RED refunds and fine print....

[Michael Brennan]

Is the below clause from RED an unusual sales clause for US manufacturers?

Also if a RED owner is unhappy about the stability of the camera in respect to bugs and software recording glitches, is there a returns clause to cover this?
Lets say you wait for build 16, buy the camera but six months later it still has faults.
Will RED refund your bread?

As I see it and please correct me if I'm wrong, with no gaurantee that the camera will deliver any particular specification where does this leave the buyer in the legal sense if their is a differenc of opinion between what is and isnt industry standard or whatever other method of establishing is the camera is "fit for purpose"?



Mike Brennan
UK



"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

[Dexter Gregoire]

What I have found after just receiving my camera is that it requires alot of discipline, organization and a whole lot more things to make a movie on Low/No budget. I could have used the money from purchasing RED in different ways, like to paydown my mortgage, but instead I need to fullfill my dream. There are so many choices in life. I can choose to stick with a 9-5 job till I'm 65 and retire and enjoy life that way. To each his own.

One of my biggest fears is to grow old, sit in a rocking chair and realize that I could have but didn't. I'm not that old yet.

There is one thing I realized and that is--- Without faith, nothing is possible.

I didn't read the fine print like you did. I looked at the images that were posted by the +100 people who posted. I read what the well respected individuals who used the camera had to say and I weighted their opinions. I learned from the people who posted on REDUSER.net about workflow, camera settings, etc...

And I came to the conclusion, If they can do it, I can too. Just do like they do! It only requires a little bit of faith.

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah I think if you're sifting through the fine print for the exact percentage of performance you expect out of a piece of gear you're probably in the wrong business. Maybe get a sports car instead- costs about the same...

Noah

[Michael Brennan]

Yeah I think if you're sifting through the fine print for the exact percentage of performance you expect out of a piece of gear you're probably in the wrong business. Maybe get a sports car instead- costs about the same...

Noah

You are jumping to conclusions!

To suggest that I'm in the wrong business because I want to check out a camera guarantee is absurd!
I first started operating electronic cameras for a living in 1981 and have been freelance since 1983.

I'm primarily in business to pay the mortgage then have fun rather than the other way around.
Both can be severely dampened by not knowing where liability lies if something goes wrong or can't be fixed.
Given REDs development history this is not an outrageous concept to contemplate for the next 18 months or so...

I ask the question based on a terrible experience with Sony where the camera (f900) had ongoing issues in 2003 where I eventually couldn't use the camera for fun or business.(couldn't even cross hire it as others like me thought it wasn't reliable)

That's why I've ordered two REDs but am still very interested in the return policy as per original question.

Re your last comment, which I find impertinent, I sold my sports car, a lovely Bristol Beaufighter to help finance my HD kit!


Mike Brennan

[Michael Brennan]

There is one thing I realized and that is--- Without faith, nothing is possible...

And I came to the conclusion, If they can do it, I can too. Just do like they do! It only requires a little bit of faith.

Well I hope you will be rocking with RED into your 70's:)
I too have had "faith" in new technology a new way of doing things.

For example I was first to use minicams in UK, first to import Stanton crane into UK first freelancer in Europe to buy a f900.

I have less faith in RED than any of the above, but thats just me.

So have faith, take a gamble, but doesn't mean that you can't also be aware of watching your contracts or gaurantees, especially if some of your work involves other people spending money on what is in front of your camera.


Mike Brennan

[Vladimir Eugene]

Hi Mike,

I ordered and received one of the first hundred cameras. My camera had a small kink. It was resolved quickly. I was content. After I read and experienced the cold issue, and saw they were going to make the future cameras better in the sense of cold/heat and other things lens mount for one- I was a bit disappointed- I felt that had I just waited a bit I could of picked up one of the improved cameras.

To my surprise RED offered to replace all of our cameras- the original first 100 for free. I realized they are loyal to their customers.

If you have a problem with one or both of your RED cams you have on order, I'm sure tech support will be more than happy to help.

If you send them a legal notice, notify that you know your rights, I'm guessing they will point you towards that sentence you brought up.

my 2 cents

Vladimir Eugene

[Marc Berger]

"All Red ONE camera bodies are redeemable for a full $17,500 credit toward EPIC..."
For me a very expanded kind of guarantee.
Cheers
Marc

[Joel Kaye]

"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

Probably typical, but the reality is that if a defective RED killed somebody RED would get sued and probably be held liable. There are a lot of clauses in contracts that aren't enforceable. Consult your legal representative.

[donatello b]

from what i recall ... once you receive your Red you have X days ( 10 maybe 15??) days to return it for a full refund ( with no more then X hrs on it) ...after that i beleive there's a 30% restocking fee ....
so i would have to say 6 months is not going ot get a full refund ..
some of the return within X days could vary depending on the problems you're having ...Red has all this info on the web site ...

seems that as far as 10. INDEMNIFICATION .. that is why you buy production insurance ...
if you rent out your camera/equipment you would include something like #10 in your rental agreement to protect your ASSets ...

[Finner]

Jim and others would never call me a faboy. That said, I can attest that everything I have seen or heard about reds customer service is that it is by far the best in the industry bar none.

Although there are some things I have concern of for the camera, service and commitment to customers by red is definately not one of them.