Cinema camera or Video camera?

[Jim Exton]

A little instructional tape or clip put up on Red.com, like you did with the myth buster one, would be really helpful.

Glad to hear build 16 helps, but it sounds like there is still further instruction needed.

Hopefully you all or someone else will get to that pretty quickly once build 16 is out.

[Mark Crabtree]

I'm buying a preset lens. Preset iris. Preset focus. Fool proof!
It's what we've all been hoping and praying for, true point and shoot technology. No need to look at histograms or learn how to use a complicated digital readout light meter. Your choice of Pinhole or Bell & Howell optics. PM me for group buy info.

[I Bloom]

Jim,

Can you tell me about the wavelette compression you're doing & where it is introduced in the image chain? I'm wondering if this is connected to DNR? Although I imagine its after the AD conversion.

If I could attempt to answer.

AFAIK the compression is the last step before storage, after some digital signal processing and prior to debayering (which as we know happens in post on Red.)

Wavelet compression is not connected to DNR in the sense that you aren't loosing any bit depth, nor are you changing the values in the image signal.

However it does affect subjective DNR in the sense that random noise cannot be compressed. So your noise floor "looks different" when it has been compressed, the grain is not as tight. It's "clumpy". If you think this texture is unattractive you might be less apt to let your image fall into the noise floor. So your effective DNR is reduced.

Who knows how build 16 works, but here is a question: If noise can't be compressed, and any compression will necessarily change the character of the noise, than perhaps it makes sense to change the character of the noise first ourselves, prior to compression, so that it compresses in a more attractive way.

We all have our theories.

IBloom

[conrad gaunt]

10bit Log or Gamma encode from a 12bit source does indeed loose you some code value precision. However, it does so from the brightest stops where you have an over-abundance of code values, and hence, if done correctly, does not diminish the image quality in any meaningful way.

Graeme

Understood, but it would be nice to not have to do any kind of `first lite correction` before outputting from RC, I`m simply going to convert the log back into its non-log form so I can manipulate it with other material, so it seems like needless processing which won`t save any disk space in the end. Log may be useful for filmout people etc, but nobody I know.
I`d rather not rely on RC for anything other than decompressing R3Ds, thats not to say that I won`t want to use RC for other things at other times, when its working well. I just want access to the full sensor data that the camera promises. 12bits = max 12stops. 10bits = max 10stops. Like jim says, you can shift/crush/expand colours many ways, so information that seems irrelevant might not end up that way with correct processing. why not have a non-log option, or at least a 12bit log option so we can dig a little deeper.

edit: I should point out that only having 10bit log output won`t be why some people will struggle to grade and lose information as Jim is highlighting.

ps, Can`t wait to see build 16 footage

[Daniel Browning]

Jim, you forgot to share the second half of the lesson: how to crush the shadow detail and sharpen the image into oblivion.

[Matthew Verkler]

Jim, you forgot to share the second half of the lesson: how to crush the shadow detail and sharpen the image into oblivion.

Yes, over-sharpening is key to achieving that much sought after "video look". I have successfully turned boring Red shots into much superior "digital video" with the techniques Jim has outlined, coupled with copious amounts of sharpening, or, as I like to call it, "enhancement".

Thanks Jim, for helping everyone figure out how to match the footage we have become used to!

[Jannard]

Jim, you forgot to share the second half of the lesson: how to crush the shadow detail and sharpen the image into oblivion.

That's next week... :-)

Actually, this clipped highlight thing is the single biggest issue facing RED ONE users. If it was all about the camera, that would be one thing. But so much footage is "reduced in quality" during grading that it deserves most of our attention. Again, it is the primary benefit of Build 16.

Jim

[10s]

This RED experience is a learning curve for everyone. On top of this, there are the skeptics, and then there's actual technological challenges making this even more complicated. Sometimes the cutting edge really hurts!

Maybe build 16 will solve many issues but it seems to me that the best way to get the word out and reset everyone's learning curve is a great video via DVD & WEB on how the whole system works. This will cut down on all the chaos, chatter and skeptics who are having a hey-day with poor operator execution, and blaming it on the hardware. Of course this takes time, money and it's another project/headache, but isn't it even a bigger headache to introduce new a photographic system and end up having so many get it wrong and spread rumors.

...I do like Mark Crabtree's idea on just settling this once and for all, & getting pin hole cameras! :wacko:

[Jason Ing]

Edit: I reread Jim's preview post and answered my own question. Never mind. :)

[Brandon Fraley]

With film, the tendency is to under expose a negative to keep the shadows from blocking. RED RAW footage is exactly the opposite... which I'm sure has contributed to some difficulties.

did you mean over expose? I'm not sure i understand.