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  1. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Spears View Post
    Perplexing, I agree! :) My understanding is that because BVMs ruled the world, that they defined the gamma curve and BT.709 did not need to do so. Things became messy when they died off and plasma's, and other display technologies became the norm. Another interesting issue with the BVM is that they had SMPTE C color primaries, and not BT.709. BT.1886 is based off of the gamma curve that the BVMs exhibited. I believe BT.2020 follows the same display gamma curve as BT.1886. sRGB defined both the display and source gamma from the get go.

    The problem we face today, on the playback side, is that as a viewer we don't know which gamma curve to use when watching a given show. I know that HBO shows are graded on displays calibrated with a 2.2 gamma curve instead of BT.1886s 2.4.

    One thing has not changed as we moved from SD to HD to UHD and that is displays still do not meet system standards. Resolution goes up, but the same technical issues remain. Most of them are on purpose too. :)

    Since this is a skintone thread, I should get on topic. :) One must be careful when evaluating skintones on compressed content. Blu-ray is OK given the high bitrate. Vimeo, YouTube, Apple TV, Netflix, etc... is another matter. To give an example. In the show Covert Affairs, I am always bothered by the blotchy skintones. I have only seen on cable and Apple TV. In both cases the extreme compression is introducing some of it. What happens is the chroma channels for a given block round one way (e.g up) and in the next block round the other (down) in value. This introduces a magenta like blotchiness. I have never seen the source, so I don't know how much is in the source vs. introduced by the compression. We saw this a lot when building one of the HD DVD / Blu-ray encoders. If often requires a lot of bits to fix.
    The color grade on Covert Affairs (and the cinematography) frequently leaves a lot to be desired, and I have seen the show on PS3 download, which uses very reasonable amounts of compression. It's just an ugly show, that often looks cheap and visually dated. That's not Red's fault mind-you.
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  2. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    If you assume that the Dragon is 40% more resolution, 3+ stops of DR and 16 bit color depth... it is probably not a stretch why some anticipate Dragon to be really good.

    Jim
    i thought the EPiC was advertised also 16 bit ...

    g
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  3. #173  
    Senior Member Joseph Coleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Turchi View Post
    i thought the EPiC was advertised also 16 bit ...

    g
    I've always been a bit confused on this point. And I think, unless I missed some information somewhere. Red has never been very clear on what the color depth of the Epic is. From my understanding they use 16bit processing, but it has 12 bit color depth. That would explain why on the Epic MX spec sheet it still shows 12 and 16bit RAW. Even though we never had the choice between the two. Always good to hear that there will be better color precision :)
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  4. #174  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriele Turchi
    i thought the EPiC was advertised also 16 bit ...
    Its my understanding, which could be wrong, is that the M and MX sensors use 12-bit A/Ds while the pipeline after is 16-bit. The Dragon should have a true 16-bit A/D on the sensor.
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  5. #175  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    epic X has a 16bit AD but the pictures are carried in a 12bit container R3D...(never knew if this was a linear container or mapped to extend precision to where it mattered)

    I believe Dragon will allow 16bit all the way...
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  6. #176  
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    Which in retrospect is kind of bogus/hype-inducing-fud -- RED should have just said it's 12bit.... Saying "yeah but it's essentially 16bit" - which is what they've been saying since Epic has been out - is like saying that DSLR 8-bit 420 footage rendered out to Prores or DNxHD is 'essentially 10/12bit 422' because that's the container it's been rendered to for finishing.... Very annoying now that the cards are on the table, especially when people explicitly asked a bunch of times.

    But I digress... I do think that, for the most part, what we've seen of Dragon is very much like MX, just with 3+ more stops (try a static HDRx shot and compare please Tom/Peter/Mark/Whomever-else-has-Dragon-access)... Those extra stops of info would account for quite a bit of difference in the mid-tones (as well as anything else in the image.) I'm kind of excited to see what RG4/RC4 is going to do with Dragon footage... HOPEFULLY some of those improvements actually trickle down to MX, but something tells me trying to retrofit an MX image to behave more like a Dragon image will *not* be that easy... It'll basically take a colourists entire bag of tricks to get them to somewhat match (assuming you're trying to get the MX to look like Dragon and not downgrading the Dragon to look like MX.)
    Last edited by Mike P.; 08-26-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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  7. #177  
    REDuser Sponsor Gunleik Groven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lindsay View Post
    epic X has a 16bit AD but the pictures are carried in a 12bit container R3D...(never know if this was linear or ?..)

    I believe Dragon will allow 16bit all the way...
    To me, this sounds like the most likely description of things. Which I in no way find "bogus"

    The Digibeta used (I think) a 14 bit AD downsampled to an 8 bit 4.2.2, but thus had a lot of good things in its images that I think many HD TV-cams still struggle to replicate.

    We will want more bits in the AD, than we eventually will want for delivery, because the bits have different functions in the different stages of the process, and actually I think noone wants to replicate the DR of nature (say sun vs alley= in an image... at least not without giving us sunglasses to view the images...

    Even if the Dragon is 16-bit half float, and not 16 bit linear (now I am talking about the files), I see no reason to call that bogus...
    And neither have any others called such a solution for deliverables bogus...

    There is also some point where oversampling in precission in aquisition vs delivery borders on "enough"... without trying to specify that.
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  8. #178  
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    Don't get me wrong -- 12bit or 16 bit, I don't think the images REDs create are bogus... but I do think it's kinda weak that every time someone said 'the math says it's actually creating 12bit images', RED almost always chimed in with, 'it's actually, essentially, 16bit -- RED1 was 12bit, though' when that just isn't the case... Again, I point to the DLSR-to-Prores example; no one would say that transcoded DSLR footage is actually 12 or 14bit even though the DSLR's sensor and A/Ds are 14bit and the codec the footy is likely transcoded to is 10-to-12bit... Again, it's a little fuddly, is all I'm saying. Not something to sweat about.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 08-26-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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  9. #179  
    16 bit > 12 bit

    the eye can see it

    I will be glad when Dragon pumps up to 16bit.
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