Tiered Partners...

[Jannard]

For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

[Eli Jarra]

For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

Thanks Jim! Can't wait for Discreet...ah sorry sorry, Autodesk to jump on board!

-Eli

[Dustin Cross]

Jim,

Don't worry about backwards compatibility right now. Just make it the best you can. That is the whole reason for having limited partners right now. Worry about backwards compatibility when you have everything working how you want it.

Dusty

[Dj Joofa]

The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners.

Will you be willing to open source the R3D format? Or a freely available SDK to access R3D for independent developers?

[Gunleik Groven]

This is just my 2c, but...

As long as todays tools always are available for working with what is shot thus far and you have stated that you're not out of beta untill build 15 (which image-wise is now build 16 and could well be counting), I think you should do whatever you can to make things the best (as if they're not already very good :) )

Again my 2c.
It would humor the PC guys quite a bit to allow for something like the cineform transcode tool in the meantime, as it seems they're having more challenges than tha Mac crowd. I see how this can be complicated and I hear your fears, but as long as they don't have redline/redalert, they're in for a more bumpy ride. Doesn't have to be cineform, if that is an issue, but something conceptually similar.

Cheers!
I'll be shooting soon! :)

Gunleik

[Anthony Gratl]

But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not understanding what image enhancements have to do with the .r3d file and other NLE's being able to read them natively. I'm sure that all companies would be willing to work alongside you to ensure that their nle's are compatible with whatever Red is putting out there codec wise, and indeed, you can contractually obligate them to do so.
Also, I'm not sure what backwards compatibility of your apps has to do with software development from other companies moving forward. RC and RA are both version 1, and not bulletproof.
How can you work with new partners to create bulletproof workflows when you aren't opening up to them to start this process? As you know far better than I, it all takes time, and not opening it up to other companies asap seems counter-productive.

This "delay" is disappointing frankly. Revolution is also allowing your codec creation to hit the opensource highway, and let the best app lead the way, and this feels like we'll be driving around a closed circuit for awhile. Don't you want to feel the wind rushing through your hair man? I get the sense that "this year" means late November, not June. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm very grateful for the creation of this wonderful camera, but
I'm not really understanding the rationale for this codec decision, and somewhat confused by what you've written by way of explanation.

[Kenn Michael]

There's most likely much framework and under the hood stuff going on in the codec to implement image enhancements and other new features/enhancements that we don't know about.

I'm just as eager as anyone to get some 3rd party goodness going on here, but I also understand that getting it 'right' before opening up means the difference between having a solid platform to grow on and not being a developer on OS9, only to have to switch a month later to OSX, then another month after that from PPC architecture to Intel chips.

They know the code much more than we could ever guess and we should definitely trust that they want to make 3rd party developers' lives easier, not nightmarish.

[Michael Thornton]

Thanks Jim,

As long as new apps can read old files, that is all the backward compat we will need.

Thanks again.

Tek

[Mike Zinner]

I agree with Evolve and his arguments.

What this means for me personally is, that I am stuck with Build 13 for the time being - since that is the only build that works with the (now illegal) Cineform command line tool that allows us to use the RED with our existing workflow in an acceptable speed (and equal quality as produced by RedCine and RedAlert).

Don't get me wrong - to have RedCine on the set on my MacBook Pro is golden and it represents a huge value. But our workflow is based on Cineform RAW for specific reasons and is not going to change.

[Paolo Tinari]

I cant believe this.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

means apple...yeah color will be able to do 4k and can read r3d files natively and/...or a redcode 444 will be editable in fcp..something like cineforms 444...hehe

[Andrew M.]

So PC platform have to use SCRATCH for 50K+

I am not happy.................

Mean time, can we have REDCINE fixed so it works with NVIDIA 8700 and 8800 please?

[Jay A. Kelley]

I was told this would happen by a lot of people on this forum. I kept saying "Jim will keep his word" and so many people said "uh, no he won't".

It will be difficult for me to believe anything RED says again.

I feel bad for those waiting for a solution other than MAC or Scratch.

This is not about what's best for us, the customer, that's for sure. This is about control.

This sucks. Jim, you promised. Spin it however you want.

Forget it, it's not even worth typing about.

Jay

[Cal Brunker]

It seems to me like this is a positive thing, albeit a drag for some. If they end up sending out all sorts of hackneyed workflow solutions that aren't tightly controlled, it risks making RED look like a joke to all the serious players (both studio, and software developers etc.)

Up till now, these guys have been doing their best to be open about the process, and bring us an amazing product at a price point that most of us can afford. I find it hard to slam them too hard for anything these days. Heck, yesterday we got 120fps, I don't see that on ANY other camera under 100k.

Up till now, they haven't let us down, and almost every decision they've made has been a good one. Hell yes I'm a fan boy, but only because I've shot on the RED, and I'm dying to shoot on it again.

Until they prove to be jackasses, lets trust that these decisions are serving both the company and the end user.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

It's all a matter of how long it will take.
Until we know better, it's better to trust Red.
Now if you feel you need to know the time it could take, it is a normal thing to ask for some kind of a time frame.

Here's to hoping

Emmanuel

[laguun]

Oh, dear. Very very very bad.

This will have -massive- negative impacts on the cameras acceptance and perception in all markets outside of the owners base.

The most important thing now is to give REDCINE an EDL interface -asap- or reds workflow will be stuck in propietary beta, while -every- other camera has functional, full quality, realtime workflow.

[laguun]

It seems to me like this is a positive thing, albeit a drag for some. If they end up sending out all sorts of hackneyed workflow solutions that aren't tightly controlled, it risks making RED look like a joke to all the serious players (both studio, and software developers etc.)

Its certainly not positive when red has to delay its planning.
I agree that a instable workflow will scare many players. The problem is: Right now anyone who is not really expert -has- an unstable workflow out of the box.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Until they prove to be jackasses, lets trust that these decisions are serving both the company and the end user.

I believe they have proven NOT to be jackasses, a long long time ago...:)

[Brent J. Craig]

...and now we know why the new firmware has "Encryption of camera LOOK and LOG files."

Jim, if you've gone all Apple on us and locked the doors, please at least remember how much the 'little guys' have contributed to the community.

I hope and expect that once the dust settles you will allow everyone who has something to contribute access to the necessary code, file formats and encryption keys. And not just for those with official or approved projects, but for everybody. You would be shocked and surprised what some of us will come up with, given the keys to do it.

I truly believe open source development is the future and find it sad that you appear to be going the other way. You just might be surprised how much your loyal users could add to the utility and value of your systems at NO expense to your company. Let me restate that: Open sourcing your development gives you features and code for free!

Might I suggest having your official partners and certified software, but also allowing an unsupported open source branch of development?

It won't be much of a revolution if corporate America has all the keys. :-)

[Christian Edwards]

i kinda on the fence with this one , would be great to see "partners" adopt the red workflow but will they also adopt the red spirit

[Steve Sanacore]

...and now we know why the new firmware has "Encryption of camera LOOK and LOG files."

Jim, if you've gone all Apple on us and locked the doors, please at least remember how much the 'little guys' have contributed to the community.

I hope and expect that once the dust settles you will allow everyone who has something to contribute access to the necessary code, file formats and encryption keys. And not just for those with official or approved projects, but for everybody. You would be shocked and surprised what some of us will come up with, given the keys to do it.

I truly believe open source development is the future and find it sad that you appear to be going the other way. You just might be surprised how much your loyal users could add to the utility and value of your systems at NO expense to your company. Let me restate that: Open sourcing your development gives you features and code for free!

Might I suggest having your official partners and certified software, but also allowing an unsupported open source branch of development?

It won't be much of a revolution if corporate America has all the keys. :-)

I agree in spirit but I am not sure RED can afford to have novices trying to write software to render their raw images. Wouldn't they lose control of the quality?

[Joel Kaye]

Seems like a year ago FCP could run redcode on the timeline... There's still no R3D Color support. What progress is being made by Apple?

Ya know - a lot of great stuff is open source. Nobody cares if everything changes... developers can choose to play along knowing that will be the case if they want to. Users can test stuff knowing it might break in a week or the quality might stink.

No need to keep everyone "safe".

This is just software. The time space continuum is not at risk.

[David Groundwater]

dreadful news. just transferred half of the $32,000 i'm spending with you. feeling pretty crap about this. why should i have to buy a mac and fcp to use this camera? it's just not on. so much for the democratisation of film making.

[Christian Edwards]

Adobe .... TRUE 4k solution

[number6]

For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

Is this an ichyPod Chrane issue? Did you make a bad bargain with the :devil: headless horseman:holloween: and now the:holloween: headless horseman:devil: demands his due?

[Brent J. Craig]

I agree in spirit but I am not sure RED can afford to have novices trying to write software to render their raw images. Wouldn't they lose control of the quality?

Open source development tends to follow 'survival of the fittest' rules. Why would someone choose to use firmware/software that gave them crap? The best ideas, coding and techniques tend to rise to the top. Less capable branches are killed off or improved further by the community.

[planet e]

Jim, you promised. Cut it however you want.


...have to agree this round. one of the things that i have long admired about this company is its integrity. this seems like a betrayal.

the camera seems to be working great. new features, new functions. the camera is great.

the workflow options, not so great.

this isn't just RED, it's the chokehold around the entire industry. i was reviewing some HDV footage yesterday that looked simply stunning on the monitor and could feel myself choking at the thought of outputting it to crappy SD-DVD to deliver to the client.

really, we don't even need better cameras anymore. the camera options out there are cooked, done, stick a fork in it.

we need better workflows and better delivery systems, period.

workflow and delivery seem light years behind what these cameras can do.

and RED's workflow options seem especially frustrating, because of who RED promised to be...why put the genie back in the bottle??????

seems like opening up the workflow sooner than later is the fast track to a great workflow.

[Joel Kaye]

why should i have to buy a mac and fcp to use this camera? it's just not on. so much for the democratisation of film making.

It does suck, but I sold my Mac and bought a PC in order to edit my HD-100 because I was convinced (and still am) it was a much better camera than the HVX. Now I've got a RED and I'm convinced it's a much better camera than anything I've ever shot. So whatever computer I need I'll get. I'm computer agnostic.

But it's clear to me RED doesn't work great on any computer yet... I think they need all the developer help they can get so I don't really understand this unless something else is going on.

[Charles Perkins]

I was told this would happen by a lot of people on this forum. I kept saying "Jim will keep his word" and so many people said "uh, no he won't".

It will be difficult for me to believe anything RED says again.

I feel bad for those waiting for a solution other than MAC or Scratch.

This is not about what's best for us, the customer, that's for sure. This is about control.

This sucks. Jim, you promised. Cut it however you want.

Forget it, it's not even worth typing about.

Jay

wow lol.

thats quite a lot of angst you have there.

Its been said from the beginning that red would work best on apple stuff first, but you went and built a PC.

It has also been said that red intend to support windows as well. if you cant wait you should have got a mac.

I'm sure that in the future that .r3d will work on a pc in premier or something, but if it is that important fro you, why didn't you buy a mac?

and you can always use redcine to output a format that you can work with/

[Matt Gottshalk]

...have to agree this round. one of the things that i have long admired about this company is its integrity. this seems like a betrayal.

the camera seems to be working great. new features, new functions. the camera is great.

the workflow options, not so great.

this isn't just RED, it's the chokehold around the entire industry. i was reviewing some HDV footage yesterday that looked simply stunning on the monitor and could feel myself choking at the thought of outputting it to crappy SD-DVD to deliver to the client.

really, we don't even need better cameras anymore. the camera options out there are cooked, done, stick a fork in it.

we need better workflows and better delivery systems, period.

workflow and delivery seem light years behind what these cameras can do.

and RED's workflow options seem especially frustrating, because of who RED promised to be...why put the genie back in the bottle??????

seems like opening up the workflow sooner than later is the fast track to a great workflow.

I have to agree with this. Hell, I AM a mac user, but leaving PC users out in the cold, where there only viable processing solution is SCRATCH is ridiculous.

Choices are good.

Proprietary work flows are not.

[David Groundwater]

Now I've got a RED and I'm convinced it's a much better camera than anything I've ever shot. So whatever computer I need I'll get. I'm computer agnostic.

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

[Jeff Brue]

Sometimes I wonder if everyone realizes how cutting edge Red and other daq camera teams are. As far as workflow is concerned, this is the way it is for now guys. Panasonics mxf format didn't work in all editing apps for well over a year, and hell I still can't get proper support of 10 bit RGB material in Final Cut, and no Adobe doesn't do everything particuarly well either.

Like it or not this is the right way to do it. If it wasn't Scratch it would be a lot more expensive than it is. No Apple's color is not an option, their core rendering has major rounding issues.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hey Guys… Chill out :)

Jim is just saying it is delayed.
As is FW 16, and I'm certain this is related.
They just said they need to rework RedCine and RedAlert and all R3D file managment to make it compatible with what's coming with FW 16.

So unless Jim says 3rd party support is not gonna happen in the next 6 months or so, there is nothing to get mad about…YET.

Emmanuel

[Stuart English]

...and now we know why the new firmware has "Encryption of camera LOOK and LOG files."

Jim, if you've gone all Apple on us and locked the doors, please at least remember how much the 'little guys' have contributed to the community.

I respect your opinion, but all I can suggest is that however you came to this conclusion, you go back and re-read Jim's post.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

That's a f…n' funny thing to read.

Thanks

Emmanuel

[laguun]

wow lol.
Its been said from the beginning that red would work best on apple stuff first, but you went and built a PC.

It has also been said that red intend to support windows as well. if you cant wait you should have got a mac.

I'm sure that in the future that .r3d will work on a pc in premier or something, but if it is that important fro you, why didn't you buy a mac?


Apple Final Cut is limited to 2K. The camera is 4K. You have to -hack- it to near 4K.

Apple color doesnt work with redcode, and is also restricted to 2K.

Final Cut doesn not support 12bit RGB, or 10bit RGB. It supports 8bit.

The redcode online/finishing solution is on Windows, not available for osx.
All 4K realtime systems are not on apple, but on windows and linux.

Adobe CS3 supports 4K. With 16/15bit RGB precision. All these technical limitations Apple has for RED are solved there. Only RED still doesnt allow support for redcode, even if it is 100% clear that Adobe CS isnt limiting the red camera in quality, Apple FCS is.

I wouldnt care if i would buy a pc from apple withosx or a pc from boxx with windows or a hewlett-packard with linux.

The problems is - we dont have a redcode 4K editing on -neither- platform, only a offline editing on osx and a 2K display on windows an an price point which locks out almost any user below studios of our size. We can buy $$$.$$$ systems if i need so, and have several here. But the postproduction "solution" as it is now is simply to much of a step backward compared to the workflows we have now.

[Andrew M.]

wow lol.



and you can always use redcine to output a format that you can work with/

You must be kidding!?

Try to use REDCINE on PC to output any format like TIF or DPX.
I wish you good luck, because you will need a lot of it to finish even 4 minutes clip.

[Brent J. Craig]

I respect your opinion, but all I can suggest is that however you came to this conclusion, you go back and re-read Jim's post.

So encrypting stuff has absolutely no relation to protecting big partners and locking out smaller innovators?

[Joel Kaye]

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

Heh - me too. I'm not saying it doesn't suck... in my case I haven't bought a computer in a couple years so I'm kinda due anyway. I've been holding off specifically because of RED. I knew I'd update based on what happened. I still can see that a PC with Cineform may be a superior solution to Mac and FCP when it arrives.

Really, if you want to play well with others it'll help to have both platforms - and with a Mac you've got bootcamp. Well, theoretically - I'm not sure how well that really works.

[Steve Sanacore]

Open source development tends to follow 'survival of the fittest' rules. Why would someone choose to use firmware/software that gave them crap? The best ideas, coding and techniques tend to rise to the top. Less capable branches are killed off or improved further by the community.

If this is true, then I am in agreement with opening it up to the public for solutions. One thing is certain - there needs to be a fast and universal solution to post the raw data.

[Anthony Gratl]

seems like opening up the workflow sooner than later is the fast track to a great workflow.

It's the best way to go. With crewpix's idea of a two headed approach a second. The best and quickest advancements will be the result. Anything else is just lipservice. You can see the very quick results from indi developers on this board alone: redtrip, metacheater, crimson......and there are collaborations going on with these 'little' apps from very smart coders, discussions on the board about the apps and potential add-ons, bugs and fixes, thinking and processing, exponentially quad coring the power of human ingenuity through instant communication. And that's just what I've seen on reduser as far as attacking these workflow problems. This is progress. However, this decision by Jim, this doesn't have anything to do with making sure we the customers are safe, and rather that Red the company has control.
To those of you who think this is "fine sure great Jim thanks a lot" time, you're misguided, and possibly don't get the implications of this decision. This has nothing to do with "perfecting a bulletproof workflow or preventing a catastrophe".

This is about control, and that's the catastrophe. The real revolution is about everyone participating, not a select few. This is devolution.

Just let the software go Jim, and be a true revolutionary.

[laguun]

I'm sure that in the future that .r3d will work on a pc in premier or something, but if it is that important fro you, why didn't you buy a mac?

because fcp/mac has no 4K online solution and is offline or 2K, probably.
At least thats why we arent happy with our macs and fcps as online solution here.

To underline this: We own FCP, since rel 2. We use it on the macs. However it cant offer the image quality for cine-post red offers. You can work in YUV (cinema is RGB or x´y´z), you can work in 2K (red has 4k). You can hack FCP to squeeze more resolution (still no 4k) out of it. This might be ok for indies with lots of time, but is it certainly unacceptable for us.



and you can always use redcine to output a format that you can work with/
Redcine is very buggy still, and is missing EDL functionality as of yet.

The camera is excellent, the postworkflow is right now a mess for any smaller house. We can throw massive hardware at it and fix it, but also this is unnecessary. the situation right now is pretty much having a lamborghini with scooter-tires.

It would be -completly- different if apple would have a 4K/10or12bit RGB FCP and color would be apble to work with red. Or if assimilate would have adapted to the new market prices and offer a red specific variant. Both is not the case, so any delay of 3hrd parties who will and can (or almost have. as cineform) solve these extremly problematic issues is very bad news.

[laguun]

This is about control, and that's the catastrophe. The real revolution is about everyone participating, not a select few. This is devolution.

Just let the software go Jim, and be a true revolutionary.

I fully agree.
Also, the camera was promoted to have an open workflow. Now this is the exact opposite. Instead of putting manpower into 3hrd party support, files are encrypted.

[Anthony Gratl]

If this is true, then I am in agreement with opening it up to the public for solutions. One thing is certain - there needs to be a fast and universal solution to post the raw data.

It's absolutely true. You're not going to use software that doesn't work right? The fastest way to achieve a universal solution to posting the raw data, is to let the coders at the code. All of them. More people tackling problems to create seamless workflows.

[Jay A. Kelley]

You guys are wasteing your breath in a big way.

This decision was made long ago.

There a loads of solutions out there, come NAB you will see them. But if RED get's their way, it will be a very long time before you can use them.

Jay

[Graeme Nattress]

No, the best way is to release a stable, fully thought out SDK that decodes the files properly, at a known high quality, and let people build tools from that.

We need to be able to continue to work and improve on the raw files that the camera generates, and to ensure that they don't break on the post worklfow on a new change, we need to ensure all tools go through our SDK.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

Jay, we're trying to do things both fast, and properly. But in the end, "properly" wins over "fast".

Graeme

[Jay A. Kelley]

No, the best way is to release a stable, fully thought out SDK that decodes the files properly, at a known high quality, and let people build tools from that.

We need to be able to continue to work and improve on the raw files that the camera generates, and to ensure that they don't break on the post worklfow on a new change, we need to ensure all tools go through our SDK.

Graeme

OK Graeme that's very nice of you guys.. Just promise me that RED's not planning to release their own product as well and I will believe you.

:)

jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay, we're trying to do things both fast, and properly. But in the end, "properly" wins over "fast".

Graeme

Graeme, I am pretty sure when I tell you I can speak for a few people here when I say we don't need any more parents than the ones we already have.

You cannot protect people from making bad pictures, and the companies that create software for decoding r3d files will simply have to fix them every time you make a change, that's how it works, and you know that better than most.

As for quality, give me a break. Try to find a more picky group of people than REDUsers, if the software we use does not measure up, then we'll get something else.

This is not about quality... Well, it may be to YOU, but not to everyone.. This is about money and control. And we will suffer for it.

Jay

Damit, I told myself I would not get into this debate online again.. It's pointless and anything I say will be a waste of time. Bottom line, this decision has been made long ago, and nothing I say is going to make a bit of difference. I'm not stupid. I can tell which way the wind's blowing here.

[Graeme Nattress]

To me, it's always been about quality.

Graeme

[Andrew M.]

This sounds like another year and SDK version 0.96

[George A.]

This is definitely bad.

[Jannard]

Maybe you ought to wait for the details and schedule before going hyper-histrionic?

Jim

[Andrew M.]

I wanted to get RAW port on RED from the beginning but we were told that RED RAW is as good as RAW RAW data out of the sensor and all improvements of the REDCODE in the future will be backward compatible so no point of storing RAW RAW since there will not be any improvement of quality in the future that will not be able to work on the old REDRAW data.

Now I see that the high speed RAW port is not the option anymore on the camera and the RAW RAW data is locked and encrypted and you are trapped in to the RED RAW.

I hope that it is just genuine care to give the software development good start but it smells very very bad.

[Joe Carney]

Graeme, I am pretty sure when I tell you I can speak for a few people here when I say we don't need any more parents than the ones we already have.

You cannot protect people from making bad pictures, and the companies that create software for decoding r3d files will simply have to fix them every time you make a change, that's how it works, and you know that better than most.

As for quality, give me a break. Try to find a more picky group of people than REDUsers, if the software we use does not measure up, then we'll get something else.

This is not about quality... Well, it may be to YOU, but not to everyone.. This is about money and control. And we will suffer for it.

Jay

Damit, I told myself I would not get into this debate online again.. It's pointless and anything I say will be a waste of time. Bottom line, this decision has been made long ago, and nothing I say is going to make a bit of difference. I'm not stupid. I can tell which way the wind's blowing here.

If you had actually ever wrote software for a living, you would realize how full of sh$t you've been on this thread.
Like it or not, Red has the right to make the rules on how companies and individuals access THEIR assets.
As someone who writes software...I want stable and reliable. I don't like them closing up things either, but at this point I can understand them wanting to retain control. Greame is correct in his assestment of what most developers want. They do not want a moving target that breaks existing code unless there is a damn good reason...

You sure don't have any idea what their future plans are, nor do you know what their competitors are trying to do.
There certainly are alternatives to Scratch.
Try looking at Fusion or Nuke. Both powerful compositing apps on the PC. Both with powerful 3rd party plug-ins for Color Correction and keying.... Both with excellent support of OpenEXR and DPX (much better than After Effects btw). And both considerable less expensive than Scratch.

They both can make excellent additions to Adobe CS3 suite. Both have a single seat MSRP of under 5K USD. Both make excellent use of OpenGL, with Fusion operating on less expensive platforms if you can't afford a high end Quadro FX. You can download a PLE version of Fusion with no time limit. btw, Fusion works just fine with Vista64 last time I checked.

I don't know what the limitations of the upcoming release of Nuke are,but it supports Stereo 3D compositing....

When you go to NAB, check them out and ask questions.

Making unfounded accusations against people is really lame.

[Dj Joofa]

No, the best way is to release a stable, fully thought out SDK that decodes the files properly, at a known high quality, and let people build tools from that.

Graeme

Does that mean the SDK will be freely available for anybody, much like the Adobe SDK for After Effects and Premiere?

[Jared VanLeuven]

Graeme,

How far out is an SDK? I imagine it'll be at least dependent on the progress you make in Build 16. Perhaps NAB?

[Rudi Herbert]

No, the best way is to release a stable, fully thought out SDK that decodes the files properly, at a known high quality, and let people build tools from that.

Well, you see, that's where things get interesting. What might be acceptable quality for you might be unacceptable to others. So, going with the assumption that you want to insure a certain quality that cannot deteriorate once people start playing with it, then yes, you need to make sure you release a rock solid SDK. But what if others were able to squeeze better quality out of the same files? This is not to put down the amazing work RED and Graemme have done on their code, but assuming others could not do as well, or perhaps even better, is not conducive to a quest for quality above everything else. Then again, now the RAW port is not an option, all anybody else can really do is modify what you already give them, so the code, in terms of visual fidelity and quality can never get better, only easier and quicker to manipulate, not NOT better. So the issue of quality starts and ends with RED, and that being the case, then yes, take your time because REDCODE is still far too noisy in the blue channel and a tad too compressed for heavy compositing and FX work.

[Michael Hastings]

They know the code much more than we could ever guess and we should definitely trust that they want to make 3rd party developers' lives easier, not nightmarish.

And president bush knew so much more than we did, so we were just supposed to accept that Iraq was a major, clear and present danger, in spite of all evidence to the contrary from UN inspectors, constant, overflight and in spite of the historic ingrained animosity between Saddam and the Al-Qaeda types (and the pentagon itself just released an in depth report confirming what most of us knew that made even a cursory investigation all along about the utter lack of any level of Al-qaeda presence in or connection to Iraq.)

Sorry to get political, but at some point you have to evaluate the unknown based on the known. And while I am not ACCUSING RED of duplicity, I am questioning based on these examples:

1) RED did little or nothing to inform Birger of the critical changes to the mounting setup. Even though they used Birger as a major PR announcement at NAB 2007, and whose smart EOS EF mount I believe has made RED a practical purchase choice for a couple hundred users that couldn't have made good sense out of RED without it.

2) The delay of the RED Nikon mount, which by all rights should have been available either concurrently with or just a few weeks after the introduction of the adjustable PL mount. I know this through a knowledge of manufacturing but it was also proved by Doug Underdahl who made a working Nikon mount in a matter of two or three days and has already delivered several of them to RED owners. And again the Nikon made RED a practical choice for many.

3) The implementation in Build 15 of "Rejection of unqualified media". I bought a CF Lexar 300x UDMA card in a group buy with some others from Steven Soderburgh's production company, which were used to shoot his film with RED; were represented as working with the latest build; and seemed to have the approval of RED since they have been advertised on REDUSER for almost two months. CF is not really practical for my underwater shooting, but I wanted one for emergencies/quick shoot and to do firmware upgrades. I also asked several days ago on the "state of CF thread" if the 300x 16 gig cards were usable for 2K even if they couldn't handle 4K as the combo of 16gig and 2K might extend time enough to make CF useful and to my knowledge got no answer. Then yesterday, I see that the new build rejects unqualified media. But it appears only RED media is qualified. Are all of those people that bought one of the 200 cards from soderburgh now SOL? and what is the real situation with CF and qualification i.e. will we see any other cards qualified? Can any be qualified for less than 4K?

RED makes a camera that is truly shifting the paradigm for extreme high resolution imagery/price point and that is good enough that I am okay if they just say "Hey, were a business not that much different than Sony or Panasonic where we have a balance between what is good for the customer and what is good for us and we're going to make product introduction and marketing decisions that sell more of our PL lenses, or CF cards, or matte boxes or whatever - that's life - deal with it." But it's not okay that they represent themselves as this revolutionary, ultra open, super interactive company yet do the things that I mentioned above, or as another example have a warranty policy that is completely out of the ordinary in our industry and frankly, in my mind, abusive now that cameras are shipping in quantity.

I'm very excited about the possibilities for RED (will be shooting sharks in 4K very soon) and I have been promoting it heavily among my customers and have been directly responsible for at least a dozen RED orders.

But I would like to put these nagging questions behind me. So I for one would like to see a clear, in depth, not a 3 line post on REDUSER statement from RED, preferably by Jim, on what happened with the above and what the 3rd party philosophy really is ... (I've been trying for six months to get some help from RED with VF cables as it would be so much easier for RED's contract manufacturer to do it than anyone else given that I don't think anyone else in the world uses 16 conductor DVI with circular LEMO, and it is extremely hard to use those kind of conductors with such a small connector without serious manufacturing equipment). Should we give up on 1) assistance from RED on 3rd party accessories; 2) assistance with what is necessary for specialty applications like steadicam, crane, remote cams, crash cams, U/W cams, live production cams, etc. like a remote CCU, longer cables, etc. (that aren't that hard - just require a midlevel type employee to work on and follow up on) like what we have always gotten from Sony, Panasonic, Ikegami, etc. 3) a normal resale warranty policy 4) on a workable desktop, less than $20K workflow and 5) will parts like the plastic V on the battery plate which seems to be the source of total unreliability of power on a camera that requires a minute or more to boot up when it suddenly flips off, or the floppy quick release mount plate, etc. ... be replaced no charge? Etc. Etc.

I have run a small company and worked with dozens of others for over 25 years, so I have taken into consideration the difficulties of small startups and think all of these are reasonable questions/expectations even setting aside the obvious extremely deep pockets of the founder.

My apologies for the long post, and I hope this does not come across as more harsh than I mean. It would be easier in a personal meeting to know how sincere I am in not wanting to offend, but to encourage RED to be the best company it can be and live up to the promise of the REVOLUTION as many of us perceived it a couple of years ago.

[Joe Carney]

You make some excellent points Aqua. Other than the issue with Birger and the CF cards I disagree though.

RED is a small company.
Having to deal with unapproved media from angry customers can/would get very expensive. There isn't anything preventing
cf card makers working with RED to get certified.

Having to deal with developers making their own custom changes to Red core software would also be a disaster
in terms of customer and vendor relations. Can you imagine Red support trying to figure what software you are using
when you need help? Would anyone accept 'not our problem' when a customer uses an bug ridden independently developed
core that only the developer fully understands, and suddenly abandons because of all the whining?

We also don't know what they will do in the future.

I to am disappointed over Jims announcement, but they have not shown any indication of trying to screw anybody at anytime.

[David Battistella]

why should i have to buy a mac and fcp to use this camera? it's just not on. so much for the democratisation of film making.

mac or PC is the best investment you can make. If you bought an F-900 how would you like to have to buy a 100K deck to watch your footage.

You can watch your footage in the camera if you do not want to buy a computer and just pass your drives off to a post house (the way you would a tape) if you do not want to deal with the shot footage.

Try watching something the equivalent of 4K RED footage on the cheapest easiest machine everyone in the civilized world owns.

A PC.

David

[Jay A. Kelley]

Maybe you ought to wait for the details and schedule before going hyper-histrionic?

Jim

Uh Jim, you're post (The one that just started this little sh$t storm) gave no hint of further details or schedule.

And if memory serves you already provided a schedule and intent, which you have now changed completely, so what point would announceing another one serve?

If you keep saying "We're gonna do this" and then you don't, then saying it again will have less weight the second time around.

That's just human nature.

Jay

[Obin Olson]

My workflow is Cineform also so I am just hanging out till I can use my new RED camera....

[Andrew M.]

Graeme,

How far out is an SDK? I imagine it'll be at least dependent on the progress you make in Build 16. Perhaps NAB?


See first post.

"we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes"

"we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year"

I am not in rush though I can wait.
Just hope that one of these P or S companies will not come up with something similar.

What about buying 51% of FCP from Apple, don’t we have a rumors about them unwinding this business?

[Joel Kaye]

To me, it's always been about quality.


I think there's a lot of evidence for that. And frankly - I'd rather have you guys error on the side of quality. Well - speed is pretty important too.

It would be nice if you guys got Cineform in the loop. I think you could handle one more developer who's obviously very good at this stuff before you're done with a full blown SDK anyone can use.

Maybe that's the happy medium you guys could provide.

[mdo]

We need to ensure all tools go through our SDK.

Without an extraordinarily well thought-out SDK, it would be impossible for RED to implement significant advancements on an aggressive schedule without causing a lot of upset and grief. And if it were me developing the SDK, I would not want to have to coordinate a broad-based effort as that, in itself, would consume a substantial amount of time that should be spent on development and would slow down the process quite a bit. I would want just a few highly motivated, highly qualified teams working on it.

Red is focused on minimizing problems in post that can be traced to an incompatibility between an older version of a software tool and an r3d file generated by a recent build, while making their development process as simple as possible. Imagine the noise that would occur if an incompatibility showed up in the middle of a post session of a project on deadline for broadcast. I guess the Red guys like to be able to sleep at night.

I don't know what other path they could take that would be faster or more effective than the current approach.

[David Wilson]

There are some 6 or 7 weeks before 2343 ships to see where all of this is heading. Hopefully that is enough time. I am pretty seriously committed to the Adobe CS/CineForm workflow that has looked so very promising thus far.

I have spent my life in iterations of the moving image and very much want to be part of this vastly important and hugely needed democratization of the medium.

[Anthony Gratl]

I bought a CF Lexar 300x UDMA card in a group buy with some others from Steven Soderburgh's production company, which were used to shoot his film with RED; were represented as working with the latest build; and seemed to have the approval of RED since they have been advertised on REDUSER for almost two months. CF is not really practical for my underwater shooting, but I wanted one for emergencies/quick shoot and to do firmware upgrades. I also asked several days ago on the "state of CF thread" if the 300x 16 gig cards were usable for 2K even if they couldn't handle 4K as the combo of 16gig and 2K might extend time enough to make CF useful and to my knowledge got no answer. [

Is this true? Do the soderbergh cards not work in build 15? Can someone please confirm this?

[Steve Freebairn]

Ok, I'm a little disappointed in the timeline, but I can't really see how people are freaking out so bad on Red/Jim, when they have bent over backwards on so many issues. Give them time, send an email, make a phone call, but accusing people on a forum doesn't do a lot of good.

Greed/power/money accusations are probably pretty offensive to someone who could have charged a ton more money, but didn't so that the camera could be more accessible to everyone.

I want Adobe support as much as everyone else, but that's not the way it is working at this time, a 2800 dollar mac pro is actually quite a nice machine (yeah, I enjoy building my own PCs too, but for 2800 you're getting a solid machine with some serious power). I hope that the PC side gets more attention.

1. A PC quicktime codec for Red so we can play back proxy files would do wonders for the PC side.

2. Better Redcine support on the PC side.

those 2 things would almost level the playing field, if I could play proxy files, then I could use Premiere or Vegas on the PC to edit and then use Ibloom's soon to be released program to get DPXs out of Redcine.

[jbeale]

It is an old story. Red is their baby. They brought her up, and they want the best for her. They are dreading the thought of Red leaving the house and going out on dates with seedy characters, maybe getting a bad reputation, and even worse, people criticizing her parents for the sketchy behavior.

Ok, forget the cute analogies. We have one case study so far: the Cineform R3D2DPX solution. It was posted Jan. 16 2008: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=138517#post138517

Later that day, Graeme pointed out the image quality shortcomings with the third-party debayer, complete with still frame examples. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=138650&postcount=23 ...after seeing that comparison, many redusers spoke up and said R3D2DPX was poor quality, and they would not use it.

The following day, 1/17 David responded with an updated R3D2DPX version http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=139204&postcount=86
complete with other still frame examples. I'm not going to comment myself on what those still frame examples showed but look at them yourself, if you like.

At that point, Jim objected to the existence of R3D2DPX and there were quite a few rather emotional posts. The following day, 1/18, R3D2DPX was withdrawn, and the thread was closed. So ended that short chapter in RED history. What can we learn from it?

Probably lots of things, but the one I'd like to highlight is that development of useful tools can proceed very rapidly, if given the chance. I do hope that whatever concerns exist about outside development can be addressed, so that everyone can enjoy the benefits from it. I presume that is what the Red team is working on with their SDK... I'm looking forward to that day.

[Nicholas Shields]

Jim:

Keep up the great work. We've shot several projects on the RED with very few workflow issues - far fewer than film, with great results at a lower price point. Things can only get better. Bravo for not getting drawn into these distracting pissing matches.

Nick.

[Jarred Land]

Imagine the noise that would occur if an incompatibility showed up in the middle of a post session of a project on deadline for broadcast.

this is probably the most important point in this thread.

[Deanan]

There is general lack of understanding about what exactly goes into a development cycle and especially a highly accelerated development cycle. Things are changing significantly from builds 14 to 16 and each time it requires a huge amount of work to update the current tools (RA, RC, RL, QT, Scratch, FCP). Everytime we have a new build that has format, color or processing changes, our partners scream BLOODY MURDER because it sucks up alot their time to keep up support for just one camera workflow. Now imagine if we scale that instantly to 30 partners... not only would every single one of those partners be pissed off, but they'd each be clamoring for custom requests and fixes. At that point everybody loses, especially the customer because the partners will be dropping like flies.

There is no conspiracy here. We have a number of partners already slated for supporting and have been in discussions with them for months. Partners such as Avid, Adobe, Cineform, etc. We already have firm development plans in place with some partners.

[Clint Johnson]

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

Jim, you had to have known how much you would piss some folk off and I can just see you taking a couple Advil before hitting "Submit Post".

Okay, Red is your company and you are going to run it as you see best. You gave a tentative timeline for opening R3D along with the standard caveat that things can and will change. I don't think you broke any promises nor do I think you are doing anything duplicitous.

It will be late and I'm sure that it will be worth it.

That said, I respectfully disagree with what I see as an overprotective stance with the post workflow. Once it comes out of the camera I think the material should be ours to do with as we please, even if it isn't up to your (or my) standards... or even if it breaks it completely.

I personally feel that the only ones that you have to ensure compatibility with, or bulletproof workflows for, should be your tier one partners- while everyone else should be able to play at their own risk. If your improving R3D breaks anything they are making then it would be up to them to fix it or not- their problem, not yours.

[Jason Ing]

If you keep saying "We're gonna do this" and then you don't, then saying it again will have less weight the second time around.

That's just human nature.

Jay

When did Jim "NOT" do something he said he would? (Other then schedule issues, which is understandable considering what he and the Red Team is accomplishing that no other company has been able to do.)

Human nature is also shooting your mouth off before thinking, making inflammatory statements from a position of ignorance, and feeling disgruntled and whining about not getting your way exactly when you want it. All of which I see on this thread and others and I've been guilty of as well.

[Joel Kaye]

There is no conspiracy here. We have a number of partners already slated for supporting and have been in discussions with them for months. Partners such as Avid, Adobe, Cineform, etc. We already have firm development plans in place with some partners.

Fair enough, works for me. Keep up the good work.

[Jannard]

That said, I respectfully disagree with what I see as an overprotective stance with the post workflow. Once it comes out of the camera I think the material should be ours to do with as we please, even if it isn't up to your (or my) standards... or even if it breaks it completely.

I personally feel that the only ones that you have to ensure compatibility with, or bulletproof workflows for, should be your tier one partners- while everyone else should be able to play at their own risk. If your improving R3D breaks anything they are making then it would be up to them to fix it or not- their problem, not yours.

Please read Deanan's post just above yours. Until you have had to deal with these issues directly, and understand personally how difficult it has been with just two partners, I don't think you could ever fully appreciate how traumatic it would be with attempting to keep 30 partners up to date through this "everything is changing" time.

We know what you all want. We plan to give it to you. But we plan to do that when it causes the least amount of grief to us and the community.

I have to assume that the ones that are screaming the loudest have absolutely no understanding of what we are up against here.

We have delivered more than we promised when people placed their deposits. We expect that trend to continue. But there needs to be a little consideration for our viewpoint. We do not want to hear "SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER" from 30 partners.

Jim

[Steve Freebairn]

There is general lack of understanding about what exactly goes into a development cycle and especially a highly accelerated development cycle. Things are changing significantly from builds 14 to 16 and each time it requires a huge amount of work to update the current tools (RA, RC, RL, QT, Scratch, FCP). Everytime we have a new build that has format, color or processing changes, our partners scream BLOODY MURDER because it sucks up alot their time to keep up support for just one camera workflow. Now imagine if we scale that instantly to 30 partners... not only would every single one of those partners be pissed off, but they'd each be clamoring for custom requests and fixes. At that point everybody loses, especially the customer because the partners will be dropping like flies.

There is no conspiracy here. We have a number of partners already slated for supporting and have been in discussions with them for months. Partners such as Avid, Adobe, Cineform, etc. We already have firm development plans in place with some partners.

Can you confirm that you've got firm plans with Adobe?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I just have to say that I'm disappointed about another delay, but we should be used to them by now... Right?

People are blowing this way out of proportion, IMO. I will reserve judgement until I see the details of SDKs, tiered development partnerships, etc...

[Michael Morlan]

I certainly understand the challenge the RED team is faced with and agree with their approach given the constraints.

As a PC user, I would most appreciate prioritizing a Quicktime ability in Windows so I can edit in Premiere or Vegas.

Michael

[planet e]

We have a number of partners already slated for supporting and have been in discussions with them for months. Partners such as Avid, Adobe, Cineform, etc. We already have firm development plans in place with some partners.

That sounds promising--it may have helped avoid some conflict to have included this info in the original post...

I can only assume that the partner screaming BLOODY MURDER is Apple, but we should be the ones screaming at them, for how slow they seem to be on the uptake. Their glacial movement on the HD revolution has been an endless source of frustration to their end-users.

[Jannard]

Can you confirm that you've got firm plans with Adobe?

Yes.

Jim

[Deanan]

Can you confirm that you've got firm plans with Adobe?

yes...