Hi everyone.
Anybody knows if RED is working on an updated driver for the Red Rocket X on Mac OS Catalina? The old drivers don't seem to be compatible, so my card is sitting there, idle, and editing has grown substantially slower.
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Hi everyone.
Anybody knows if RED is working on an updated driver for the Red Rocket X on Mac OS Catalina? The old drivers don't seem to be compatible, so my card is sitting there, idle, and editing has grown substantially slower.
I doubt it very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Laramée
The RED/Apple ecosystem continues to degrade...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Gundu
I assume the new mac pro will come ship with Catalina, it would be a shame if RED didn't update the drivers to sort it.
The card is 6 years old...and Catalina just released days ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann
Not at all. RED will be supporting all current hardware/software. The Rocket is EOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann
Speaking of which, is Mac Pro still coming? Been quiet on that front since what, May/June?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Gundu
Yup. And it will be made in Texas.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Meyer
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/...made-in-texas/
Not to beat a dead horse but it would be nice to be able to continue using the Rocket X. I don't care how much acceleration the new systems are getting, I'd love to still use the Rocket. It shouldn't be too difficult to just update the driver for Catalina...
Pretty Please! :ihih:
+1, FWIW. The new Mac Pro, for all the money it costs, still doesn't have a good 8K RED story RIGHT NOW. Maybe in 6 months, but today it appears to be a crippled platform that would greatly benefit from the 5 year old technology of the RR-X.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Ryan
Not to mention not all of us are on a new machine..Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann
I’m still using my trusty 2013 MBP to cut 8K Monstro footage.
https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...db&oe=5EB12303
If we all ask nicely, RED is usually amazing at trying to make it work. I believe it to be worthwhile and I don’t see why anyone who owns a Rocket X would stop using it even if the machine alone can handle it. Extra firepower is a good thing.
I admire your intestinal fortitude, especially with Premiere on OSX!Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Ryan
Hi all,
I just wanted to jump in here and hopefully put some of these questions to rest regarding development of RED ROCKET and RED ROCKET-X. Our Product Management and Support teams have put together the full details here: https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/articles/360033764054
Was hoping for Catalina compatibility too. I'm still on Mojave but will have to upgrade eventually. I love my RR-X, will be sad to see it go to waste.
Just curious about what the challenge is in getting the extensions and installer notarized, to make the installer work with Catalina and all following Mac operating systems into the foreseeable future? Granted, I don't know much about coding - but I'm assuming the process is fairly simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Harris
Not trying to shake the boat. Just figure that's the best way to leave a card that just entered EOL, especially for those of us who invested in the tech to not have $5K-$6K bricks sitting around when updating operating systems.
Brad,
Thankyou for chiming in - I had not realised RRX was EOL, with no RRX driver testing having taken place since MacOS Lion (10.7).
AJ
I just tried a quick experiment on Catalina 10.15.2 : MacPro 2013 (10 core) : Sonnet Echo Express III (TB2) : 8K Monstro R3D Footage
Resolve 16.1.2 : Makes use of the RRX :
>Memory and GPU : GPU Processing Mode : OpenCL (Metal seems to cause screen corruption errors)
>Decode Options : Use Rocket for : Decompression and Debayer
REDCINI-X PRO 51 : Makes use of the RRX :
Toggling between the ROCKET icon : Considerable speedup when Rocket active
FCP-X : 10.4.8 : Makes use of the RRX :
There seemed to be an issue : When playing a clip - it decoded while playing : Screen corruption when paused
More screen strangeness in 'Better Quality' mode than 'Better Performance'
- - - -
I then to reinstall the RRX driver (just to see if this is possible) : Answer NO : The Flat Package (PKG file) is 'Not Compatible' with this version of the OS.
I am not familiar with how this (zipped) packages can be broken down into smaller parts to work out where the script is failing.
It fails before it reaches the steps that would require PRIVACY SECURITY updates (mentioned on Red.com)
FCP-X : 10.4.8 : I then tried to re-apply the RED Apple Workflow (thinking that this would be a relatively safe test).
The aforementioned screen corruption seemed to now happen all the time in : Better Quality mode.
REDCINI-X PRO 51 : I hit a problem : Even though it reports that it can see the ROCKET-X .. it is NO LONGER possible to activate the Rocket ICON.
Even if you select 'x' in the Dialogue to use the Rocket ... when the dialogue is closed down ... the ROCKET is NOT used.
I am guessing this is a bug? Has anyone else found a way to turn this back on?
- -
Thoughts
+) I am guessing that the FCP-X issues I am seeing are related to the running out of memory on D700, now Apple are leveraging the GPU more with each release.
Better Performance must use less GPU Memory than Better Quality.
+) Workaround if it is not possible to install the Rocket-X driver on Catalina (ie that you want to install the ROCKET-X on another Mac)
I would suggest installing Mojave (10.14) first : Then install the RRX driver (ie the PKG file) : Then upgrade to the latest version of OSX
AJ
Don't waste your time. The RR-X drivers are simply not accepted by Catalina, whether you start them with a Mojave install (which I did) or whether you try magic on Catalina. Unless/until Red decides to write new drivers to keep our $7000 cards working, we are SOL on Catalina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony Newman
Thanks for the input Michael - I might persevere for a bit simply because REDCINI & RESOLVE were both usable on Catalina with RRX.
Additional test :
+) RED PLAYER 51
Fist time I have opened it up on Catalina : It works just fine with Rocket-X.
It defaults to having the ROCKET ICON active.
+) If I click on the ICON -> Popup "Rocket-x X Use for decodingDriver 2.1.34.0 ..."
+) If I space out (ie deactivate using the Rocket) - and close this popup, the buffer resets and I believe this this time it is not using the Rocket.
+) It is now Not possible to enable the Rocket Icon. I am guessing this is a bug?
Thoughts : Perhaps if I could find where the RED Config is stored - I could used a text editor and reset this / then restart the app?
AJ
I can understand Rocket being EOL, as it was replaced by RR-X. Nothing in official Apple ecosystem yet replaces RR-X, so EOL for RR-X is premature. If Afterburner handled R3D decode and debayer TODAY, I'd be happy to accept RR-X as EOL. But as things stand, Red+Apple is going backward, not forward. PC+RED is moving ahead by leaps and bounds, especially with AMD CPU and nVidia GPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Gundu
Update : 2020 Mar 7th : Scroll down to my next post in this thread to find the actual steps used to installed the RRX in Catalina.
=========
Michael,
As I am using RRX in Catalina - I am wondering if the problem that we are facing is that Apple have locked down the ability for install scripts to write to parts of the system area.
Could it be what you just need to temporarily deactivate SIP for the install script be allowed to run?
https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/ma...tless-3638975/
Summary of what temporary SIP deactivation looks like:
* Shutdown
* Hold command+R and press power
* Launch terminal
* csrutil disable
* Reboot
* Run RRX installer
* Shutdown
* Hold command+R and press power
* Launch terminal
* csrutil enable
* Reboot
MISC
+) I have not tried this on my machine as it currently works - but am keen to find out if this solve the problem.
+) If this gets past the 'package not compatible error' - then this SIP solved the specific problem I think was hampering the install.
+) In the event there is a Second level of security that is not governed by SIP - you might also need to go into System Prefs -> Security & Privacy -> General and 'allow' the installer to run (as outline in the RED help online)
+) If we are not able get the installation to work - it may be that can manually copy the 'kext' file (ie the OS extension) directly into the directory.
AJ
Can confirm that the Terminal workaround didn't work.
Gillian,
Thankyou for your feedback. It might useful to liaise with RED and share your performance details with them, as it may be in their interest to compile the steps needed to allow RRX Drivers to be installed in Catalina (especially as the RRX works in Catalina once the drivers are installed).
In the same position - I would either install Yosemite (ie a version of OSX that I could get the Red Package to install without intervention) and then reinstall Catalina - or 'HACK' the Rocket Driver in manually (which should be sufficient if there is no 'handshaking' between the rocket and the OS required as part the setup).
I will cobble together steps (off the net) for a manual 'Kext' Install in my next post. **
AJ
** UPDATE : 1 x Person succeeded in getting the RRX work in Catalina using these steps
RED-ROCKET-X INSTALL in MacOS CATALINA
UPDATE : 2020 JUL 17 : Worked for 3 x People
As mentioned here at the steps involved in Manually Installing a 3rd Party Kernel Extension in Catalina
(Refs for steps at the bottom of the thread)
STAGE 1 : Get Kernel Extension(‘kext’ file ready)
+) Download redrocketx.kext.zip file from : https://we.tl/t-OuwHI9H9U1 <--- Only here for 1 week!
(this file will exist for the next 7 days in WeTransfer)
+) Decompress redrocketx.kext.zip on Desktop
+) Go into ‘Terminal’ App
+) Change directory to Desktop in ‘Terminal’
cd /Users/YOURUSERNAME/Desktop
(replace 'YOURUSERNAME' with your Desktop user name)
STAGE 2 : Before installing Kexts, disable Gate Keeper and mount the System Partition as Read/Write in ‘Terminal’
sudo spctl --master-disable
sudo mount -uw NOTE: Even if this Fails : The overall process can work
sudo killall Finder
STAGE 4 : Use ’Terminal’ to copy extension into directory (as copying with Finder will not work properly for kext files)
sudo cp -R redrocketx.kext /Library/Extensions
STAGE 5 : Repair permissions. Rebuild permissions in ‘Terminal’
sudo chown -v -R root:wheel /System/Library/Extensions
sudo touch /System/Library/Extensions
sudo chmod -v -R 755 /Library/Extensions
sudo chown -v -R root:wheel /Library/Extensions
sudo touch /Library/Extensions
sudo kextcache -i /
STAGE 6 : Reboot machine
With any luck at this point - this might be all that is needed to RocketX driver working in Catalina.
=============================
Reference information (1) Main script details on installing Kexts on Catalina gleaned from:
https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/g...talina.268964/
Reference information (2): Location of 3rd party Kext files.
I used finder on my own Mac Pro 2013 running Catalina & RRX.
Reference information (3): I have checked the ownership of all files in /System/Library/Extensions on my machine to confirm they are all owned by ‘root:wheel’ (as detailed on the tonymacx86 site ref 1)
AJ
Quite believable, actually. Rocket-X has been EOL for quite awhile and is not supported in Catalina. Apple’s abandonment of OpenCL has meant a lot of rework on the GPU compute side. If you can’t wait for the Metal port, you need a modern nvidia card on windows to go fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
When you would have avoided the $24k Mac Pro and went for a $14k threadripper workstation with 2 RTX Titans on Windows or Linux you would be waiting for the release of a 12k red camera to put some pressure on the workstation, while still being able to use the rocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
CPU: AMD Threadripper 3990X 2.9 GHz 64-Core Processor ($3899.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: NZXT Kraken X73 73.11 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($171.48 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte TRX40 AORUS XTREME XL ATX sTRX4 Motherboard ($849.00 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 256 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($1199.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($148.93 @ Amazon)
Storage: Sabrent Rocket 4 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($849.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Sabrent Rocket 4 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($849.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: NVIDIA TITAN RTX 24 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($2499.98 @ Amazon)
Video Card: NVIDIA TITAN RTX 24 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($2499.98 @ Amazon)
Case: Corsair 750D ATX Full Tower Case ($159.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA T2 1600 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($459.99 @ B&H)
Total: $13589.31
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
AJ, that worked[1]!! I hope the RED team takes note and allows those of us with sunk RR-X costs to continue to use the RR-X until something better[2] comes along. Now at least I'm back to where I was performance-wise before Catalina upended everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony Newman
[1] Not all of the steps worked: I could not change the root (/System) filesystem to read/write, but enough of the steps worked that I could install the kext and now Red Cine X sees my RR-X, which makes me happy.
[2] The 2019 Mac Pro, as many have pointed out, is OK for R3D *if* using FCP-X. But it's not Insanely Great when it comes to using Resolve, and as some are keen to point out, its value-for-money is absurd. If and when Radeon GPUs can offer the kind of debayering performance that nVidea offers on Windows, and/or one can order a machine with CPU performance like AMD's relatively recent Threadrippers, it just seems morally wrong to reward Apple with revenues they simply do not deserve.
Michael,
You've just made my day - awesome news!
AJ
"it just seems morally wrong to reward Apple with revenues they simply do not deserve."Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann
Really? The new Mac Pro 2019 increased my ALEXA renders by 450%, with a 60fps increased just from the Apple Afterburner alone. PHANTOM render speeds increased by 900% with the Mac Pro. The RED render speeds dropped by 20%. Something tells me Apple isn't the problem here.
That $24,000 isn't exactly accurate. My Mac Pro was actually $15,000ish. I also spent another $2,000 on third party RAM that was arguably overkill. My SSD based RAID cost $6,500. Would love to know if that Windows machine you spec'd out can do 248fps ALEXA render speeds without an Apple Afterburner card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misha Engel
Imagine how much they would have sped up if you were on a high end workstation! Note you’re comparing your render speeds to a 10 year old machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
I have a Mac Pro and I like it for rare instances when OSX is required, but using the right tool for the job is generally the best approach in the professional world.
Correct, and ProRes is the 90% codec of choice for high-end film production, so a Mac Pro with an Afterburner card is probably the right tool for the job. The jobs I do that use RED cameras are always Directors that own the camera themselves. Just did a burger chain job for the video on their menu boards and we had stereotypical RED issues all day long related to glitches and weird color science. For example, the pink drink was showing up as orange in the RED and I had to isolate and color correct in Resolve. Also panicked the client whenever we played back slow-mo from camera because all the highlights turned into pink orbs. To my knowledge, ALEXA/VENICE/Phantom do not do these things. Had to Google the pink orb thing and found people talking about this issue going on 3 years and RED still hasn't fixed it. There was a discussion at the end of the job on what to use next time and it sounded like they may try Alexa next time. If they have the money, they go for ALEXA.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Meyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
Why aren’t you recording ProRes on your Red shoots, if that is what you prefer to use?
Also, how would I export ProRes files out of Resolve on a Windows machine? I thought it wasn't possible except in Adobe products and Scratch, which doesn't work for me. DPs know and like Resolve, and 90% of post houses request ProRes dailies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misha Engel
You can record them in-camera or use RCX. You could even install an nVidia card in your Mac Pro and boot into windows to access CUDA if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
Lots of ways to get faster until Metal support is up to snuff.
It's not what I prefer, it's what a large majority of professional post houses request for dailies on each job. We typically use the native format of the camera, whether it's Phantom's Cine, Venice's X-OCN, RED's REDRAW and for Alexa it's mostly ProRes4444 or ARRIRAW on big-budget shoots. Shooting 8k ProRes4444 is not feasible on the RED system.
You do you, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
I usually shoot both r3d and prores at once.
248 fps for full-HD/2k? and what kind of ProRes?, to be honest I have no idea. What it can do is ~280 fps 4.6k BRAW at 3:1 (CPU limited) and so can the cheaper $2k cheaper 3970x (stock settings).Quote:
Originally Posted by gillianseed
The biggest advantage of the workstation compared to the Mac Pro is that it can handle every current codec and resolution in realtime for a fraction of the price.
Our current systems (3950x) can only do ~180 fps 4.6k BRAW at 3:1 (the max we need at that resolution is 120 fps, the camera can't shoot more fps at that resolution).
We often use multiple bodies from different manufacturers on jobs. Did an AT&T spot that used two RED Heliums, an Alexa65, and Sony smaller prosumer cameras. Rebooting my entire system every other camera reload to change operating systems would be horribly inefficient, not to mention look unprofessional. Also cannot make ProRes files in Resolve on a Windows machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Meyer