Thread: Why film will stay the king...

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  1. #131  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W. View Post
    What techniques do you use for re-graining? How do you simulate a Classic Soft (screen on an out of focus image)?

    I am still amazed by the match moving in Minority Report and War of the Worlds. How? How did they do it?
    Re-graining: would you not just do a film-out? Yeah it's not that simple but it would make sense.

    I have seen both of those films but I'm not totally sure what you mean. Do you mean how CGI objects moved in the scene?
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  2. #132  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    Re-graining: would you not just do a film-out? Yeah it's not that simple but it would make sense.

    I have seen both of those films but I'm not totally sure what you mean. Do you mean how CGI objects moved in the scene?
    I meant adding grain to CGI to match film grain for compositing. I've been trying different things from automated match grain plug ins to adjusting grain by eye per channel to overlaying film grain stock to overlaying individual channels of film grain stock and it still too often feels like an "overlay." The film image itself is made up of grain and has a subtly differently look to me.

    Doing a film out is a good idea, I think, for getting a digital project to look more like film, but I was referring specifically to compositing CGI into film. (Or fully CGI shots treated to look like film.)

    Yes, tracking the 3D camera. There's a lot of handheld and steadicam work in those films that looks like it would be very difficult to match move. I found a video about it that answers my question:

    https://vimeo.com/137569797

    I used Syntheyes a bit ten years ago, I taught myself in a couple hours to do a basic track. But what he's doing here is mind-blowing to me still. A lot of those whip pans look untrackable to me. I guess I just need some training.
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  3. #133  
    Even if you work with only 3D tracking for a few years there is still a lot to learn. Most people dont realize how deep into it you can get.
    Messuring your set and having known correlations between your tracking points helps. Having suporting camera angles helps. Having a known lens /camera and lens distorsion helps. Having a lidar scan of the whole scenery helps a huge lot. There is so many things you can do to get things more accurate, open the clip in syntheyes and hit autotrack is not one of them. Hand tracked points that is weighted correctly is the way to go and most people have little understanding how the different points in a scene render into the result depending on thier paralax chsnge.
    Speilberg and such guys for sure have very skilled vfx crew on set that mesure thing down and also the resources to get it done right in post. 3D tracking is pretty much the base for all 3D integration, if not done proper everything else will fail aswell.

    For grain match I dont find it so important, if lightning, colors, textures etcetra is all correct then things tend to bend well. A simple grain match with background or grain remove of the background and then adding a grain over the whole cake to add the clip before and after. But also quite comon to do such procidure for a whole scene if there is a lot of composite shots simply add the same treatment even for the in between straight out of camera shots.

    I usually try to add gray film stock grain with an overlay transfer mode in log space to let the grain land pre grade then I find it to behave more natural, become less noticeble in highlights and surface more in shadows etc. A mixture of flame grain match tools and scans of celuoid noise is what I usually ends up with.
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  4. #134  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Even if you work with only 3D tracking for a few years there is still a lot to learn. Most people dont realize how deep into it you can get.
    Messuring your set and having known correlations between your tracking points helps. Having suporting camera angles helps. Having a known lens /camera and lens distorsion helps. Having a lidar scan of the whole scenery helps a huge lot. There is so many things you can do to get things more accurate, open the clip in syntheyes and hit autotrack is not one of them. Hand tracked points that is weighted correctly is the way to go and most people have little understanding how the different points in a scene render into the result depending on thier paralax chsnge.
    Speilberg and such guys for sure have very skilled vfx crew on set that mesure thing down and also the resources to get it done right in post. 3D tracking is pretty much the base for all 3D integration, if not done proper everything else will fail aswell.

    For grain match I dont find it so important, if lightning, colors, textures etcetra is all correct then things tend to bend well. A simple grain match with background or grain remove of the background and then adding a grain over the whole cake to add the clip before and after. But also quite comon to do such procidure for a whole scene if there is a lot of composite shots simply add the same treatment even for the in between straight out of camera shots.

    I usually try to add gray film stock grain with an overlay transfer mode in log space to let the grain land pre grade then I find it to behave more natural, become less noticeble in highlights and surface more in shadows etc. A mixture of flame grain match tools and scans of celuoid noise is what I usually ends up with.
    Thanks, Bjorn, this is really good information. I am watching some of that guy's work and I don't even know how he does the rotomation with deformation etc.

    Like I don't even know what application you would use.

    https://vimeo.com/mattmerk

    Truly another world from the one I work in. Is he building meshes with IK rigs and animating over by hand? Or is there a way to correlate tracking markers with points in a deformable mesh?

    How did you know my Syntheyes workflow? (Well, it works 8 times out of 10.) Do you find Syntheyes to be the best option for the price or is PF Track better for the money?

    Ah okay that makes sense with grain. Do you use Cinegrain or what grain pack? I find their 4k pack to be lacking in color. It's very monochrome and feels like an overlay. Also what do you do for highlights? Film highlights can have texture remaining, which an overlay transfer mode would not retain. I guess luma key then add it in separately? This isn't really a big problem for me just curious what you do on a higher end show. I think my problem is Cinegrain is just too monochrome or at least the old pack I was using is.

    Surprised to learn entire scenes are degrained/regrained on the higher end stuff. I always felt like a hack doing that.
    Last edited by Matt W.; 02-03-2020 at 03:45 PM.
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  5. #135  
    Senior Member Jeffery Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Sweeney View Post
    10 years ago I was told it was dead for sure.
    I didn't listen either.
    Maybe next year!
    I think it's movies as an art form that's dead

    Film nowadays is about self-indulgent, over-hyped/commercialized, theater as a spectacle

    I don't believe that film help create better content or experience for theatergoers
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  6. #136  
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    Linus Sandgren’s film masterclass in April ASC magazine offers a lot of insights
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