RED refunds and fine print....

[Ed Blythe]

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

OR spend more money for equivalent technology or lesser technology together with a) the reliability that they bring and b) the loss of modular capabilities of a system that is always changing and (hopefully!) improving.

Seems to me that a necessary trade-off for the camera - not just for the price, but as an evolving thing - is that there will be options/components that work better in some situations than others at different points in time.

Some say that film is an unstable capture medium - but you take the risk that there's no leaks in the mag and that the loader won't open the wrong can.

Which is not to falsely paraphrase you, Mike. Agreed that the above mantra is very risky (and there are probably a lot of fans jumping in without thinking it through). But there's risks worth taking and risks that aren't. Don't know whether you're going to find a customer returns policy that is going to reach as far as you want it to. The camera functions well in some conditions, not so well in others. Maybe you shoot perfectly happily for a few months then your next film has lots of police sirens and gunshots. Should you be able to return it now that it doesn't meet your next set of requirements, even though you knew about the rolling shutter issues going in? (Again, not to misquote you - I assume you are thinking more about unknown issues coming to light which prove fatal (which I think is not that likely, but agree that it's still possible)).

[Finner]

Digital FX ,

it is more than a $17k camera if you have to equip with good lenses and have a second unit.

I don't trade value for money for reliability in my buiness plan UNLESS the client is totally on board with the new technology.

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

Please dont assume what I know and dont know about the camera.

My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!

Why should I wait for a year just because I fear I wont get my money back if the camera is unreliable? If the camera is for sale then consumer rights apply.

I am heartened that pros are taking risks but I dont see why we cant agree on a more solid refund plan....


Mike Brennan

Seems fairly obvious that the red one is not a good choice for you. I have shot with the F23 and it is very good. I would suggest you purchase that camera instead. Difficult customers cost a bussiness much more then they make off them. If I was red I would run as far away from you as possible.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

it is more than a $17k camera if you have to equip with good lenses and have a second unit.

Cost is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to look at RED as about a $20K camera. You will want the CF module and an ARRI baseplate and a few other bits and pieces. That makes the camera itself come in around $20K, not including taxes and whatnot that vary from one region and purchase situation to another.

Factoring lenses, second units, etc.. Those are not camera specific considerations. All cameras that fall into this classification (35mm PL mount), whether they be digital or film, require the use of interchangeable lenses. You will incur this cost no matter what camera you acquire to fit the need of a 35mm PL system. If you choose, you can opt for Nikon or other lens options on RED, still doesn't change the situation though.

The cost of a complete setup as you may need could vary... But the camera itself will cost about $20K. Some people already have lenses, support systems, etc.. They only need to buy a $20K camera to drop into their established setups. If you're finding that you need to spend $60K to get a RED setup working the way you would like, then it means you're probably just starting out with buying all your own equipment. Is that a wise decision? Only you can answer that, it's your business.

I don't trade value for money for reliability in my buiness plan UNLESS the client is totally on board with the new technology.

It seems like you and your client need to decide if RED is the right tool for the job. Time to rent one and see what's up.

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

No, the mantra here is that it's cheap and there are limitations. Jim just gave us an entire world of possibility, to expect the rest of the universe is a bit unreasonable.

Problems, bugs, workflow issues are all not acceptable in the end. But the cameras are still in beta, the workflow is in beta and incomplete. This is why RED has their policy of allowing reservation holders to indefinitely delay their purchase. If the camera and workflow don't fit your needs right now, you can wait until they do before you buy.

My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!

A path already exists, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. And I find it unlikely that someone with a non-defective camera would wish to return it anyway, makes more sense to sell it within the current market.

Why should I wait for a year just because I fear I wont get my money back if the camera is unreliable? If the camera is for sale then consumer rights apply.

And what consumer rights would those be? The current workflow situation with the camera is hardly a secret, if the camera isn't ready for your needs don't buy it. This is not consumer hardware, it is professional hardware. And for what it's worth, there are several workflows and means to use this camera right now. What many are waiting on are not so much a way to work with the camera, but a way to do it with lower cost tools they already own or in a more integrated workflow setup.

I am heartened that pros are taking risks but I dont see why we cant agree on a more solid refund plan....

What is it that you're looking for? Most of the legal junk you're pouring over in RED's policies are standard business fare. Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. They already have a return policy in place.. It's simple, if you're unhappy you can send your camera back. Yes, there are restrictions such as less than 25 hours on the camera. Not unusual here. Otherwise they would have people buying a couple cameras, shooting a couple projects, maybe even a feature and then simply returning them. Ah, nearly free camera rental, eh?

[laguun]

There are thousands of waiting red-customerr who would take a red any second, many of them offering much more money to get a red -now- than buying a red costs.

therefore, the topic is pretty hypothetical - if you think you need a better or different camera then you should make some golddollares or euros by selling it. returning it to red would reduce your profit as of now.

also, if you want to try out the camera before buying, renting would be the best way to do so.

to keep prices for buyers low, i would welcome it if red doesnt allow returns basing on delivered cameras. decide before you pay. test before you order.

p.s.
what was the issue which was blocking your 900? we bought the 750 the moment it came out and never had any issues in the last 5 years.

[Michael Brennan]

To answer some of the off topic comments.
I know the current guild is buggy. I know its beta. I didn't get an order in early for this reason.

With lots of RED cameras out there we have to be in the game and for some buying kit rather than renting is a preffered business plan.


Sure there are plenty of reservation holders who will buy a used RED now, but my post refers to a situation in 12 months time.
What if RED (including post software) is still unstable and by then there are 4000 buggy cameras in use.


The cost of equipping for 35mm digital format to my liking is indeed more than just the cost of the camera for someone like me without many 35mm lenses and accessories. ie my existing 4x4 filters can't be used with the new zoom. So the $$ risk is not low.

Back on topic.
Perhaps a criteria is that any persistent camera fault where you can lose a shot, despite following manufacturers instructions to a letter is a sound legal reason to return a camera.


The thread is about returning a camera in a years time, if this kind of thing is happening rather than to rely on an "ebay warranty".

Thanks for the advice on if I am suited or not suited to shooting with RED.
There is always something to learn, especially about RED and RED users, even for someone like me who has been demoing and shooting HD since Cannes 2001 and pretty much exclusively shooting commercials and docs with electronic cameras since 1981.




Mike Brennan

[Stuart English]

..it is R&D and engineeering issues that is in question. ...My aphrehension is based on the unknown % chance of numerous others also being unhappy and wanting returns.

Fact is the RED-ONE camera works - and our customers have shot projects from natural history and commercials and feature films, from 2K thru 4K, with and without sound.

Are there any bugs? Yes. Is there a workflow ? Yes. Is this camera doing combinations of things that no other camera/recorder in the world can do? Yes.

So the question ultimately comes down to - are the small number of bugs remaining, and the existing workflow options acceptable to you? That's your call.

[Mike Gifford]

Digital FX ,



My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!




Mike Brennan

Mike

as a subscriber to High Definition magazine of which you are the editor, I would never dispute your knowledge or experience with HD cameras.

I have no doubt that articles about RED help sell your magazine - and I am curious that the last time you ran a largely negative article about RED in High Definition magazine, it followed some active and probing posting from yourself on Reduser.

I look forward to the next issue!

[Michael Brennan]

Fact is the RED-ONE camera works - and our customers have shot projects from natural history and commercials and feature films, from 2K thru 4K, with and without sound.

Are there any bugs? Yes. Is there a workflow ? Yes. Is this camera doing combinations of things that no other camera/recorder in the world can do? Yes.

So the question ultimately comes down to - are the small number of bugs remaining, and the existing workflow options acceptable to you? That's your call.

Yes camera looks like it is being debugged faster than post software.

After build 16 I'd hope to take some responsibility for reccomending a shoot and post on RED. As it stands now it would be the clients responsibility.

If you have every faith that the system will be reliable in a year why not say that you will honour industry standard levels of reliability for electronic cameras? No one is expecting a 100% bug free camera and post workflow.


Mike Brennan

[donatello b]

"I doubt if many REDusers have production insurance for casual projects and self shooting."

you might already be insured and you do not know it ... i shoot for fun ... my home insurance covers equipment , rentals , liability - as of now i have no special film/video equipment added to normal home policy ... the only catch is they do NOT cover me if i use the equipment for business or if i rent out camera or the project i'm doing has intent to make $$ ... i've rented couple hundred K by the time you add grip truck , lens etc ... i've had them issue insurance liability certificate so i could shoot at oakland museum, parks in berkeley etc = all at no extra charge - covered under home owners insurance ...they also cover persons ( including actors) that are helping and that includes if i pay them - as long as you do not promise points, profits , any kind of intent to make $$ ....
so if it's your personal (fun) project and you have no intent to make $$ check with your insurance agent to see if your current policy covers you ...

[Colin C]

Fair call. How is the unboxing experience going for you Chosei?

How is Spike doing?