogram. For over-exposed photosites, would it even be possible to overlay zebras on a processed image and have them based off of RAW values?

I'm hoping someone can tell me I'm completely wrong about this because I would like all these features too. But there are limits to what can be processed in-camera and how that data can be presented to those operating the camera.

[Joel Kaye]

I have not seen hardly any people asking for the focus features you say "many" feel they need. It is only you and a small handful of others Barry that want this. For the large majority the current focus tools are working great and exceed those of most other high end cameras on the market.

Then you haven't been watching. There are at least as many people on these boards concerned about focus assist as the Infrared Problem for instance. Face it, a few people here do the talking for a lot of lurkers when it comes to all this stuff... whether it be crummy parts in the production pack or whatever.

Just about EVERYONE wants 1:1 focusing.

Even Gibby would like to see it. And anyone who's ever used the EX1 focusing system wants it. The fact is RED is getting it's ass handed to it by lower end cameras when it comes to focusing tools. This is a digital camera, not a film camera. It needs digital focusing aids.

You're the ONLY person other than Stuart I've ever seen make this assertion the focus tools are OK in all my time traveling the RED boards. But I don't read everything... feel free to point to anyone else that thinks having a 1:1 focus preview would be a waste of time.

Additionally, I don't think I've seen anyone say they actually LOVE the current focus overlay/assist. I've seen dozens of people on other boards say they love the JVC and Sony focus assists. That's the cold, hard truth. And somebody over at RED needs to smell the coffee.

I finally got to use the RED focus overlay this weekend on many types of scenes. I left it on 100% of the time and adjusted it heavily to see if I could get it to work for me. I constantly found myself just focusing off the LCD instead. The focus overlay simply doesn't work very well. I can think of a few things that would make it better, but the whole idea is so wrong I don't want RED wasting time working on it. Don't throw good money after bad. It's a bad idea. Replace it with the EX1 style focus assist.

They also need 1:1... you could use that to set up your lenses perfectly if nothing else. I know you're a fan of perfectly set up lenses.

Operators focus more than anything else. Period. Those tools have to be the best.

[Joel Kaye]

As long as the REC709 clips first, then you have avoided sensor clip. As Graeme has explained before, that is a deliberate implementation on our part.

OK, that makes sense to me. But I would like a way to brighten a dark scene to see it better on a monitor (in the way that raising the ISO does currently) but WITHOUT changing the ISO that the exposure monitors are reading.

I really like all the exposure tools you guys have put in. I think getting to them is not supereasy at the moment.

Here's my suggestion for really making the interface usable for many different types of operators.

*Make the user preset buttons behave like car stereo buttons. Hold a button in for 4 seconds and have it memorize the current screen display. Allow those settings to be saved to SD card in XML.

I think you could alternatively get this functionality by assigning an on/off status to all the possible screen display items and have users just edit an XML file, stick it on the SD card and have the camera load those settings. Obviously there are things like waveform monitors where only one type could appear at a time.

The key is all 5 user buttons should really be capable of altering the entire display as opposed to toggling one item. Then you wouldn't have to read everyone's mind and guess how they want to operate. Everyone would set up their own style, save it to the SD card and put in into any RED they are operating. Kewl.

I'd like to see False Color and a histogram at the same time. I like that Zebras appear even when False Color is on. I definitely want False Color on a button to I can toggle it quickly. It's a great exposure aid.

[Finner]

Operators focus more than anything else. Period. Those tools have to be the best.

Get a focus puller and get him to bring a $5 tape measure. Problem solved.

As much as some people want this camera to be a one man band ENG camera it simply is not. It's "Red digital CINEMA", not "Red digital ENG". Cinema procedure requires at least 1 camera assistant to work most effectively and proficiently, a red needs a camera assistant. Gibby has even stated many times that the red is not an ENG camera and that it fits more with a EFP or Cine work style. EFP requires some sort of crew even if it is just small and minimal. The first person on the list for that crew should be a focus puller with hopefully enough experience in other areas that they can help grip/elec on the projects. It also allows the DP/Op to light while the focus puller takes care of getting the camera all set up and ready saving lots of time. This camera is not a little prosumer cam and requires different procedures and crew to work smoothly.

If a camera assistant does not fit in the budget of work people do then a red camera would be a poor choice for that level of production work.

[Brent J. Craig]

As long as the REC709 clips first, then you have avoided sensor clip. As Graeme has explained before, that is a deliberate implementation on our part...

That's great, but many of us don't want a professional camera to hold our hand. Being able to confidently put something 'right on the edge' without going over is very important.

[Axel Mertes]

OK, that makes sense to me. But I would like a way to brighten a dark scene to see it better on a monitor (in the way that raising the ISO does currently) but WITHOUT changing the ISO that the exposure monitors are reading.

I really like all the exposure tools you guys have put in. I think getting to them is not supereasy at the moment.

Here's my suggestion for really making the interface usable for many different types of operators.

*Make the user preset buttons behave like car stereo buttons. Hold a button in for 4 seconds and have it memorize the current screen display. Allow those settings to be saved to SD card in XML.

I think you could alternatively get this functionality by assigning an on/off status to all the possible screen display items and have users just edit an XML file, stick it on the SD card and have the camera load those settings. Obviously there are things like waveform monitors where only one type could appear at a time.

The key is all 5 user buttons should really be capable of altering the entire display as opposed to toggling one item. Then you wouldn't have to read everyone's mind and guess how they want to operate. Everyone would set up their own style, save it to the SD card and put in into any RED they are operating. Kewl.

I'd like to see False Color and a histogram at the same time. I like that Zebras appear even when False Color is on. I definitely want False Color on a button to I can toggle it quickly. It's a great exposure aid.


That was the reason I was asking for an autogain B/W image!

How does the DOP & AC work?

First they adjust exposure, create the color & look they like (or the director wants them to like...).

Then they just want to frame the image, during the shoot. For that goal its much more wise to use an pure frame by frame autogained image, best in black & white to maximize contrast.

On a grayscale image you can then add - if wanted - a JVC style color focus assist overlay.

Maybe the curve should be adjustable to increase that contrast during a shoot to help the DOP&AC to get the take how they want it.

I rarely see someone adjusting iris during a shoot, but focus and framing is the story, 99.9% of the time.

A color "prediction" of the results, including a histogram "prediction" isn't really helpful except for the video village with the director or customers.

I also do not agree that its good exposure if the REC709 amples don't switch on, if we have still more headroom left that we can not judge about. As a post production guy I'd say I want 95%+ used exposure range of the sensor capabilities, because there is our sensor lattidue and 11.x+ f-stops we all want to process in post. That all means nothing else than: RAW histogram, RAW amples. We want full sensor control, thats it.

If we wanted a REC709 only camera, there are soooo many other options, honestly.

I think RED should reconsider some recent statements, beside all the loved ones we cite every now and there when meeting up with non-REDish people to convince them :)

Now convince us, or get convinced yourself, by the users.

Cheers,
Axel

[Joel Kaye]

Get a focus puller and get him to bring a $5 tape measure. Problem solved.

I think you're missing my point. This isn't about operating alone.

I still want to verify he's nailing it. That's what 1:1 and focus assist do. Especially if you can view them in playback or on a paused frame. That's a big part of what we're talking about here.

1:1 is faster and more accurate than tape. Raise a glass to tape.

[Axel Mertes]

Get a focus puller and get him to bring a $5 tape measure. Problem solved.

[snip].


OK, go ahead an shoot the bald eagle or the lions, maybe from a little be closer, with stranger DOF.

Don't forget to have some reserve AC's for those who got eaten...

Axel

[jbeale]

Just my thoughts, which may or may not be welcome.

My background is physics and engineering. There are a lot of very smart people in both fields. Sometimes (ok, often) we fall a little bit in love with our own theories & designs. Once having formed that special relationship, we tend to give short shrift to proposed alternatives, excellent though they may be.

Of course, in engineering there are also economic and market realities to factor in. I often hear "better is the enemy of good enough" when feature creep is stalling delivery of a product.

The Red team has an impressive record so far. My suspicion is that they will deliver all (practical & feasible) requested features eventually. They may be a bit tired of adding, or even promising, new items at this particular moment in the design cycle.

Just my $0.02

[Finner]

OK, go ahead an shoot the bald eagle or the lions, maybe from a little be closer, with stranger DOF.

Don't forget to have some reserve AC's for those who got eaten...

Axel

If you can not judge if you are getting accurate focus with the shallow DOF on the long lenses needed in those situations then I would suggest finding another line of work.

As for eaten AC's on a commercial years ago I pulled focus on a running cougar that instead of running to the trainer with meat decided the camera, Op and I were more interesting. I almost pissed myself that day as he sniffed my ears.

[Joel Kaye]

Then they just want to frame the image, during the shoot. For that goal its much more wise to use an pure frame by frame autogained image, best in black & white to maximize contrast.

On a grayscale image you can then add - if wanted - a JVC style color focus assist overlay.

Good idea. Maybe that's why I gravitate to focus assist style shooting when I can. I really don't need a color display... but it's comforting to check.

I would agree focus and framing are constant and never ending, which is why I think putting resources into making focus easier is the smart thing to do. To sit here and act like focus is "done" is just ridiculous. That would be on my list of "never done". Jim often likes to repeat (and repeat) that the camera is under constant development... but now we find out the ONE thing we do more than anything else is "done". I'm calling bulls$%t on that one.

[Axel Mertes]

Lets face it:

Many of us don't have their EVFs yet.

Some may not be able to have them at all.

Sometimes the LCD is better option (e.g. on a steadycam).

So why is "wanting 1:1 zoom" something that is stalling the delivery of the product?

The product is delivered anyway, with a certain level of firmware functionality. We just want to get an apparent problem fixed or optimized, that some of us encounter. Hey, even some of those who have already the EVF ask for this!

I think we should all calm down now, let RED SWAT read those few wishes we presented, and consider the workload to implement the one or the other at some point.

All I know is that I've wasted a lot of time in my life with beta testing diverse products by discussions with the developers why "this" or "that" should be implemented. The discussions had often been taken more of the developers time than the implementation (nor args towards RED here).

So I think its better to calm down now and let them do their job, instead of forcing them to justify some words that have been said for whatever reasons.

We all learned one thing:

Everything is about to change, always!

Remember the metric lenses and you know the whole story.


Cheers,
Axel

[Joel Kaye]

They may be a bit tired of adding, or even promising, new items at this particular moment in the design cycle.

I think we all want them to squash bugs first. It would be interesting to see their list of priorities and how they are delegated. They've got growing pains.

For instance - should they be focusing on image quality right now? Or is it good enough? Or camera functionality - or is it good enough? Or Post workflow - or is it good enough? Or hardware? Or do they need enough people to work on all of those at the same time?

[Axel Mertes]

If you can not judge if you are getting accurate focus with the shallow DOF on the long lenses needed in those situations then I would suggest finding another line of work.

As for eaten AC's on a commercial years ago I pulled focus on a running cougar that instead of running to the trainer with meat decided the camera, Op and I were more interesting. I almost pissed myself that day as he sniffed my ears.


Finner, that was meant with irony involved, should have been more apparent...

I feel with you, regarding the cougar...

Axel

[Stuart English]

To sit here and act like focus is "done" is just ridiculous. ... I'm calling bulls$%t on that one.

To be clear, we have never said that we are done. But I will comment if its stated that you can't properly focus or expose on the camera, because these are not true statements. So take my verbal feedback that we don't intend to make major changes in these areas in this context, not that we a resting on our laurels.. when have we ever done that?

[Joel Kaye]

To be clear, we have never said that we are done. But I will comment if its stated that you can't properly focus or expose on the camera, because these are not true statements. So take my verbal feedback that we don't intend to make major changes in these areas in this context, not that we a resting on our laurels.. when have we ever done that?

That's cool. And I personally haven't said you can't focus the camera. As Finner accurately says, tape measures are available. In fact, I was pretty impressed with the LCD indoors. In bright light I found it a bit rough... but probably as good as any other LCD I've seen.

I'm excited about this camera. I really felt for the first time in a long time this weekend when I finally got to shoot - "Ok, I'm done looking for a new camera - this is the one. I'd still like her to behave a little nicer and lose a few pounds but I'm not kicking her out."

So - I'll keep tossing out ideas to make it work faster, better... and hopefully some will be achievable. I know technically some stuff is really tough to do. I think if you told us when things were technically tough we'd understand that. But if you just think ideas are not worth pursuing then I think that's where we're obligated to fight for our point of view.

If it's damn near impossible to meter raw sensor data for exposure then I think we'd go OK... it would be nice, but if it ain't gonna happen then let's move on.

[Barry Green]

There may be a bug with regard to 109 not showing up, (noted, thanks for the feedback) but the likelyhood that a value of 109 is there and is not accompanied by values such a 108, 107, 106 etc is extremely low.
I used the zebras in that manner to basically alert me whenever anything is getting near clipping, in an attempt to "expose to the right". The intention is to know when anything exceeds the 105 level, but the current implementation doesn't give you the option of setting up for "anything above 105", for example, because anything above 108 won't show. It makes it a little odd to roll exposure through the zebras because if you had a chunk of white that was overexposed, you'll only see the zebras on the rim of it, not on the big surface of it. As you iris up or down, that band of zebras will move across the white surface. Just seems like it should be possible to configure it to zebra out anything that's 105+.

[Barry Green]

As long as the REC709 clips first, then you have avoided sensor clip. As Graeme has explained before, that is a deliberate implementation on our part.
Okay, and good to know, but -- is this only relevant if your ISO is set to 320? As you ratchet up the ISO, the Rec709 clips earlier, even when the raw data is perhaps nowhere near clipping, correct?

Perhaps not a big deal, as I'll probably stick with 320 at all times. Do you know how much leeway we have from Rec709 clip to sensor clip? Is it right on the threshold, or is there a half-stop of leeway? Do 105-109 zebras mean a red light with a screeching halt, or just a yellow light and there's still some flexibility to go?

[Maz Mawlawi]

Enough with this crap of "get a great AC and tape measure and problem solved"...what the heck is that? It's like saying "let's ignore all the technology we have today to more accurately judge focus and rely on tape measuring"...we don't need anything else....just like we won't ever need more than 640K of RAM............. Aslo the RED is a Digital Cinema camera but you seem to forget that it was announced in forums like the DVX user and initially made it sound like it was a camera that will not only be design for 35mm cinema people but also for other kind of independent shooters. I don't see how it would hurt anyone who just wants to use a $5 tape to have also have more tools for focusing as well. If the technology is available (and it is!!) to help focus more accurately without the constant need of that "great Focus puller" then there is no reason not to have it implemented on the RED. Other lower end cams do it, it's only fair to expect the RED One to have similar or better focusing tools!

[Joel Kaye]

Perhaps not a big deal, as I'll probably stick with 320 at all times. Do you know how much leeway we have from Rec709 clip to sensor clip? Is it right on the threshold, or is there a half-stop of leeway?

I need to do a lot more exposure testing but with the exposure information changing along with the ISO I don't understand how that can possibly work right. If I put in ISO100 and nothing's clipping and I get home and have clipped data then the exposure system has failed me. That shouldn't be possible.

[Barry Green]

I need to do a lot more exposure testing but with the exposure information changing along with the ISO I don't understand how that can possibly work right. If I put in ISO100 and nothing's clipping and I get home and have clipped data then the exposure system has failed me. That shouldn't be possible.
Well, no, I'm saying that it might be possible to get the Rec709 to show that there's clipping but the recorded data would not be clipping. Not the other way around.

The idea would be that yes, the raw data was recorded raw and successfully, but then it is your intention to boost the gain in post, and after boosting the gain up to that level you'd force the system into overexposure. That would apply to going to ISO faster than 320, not slower.

So it actually does make sense from that aspect, which is that it's letting you know that the *processed* footage will clip, even though the raw footage doesn't. But by changing the ISO, you're telling the system you intend to implement that change, so it has to take that into account.

If the Rec709 didn't "chase" the ISO then you'd have no way of knowing what your final product would look like (even though the ISO setting is optional and you could choose to ignore it, but the lights and iris were set with a certain ISO in mind). So the Rec709 has to adjust its clip and crush points based on the ISO. Yes? Otherwise your shots won't work after you run 'em through redcine.

[Dj Joofa]

If I put in ISO100 and nothing's clipping and I get home and have clipped data then the exposure system has failed me. That shouldn't be possible.

Well, no, I'm saying that it might be possible to get the Rec709 to show that there's clipping but the recorded data would not be clipping. Not the other way around.



But the other way around can happen. My understanding is like this, but I could be wrong. When you change the ISO from 320 to 100 and nothing else (no metering change yet), the signal recorded is still 320, but on the LCD it gets darkened to reflect the change to ISO 100. Now you do metering based upon the 100, and say, you open the aperture wider to bring the LCD image back to normal, which will have a corresponding effect of increasing the recorded signal. So it is possible that by the time the LCD image starts looking normal (no clipping), the recorded signal has increased so much that it clipped.

Did I make any mistake anywhere?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Here's why I think 1:1 pixel zoom for focus would be extremely useful...

OK, you need to set focus on the talent's eyes. You've pulled your tape and her peepers are at 8ft. Now let's turn the focus ring on our lens...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/535_1205267736.jpg

[Joel Kaye]

(even though the ISO setting is optional and you could choose to ignore it, but the lights and iris were set with a certain ISO in mind). So the Rec709 has to adjust its clip and crush points based on the ISO. Yes? Otherwise your shots won't work after you run 'em through redcine.

I think I'd like the option of choosing that. On set I need to know exactly what I'm REALLY recording and really blowing out. Back at the ranch I can color correct it however. I sorta think ISO is irrelevant. I don't know why it's in there now that I think about it. I suppose you could calibrate a light meter to it.

But really - we want to expose to the right in most/all situations to maximize our data, right? Sometimes that means we'll purposefully let stuff blow out because the scene has a wide light range and what we need properly exposed is down in the shadows... so what's REALLY blowing out? For real.

I don't care about ISO. Whatever, it's just metadata. Probably just confuses a discussion like this.

[Finner]

Enough with this crap of "get a great AC and tape measure and problem solved"...what the heck is that? It's like saying "let's ignore all the technology we have today to more accurately judge focus and rely on tape measuring"...we don't need anything else....just like we won't ever need more than 640K of RAM............. Aslo the RED is a Digital Cinema camera but you seem to forget that it was announced in forums like the DVX user and initially made it sound like it was a camera that will not only be design for 35mm cinema people but also for other kind of independent shooters. I don't see how it would hurt anyone who just wants to use a $5 tape to have also have more tools for focusing as well. If the technology is available (and it is!!) to help focus more accurately without the constant need of that "great Focus puller" then there is no reason not to have it implemented on the RED. Other lower end cams do it, it's only fair to expect the RED One to have similar or better focusing tools!


It's not "crap" its simply how its done in the big leagues. Viper, genesis, d20, F23 all don't have the gimmicky focus devices that come on the prosumer, barely "pro" camera's. If you made a it to a major league baseball team you probably would not want to show up with your little league glove. The red camera is a big step up and as silly as some people may think a tape measure is it is by FAR the best tool for focusing and an industry standard for a reason. Those that are fighting against it tend to show a lack of experience. Learn to step up the ladder to a higher level or buy a prosumer camera with the gimmicky crap and stay at that level.

[Barry Green]

Did I make any mistake anywhere?
Obviously testing is warranted, but it's my understanding that the Rec709 accounts for that; it would move its "crush" and "clip" points down 1.67 stops. Right?

By setting a lower ISO, you're basically giving away dynamic range on the top end. By setting a higher ISO you're giving away dynamic range on the bottom.

[Axel Mertes]

I used the zebras in that manner to basically alert me whenever anything is getting near clipping, in an attempt to "expose to the right". The intention is to know when anything exceeds the 105 level, but the current implementation doesn't give you the option of setting up for "anything above 105", for example, because anything above 108 won't show. It makes it a little odd to roll exposure through the zebras because if you had a chunk of white that was overexposed, you'll only see the zebras on the rim of it, not on the big surface of it. As you iris up or down, that band of zebras will move across the white surface. Just seems like it should be possible to configure it to zebra out anything that's 105+.

I've seen the same and wondered if I or the camera was wrong here...

I can totally second that "bug report".

Axel

[Barry Green]

But really - we want to expose to the right in most/all situations to maximize our data, right? Sometimes that means we'll purposefully let stuff blow out because the scene has a wide light range and what we need properly exposed is down in the shadows... so what's REALLY blowing out? For real.
Well, that's why I think staying at 320 is probably the right course. Changing the ISO is more of a "preview" of what your post-processed footage might look like, but it's not changing what you're recording in the here and now.

[Finner]

Here's why I think 1:1 pixel zoom for focus would be extremely useful...

OK, you need to set focus on the talent's eyes. You've pulled your tape and her peepers are at 8ft. Now let's turn the focus ring on our lens...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/535_1205267736.jpg

I have stated for months that any still zoom, especially the 17-35 nikon are all terrible choices for a red.

[Joel Kaye]

Here's why I think 1:1 pixel zoom for focus would be extremely useful...

OK, you need to set focus on the talent's eyes. You've pulled your tape and her peepers are at 8ft. Now let's turn the focus ring on our lens...


Finner's answer to that is just rent real lenses every time you shoot. Really guys - if you don't have a crew and own $100K in lenses you shouldn't buy RED. (I see what Finner's doing - he's trying to eliminate competition by raising FUD..... he's like The Penguin... he's always thinking, that guy)

Ya know where you end up if you follow that logic, don't you? You end up with RED shouldn't exist. Just shoot film with a real crew if you're serious about making movies. Think about it.

RED was saying "screw that - we're going to build a camera average guys can buy and go shoot and have it look like a movie". That's an untapped market. Any tool they can add to make life easier for that buyer is another 1000 cameras they are going to sell.

Feel free to print this post out and put it on your wall if you work at RED

[Dane Brehm]

I have seen increased noise under metered well lit tungsten lighting. It makes total sense because of the 5,000 kevlvin balanced sensor. Will build 15 or 16 decrease noise in tungsten lighting situations or do you recommend an 80a filter when using tungsten.

Thanks for the hardwork!

[Axel Mertes]

Here's why I think 1:1 pixel zoom for focus would be extremely useful...

OK, you need to set focus on the talent's eyes. You've pulled your tape and her peepers are at 8ft. Now let's turn the focus ring on our lens...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/535_1205267736.jpg

Jeff, where is your problem :) ?

It has meters AND feed, so its all up to the "great focus puller" :bleh: .
Use the whitness marks, maybe that helps :)

A real world example from an Indy production...

Cheers,
Axel

[Dj Joofa]

Obviously testing is warranted, but it's my understanding that the Rec709 accounts for that; it would move its "crush" and "clip" points down 1.67 stops. Right?

By setting a lower ISO, you're basically giving away dynamic range on the top end. By setting a higher ISO you're giving away dynamic range on the bottom.

Right.

To me it appears that in this particular situation that we are discussing, once the signal starts clipping, Rec 709 display will show the clipping as you point out, however, the order of operations is reversed, i.e., the signals first clips on the sensor and then it shows up on the Rec 709 display, as opposed to the normal model of clipping on Rec 709 display first, and on the sensor later.

Which gives me the indication that setting the ISO less than 320 can be dangerous if metering is done on a value less than 320.

[Finner]

Finner's answer to that is just rent real lenses every time you shoot. Really guys - if you don't have a crew and own $100K in lenses you shouldn't buy RED. (I see what Finner's doing - he's trying to eliminate competition by raising FUD..... he's like The Penguin... he's always thinking, that guy)

Ya know where you end up if you follow that logic, don't you? You end up with RED shouldn't exist. Just shoot film with a real crew if you're serious about making movies. Think about it.


This is just stupid, not at all the case and not what I am saying. Low budget use of the red is totally possible but a few requirements are neededed. I will list them below.

1. At least one camera assistant is needed with this camera. Between ND changes, downloading / wrangling footage and keeping focus there is a ton going on and a camera assistant is a must. If you can not afford a camera assistant this camera is a bad choice.

2. Still Zoom lenses will be SHIT for the red. These are by far the worst choice you can make for lenses. Still zooms do not hold focus through the zoom so you can never hard mark them and if you were to decide to go a little tighter on take 2 you would have to remeasure and mark every focus point. I think still prime lenses will work fairly well if set up right with gears.

3. A full set of ND's/Matte Box and follow focus.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have stated for months that any still zoom, especially the 17-35 nikon are all terrible choices for a red.

I agree (especially in the case of this 17-35), but that isn't going to stop people from using them. Perhaps that wasn't the best example of why a 1:1 pixel zoom would be beneficial. To have 1:1 zoom for setting the back focus when changing mounts would be an ideal reason for it to exist.

[Finner]

To have 1:1 zoom for setting the back focus when changing mounts would be an ideal reason for it to exist.

I agree that would be a great use of it. It will be helpful for quick eye focus points as well but a tape measure will be way better in 99% of situations.

[Clint Johnson]

If you can not judge if you are getting accurate focus with the shallow DOF on the long lenses needed in those situations then I would suggest finding another line of work.

As for eaten AC's on a commercial years ago I pulled focus on a running cougar that instead of running to the trainer with meat decided the camera, Op and I were more interesting. I almost pissed myself that day as he sniffed my ears.

Don't worry about Finner, they were filming over in Oxnard at "The Fabulous Ladies Night Club" and that "cougar" was a waitress from the local Dennie's... by the way, Sally asks why you never call?

And the whole "get a tape measure" argument works to get you to the ballpark. Measure out eight feet four inches and then move the focus to about a third of the way between the eight and the nine foot witness mark... unless you're using a Red lens, in which case you take a guess that the eight foot witness mark would be just off the top of the '7' and guess from there. Depending on your depth of focus, this will put your subject in the zone for something like 99% of the time. Looking at the monitor will likewise get you in the ballpark if you close down the lens a little since about every four pixels are averaged out to one on the display.

This tape measured ballpark has been good enough for the professional film industry and trying to get the the absolute precise plane of focus that is only available through a 1:1 view on the display... I'd really like it but the lack of it hasn't held back the professionals.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Finner

I am certain that in ten years tape won't be used anymore on "Big" shots, due to technical advancement in focus assist systems.
The sooner we start adressing this issue in an inteligent and elegant manner, the sooner we'll get there.
Red is right kind of company to bring such a leap forward to the industry, so let's make sure they don't stop halfway.

Let's move forward

Emmanuel

[Finner]

Good lenses have witness marks.

[Clint Johnson]

Good lenses have witness marks.

ohhh snap!

[Brent J. Craig]

Here's why I think 1:1 pixel zoom for focus would be extremely useful...

OK, you need to set focus on the talent's eyes. You've pulled your tape and her peepers are at 8ft. Now let's turn the focus ring on our lens...

...Picture of Nikon lens...

I think I see your problem Jeff, that's a lens meant for a Nikon still camera! Those things focus themselves. :-)

At the long end of that zoom, wide open at 8 feet, you have depth of field from 7'0 to 9'4 (assuming 35mm film as your final output). If you can guess within a 2 foot range, you are OK.

While I completely agree that better focusing tools are needed, examples using gear not meant for cinema production aren't totally relevant. No amount of digital magic is going to turn consumer gear into professional cine gear.

[Brent J. Craig]

It's not "crap" its simply how its done in the big leagues. Viper, genesis, d20, F23 all don't have the gimmicky focus devices

Viper and Genesis have 4 times less resolution that a Red and a 16mm sized sensor! Focussing them is a joke.

D20 has an optical viewfinder with a magnifier!



Those that are fighting against it tend to show a lack of experience. Learn to step up the ladder to a higher level or buy a prosumer camera with the gimmicky crap and stay at that level.

I think that in 15 years of focus pulling big budget commercials I have 'stepped up the ladder'. A tape measure is a useful tool, but it shouldn't be the only tool. There are situations too numerous to mention where tape measures are simply not practical. With an arsenal of other high-tech tools at our disposal, we can work better and faster AND make good movies, which is why we are all here isn't it?

Do you think a focus puller is someone's first call because they are handy with a tape measure or because they use all the tools at their disposal to be fast, accurate and efficient using the best technology available?

[Finner]

I think that in 15 years of focus pulling big budget commercials I have 'stepped up the ladder'. A tape measure is a useful tool, but it shouldn't be the only tool. There are situations too numerous to mention where tape measures are simply not practical. With an arsenal of other high-tech tools at our disposal, we can work better and faster AND make good movies, which is why we are all here isn't it?

Do you think a focus puller is someone's first call because they are handy with a tape measure or because they use all the tools at their disposal to be fast, accurate and efficient using the best technology available?

I moved up to Dp after 6 years of pulling focus on big budget commercials/features so I guess you have more experience with focus then I. Or possibly your just a slow learner?

[Axel Mertes]

I agree that would be a great use of it. It will be helpful for quick eye focus points as well but a tape measure will be way better in 99% of situations.


Well, what shall I say,

still no EVF
still no FOCUS HOOK

Imagine, how should my AC work :) at all...

I guess it can be fixed!

Axel

[Axel Mertes]

[..]While I completely agree that better focusing tools are needed, examples using gear not meant for cinema production aren't totally relevant. No amount of digital magic is going to turn consumer gear into professional cine gear.

Basically I agree here, but... There is a lot possible that you apparently not imagine. Be careful with such statements...

Axel

[Shawn Bannon]

Having a camera assistant even with advanced focus assist tools is essential. Sometimes with 35mm DOF you only have a few inches in focus.

Sure you can try to get the most bang for your buck but if you need a 12 ft ladder to do the job why buy an 11ft one just because its a quarter of the price?

With accessories, RED cameras are not inexpensive by any means. though saying all that I use to be a Camera Assistant and i'm confident operating and pulling focus on a certain amount of shots. but you're just kidding yourself if you think you can pull focus all by yourself on a complicated camera move with shallow depth of field. even if you had this elaborate focus assist which showed every pixel you'll need another person to pay attention to this laborious job.

[Adrian T.]

Back to the exposure problem:

RED (and especially Jim) told us many times that the proper way to work with the RED ONE is to expose to the right but not to clip.

So why are we supposed to do that with the current histogram/traffic light implementation? They depend on all kinds of preview settings (ISO, brightness, contrast) and don't represent what we really need to know to follow your advice. We might give away the high stops of the sensor for nothing. And these are the stops with the highest resolution.

So again, please give us RAW measurements!

[Joel Kaye]

I think still prime lenses will work fairly well if set up right with gears.
3. A full set of ND's/Matte Box and follow focus.

Ya know I'm just teasing ya Finner. Good advice.

We were able to pull some pretty good focus off the RED LCD this weekend on a 60mm macro (a bitch to focus beyond 2 feet) lens. Playback in 1080P on a 1080P plasma confirmed we were good for Blu-Ray. And it looked as sharp as any Blu-Ray you're like;y to see. And we weren't even getting serious yet.

I'm more concerned about focal lengths where the differences in focus are very subtle at 8-15 feet. That'll probably be tough to see.

Hey, I'll have my tape measure, my range finder, my DOF charts and everything else around to help... but I still want my camera helping too.

OH - BTW... the EX1 has a DOF range graph built into the display. That's another nice digital trick that's very helpful. RED could add that when it enables data transfer with their lenses.



i'm confident operating and pulling focus on a certain amount of shots. but you're just kidding yourself if you think you can pull focus all by yourself on a complicated camera move with shallow depth of field. even if you had this elaborate focus assist which showed every pixel you'll need another person to pay attention to this laborious job.

Yeah - I'd say that's accurate.

[Joel Kaye]

Well, that's why I think staying at 320 is probably the right course. Changing the ISO is more of a "preview" of what your post-processed footage might look like, but it's not changing what you're recording in the here and now.

Which begs the question - is 320 really correct? Or did they build in some headroom so 200 might be better in low contrast situations. Maybe 400 is better outdoors. In the end, I'll figure it out... but it still would be nice to know what's really clipping so I can keep pushing the exposure to the right.

[Mark Pugh]

I've tried setting ASA at much lower rating (200 and below) in low contrast (smoggy) situations, watching the right side of the histogram, and found myself exposing at apertures providing much much better results.
The clip also opens in Redcine at an ASA that provides more highlight detail.

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's not "crap" its simply how its done in the big leagues. Viper, genesis, d20, F23 all don't have the gimmicky focus devices that come on the prosumer, barely "pro" camera's. If you made a it to a major league baseball team you probably would not want to show up with your little league glove. The red camera is a big step up and as silly as some people may think a tape measure is it is by FAR the best tool for focusing and an industry standard for a reason. Those that are fighting against it tend to show a lack of experience. Learn to step up the ladder to a higher level or buy a prosumer camera with the gimmicky crap and stay at that level.

You know Finner, I cannot shake the feeling that you are talking down to a lot of people here. I for one use ACs, and they pull focus. But you know what pal, I also shoot on my own.. Know why? Cause I'd like to think I'm one of those things you call... What's that name? Oh yeah, an artist. I like to shoot for shooting's sake, not because I get off on a camera crew.

One more small point, I know someone else that shoots alone, and I'll bet he almost never uses an AC either... Jim Jannard, you wanna tell him to "step up the ladder?" Dude, he BUILT the ladder.

RED's focus assist is good, but it can be better. I'll go with your arguement of "use a tape" IF RED had not developed a digital focus assist. But they did, and don't you remember all the "You're not going to believe Graeme's magic focus assist!" - Hype.. Well we've seen it, and it's ok, but RED did not do it the best.. Jim has always struck us as being the guy who would never settle for 2nd best. Hard fact: RED's focus is 2nd best. So the next step is obvious....

This is not a dig at RED, everyone swings the bat, sometimes it's a homer, and sometimes, in the dugout.. What matters if RED has more homers than fouls. This one was not a homer, so they need another swing at it, that's all.

I used the focus assist twice, it was not easy enough or helpful enough, so I turned it off and never went back. Even though I needed it.. This is a bad sign.

See you at NAB my friend

Jay

[Dj Joofa]

Back to the exposure problem:

RED (and especially Jim) told us many times that the proper way to work with the RED ONE is to expose to the right but not to clip.



Big Lebowski, this "exposing to the right" phenomenon is open to interpretation. I am not privy to how Red is internally implemented but here is a scenario which I think is a little funny. BTW, I do not have a Red in front of me, so I am just theorizing out of the blue/thin air.

We put the ISO rating on Red to 100. The LCD image darkens. However, the actual signal as output by sensor is not reduced correspondingly. It is still relatively higher corresponding to ISO 320. We start increasing aperture size and/or increasing exposure time. The LCD image lightens up. However, depending upon the lighting situation, we may reach a stage where the brightest spot on the lcd is still gray (and not brightly white), but the correspondingly larger signal on the sensor output has reached its clipping point. The fact that the (Rec 709) display clipping point is 0.4 EV less than max, can only exacerbate the situation here, as that will clip the signal on the (Rec 709) display earlier, than it should.

So now we are in a situation where just looking at the LCD screen, which is not fully bright, you feel that there is room to go as the brightest spot is still gray and not brightly-lit white, but any increase in aperture size and/or exposure time is not making it any brighter; instead more and more LCD image pixel values are saturating at gray levels.

In earlier threads we have seen cases where the LCD image looked clearly clipped but the sensor had some leeway built into by some headroom provided by 0.4 EV. However, in this case the LCD may not look fully exposed, but it is still clipping at gray levels.

[Finner]

You know Finner, I cannot shake the feeling that you are talking down to a lot of people here.

Not my intention, honestly sorry if it came across that way.


Jim Jannard, you wanna tell him to "step up the ladder?" Dude, he BUILT the ladder.

I thought he built like sunglasses and cameras and stuff.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I thought he built like sunglasses and cameras and stuff.

Ouch! That was cold.

Jay

[Brook Willard]

Easy, kids... there's a respectful way to have this discussion that won't rub people the wrong way.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Uhhhh Brook, Finner was being cute.. And so was I... Perhaps we just missed!

:)

Jay

[Poi Boy]

Easy, kids... there's a respectful way to have this discussion that won't rub people the wrong way.

keep in mind that Finner is an acquired taste.
Aloha
-A

[Morning Glory]

mmmmmm, finner!

[Poi Boy]

that is way funny Garth !

lol

Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, don't worry, we all know Daren quite well by now.

Clearly I missed the subtlety altogether. Nothing to see here... move along...

[Steve Gibby]

Me, GibCor, and an alliance company own a total of six RED cameras, with two more to be delivered shortly. We’ve been shooting with them for over six months now, in a wide variety of styles: cine-style, EFP style, and hybrid cine/EFP style. We’ve shot extensively with 35mm cine primes and zooms, some 35mm still lenses, and B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zooms. We’ve shot extensive aerials (helicopter and fixed wing), extensive underwater, with cranes, jibs, stabilization units, and a broad range of tripod and hand held terrestrial footage. Projects have included features, television programs, commercials, high-end business media, stock footage, and many more. As you might guess, our kit setups have ranged from bare bones mobile 1-person setups, to max-accessorized gigantic rigs.

So, what have we learned about RED ONE in all this? A few thoughts:

The camera essentially becomes what you accessorize it to become, whether that be cine style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style.

The camera can be effectively used in a large crew cine or EFP environment, or quite easily used by a single operator.

The biggest challenge for most RED ONE users is for them to develop broad enough skill sets, and open-minded attitudes, to effectively match what the camera itself is capable of being used for.

There are very few “right” ways or “wrong” ways to use the camera, though many biased or elitist individuals protecting their turf will try to claim there are.

Used correctly, the camera generates excellent images – which is the bottom line, and what we’re all after.

Users of the camera come from a broad range of backgrounds; film, television, video, still photography – thus attitudes, experience, biases, and prejudices will vary.

The camera’s technology is most closely related to a DSLR, moderately related to a TV/video camera, and only remotely related to a film camera.

An all-manual workflow has its limitations, thus the electronics incorporated in RED ONE are there to be used to modify the workflow when needed or wanted.

Imaging professionals do use the right tool for the job, and sometimes that tool involves some auto features. DSLR pros regularly use autofocus when a job calls for it. TV/video pros regularly use some auto features when necessary (iris, etc.). They are no less “pros” than all manual film professionals.

Focusing 4k with RED ONE can be done effectively by traditional methods, using measuring tapes, focus pullers, scales, etc, or alternately by sight focusing using the EVF, LCD, 2x image magnification, and the other focus tools. Real “pros” match their focusing methods to the demands of the task at hand. 1:1 would be nice, but the camera can be focused just fine with the tools it presently has.

In competent hands, the exposure can be set accurately with the camera using traditional methods (hand meter, etc.) or by using the camera’s electronics (zebra, etc.). If someone isn’t competent, they can blow exposure on the camera, but there really isn’t any “rocket science” involved with exposing RED RAW efficiently. Practice makes perfect.

RAW is different than shooting RGB. DSLR pros coming to RED have a jump on that. TV/video pros used to shooting RGB have a moderate learning curve in approaching RED ONE. Film types, who haven’t traditionally used (or trusted) electronics on a camera, will tend to stay with the safe (read “manual) procedures. They’ll be real familiar with cine lens use on RED ONE, but generally unfamiliar and/or untrusting of the electronic features.

-------------------------------------------

END NOTES:

There are very few right ways or wrong ways to use RED ONE. If you’re getting well exposed and well focused images from the camera you’re using it the “right” way, if not, you’re using it the “wrong” way. Beyond the large crew cine-style productions GibCor has done or been a part of, I have personally shot petabytes of RED ONE footage over a six month period all by myself, with absolutely no assistant, sight focusing the camera by myself using the EVF or LCD, plus RED’s existing focusing tools, and quickly exposing the images using zebra or with more time also using the histogram. I respect both the traditional manual workflow (and use it at times), and also respect the more progressive “use the camera’s electronics, small crew or single operator” workflow. GibCor matches the best and most effective lenses, accessories, and workflow procedures to each project, and keeps a continually open mind for modifications of our workflows and equipment.

I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE. GibCor and our associates are not strictly cine-style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style in our approach – we’re all those. We pick the most appropriate style and equipment for our RED ONE cameras for each individual project.

[Corrado Silveri]

Wow, Steve, great post.
100% agree.

[Mark Phelan]

Ditto, Steve.

[Kenn Christenson]

Still - like to see 1:1 focusing. Would it be that difficult, given everything else Red's accomplished? Maybe shave a little off the time devoted to Scarlet? :wink:

[Andrew M.]

Gibby, what are you guys using for post?
SCRATCH?

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, what are you guys using for post?
SCRATCH?

We use either FCP or SCRATCH depending on the specific needs of each project. Horses for courses...

[Steve Gibby]

Elcurado and Redsky

Thank you for the kind words...

We're all important members of the worldwide RED family of users. I think we need to behave like a functional family, not a dysfunctional one. Respect is a two way street. Everyone here should give respect - and receive respect.

Ciao...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Gibby for a great post.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I see no reason not to implement advanced features if the technology allows it and there is a demand for it, and IF they don't interfere with ease and speed of shooting.

The problem with adding features is being able to control them. That's where the limitations of buttons step in.
Features and controls being buried in menus within menus within menus will complicate things instead of helping with camera operation.

As I said before, if you plan to add features I think it would be wise to add new external multifunctional controllers, such as touch screen for quick navigation or multiple knobs with function assignment ability.

If it's possible, make camera control "modes", where each user can choose how many, or which controls are shown/used.
They could be customized with another app, or even Redcine, by seeing the whole menu tree and arranging/deleting branches like nodes in compositing apps.
You create you own modes and transfer them into the camera.

Those setups could also be transferred onto other cameras, so each shooter could quickly customize any Red for his/hers own preference and feel.
Another example - those modes could also be customized for different types of shoot.

Okay - you wanted the camera to be modular. So go a step further and make GUI modular also.
Since your creation is mechanical and digital, try adding modularity into digital realm as well.

That way you can keep all types of shooters happy and creative, which I assume is your goal.

[Andrew M.]

Omen, this customizing will create product support nightmare.
Maybe once the product is mature you could add extra user menus to be configured by users but the main flow and branches have to be rigid.

[Michael Hastings]

Omen, this customizing will create product support nightmare.
Maybe once the product is mature you could add extra user menus to be configured by users but the main flow and branches have to be rigid.

Why? Anyone that would create custom menus would know something about the camera and know that they were doing something mildly dangerous.

A simple "return to factory settings" as exists on almost every modern broadcast camera, cell phone, etc. would solve the support nightmare issue.

Being able to make custom presets, customizable user buttons and menu settings are a key component of every current broadcast, prosumer and even some consumer level camcorders - why not the RED?

It seems like a lot of people want to dumb down this camera when the whole key to the computer-centric design of the RED is all the cool things we should be able to do. Because of that I expect the RED to have a lot more of this capability than say a Varicam or F900 - not less.

User interface and camera control software stuff should be fairly simple programming for one of thousands of software engineers around the country to do and doesn't require the "mad-genius" Graeme Nattress type. If RED doesn't have one, they should take the cash flow from 3 or 4 camera sales and hire one now, and let Graeme work on the "magic" stuff.

[Andrew M.]

I agree that resetting to the factory default will eliminate any confusion for support.

I just reacted to this statement:
“You create your own modes and transfer them into the camera”

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just reacted to this statement:
“You create your own modes and transfer them into the camera”


Andrew,
think of Modes as "visibility" of options.

They wouldn't change anything inside the camera. Just as you perceive the GUI.
Think of "Modes" as LUT's for GUI. :-)


Wiki:
"In computer science, a lookup table is a data structure, usually an array or associative array, used to replace a runtime computation with a simpler lookup operation. The speed gain can be significant, since retrieving a value from memory is often faster than undergoing an expensive computation."


Keys are often right in front of us...

[Andrew Benz]

Thanks Gibby for a great post.

I agree, thanks for taking time to share your knowledge Gibby. I know I have benefitted from it...

Andrew

[Andrew M.]

Andrew,
think of Modes as "visibility" of options.

They wouldn't change anything inside the camera. Just as you perceive the GUI.
Think of "Modes" as LUT's for GUI. :-)



Keys are often right in front of us...

Aaaaa... this would be nice..............

[David Battistella]

I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE.


Somebody please make this a sticky or the first thing everyone has to read when logging in for the next week or two.

About half the orders for RED include the Nikon mount, are all those Nikon users "lesser" for using some of the best glass around?

Gibby.

I applaud your truthful and sensible approach. It is refreshing on this forum. Sometimes I feel like I need a shower after reading how messed up some of the rhetoric is around here.

RED = REVOLUTION

Let's not loose sight of that.

David

[albert rudnicki]

good summarization David
Thanks
Albert

[Hrvoje Simic]

Gibby is a Sensei.

[bakopeti]

What about the skew in Build 15 and 16? Are there/will be any improvements? That would be great for VFX workers...

[Bang WOW Bang]

Hello Steve,
It's Stewart here in HKG with BWB 's Computer Cafe, and how was your 3D RED projects going ?

It's been a whilewe have not heard about your test since Sept., 2007!!!

Sorry Stewart is my Guest
BWB



Me, GibCor, and an alliance company own a total of six RED cameras, with two more to be delivered shortly. We’ve been shooting with them for over six months now, in a wide variety of styles: cine-style, EFP style, and hybrid cine/EFP style. We’ve shot extensively with 35mm cine primes and zooms, some 35mm still lenses, and B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zooms. We’ve shot extensive aerials (helicopter and fixed wing), extensive underwater, with cranes, jibs, stabilization units, and a broad range of tripod and hand held terrestrial footage. Projects have included features, television programs, commercials, high-end business media, stock footage, and many more. As you might guess, our kit setups have ranged from bare bones mobile 1-person setups, to max-accessorized gigantic rigs.

So, what have we learned about RED ONE in all this? A few thoughts:

The camera essentially becomes what you accessorize it to become, whether that be cine style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style.

The camera can be effectively used in a large crew cine or EFP environment, or quite easily used by a single operator.

The biggest challenge for most RED ONE users is for them to develop broad enough skill sets, and open-minded attitudes, to effectively match what the camera itself is capable of being used for.

There are very few “right” ways or “wrong” ways to use the camera, though many biased or elitist individuals protecting their turf will try to claim there are.

Used correctly, the camera generates excellent images – which is the bottom line, and what we’re all after.

Users of the camera come from a broad range of backgrounds; film, television, video, still photography – thus attitudes, experience, biases, and prejudices will vary.

The camera’s technology is most closely related to a DSLR, moderately related to a TV/video camera, and only remotely related to a film camera.

An all-manual workflow has its limitations, thus the electronics incorporated in RED ONE are there to be used to modify the workflow when needed or wanted.

Imaging professionals do use the right tool for the job, and sometimes that tool involves some auto features. DSLR pros regularly use autofocus when a job calls for it. TV/video pros regularly use some auto features when necessary (iris, etc.). They are no less “pros” than all manual film professionals.

Focusing 4k with RED ONE can be done effectively by traditional methods, using measuring tapes, focus pullers, scales, etc, or alternately by sight focusing using the EVF, LCD, 2x image magnification, and the other focus tools. Real “pros” match their focusing methods to the demands of the task at hand. 1:1 would be nice, but the camera can be focused just fine with the tools it presently has.

In competent hands, the exposure can be set accurately with the camera using traditional methods (hand meter, etc.) or by using the camera’s electronics (zebra, etc.). If someone isn’t competent, they can blow exposure on the camera, but there really isn’t any “rocket science” involved with exposing RED RAW efficiently. Practice makes perfect.

RAW is different than shooting RGB. DSLR pros coming to RED have a jump on that. TV/video pros used to shooting RGB have a moderate learning curve in approaching RED ONE. Film types, who haven’t traditionally used (or trusted) electronics on a camera, will tend to stay with the safe (read “manual) procedures. They’ll be real familiar with cine lens use on RED ONE, but generally unfamiliar and/or untrusting of the electronic features.

-------------------------------------------

END NOTES:

There are very few right ways or wrong ways to use RED ONE. If you’re getting well exposed and well focused images from the camera you’re using it the “right” way, if not, you’re using it the “wrong” way. Beyond the large crew cine-style productions GibCor has done or been a part of, I have personally shot petabytes of RED ONE footage over a six month period all by myself, with absolutely no assistant, sight focusing the camera by myself using the EVF or LCD, plus RED’s existing focusing tools, and quickly exposing the images using zebra or with more time also using the histogram. I respect both the traditional manual workflow (and use it at times), and also respect the more progressive “use the camera’s electronics, small crew or single operator” workflow. GibCor matches the best and most effective lenses, accessories, and workflow procedures to each project, and keeps a continually open mind for modifications of our workflows and equipment.

I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE. GibCor and our associates are not strictly cine-style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style in our approach – we’re all those. We pick the most appropriate style and equipment for our RED ONE cameras for each individual project.

[Jason Sinclair]

Maybe the focus issue could be solved by a third party manufacturer when using still lenses. Could not passive focusing be used on the output data? And then get perfect focus using berger motor control. This is a better option for me (or indeed a handy tool that would be used in conjunction with 1:1 focusing - for instance in low contrast settings) If someone could adapt the technology currently employed in still photography to say an external touch screen monitor then anywhere in frame could be put into exact focus within seconds 80-90% of the time. This method would handle most ENG work and also be a valuable asset to low budget shooting and indeed an extra handy tool for ac's everywhere "up the ladder" (except those one's unwilling to stray from traditional methodologies *cough*). I don't know if canon or nikon would give you the algorithms to achieve this or you would need to rewrite them specifically for red. In any case a group buy could get a coder on the job or an intelligent software design company can make $$$ out of such an add on. So the workflow would go something like this: monitor out to tablet touchscreen pc with hd screen. contrast algorithms processed in pc when ac touches certain points on the touch screen >information sent to Birger (or Birger like) devise via bluetooth to autofocus internal motor on still lens > lens adjusts its focus.
Have a look at how passive focusing works in dslr's to further understand.

[Petros Nousias]

So, when is build 15 coming out of beta? This week or the next?

[wshultz]

I'm really curious about the image enhancements to build 16. Are we still going to see it in plenty of time before NAB?

[Jannard]

Release before NAB. Not sure what "plenty of time before" means...

Jim

[wshultz]

Release before NAB. Not sure what "plenty of time before" means...

Jim

Well technically I guess today would constitute the earliest "plenty of time". "Before NAB" could be as late as April 13 or 14? :huh:

So, sometime in the next two weeks. Cool.

[Petros Nousias]

Before NAB for 15 or 16? Im really anxious to find out when's 15 coming out of beta since IO have a shooting next week where Ill need the multi-output capability.

[Chris Bell]

I second that... We need 15 to come out of beta. Going back to 13 is not an option for commercial shoots. Clients demand having a tap image, and I must operate with the LCD.

Chris Bell

[wshultz]

Things seem very quiet today.

[Clint Johnson]

Too quiet... (nervously checks his ammo).

[Brent J. Craig]

To quiet... (nervously checks his ammo).

Canadians have ammo?

[Mark Andersen]

Have been shooting with Beta 15 and gave had no problems. There are significant improvements over 13 (like multi-monitors) I think some folk are missing out if they are skidish about using 15.

[Brent J. Craig]

We did a day of testing on Build 15 this week. I was trying to crash it with Redcode 36, Soderberg CF Cards and very complex scenes with trees and fast pans. Other than some LCD flicker it was rock solid (the rental house supplied the first version of build 15 from before the LCD was fixed). I really hope 15 is a release build in the next few weeks!

[Michael Hastings]

We did a day of testing on Build 15 this week. I was trying to crash it with Redcode 36, Soderberg CF Cards and very complex scenes with trees and fast pans. Other than some LCD flicker it was rock solid (the rental house supplied the first version of build 15 from before the LCD was fixed). I really hope 15 is a release build in the next few weeks!

So soderberg cfs work on 15?

[Brent J. Craig]

So soderberg cfs work on 15?

Worked for us. Build 15 v2.1.4

[CJ Roy]

Shot two music videos this weekend on 15. No issues.

[Warren Kommers]

We did a day of testing on Build 15 this week. I was trying to crash it with Redcode 36, Soderberg CF Cards and very complex scenes with trees and fast pans. Other than some LCD flicker it was rock solid (the rental house supplied the first version of build 15 from before the LCD was fixed). I really hope 15 is a release build in the next few weeks!

15 crashed on us shooting 16:9 4k at redcode 28. On the second version of it.

2:1 no problems.

[Luis Otero]

Shot part of a short this last weekend using Build 15, 4K 2:1, Redcode 36 with no problems so far. We used Red Drive as magazine.:turned:

Luis

[Jannard]

Build 15 is very close to standard release. One more bug to squish.

Build 16 is beginning internal testing. So much improvement that it is hard to speak about. We'll take our time to get it right before beta. If you shoot RED, you are going to love this build.

Jim

[Bing Bailey]

thats great news jim. only two weeks til nab. I'm going to go insane waiting

[wshultz]

It's hard to imagine much more improvement. But I'm imagining anyway.
Can't wait to see it.

[Gabriel C.]

Man, the teasing ... you're like my girlfriend. Give us another hint what's in store with build 16. I'll buy you dinner. :)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Thanks for the update on the firmware builds. I understand that managing expectations is tough. IMHO you have found a better balance between transparency and an information vacuum lately. I always said you were a fast learner :weight_lift:

[tj williams]

Hey Finner licking your face!!! but was the big cat spot on sharp all the way toward camera? I think Birger is going to make the EOS lenses usable, mark the wheel and be happy!
TJ

[cmart400]

Great news. As a colorist who's roots are in coloring film, I have been very happy with coloring the few RED elements I have. I work on a DaVinci, so it takes a few hoops to jump through make a workable format. The rest of our facility is discrete logic, so we all look forward to being able to provide our clients with a more efficient workflow in the future. The day .R3D can be used across multiple platforms like any other file format or video format will be a great day indeed.

Sorry if this was a bit off topic for this thread for some. This issue just isn't going to go away.

[Shawn Bannon]

are we talking beta BUILD 16 by NAB?

[Jannard]

We are testing Build 16 now (that's what I was doing a minute ago)...

It is a comprehensive build and we want to make sure it is 98% before we release it. Internal testing and tweaking will take a bit longer for this build than any other. I'm sure you would rather us get it right that rush it? Especially since Build 15 is so good...

We running as fast as we can. If we just didn't have NAB to get ready for...

Jim

[wshultz]

We are testing Build 16 now (that's what I was doing a minute ago)...

It is a comprehensive build and we want to make sure it is 98% before we release it. Internal testing and tweaking will take a bit longer for this build than any other. I'm sure you would rather us get it right that rush it? Especially since Build 15 is so good...

We running as fast as we can. If we just didn't have NAB to get ready for...

Jim

Was that a YES, NO, or MAYBE by NAB?

[Brent J. Craig]

... If we just didn't have NAB to get ready for...

Oh, are you guys going to be at NAB?




:biggrin:

[Jannard]

Maybe... we hope so, no guarantees, schedule subject to change.

Jim

[Jason Ing]

I'm sure you would rather us get it right that rush it? Especially since Build 15 is so good...

We running as fast as we can. If we just didn't have NAB to get ready for...

Jim

Jim,

Speed walk.

Right first. Rush second.

[Shawn Bannon]

that sounds good to me. personally I don't need a stable version of Build 16 until the end of June. I start shooting tests in May, sounds like timing will be equivalent. From the sound of it Build 16 is worth the wait.