???

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Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley

Pay attention my friends, RED's revolution is NOT it's price point, I don't know how many times we need to go through this... It's the camera and the company that is the revolution. The price is nice, but to many people, $20,000 will still be far beyond "cheap".. And I am glad it is.
Jay

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Jay, from your own posts, where you were debating which ENG camera to get while waiting for the red, you were mentioning price as a main factor. You're telling me that if Red was double the price you'd buy it? If that's the case, you should buy #126 and get shooting.
And "I don't know how many times we have to go through this"? What is this, Jay A. Kelley School for the Informed? It's not kind to be snide dude.

The camera is a revolution MAINLY because of it's price point. It's not the first 4K camera. What makes it so great compared to Dalsa, Genesis, D20, and F23, other than compact size and weight, and compression rates for data? What's the first thing that people say. Is it, "wow incredible images from the Red Camera", or do they say, "wow incredible images from this camera for less than 30K!" That's what pulled you in the door isn't it? Or do you spend as much time online discussing Dalsa, Genesis, D20 and the F23 on their respective forums?
And frankly, if you think the machining of those arri parts for your new MB costs thousands of dollars, and the markup that Arri and Chrosziel apply are reasonable, I can tell you as the son of a master machinist and mechanical engineer who learned his craft in Germany, your dreaming, and it ain't in red 4k. Those prices are totally through the roof.
So those comments are right on the money. And yours aren't.

EDIT: and as far as the $1500 mattebox goes, design flaws are a totally different kettle of fish. Noone buys stuff that doesn't fit, regardless of the price.

Agreed...they get the prices because people are willing to pay it right now. Part of the reason the industry does not want RED to succeed is it will drive down the margins.

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Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley

How many of you actually believe these companies are making these things and simply marking them up through the roof for "fun"? That does not serve them, or you. If they make it too expensive, you won't buy and they go out of business. If they make it too cheap, they do not cover costs and go out of business.

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Is this just being contrarian? Nobody likes high prices, no matter what the justification - and it only really makes history when prices get slashed. Ford was selling more cars than ever when it abruptly dropped the price of the Model-T from $900 to $300. The rest was... history.

They aren't through the roof if you only sell 400 of them a year.

It's just that high end cinema gear hasn't had a market to sell in volume to. Jim is creating a volume market for cinema gear much like what exists for still cameras.

If the RED and plethora of 35mm adapters (remember those things that were all the rage right when RED announced they existed) hadn't come along there wouldn't be the massive spike in matte box, support, steadicam and 4k cameras.

The act of putting 8,000 top of the line cameras out into the world needing PL lenses and support gear has created the demand necessary to sell at a lower rate.

Jim's creating his own customer base from thin air. Everybody is going to see an increase in sales volume. And everybody's prices are going to drop to some extent (except for used gear). But Jim has the advantage of knowing exactly when and in what quantity the market is going to grow by because he's the OPEC of cinema gear demand at this point.

It's funny: some other high-end companies sell gear über expensive because they don't sell a lot, but they don't sell a lot, because they sell über expensive (and okay, there aren't as much people shooting 35mm in their spare time, compared to the still photography market, agreed, but still).

Jim sells cheap because he knows how to do it cheap (I've heard about Oakley's famous way of machining things and such), but also because he knows there will be lots of sales if the price is pretty low.
So he sells a lot, because his price is low.

Nice circle, but for the consumer (or professional buyer), if quality of the second is roughly the same as the first, the second is much better for the buyer.

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Originally Posted by Evolve

Those prices are totally through the roof.
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Those prices may be thru the roof for you!
Maybe you're a part of the good enough crowd. Nothing wrong there. Just don't slam people that want more. They're (Arri kit) beautifully made for professionals who know why they buy it. Beautiful item with no hype, no bugs, works so smooth, won't fail and will last forever.

Cheers,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley

Pay attention my friends, RED's revolution is NOT it's price point, I don't know how many times we need to go through this... It's the camera and the company that is the revolution. The price is nice, but to many people, $20,000 will still be far beyond "cheap".. And I am glad it is.

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I think you may have to go through this a lot of times Jay, because I reckon you are wrong. The MOST revolutionary aspect IS the price point, Reds pricing is redefining the market.

M

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Originally Posted by Martin

I think you may have to go through this a lot of times Jay, because I reckon you are wrong. The MOST revolutionary aspect IS the price point, Reds pricing is redefining the market.

M

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Hey Martin,

I really don't think so. The reason is that I have seen many items that come in at a lower price point, BUT they are poorly done by a 2nd rate company. So nothing happens.

RED's prices are cool, but what closes the deal is the product and the company behind it.

Perhaps it would be better if I/we said there was no one aspect that makes this camera revolutionary, rather their successful use of all the elements we've brought up combined.

As for me and my price posts.. Guys, I am not rich.. I cannot afford some things that are sold, this is frustrating, and maddening, but I don't blame the company for it.. I simply pick something cheaper, or go out and make more money.

I think the real issue here may not be that people cannot afford things, but they question if the item is worth the price!

Perhaps many of you simply think the Vocas is not worth $4000.

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evolve

Jay, from your own posts, where you were debating which ENG camera to get while waiting for the red, you were mentioning price as a main factor. You're telling me that if Red was double the price you'd buy it? If that's the case, you should buy #126 and get shooting.
And "I don't know how many times we have to go through this"? What is this, Jay A. Kelley School for the Informed? It's not kind to be snide dude.

The camera is a revolution MAINLY because of it's price point. It's not the first 4K camera. What makes it so great compared to Dalsa, Genesis, D20, and F23, other than compact size and weight, and compression rates for data? What's the first thing that people say. Is it, "wow incredible images from the Red Camera", or do they say, "wow incredible images from this camera for less than 30K!" That's what pulled you in the door isn't it? Or do you spend as much time online discussing Dalsa, Genesis, D20 and the F23 on their respective forums?
And frankly, if you think the machining of those arri parts for your new MB costs thousands of dollars, and the markup that Arri and Chrosziel apply are reasonable, I can tell you as the son of a master machinist and mechanical engineer who learned his craft in Germany, your dreaming, and it ain't in red 4k. Those prices are totally through the roof.
So those comments are right on the money. And yours aren't.

EDIT: and as far as the $1500 mattebox goes, design flaws are a totally different kettle of fish. Noone buys stuff that doesn't fit, regardless of the price.

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You're right about the snide part... Oops sorry, must have been late and not checking my stuff.

I do not know how to build a mattebox.. And perhaps you are right, perhaps ARRI is a bunch of crooks marking their stuff up through the roof because we simply do not have any other choice.

But....

You cannot proof that. You are guessing. Therefore I choose, (At this time) to believe that perhaps the reason for the cost is due more to the cost of running the company accordding to their model, and providing the customer service they do.

If I am stupid for this, so be it. But I think you and others may be telling yourselves it is cheaper to make this stuff because you want it to be.

The creation of the product may be cheap, but the company that supports it costs a lot of money. And when it comes to owning a company, I DO know what I am talking about.

As for the revolutionary part, I commented on that in the above post. I am coming to understand that it is a number of elements that make the camers revolutionary, not just one. I think the most DISRUPTIVE aspect of RED is it's price, but only as compared to higher end cameras. As for Revolutionary, that's the product and the company.

Had RED been $30,000. I still would have bought one.

Of course, by the time I am done putting it all together, it will be that and more. I think, from a marketing standpoint, being able to say the "Body" is $17,500 was genius.

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay A. Kelley

Therefore I choose, (At this time) to believe that perhaps the reason for the cost is due more to the cost of running the company accordding to their model, and providing the customer service they do.

If I am stupid for this, so be it. But I think you and others may be telling yourselves it is cheaper to make this stuff because you want it to be.

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just go back and re-read Gavin's post, he pretty much nailed it. there's no need to rely on speculation, we know that enough REDs have been ordered to create an entire new market base and a new source of demand that will increase supply and drive down prices and that the RED team has sole access to this information and is designing new products based on a reasonable ROI for the price point.

or did Gavin just say that? (squawk, planet e wants a cracker, squawk....)