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  1. #1 ACES workflow tested and verified? 
    Hi.I'm currently learning ACES, Not talking about generalities but in this forum,Red only.Have hard time to find reliable infos in internet on Aces with Red.Most of the "info" have read are debates that goNowhere, guessings and ultimatly desinformation.Do you have links with people who know what they are doing?Don't get me wrong, I don't bark on internet, Because on the net, everybody opinates but littleActually know, and that's just the way it is.just thatI'm learning the job in this industry and try to see who'sGot it right and who I can listen to.The only reliable info I have so far (wich is important) isA Graeme post saying: no IDT with Red.Elsewhere it's a mess.If you have links or rock solid imputs on that topic,Please post.Many thanks.
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  2.   Click here to go to the next RED TEAM post in this thread.
    Yeah, just make sure whatever is decoding the R3D is using the SDK properly to get out the half-float ACES data. You can always confirm that by using REDCine-X to make and EXR and checking it looks the same as whatever app you're using is creating. If that's all good and checked, then everything follows through from that point just fine.

    Graeme - 8k Digital Cinema Camera
    Science enables stories. Stories drive science
    IPP2, Image Processing, Colour Science and Demosaic Algorithms
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  3. #3  
    Many thanks Graeme. It's a great idea.
    I wanted to avoid the EXR route but actually it's worth
    Using it to see if things are on track.
    So there is always a reliable material to refer to.
    Didn't thought about that and this is really usefull!
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Dec 2006
    San Diego, CA
    Props to Fred for asking questions. Props to Graeme for stepping in to help Fred. Ironically, it's often the new recruits who do their research who end up with the smoothest experiences in RED post operations. It's often the old dogs who try and push R3Ds down a pipe poorly suited to the task, then blame RED when it's a PITA.

    This is RedUser at it's best.

    Cheers- #19
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Nick Pasquariello's Avatar
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    Dec 2010
    Providence, RI
    ACES is going to take a while for everyone to fully wrap their heads around. Perhaps we could get a good article up on that has some best-practices and overview straight from the horse's mouth? Would cut down a lot of misinformation and arguments on set and in post, I can assure you.
    Icarus Rex Productions
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  6. #6  
    Well, or I am crazy and it's actually too simple, or people indeed like to
    Complicate everything.

    ...ok, so far I'm just testing, right? So don't consider me reliable, but I
    Got consistent results using or the
    EXR from RCX, or directly the R3d,
    In both Scratch or Fusion.
    From what I'm seeing, things could not be more simple and my exr match the r3d.
    Logically, if I enable in the read node the Aces (reading the r3d),
    I loose gamma settings wich is logical and normal and the inmediate result is exactly the same image as an EXR generated
    By RCX. Not similar but absolutly the same.

    Then, if I apply a gamut node to perform a display transform to rec709, in Fusion, I got the exact same image in Scratch with the dual view in rec709 colorspace enabled. Again, not similar but the exact same.
    Bottom line, from EXR rcx export, or directly R3Ds in Fusion and Scratch, the image remains exactly the same in Aces.

    I don't see any weired thing or complicated hidden secret from Red team and all the noise
    I read in internet puzzles me. It couldn't be simplier.

    But hey...maybe I got it all wrong...
    Or maybe not?

    Is it that simple?
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  7. #7  
    ...Maybe should we demystify ACES?
    And take it relax.

    After all, it's just a colorspace like any other.
    The image that display both Fusion and Scratch are 100% identical, using
    Different methods, and similar to linear Raw when canceling all curves but with a different mapping, (sort of greenish).

    True that I've been trying to push values and it's quite amazing because it seems impossible to clip. What a room!
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  8. #8  
    RED TEAM Stacey Spears's Avatar
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    Sep 2007
    Sammamish, WA
    I would not say ACES is like any other color space. It moves from the traditional perceptual display referred to a linear scene referred. Then again, so many don't grasp display referred, which is why we have so much misunderstanding when it comes to the word gamma. :)

    Not everything should be done in linear light. e.g. The saturation control is a great example. REDCINE-X Pro has two saturation controls. One that is done in linear light, which is the SDK control and one that is done in perceptual (gamma corrected space). You want to use the perceptual saturation control. So don't use the saturation on the RED settings page. Here is a good thread on Reduser about this very issue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin Greenwalt
    If it's a photographic process it should be done in linear light. So that would be exposure, compositing, blending, additive operations etc. Gamma corrected space should be for subjective adjustments such as curve adjustments, saturation, Hue shifts and other "looks".

    Another way to think about it is to ask yourself if there is an optical equivalent (e.g. grad filter, vignette, print lights, diffusion, flares, defocus/blur, CTB, etc) if you can think of an optical equivalent it's a linear operation. If it doesn't have an optical equivalent (for instance there is no "curves" 4"x4" filter or an "increase saturation" by schneider.)
    I am a fan of the idea of ACES. I would recommend everyone check out Poynton's classes on as well.
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  9. #9  
    I agree Stacey. I wrote "like any other colorspace" in the sense of demystifying a bit but you're right, ACES is a different animal to what we are used to.
    Probably not as complicated nor so simple
    But we'll end to get familiar with.

    Great interesting link on linear/post saturation. Thanks.

    As I said, I'm learning the job and still a lot to understand.
    I got the sensation that the all story consists in not messing with the displays

    I like to strip things (and not only girls) because they reveal how things are done.
    I'm thinking for ex of Alexa: if we take a log
    Arriraw and change the colorspace from raw level to rec709, we got image A.
    Now, if we use an official Lut from Arri lut
    Generator and instead of applying the transform from the SDK, we apply the Lut
    Above the log image we got image B.
    And image A and B are absolutly identical.
    Tested and verify. You can put those 2 images on layers and turn on-off, they are the very same. So things comes from logical maths if I might say.

    Engineers (wich I'm not) are generally not
    Extravagant people but hard core logical
    Maths and what they do is driven by logic.
    Once we got it, it should be simple.

    In a way, this ACES reminds me a bit of the RLF wich is exactly Cineon standart and therefore logical that Red didn't provide any "official lut". Arii being a different curve
    They had to.

    The problem I see with Aces are the displays.
    My workstation displays are 10bit but they
    Aren't suitable for handeling such a huge color range. Unless I don't bake the output
    To a colorspace those monitors allow,
    It's pointless because grading is dependant to the performances of our displays, but that's not just Aces.

    So far, I've been testing with Red and Arri. In both cases the starting point image for
    Grading is way richer and maleable than
    Any other colorspace I knew.
    Yes, we loose Raw but IMO it's worth.
    I'am sill very clumpsy on the process,
    Like a kid in legoland. Hope we'll get more and more imputs with time.
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Jun 2007
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Found this about ACES.

    Might be good for the ones in the dark (like myself)

    If I'm going to grade and master an ACES master file of a movie, how would I do that with R3Ds using Resolve?
    Should I use the R3Ds directly in Resolve together with a ACES colorspace or should I render out to ACES files before grading? How do I handle VFX? If I render out DPXs in 4K for work in let's say After Effects, how do that transform into ACES when going back to the grade?
    The VFX and CGI part always confuses me since we need to work with files that aren't too heavy.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
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